Safety and Efficiency of the Daoist Path

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

What keypoints determine a strong foundation or proof of a strong foundation. 8 hour standing is 1 example?

 

Yes being able to stand in relative ease and comfort for 8hrs is a good indication that you’ve built the Qi Gong body.

 

Having a calm, quiet, long, full and soft breath with no mental control or contrivance is another.

 

Having the ability to absorb your mind effortlessly through your entire body (this is Ting - inner listening) and being able to hold that absorption unwaveringly for as long as you want is another.

 

The way it generally works is body comes first and helps with opening the breath... so breath comes second and helps with quality of mind... and so the unwavering, absorbed mind comes third.

 

[welkin]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Hi Welkin...

 

So I think we need to talk about ‘dabbling’.

 

You’ve talked about Mo pai breathing, kundalini yoga, flying Phoenix, heavy weight training, Damo Mitchell’s stuff, Hermetics etc.

 

You’re going to need to focus on one thing. It is not the case that doing mo pai breathing while practicing flying Phoenix and doing Hermetics training will give you some extraordinary results. In fact it’s the very opposite.

 

I realise it’s exciting to have all these possibilities in front of you. I’m not saying you shouldn’t explore them, but to actually get anywhere you will need to pick one path and stick to it.

 

The best way to explore is to actually meet people practicing these systems. You’ll get a very good vibe of what each school is like by meeting students and teachers.

 

You can work out which ones seem more compatible and who would you rather turn out like (the nature of this sort of training is that you’ll start to harmonise with the teacher and general ‘personality’ of the school)

 

You can’t combine these things - it just doesn’t work like that... it’s like getting all excited that you got into aeronautical engineering so you put a helicopter blade, a hot air balloon and some rocket boosters on a passenger plane...

 

I’d suggest just make a habit of training something physical every day.

 

Do some basic sitting practice like following your breath (not breath control like you talked about - you will end up hurting yourself).

 

And then explore, talk to people (not just on forums) and see what path you’d like to follow. 

 

Once you’ve got a disciplined daily routine (this can be hard to establish) then it will be easy to plug in a more ‘internal’ practice in that time slot.

 

 

What i'm mainly trying to do is cover my bases as far as each thing for specific purpose. So when i said flying pheonix, it is with the idea that it is only conducive to everything else i'd be doing. With kundalini, it would've been specifically for the purpose of opening up my channels most optimally. if that's already covered enough within the system of qigong i'd be doing, then i'm okay with that.

 

I've been weight training for 15 years, more than half my life. so i've gone through a million mistakes, and feel like i would only do it if it enhances what i want. I already have theorized that bodybuilding or intense training that affects mind muscle body consciousness is not positive. But i beliveve in experimenting safely what can work.

 

I don't mind going out and meeting, it's just that i know my life has taken a specific turn to hermtizing for a specific purpose. So it's something i accept for now.

 

I'm planning out my daily practice right now, one that i plan to dedicate to (with minor adjustments i'm sure) for several months and see what happens.

[welkin]

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes being able to stand in relative ease and comfort for 8hrs is a good indication that you’ve built the Qi Gong body.

 

Having a calm, quiet, long, full and soft breath with no mental control or contrivance is another.

 

Having the ability to absorb your mind effortlessly through your entire body (this is Ting - inner listening) and being able to hold that absorption unwaveringly for as long as you want is another.

 

The way it generally works is body comes first and helps with opening the breath... so breath comes second and helps with quality of mind... and so the unwavering, absorbed mind comes third.

 

 

I am very curious about this. Okay. so the last paragraph was in relation to the one before right?

 

So the technique is to feel the body itself opening up or prepping for the absorption of breath, therefore creating an easier unforced filling into the area?

 

When you say body, do you mean everything from the head all the way down to the dantien?

 

Any specifics? Is this how i should breathe instead when meditating?

Edited May 17, 2019 by welkin

[welkin]

Btw, i appreciate all this Freeform and others. i'm going to give back by creating my practice journal as soon as i a have it planned.

