Quickly detecting a fool is invaluable

[Owledge]

I am still in the process of trusting my cynicism as accurate and accepting the speed with which I can often detect a hopeless case, a fool, someone who has a strong resistance to new insights and learning, who may not think what he says.

I like to look at people's motivations, so that is what I usually see very early on, sometimes after one comment, sometimes after one sentence, sometimes after a couple of words.

 

I came upon this picture and it expressed exactly that lesson in its most refined form - instant recognition, maximum avoidance of energy leeching:

 

 

One of my teachers conveyed a lesson I still have trouble with due to its extremism, or maybe it was because he had so much energy that it was OK, or maybe he had it because he followed the rule:

Send 10% energy out, keep 90% in.

I guess the key understanding that helps to follow that rule is that the energy you keep in does not (have to) / should not just sit idly there.

[Earl Grey]

Never argue with idiots, for they will beat you with experience every time.

 

Try to talk sense to a fool and he will call you foolish.

 

To argue is to make both of you look like fools, and upon realizing that, continuing to argue then makes you alone both a fool and idiot.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Earl Grey

[silent thunder]

On 5/11/2019 at 12:19 AM, Owledge said:

I am still in the process of trusting my cynicism as accurate and accepting the speed with which I can often detect a hopeless case, a fool, someone who has a strong resistance to new insights and learning, who may not think what he says.

I like to look at people's motivations, so that is what I usually see very early on, sometimes after one comment, sometimes after one sentence, sometimes after a couple of words.

 

I came upon this picture and it expressed exactly that lesson in its most refined form - instant recognition, maximum avoidance of energy leeching:

 

 

One of my teachers conveyed a lesson I still have trouble with due to its extremism, or maybe it was because he had so much energy that it was OK, or maybe he had it because he followed the rule:

Send 10% energy out, keep 90% in.

I guess the key understanding that helps to follow that rule is that the energy you keep in does not (have to) / should not just sit idly there.

I use humor playfulness and absurdity to get a feel for the level of absolute certainty exhibited.

 

Absolute certainty for me is a barometer for foolishness.  They seem to have a direct proportional relationship... as one rises, so does the other.

 

Then I remember that all of this is my own interpretations about them made by my mind, out of the partial information received from my senses, which reminds me that this renders almost all input utterly self projected assumptions based on subconscious behavioral conditioning models... then I throw the entire thing out and go about my day.

 

 

[doc benway]

I try to approach this like silent thunder. When I encounter someone I find to be stuck, opinionated, fixed, unwilling to see an alternative perspective, I do my best to see how I may seem just like that to others, given any particular context or set of circumstances. Whatever view I hold, no matter how convinced I am of its veracity, is limited and relative. When I can see this directly, my irritation, frustration, or impatience towards the other person dissolves and some degree of understanding and compassion remain. Trying to see the other’s point of view, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched, teaches me far more than simply dismissing them as fools and idiots. The US political landscape has helped me enormously in this regard. That said, it has also taught me to take the approach of not engaging, debating, or arguing, unless I am willing to pay the price. And to be clear, this is my intention, not something I have yet mastered.

[Owledge]

14 minutes ago, steve said:

I try to approach this like silent thunder. When I encounter someone I find to be stuck, opinionated, fixed, unwilling to see an alternative perspective, I do my best to see how I may seem just like that to others, given any particular context or set of circumstances. Whatever view I hold, no matter how convinced I am of its veracity, is limited and relative. When I can see this directly, my irritation, frustration, or impatience towards the other person dissolves and some degree of understanding and compassion remain. Trying to see the other’s point of view, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched, teaches me far more than simply dismissing them as fools and idiots. The US political landscape has helped me enormously in this regard. That said, it has also taught me to take the approach of not engaging, debating, or arguing, unless I am willing to pay the price. And to be clear, this is my intention, not something I have yet mastered.

I had a phase like that. Eventually transitioned into detecting driving intention. Closed-minded people are often by nature of it beyond help. They do not seek it. You can take any approach you want, your mistake will be to try and enlighten them. They just want to stroke their ego and/or comfort their fears.

