What is Nirvana - A post from FB

[Spotless]

We tend to see delusion as an early stage malady - it is an ever increasing malady and essentially how most try to “die” by perfecting according to Will.

[Spotless]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

Unencumbered radiant light.. sounds like somethingness.. or emptiness.. but not really nothingness. 

 

I used to use that word - nothingness, but it is soo easily understood in a nihilistic context that I walked away from it.

 

Shine on..

A good point - words are fickle

 

It was in relation to the quote.

 

A return to the Ocean was never a “return” but “one’s” identification in the waves is relinquished to the living light - no thing ness.

[Spotless]

One can pound the square peg into the round hole relentlessly- in the fires.

 

Eventually the corners may wear down and we can claim victory in a force fit - but it is a delusion - and the fires have been only appeased - the inertia’s are still well exercised and awaiting however much they have taken a back seat.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Spotless

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

A good point - words are fickle

 

It was in relation to the quote.

 

A return to the Ocean was never a “return” but “one’s” identification in the waves is relinquished to the living light - no thing ness.

 

Was just feeling conversational.. it happens sometimes. 

[freeform]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

everyone who wants to “achieve” something, always argues the same way

 

That wasn’t an argument  - just a disagreement.

 

But you’re quite right - I’m definitely at a stage of still wanting to achieve something...

 

I’ve been in states where there is nothing to achieve...

 

But I’m certainly not in that state now. When I wake up, I schedule my time - I plan things out and work out what needs to be achieved by the end of the day and how this leads to a longer term achievement.

 

I’m not a believer of ‘fake till you make it’. 

 

Maybe you’re at a stage where there is nothing to achieve?

 

As in you’re living completely spontaneously with every action coming from depths of your ‘Original Self’ and not your Acquired self?

 

If you are then we have no need for quotes from Buddhist texts - when we have a Buddha in our very forum

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

And how does one do this?

 

One walks the path

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Thank you, but not quite what I was asking.

 

Lets see if I can pose the Questions so they are better understood? and ask for assistance with it.

 

@Apech

 

#1. Was Siddhartha From his own realizations the founder of Buddhism? 

 

The Buddha was part of the shramana tradition in the Eastern Gangetic region of North India (along with Jains and Ajivekas etc).  It seems he achieved awakening after trying the various extant schools of the time including Samkhya and so on - but he rejected these approaches and achieved his enlightenment alone under the bodhi tree on the basis of his own insight into the nature of reality.  At first he thought his realisation impossible to communicate in words but on being exhorted to teach  began with the Four Noble Truths - which I guess could be considered to be the beginning of Buddhism - but of course they wouldn't have called it Buddhism but Dharma a term held in common with the Sanskrit based cultures of Northern India.

 

 

6 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

#2. Did the Buddhist writings start with Siddahartha / Gautama Buddha? 

 

No he didn't write anything.  He lived in pre-literate times in India.  His teachings were first written down in the 1st Century BC as the Pali Canon (as well as other collections) based on oral transmission to that date.  So this is 200 - 300 years after his paranirvana.  They are considered by many to be authentic and extensive - but I would say they are inevitably selective towards the prevailing form of Buddhism at that time which was scholastic monasticism.

 

 

6 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

#3. Did all of the Sutras like the Diamond Sutra and the Lotus Sutras come from further deeper knowledge of Siddhartha/ Gautama Buddha? 

 

It depends on your point of view.  There is a significant difference between the Pali Canon and Mahayana sutras - not just in content and emphasis but also in the way they were supposed to be used.  Sravaka sutras are meant for listeners - while mahayana sutras are more participatory and were transmitted from the 'holder' to the audience.  They are not necessarily deeper but perhaps more aimed at a different mind-set - one motivated by faith and energy rather than rational analysis.  The earliest mahayana sutras were written down more or less at the same time as the other sutras - and originally there were both mahayana and hinayana practioners side by side in the same monasteries - so the historical development of one from the other is a myth.

 

 

6 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

What DWAI shared is very good and the answer in those writing to the monk I believe say it all when it comes to what is needed.

 

The other sutras appear to me to as an attempt at making more leaves of his tree available.

 

Siddhartha's explanation that the vast content of his knowledge is not helpful.  IE. all the leaves he was not holding in his hand.

 

So Question #4. If as illustrated above was the helpful stuff Siddhartha taught as practical ways and means to Nibbana, where do the sutras fit in did he even teach these things? Are they records of his talks to those who perhaps had achieved Nibbana? And therefore were ready for more?

 

 

 

 

I think the Buddha was making the point that as a teacher of non-dualism that quite a lot of what he said is provisional - or skillfull means - but has been taken as absolute truth by some who followed him.  He taught in 84,000 ways (a number which can be taken to mean infinite) because he addressed the needs of his audiences - as these varied - also the Truth = Dharma is not directly expressible in words - so spontaneously in the moment what can 'work' in one case is not always appropriate.