Edited May 17, 2019 by welkin

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, welkin said:

What i'm mainly trying to do is cover my bases as far as each thing for specific purpose. So when i said flying pheonix, it is with the idea that it is only conducive to everything else i'd be doing. With kundalini, it would've been specifically for the purpose of opening up my channels most optimally.

 

I get it. It makes logical sense... but the reality is that it just doesn’t work that way.

 

Just like in my aeronautical engineering example... of course it makes sense to have a helicopter blade - you can lift off vertically... of course it makes sense to have a hot air balloon - you can cruise at great altitude for ages... of course it makes sense to also have rocket boosters - you can go super fast!

 

But the result is you’d just crash and kill all the passengers.

 

Each path is like a well crafted airplane. They all have different features... they’ll focus on different aspects of air travel... some you’ll just prefer the look of... and yes, some are better than others overall...

 

But you’ll need to pick one aircraft to get into and fly, you won’t do well breaking bits off one plane and bolting them onto another... It’s not like weight lifting - these aren’t ‘exercises’ they are paths of development...

 

You’re clearly sincere and I’m sure you’ll do well.

 

Just remember the advice you’re getting here. I know it’s tempting to think that you know better - I certainly made mistakes like this... but some mistakes you simply can’t bounce back from.

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, welkin said:

So the technique is to feel the body itself opening up or prepping for the absorption of breath, therefore creating an easier unforced filling into the area?

 

It’s not really a technique as much as an ‘ability’ that you develop over time.

 

In building the foundation you will have cleared blockages and stagnation... this will allow your awareness to penetrate deeper into your body... so your awareness can suffuse into all parts of your body all at once.

 

This is difficult - if you think you can do it straight away, then you’re wrong - look for the error!

 

Normally when junior students tell me they can get their awareness into their full body, I can check - and 100% of the time their awareness is just in their head and they’re imagining everything.

 

By body I mean everything - from top of head to tips of toes - from the hair on your skin to the core of your bones.

 

32 minutes ago, welkin said:

Is this how i should breathe instead when meditating?

 

I’d recommend the following.

 

Sit in good upright posture.

 

Allow the breath to be as it is. Don’t interfere even a bit. Don’t try to breathe from abdomen or anything - allow it to do as it pleases.

 

Using diffuse, relaxed awareness, start to notice the tissues of your nose.

 

Keeping some of your awareness at the nose, move awareness deeper into the sinuses, allow your awareness to penetrate and suffuse into the tissues in your sinuses.

 

Keeping some of your awareness in your nose and sinuses, allow extra awareness to suffuse into the tissues of the back of your throat... 

 

And carry on this way going from your nose down through every part of your wind pipe, all parts of both your lungs and your diaphragm. Always adding rather than just moving awareness (so you’ll have just as much awareness left at your nose as all the way deep in your lungs). Your awareness should be soft and passive not focused, intense or ‘searching’... it should be mildly interested but not really... this is Ting.

 

Once all your breathing system is ‘lit up’ with your awareness just keep it there and let the breathing process carry on without any interference.

 

After a few weeks of daily practice, you’ll notice a substantial change in your natural breathing pattern.

 

This is a safe exercise for anyone to do. And despite its apparent simplicity, it can get you really far.

[welkin]

49 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I get it. It makes logical sense... but the reality is that it just doesn’t work that way.

 

Just like in my aeronautical engineering example... of course it makes sense to have a helicopter blade - you can lift off vertically... of course it makes sense to have a hot air balloon - you can cruise at great altitude for ages... of course it makes sense to also have rocket boosters - you can go super fast!

 

But the result is you’d just crash and kill all the passengers.

 

Each path is like a well crafted airplane. They all have different features... they’ll focus on different aspects of air travel... some you’ll just prefer the look of... and yes, some are better than others overall...

 

But you’ll need to pick one aircraft to get into and fly, you won’t do well breaking bits off one plane and bolting them onto another... It’s not like weight lifting - these aren’t ‘exercises’ they are paths of development...