I do understand what fear makes people do. But interaction with some people is distraction. I have learned exhaustively in that segment. But I, too, have to keep practicing to not engage. And the tricky part is that I do not enjoy prolonged solitude, so avoiding all the fools is a problem, hah.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Owledge

[doc benway]

13 minutes ago, Owledge said:

I had a phase like that. Eventually transitioned into detecting driving intention. Closed-minded people are often by nature of it beyond help. They do not seek it. You can take any approach you want, your mistake will be to try and enlighten them. They just want to stroke their ego and/or comfort their fears.

I think you misunderstand me.

I didn't mention trying to help or enlighten anyone.

This approach is is for my own practice, my own growth.

If it somehow benefits them, that is great!

If not, that is equally fine.

Whether or not it benefits them is mostly a function of where they're at and if they're ready for a change.

I can't control that and attempting to will cause negativity for us both.

 

13 minutes ago, Owledge said:

I do understand what fear makes people do. But interaction with some people is distraction. I have learned exhaustively in that segment. But I, too, have to keep practicing to not engage. And the tricky part is that I do not enjoy prolonged solitude, so avoiding all the fools is a problem, hah.

I take this approach in large part for this very reason.

One cannot avoid problems or challenging people but it is possible to turn those very problems into one's spiritual path.

[3bob]

go hide in the woods or in your room and then you will be safe from interaction...until the fool destroys the woods and your room.

[dwai]

No one is an absolute fool really. Everyone is at varying levels of knowing. So “foolishness” or “intelligence” is a relative thing. It also varies from day to day. For example, on some days I feel really smart and others I feel really foolish.

 

The feeling foolish bit usually goes hand in hand with whether I ended up succumbing to the propensity to do something compulsive. 

 

We can be compassionate towards someone who knows less. My teachers always did/do that with me. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by dwai

[joeblast]

Its just like to some extent all humans are crazy - all humans are foolish as a matter of self serving nature, which is why its refined to go beyond that.  It is always amusing watching people who believe foolish things talk about this stuff

[Pilgrim]

This reminds me of something Sir Alec said... oh wait ... who is the more foolish? 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Aetherous]

Socrates said something along the lines of wisdom being knowing that you don't know many things.

 

So I think it follows that as we become more and more wise, we can end up feeling more and more foolish about ourselves.

 

Regarding others - the more foolish, the more dangerous they can be. So, it's wise to know who they are and not be destroyed by them.

 

Some quick insights into a fool versus a wise person, in light of the tarot, for fun...not all there is to be said about it, and it may contradict some other interpretations of it...

The fool turns away from the light. His head is high, assured of what he thinks is his wisdom (which is in fact just cleverness and stupidity), unaware of the truth. He isn't careful to support himself with his staff, so his footing on the ground of reality is unstable due to his own lack of precaution. His focus is on the external appearances of things, rather than the true reality of things, given his clothing. The dangerous nature of his foolishness is represented by the fact that he's about to walk off of the cliff. Not only is he about to become dangerous to himself, but the most loyal "man's best friend", who looks up to him, is about to go off the cliff as well - showing what happens to someone that's a good friend to others, who underestimates the dangerous nature of the fool. The white rose has a fragrance, which the fool has just smelled, representing "the finer things in life"...the fool thinks it's better to appease themselves with delights, than to truly be wise which is often the opposite of delightful.

 

 

The hermit, or wise person, holds fast to the light. They have become aware of the darkness in the world, so in a sense, life isn't as bright and cheerful as it once when they were an ignorant fool. They have an aged appearance compared to the youthful fool, which means they've lived through things and learned. Their clothing isn't indicative of being focused on false appearances. With their staff, they support their footing in life, and instead of being about to walk off of a cliff, they have mastered the earth (become aware of reality) and stand safely upon the ground...which might even be the peak of a mountain, further indicating their mastery of reality, through being aware of truth. His head is low, knowing the cold and dark truth, as well as recognizing his own inadequacies fully, as opposed to being overconfident...in addition, the head bowed in prayer represents the inner light of wisdom and compassion, which he shines out into the world.