 

 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

Lao Tzu’s methodless method as taught in the daodejing is another one,

 

It is said to lead to Sagehood - Sheng Ren... not the same as Zhen Ren... 

[dwai]

 

21 minutes ago, freeform said:

If you are then we have no need for quotes from Buddhist texts - when we have a Buddha in our very forum

Don’t look at the finger, or you’ll miss  the glorious beauty of the full moon  

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

It is said to lead to Sagehood - Sheng Ren... not the same as Zhen Ren... 

Potatoes, potatoes 😜

[freeform]

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Don’t look at the finger, or you’ll miss  the glorious beauty of the full moon  

 

Unless the owner of that finger is just pointing at their photo of the moon

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

Potatoes, potatoes 😜

 

Actually there are hundreds of cultivars of potatoes... some delicious... others poisonous without specific preparation... some we call potatoes but they’re not...

 

So yes doesn’t seem to matter - potatoes, potatoes - unless you’re actually deeply involved in potato cultivation - then it really does matter.

Edited May 12, 2019 by freeform

[Pilgrim]

35 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The Buddha was part of the shramana tradition in the Eastern Gangetic region of North India (along with Jains and Ajivekas etc).  It seems he achieved awakening after trying the various extant schools of the time including Samkhya and so on - but he rejected these approaches and achieved his enlightenment alone under the bodhi tree on the basis of his own insight into the nature of reality.  At first he thought his realisation impossible to communicate in words but on being exhorted to teach  began with the Four Noble Truths - which I guess could be considered to be the beginning of Buddhism - but of course they wouldn't have called it Buddhism but Dharma a term held in common with the Sanskrit based cultures of Northern India.

 

 

 

No he didn't write anything.  He lived in pre-literate times in India.  His teachings were first written down in the 1st Century BC as the Pali Canon (as well as other collections) based on oral transmission to that date.  So this is 200 - 300 years after his paranirvana.  They are considered by many to be authentic and extensive - but I would say they are inevitably selective towards the prevailing form of Buddhism at that time which was scholastic monasticism.

 

 

 

It depends on your point of view.  There is a significant difference between the Pali Canon and Mahayana sutras - not just in content and emphasis but also in the way they were supposed to be used.  Sravaka sutras are meant for listeners - while mahayana sutras are more participatory and were transmitted from the 'holder' to the audience.  They are not necessarily deeper but perhaps more aimed at a different mind-set - one motivated by faith and energy rather than rational analysis.  The earliest mahayana sutras were written down more or less at the same time as the other sutras - and originally there were both mahayana and hinayana practioners side by side in the same monasteries - so the historical development of one from the other is a myth.

 

 

 

I think the Buddha was making the point that as a teacher of non-dualism that quite a lot of what he said is provisional - or skillfull means - but has been taken as absolute truth by some who followed him.  He taught in 84,000 ways (a number which can be taken to mean infinite) because he addressed the needs of his audiences - as these varied - also the Truth = Dharma is not directly expressible in words - so spontaneously in the moment what can 'work' in one case is not always appropriate.

 

 

Thank you very, very much for such a wonderful reply and so informative as well.

 

May I ask further why there are different Buddha’s referenced?

 

I always thought that Siddhartha is the Buddha’s Just like Jesus is the Christ.

[Pilgrim]

40 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

One walks the path

And that would be? Specifics please. Thank you.

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

And that would be? Specifics please. Thank you.

 

You’re asking me to detail the spiritual path for you? I’m sure you understand that’s kind of beyond the scope of this forum. At least in the way that I like to communicate.

 

Or are you looking for one of those ‘there is no craving for there is no separation between the craver and the craved’ - because I’m all out of those

[Pilgrim]

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

You’re asking me to detail the spiritual path for you? I’m sure you understand that’s kind of beyond the scope of this forum. At least in the way that I like to communicate.

 

Or are you looking for one of those ‘there is no craving for there is no separation between the craver and the craved’ - because I’m all out of those

No,  nothing like that just asking if you meant the way that Siddhartha / Gautama explained as with what DWAI shared.

 

If you meant the That as the path sorry for the confusion. 🙂

[Apech]

21 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Thank you very, very much for such a wonderful reply and so informative as well.

 

May I ask further why there are different Buddha’s referenced?

 

I always thought that Siddhartha is the Buddha’s Just like Jesus is the Christ.

 

It's a temptation for us Westerners to compare Buddha and Christ - but it is really a mistake.  The Gautama Buddha was the Buddha for this age but before him there were others and after him Maitreya Buddha.  Buddha just means awakened one - so anyone awakened is a Buddha.  In Mahayana and vajrayana there are sambhoga kaya Buddhas also - although they are sometimes termed Bodhisattvas.