 

You’re clearly sincere and I’m sure you’ll do well.

 

Just remember the advice you’re getting here. I know it’s tempting to think that you know better - I certainly made mistakes like this... but some mistakes you simply can’t bounce back from.

 

I appreciate this a lot seriously. i give into my temptation that i know better, so that someone can prove to me they know better. I do have high regard for what i think and conclude to often, because i have seen just how wrong people usually are and i dont find out until years later that i'm right. I am learning to trust my instincts.

 

But i am also more than aware that real experience trumps instincts, because they are the manifestations of instincts.

 

Understood though. So i choose to go down the qigong path. I don't have to do any yoga or other system for that matter. I only mentioned yoga because due to a lot of my injuries and incorrect muscle activation i realized yoga poses help more with certain parts of my body. I didn't necessarily mean to do any system, just want to like i've mentioned before i want to get my body to the state of a baby or child. I want to be able to know that i am optimal, have my channels open and muscles are acting in correct manner so i can practice optimally.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by welkin

[welkin]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

It’s not really a technique as much as an ‘ability’ that you develop over time.

 

In building the foundation you will have cleared blockages and stagnation... this will allow your awareness to penetrate deeper into your body... so your awareness can suffuse into all parts of your body all at once.

 

This is difficult - if you think you can do it straight away, then you’re wrong - look for the error!

 

Normally when junior students tell me they can get their awareness into their full body, I can check - and 100% of the time their awareness is just in their head and they’re imagining everything.

 

By body I mean everything - from top of head to tips of toes - from the hair on your skin to the core of your bones.

 

 

I’d recommend the following.

 

Sit in good upright posture.

 

Allow the breath to be as it is. Don’t interfere even a bit. Don’t try to breathe from abdomen or anything - allow it to do as it pleases.

 

Using diffuse, relaxed awareness, start to notice the tissues of your nose.

 

Keeping some of your awareness at the nose, move awareness deeper into the sinuses, allow your awareness to penetrate and suffuse into the tissues in your sinuses.

 

Keeping some of your awareness in your nose and sinuses, allow extra awareness to suffuse into the tissues of the back of your throat... 

 

And carry on this way going from your nose down through every part of your wind pipe, all parts of both your lungs and your diaphragm. Always adding rather than just moving awareness (so you’ll have just as much awareness left at your nose as all the way deep in your lungs). Your awareness should be soft and passive not focused, intense or ‘searching’... it should be mildly interested but not really... this is Ting.

 

Once all your breathing system is ‘lit up’ with your awareness just keep it there and let the breathing process carry on without any interference.

 

After a few weeks of daily practice, you’ll notice a substantial change in your natural breathing pattern.

 

This is a safe exercise for anyone to do. And despite its apparent simplicity, it can get you really far.

 

I am going to trust and follow this to the t. will edit if needed based on discussions.

[welkin]

19 hours ago, freeform said:

A very minimally contracted strong muscle is better than a strongly contracted weak muscle for the purposes of qigong.

 

Can you please further explain this concept just so i can make sure i understand.

 

Quote

Opening the body - basically stretching and loosening. Particular focus should be on the lower body, shoulders and spine. Also joint mobility stuff - like Scott Sonnon’s Intuflow is good.

 

If you were to recommend stretch type of program such as yoga, regular stretching, etc. Would you say this is 'the one' to get?

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, welkin said:

What keypoints determine a strong foundation or proof of a strong foundation. 8 hour standing is 1 example?

 

Strengthening is more important than stretching in order to develop chi power, but pushups and pull ups will not do it at all.  You need a strenuous kind of moving chi kung, which is what real nei kung has a lot of.  Like Freeform said, the strengthening should focus more on core strength, shoulder strength, and leg strength.  It needs to be the kind of exercise which does not make your muscles hard, like weight lifting does.  This point about strengthening in the proper way seems to be turning in to a big giant secret.