 

 

[welkin]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

No one is an absolute fool really. Everyone is at varying levels of knowing. So “foolishness” or “intelligence” is a relative thing. It also varies from day to day. For example, on some days I feel really smart and others I feel really foolish.

 

The feeling foolish bit usually goes hand in hand with whether I ended up succumbing to the propensity to do something compulsive. 

 

We can be compassionate towards someone who knows less. My teachers always did/do that with me. 

 

I think this guy may be on to something

[welkin]

So is detecting intention, so is detecting ego, so is detecting purity, so is detecting emotions, so is detecting unconsciousness, so is detecting intuition... the list can go on and on

 

I guess we all have some thing we like to detect that we find invaluable. I wonder if there is a connection in between what we like detecting and who we are hmmmm

Edited May 14, 2019 by welkin

[dwai]

20 hours ago, Owledge said:

I had a phase like that. Eventually transitioned into detecting driving intention. Closed-minded people are often by nature of it beyond help. They do not seek it. You can take any approach you want, your mistake will be to try and enlighten them. They just want to stroke their ego and/or comfort their fears.

I do understand what fear makes people do. But interaction with some people is distraction. I have learned exhaustively in that segment. But I, too, have to keep practicing to not engage. And the tricky part is that I do not enjoy prolonged solitude, so avoiding all the fools is a problem, hah.

One solution might be to give up expecting anything in our interactions with others. IF we don’t have any expectations, we won’t suffer the effect of disappointments. 

 

I know it’s easier said than done. But that is a maxim that was articulated to me by a very wise person many years ago, and I found it to be proven right many times over. 

 

 

[Fa Xin]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

One solution might be to give up expecting anything in our interactions with others. IF we don’t have any expectations, we won’t suffer the effect of disappointments. 

 

I know it’s easier said than done. But that is a maxim that was articulated to me by a very wise person many years ago, and I found it to be proven right many times over. 

 

 

 

Good post. Many times I am surprised if I “empty my cup” what turns up. There can be wisdom in any moment, and is sometimes delivered by a “sacred clown” 😀

[freeform]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

No one is an absolute fool really.

 

Yes.

 

I think it’s a bit of a semantic trap. I don’t see people as foolish or smart or whatever...

 

I see their actions as foolish or skilful... 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

We can be compassionate towards someone who knows less

 

I’ve seen this turn into a sort of condescending arrogance in certain ‘spiritual’ circles.

 

A foolish action is a foolish action - there’s no need to negate it or see the good in it or understand it... it is what it is.

 

I don’t know the full extent of cause and effect chains that led to the action, so I treat the action accordingly, but I treat the person as just a person - not a fool not as a poor unfortunate idiot that doesn’t know any better... just a person with an Acquired Mind... just like me.

 

Maybe that’s a form of compassion in a way? 

 

But Id deny it vehemently 

Edited May 14, 2019 by freeform

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Good post. Many times I am surprised if I “empty my cup” what turns up. There can be wisdom in any moment, and is sometimes delivered by a “sacred clown” 😀

Exactly!

 

The moment we label someone or something a certain way, we essentially give up the opportunity to learn anything from them. 

 

My experience is quite in line with your “sacred clown” analogy. Often the truth is so simple that we can’t even imagine it as being the truth. Our minds are evolutionarily oriented towards doing, and dissecting concepts and ideas.

 

I used to laugh at the idea of “new agers” making “high sounding statements”, can’t remember how many times I rolled my eyes at the statement “you are already enlightened” in the past 😂

 

But it turns out the joke was really on me, because the very things I thought were impossibilities, were proven to be correct and all my complex ideas and theories about how  things should be became ridiculously convoluted and complex. 

 

It seems we tend to correlate  complexity with intelligence. Yet in nature we find the simplest things to be the most resilient and durable. 

 

Didn’t Lao-Tzu say “my words seem simple, but most laugh at me and call me a fool”?  