[dwai]

43 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Unless the owner of that finger is just pointing at their photo of the moon

 admire the beauty of the photo  then...does the fact that it is a photo make the moon less beautiful? 

Edited May 12, 2019 by dwai

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Actually there are hundreds of cultivars of potatoes... some delicious... others poisonous without specific preparation... some we call potatoes but they’re not...

 

So yes doesn’t seem to matter - potatoes, potatoes - unless you’re actually deeply involved in potato cultivation - then it really does matter.

 touché ... I’ll keep that in mind if I meet anyone interested in potato farming  

 

Ok, how about we just agree to disagree and move on? 

[freeform]

31 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

No,  nothing like that just asking if you meant the way that Siddhartha / Gautama explained as with what DWAI shared.

 

Oh I see.

 

No sorry - I’m not an expert on the Dharma. My Buddhist teachers just tend to tell me what to do and then watch me do it in a little wooden hut in the forest

 

My main path is Daoist. My Buddhist teachers understand that and work around it.

 

There are various way of getting over craving in Daoism and they are different at different stages.

 

The difference in Daoism is that there’s rarely any contrived ‘control’ of your behaviour - there are very few precepts and rules for behaviour...

 

It’s considered that imitating virtue is as bad as being un-virtuous.

 

So you can try to act compassionately or wisely, but that will move you as far (if not further) from embodying your ‘original nature’ (or Yuan Shen) as would acting selfishly or foolishly...

 

Because any contrived action builds further layers of ‘Acquired Mind’.

 

In fact if your Acquired Nature is selfish and foolish - you’d be better off acting that way, because at least it does not build any new layers of ‘self’.

 

It tends to be very unpopular with most students 😄

 

It is one reason I refuse to speak ‘wise sounding words’... because I’m clearly not that wise

[freeform]

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

 admire the beauty of the photo  then...does the fact that it is a photo make the moon less beautiful? 

 

It may look beautiful yes - just as the description of a dish on the menu of a fancy restaurant might sound amazing - but if you ate the menu you wouldn’t be happy.

 

Does that make sense?

[mrpasserby]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

If you are then we have no need for quotes from Buddhist texts - when we have a Buddha in our very forum

I don't know about titles, but I have experienced high level help from several higher beings while posting about and projecting presents in the DBs.

I post this hoping that some here can avoid the dangerous extents that I went through just to get the attention of just one higher level being, hoping to get a helping hand. So why not avail ourselves of this tremendous opportunity currently at DBs and not just learn what nirvana is but for those who haven't yet, try to actually experience it with a little help from our friends. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by mrpasserby
corrected paragraph alignment

[Pilgrim]

53 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Oh I see.

 

No sorry - I’m not an expert on the Dharma. My Buddhist teachers just tend to tell me what to do and then watch me do it in a little wooden hut in the forest

 

My main path is Daoist. My Buddhist teachers understand that and work around it.

 

There are various way of getting over craving in Daoism and they are different at different stages.

 

The difference in Daoism is that there’s rarely any contrived ‘control’ of your behaviour - there are very few precepts and rules for behaviour...

 

It’s considered that imitating virtue is as bad as being un-virtuous.

 

So you can try to act compassionately or wisely, but that will move you as far (if not further) from embodying your ‘original nature’ (or Yuan Shen) as would acting selfishly or foolishly...

 

Because any contrived action builds further layers of ‘Acquired Mind’.

 

In fact if your Acquired Nature is selfish and foolish - you’d be better off acting that way, because at least it does not build any new layers of ‘self’.

 

It tends to be very unpopular with most students 😄

 

It is one reason I refuse to speak ‘wise sounding words’... because I’m clearly not that wise

You know this sounds correct to me. Thanks for that, any other unwise things you can share will be appreciated. 😀

 

Seriously though thanks for that, this may be one of the best explanations and insight into Daoism anyone has shared that I understood.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

It may look beautiful yes - just as the description of a dish on the menu of a fancy restaurant might sound amazing - but if you ate the menu you wouldn’t be happy.

 

Does that make sense?

🙏🏾🙇🏻

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Unencumbered radiant light.. sounds like somethingness.. or emptiness.. but not really nothingness. 

 

I used to use that word - nothingness, but it is soo easily understood in a nihilistic context that I walked away from it.

 

Shine on..

 

Similarly, I’ve leaned away from the word emptiness in favor of words like openness, resting, and spaciousness, depending on context and participants in any given discussion. Emptiness invites the conceptual mind to engage, which often results in the error of nihilism, Words like openness, resting, or spaciousness connote a more practical and experiential approach to my ear that may lead us to direct realization. Genuine realization of emptiness cannot be misinterpreted in a nihilistic way.