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, welkin said:

Can you please further explain this concept just so i can make sure i understand.

 

I can try.

 

Often people say you shouldn’t use muscle force in Qigong - but that’s not strictly true.

 

The idea is to relax as much as possible the tension of your muscles before you collapse on the floor in a flaccid heap

 

So if you have strong muscles with let’s say 1000 muscle fibres under a very low tension then it’ll hold you up.

 

If you have 100 muscle fibres though, it will take a lot of tension to still hold you up.

 

Tension is the enemy. It stops Qi and it stops you accessing your ‘insides’.

 

So this applies to the start of building the foundation.

 

What happens over time is that as you relax the major muscles as much as possible, you’ll begin to engage the deeper postural muscles that tend to be deeper in the body.

 

For example when we hold a plank in Qigong, we try to relax the glutes, the stomach and big muscles in the back, and instead try to engage the smaller muscles all around the spine.

 

At first both the postural and movement muscles will all be triggered at the same time. But over time with standing they begin to separate.

 

As the postural muscles get stronger and stronger, you’ll be able to let go further the bigger outer muscles.

 

And there’s another aspect which is the ‘soft tissues’ - this is the network of fascia, tendons, connective tissues that run through your entire body (including organs, bones etc).

 

In Daoist internal arts these are known as the Jing Jin lines. These are the ‘channels’ as used in all the internal arts.

 

Once these start to literally re-pattern and connect in the correct way through Qigong and standing practice, they’ll join your postural muscles in supporting and moving your body.

 

This takes a long time. But this is where the body starts to get very springy, stretchy, elasticated. Your strength actually goes through the roof even though your main muscles won’t be engaged much at all.

 

So the outer big muscles will soften and relax but the deeper muscles and connective tissue will build and get very very strong. They say that a well developed internal arts practitioner has ‘steel covered in cotton’... meaning that inside tissues are extremely strong and thick while the outer muscles will be soft.

 

I remember when I was developing this at my teacher’s house. One day he decided that he didn’t like where one of his stone statues was positioned in the courtyard...

 

Bear in mind just a month earlier I saw four sweaty workers carry this thing in on a wooden pallet. It took all four of them and the use of ropes and harnesses to position it into place...

 

But my teacher (quite short, a little chubby guy in his 50’s) hugged the statue, picked it up and walked it over to its new spot like it was nothing. Then shouted at me for staring instead of practicing 😄

[freeform]

40 minutes ago, welkin said:

If you were to recommend stretch type of program

 

 

Intuflow - beginner

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFB458458F14ED867

 

Intuflow - intermediate

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2F820643A63A9D0D

 

This is great for releasing 

 

Also interesting:

 

 

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

Also interesting:

 

Just to clarify - I don’t suggest to practice what Rasmus is demonstrating here - not before you have a decent foundation. It’s just an interesting perspective on ‘strength’.

[Taoist Texts]

On 5/16/2019 at 10:35 AM, welkin said:

the safety and efficiency factors of ...  paranormal work such as healing, astral projection, telekinsesis,

Fantasies are usually quite safe to begin with. Daydreaming about things that do not exist is also quite efficient. By definition.

[Spotless]

.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

It is interesting to note:

 

In many years of speaking to students and others in conversation regarding the importance of the Basic's - and just how primary and fundamental and incredible the basic's are - NOT ONE person has ever asked something like "you stress the importance and comprehensive nature of the Basic's pretty frequently - can you expound on what you mean and include in the Basic's - i think most of us are incline to assume we understand what the basics are but you seem to include much more"

 

Please note - NOT ONE

 

What is most important about this fact is that it illustrates just how much we do not wish to open our opinions and boxed in notions to elaborations that effect our own inertia's - AND the idea that Basic's take about one class to get a full understanding of.

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

@Spotless

 

Well, better late than never -- I hope.  I´d be interested to know what you think constitutes "the basics" and how a person might best go about practicing them.  Freeform has put forth his understanding of the basics -- stretching and strengthening the body, getting into the "inner body" with standing and qigong movements.  When you say basics is this also what you mean or are you referring to something different?