[liminal_luke]

Three cheers for the sacred clown!  (Great phrase, @Fa Xin)  We fall so easily into judgment of seeming idiots but there´s a positive aspect to the fool archetype.  You´ll know my spiritual practices have finally started to kick in when my posts exhibit less ironic sensibility and less cleverness, when I´m simple and innocent and without guile.  Many will disagree, I know, but in my own estimation I´m not yet a fool.  There´s still hope for me though.

[Owledge]

@Aetherous When looking at those cards, they are both extremes, suggesting a middle between both might be the most ... healthy? ... Easy? ... Nourishing?

The hermit would be someone who has been around too many fools for too long and thus couldn't move towards them in acceptance.

Balance brings health. If balance is not found, one cannot just look at the individual. Those who do might be ... fools ... for neglecting the impact of the external world, practicing a self-serving lack of empathy. After all, the external world can have a powerful impact. It is part of the illusions we create. Empathy opens the heart towards acknowledging the validity of shadows. To cure them, but many people are quite comfortable serving them. And that ... folly ... needs to be detected, lest the hermit becomes an eternal fool wasting energy on those who will laugh about it.

[Aetherous]

1 hour ago, Owledge said:

@Aetherous When looking at those cards, they are both extremes, suggesting a middle between both might be the most ... healthy? ... Easy? ... Nourishing?

The hermit would be someone who has been around too many fools for too long and thus couldn't move towards them in acceptance.

Balance brings health. If balance is not found, one cannot just look at the individual. Those who do might be ... fools ... for neglecting the impact of the external world, practicing a self-serving lack of empathy. After all, the external world can have a powerful impact. It is part of the illusions we create. Empathy opens the heart towards acknowledging the validity of shadows. To cure them, but many people are quite comfortable serving them. And that ... folly ... needs to be detected, lest the hermit becomes an eternal fool wasting energy on those who will laugh about it.

 

Oh yes, definitely. I don't want to stand on top of a mountain all day and night, holding a lantern.

[Owledge]

25 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Oh yes, definitely. I don't want to stand on top of a mountain all day and night, holding a lantern.

Me neither, but it's not like people will see him and invite him for dinner, being like: Oh, what a virtuous man.

They may very well say it, but then think "how nice that some fool is doing it so we don't have to" and definitely not want him around, since he would only make their life more difficult. As fools they will have no foresight and will see those with foresight as fools.

 

He who sees two things that look, smell, sound and feel identical yet recognizes their profound difference holds the jewel that everybody wants to own but no one wants to touch.

[3bob]

it is wise to recognize one's own times of foolishness, it is even wiser to recognize one's own times of evil-ness...

 

[welkin]

And yet, we're describing what a fool is. Why? no clue

 

So instead of helping a fool who's a hermit or a clown, we say he's a fool, because he doesn't give shit about us.

 

This thread is hilarious.

 

Either the teachings from the past have been lost, or fools have been passing down knowledge for thousands of years.

 

The topic of this thread remains correct.

 

But i will be glad to mental masturbate nonetheless

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by welkin

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Socrates said something along the lines of wisdom being knowing that you don't know many things.

 

That is similar to the teachings I received on the subject "

 

 

" Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.   "

 

In my experience, the more I learn and know, throws up even more questions about what I dont know  !    

 

 

 

 

 

"  ...

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

So I think it follows that as we become more and more wise, we can end up feeling more and more foolish about ourselves.

 

Regarding others - the more foolish, the more dangerous they can be. So, it's wise to know who they are and not be destroyed by them.

 

Carlo Cipolla  ( 'The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity' )  defines stupidity as  ;   " A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. "

 

While an intelligent person  finds solutions that cause gain to others   AND themselves  at the same time .

 

Carlo warns us hiw dangerous stupid people are ; 

 

" It is not difficult to understand how social, political and institutional power enhances the damaging potential of a stupid person. But one still has to explain and understand what essentially it is that makes a stupid person dangerous to other people - in other words what constitutes the power of stupidity.

 

" Essentially stupid people are dangerous and damaging because reasonable people find it difficult to imagine and understand unreasonable behaviour. An intelligent person may understand the logic of a bandit. The bandit's actions follow a pattern of rationality: nasty rationality, if you like, but still rationality. The bandit wants a plus on his account. Since he is not intelligent enough to devise ways of obtaining the plus as well as providing you with a plus, he will produce his plus by causing a minus to appear on your account. All this is bad, but it is rational and if you are rational you can predict it. You can foresee a bandit's actions, his nasty manoeuvres and ugly aspirations and often can build up your defenses. "

 

http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/

 

 

7 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

Some quick insights into a fool versus a wise person, in light of the tarot, for fun...not all there is to be said about it, and it may contradict some other interpretations of it...

The fool turns away from the light. His head is high, assured of what he thinks is his wisdom (which is in fact just cleverness and stupidity), unaware of the truth. He isn't careful to support himself with his staff, so his footing on the ground of reality is unstable due to his own lack of precaution. His focus is on the external appearances of things, rather than the true reality of things, given his clothing. The dangerous nature of his foolishness is represented by the fact that he's about to walk off of the cliff. Not only is he about to become dangerous to himself, but the most loyal "man's best friend", who looks up to him, is about to go off the cliff as well - showing what happens to someone that's a good friend to others, who underestimates the dangerous nature of the fool. The white rose has a fragrance, which the fool has just smelled, representing "the finer things in life"...the fool thinks it's better to appease themselves with delights, than to truly be wise which is often the opposite of delightful.

 

 

The hermit, or wise person, holds fast to the light. They have become aware of the darkness in the world, so in a sense, life isn't as bright and cheerful as it once when they were an ignorant fool. They have an aged appearance compared to the youthful fool, which means they've lived through things and learned. Their clothing isn't indicative of being focused on false appearances. With their staff, they support their footing in life, and instead of being about to walk off of a cliff, they have mastered the earth (become aware of reality) and stand safely upon the ground...which might even be the peak of a mountain, further indicating their mastery of reality, through being aware of truth. His head is low, knowing the cold and dark truth, as well as recognizing his own inadequacies fully, as opposed to being overconfident...in addition, the head bowed in prayer represents the inner light of wisdom and compassion, which he shines out into the world.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm .    Perhaps that is the 'reversed'  Fool  ....  not the better side of the energy.  When not averse, I see the Fool as  more than what the external world may see of him;

 

He is Lao Tsu, at times :

 

6 hours ago, dwai said:

 . . . . . Didn’t Lao-Tzu say “my words seem simple, but most laugh at me and call me a fool”?  

 

Khidr   at others (in his 'trickster' role )  and most definitely,  Nasrudin !

 

 

The Missed Appointment

A philosopher made an appointment with Nasrudin to have a scholarly discussion. When the day came, the philosopher dropped by Nasrudin's house as planned. However, Nasrudin wasn't home. The philosopher angrily took his pencil out of his pocket, wrote "Asshole" on Nasrudin's door, and then left

Nasrudin finally came home later and saw this. He quickly realized that he had missed his appointment, and he darted off to the philosopher's house.

"Forgive my error," Nasrudin told the philosopher when he got there. "I totally forgot about our appointment today. But when I got home and saw that you had written your name on my door, I came here as fast as I could."

 

[dwai]

 

22 minutes ago, Nungali said:

He is Lao Tsu, at times :

 

 

Khidr   at others (in his 'trickster' role )  and most definitely,  Nasrudin !

 

 

The Missed Appointment

A philosopher made an appointment with Nasrudin to have a scholarly discussion. When the day came, the philosopher dropped by Nasrudin's house as planned. However, Nasrudin wasn't home. The philosopher angrily took his pencil out of his pocket, wrote "Asshole" on Nasrudin's door, and then left

Nasrudin finally came home later and saw this. He quickly realized that he had missed his appointment, and he darted off to the philosopher's house.

"Forgive my error," Nasrudin told the philosopher when he got there. "I totally forgot about our appointment today. But when I got home and saw that you had written your name on my door, I came here as fast as I could."

 

😂🤣

thanks for sharing