[doc benway]

To address the OP -

Safety and efficacy on the Daoist path are excellent, provided you have a personal relationship with a lineage holder. Without that both safety and efficacy are poor.

Good luck!

[freeform]

42 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Freeform has put forth his understanding of the basics

 

Well I’d call this ‘building the foundation’... it’s actually not that basic even - it’s just fundamental for everything else later on.

 

In terms of basics that Spotless seems to be referring is a bit different...

 

In my lineage (and in many classical Daoist lines) the two fundamental principles that form the basis of almost all practice from beginning to advanced is Ting (a quality of absorption/internal awareness) and Sung (a type of ‘active release’)... 

[vonkrankenhaus]

9 hours ago, welkin said:

To be honest i feel my energy is drawn more towards hermetics or occult practices, the energies just seem to come naturally. But i would rather be a Jedi and i see Tao or eastern practices as that

 

These are things from MOVIES.

 

I have been seeing this kind of thing for the years I am in this forum.

 

And I see people who maybe did study some Qigong, or whatever, trying to help people who saw movies.

 

Helping them to be good consumers in modern market and advertising motivations, to be "cool", get "good product", etc.

 

Which is not human cultivation but human distraction and appropriation.

 

But that is how modern people decide what to "get" for themselves, what to "pursue".

 

It's all "okay", sure. Fun to see a movie and want to be a character in it, etc. Maybe.

 

But reality is also existing.

 

In truth, the thing you would go FROM, that one would become "better than" by learning these misunderstood traditions - THAT is the real secret. Nobody wants it. Nobody will sit with it and learn. All want to run away and be something else, to become "something" they see as having some kind of, I dunno, maybe "power" - or whatever the movies are selling. Whatever it is, it must be the opposite of what people really are. Everyone wants to leave that, deny it, ignore it, and be something else.

 

But that's where the real facts are. The useful facts.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[welkin]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I can try.

 

Often people say you shouldn’t use muscle force in Qigong - but that’s not strictly true.

 

The idea is to relax as much as possible the tension of your muscles before you collapse on the floor in a flaccid heap

 

So if you have strong muscles with let’s say 1000 muscle fibres under a very low tension then it’ll hold you up.

 

If you have 100 muscle fibres though, it will take a lot of tension to still hold you up.

 

Tension is the enemy. It stops Qi and it stops you accessing your ‘insides’.

 

So this applies to the start of building the foundation.

 

What happens over time is that as you relax the major muscles as much as possible, you’ll begin to engage the deeper postural muscles that tend to be deeper in the body.

 

For example when we hold a plank in Qigong, we try to relax the glutes, the stomach and big muscles in the back, and instead try to engage the smaller muscles all around the spine.

 

At first both the postural and movement muscles will all be triggered at the same time. But over time with standing they begin to separate.

 

As the postural muscles get stronger and stronger, you’ll be able to let go further the bigger outer muscles.

 

And there’s another aspect which is the ‘soft tissues’ - this is the network of fascia, tendons, connective tissues that run through your entire body (including organs, bones etc).

 

In Daoist internal arts these are known as the Jing Jin lines. These are the ‘channels’ as used in all the internal arts.

 

Once these start to literally re-pattern and connect in the correct way through Qigong and standing practice, they’ll join your postural muscles in supporting and moving your body.

 

This takes a long time. But this is where the body starts to get very springy, stretchy, elasticated. Your strength actually goes through the roof even though your main muscles won’t be engaged much at all.

 

So the outer big muscles will soften and relax but the deeper muscles and connective tissue will build and get very very strong. They say that a well developed internal arts practitioner has ‘steel covered in cotton’... meaning that inside tissues are extremely strong and thick while the outer muscles will be soft.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense, i will look for these sensations when i test exercises.

 

Quote

I remember when I was developing this at my teacher’s house. One day he decided that he didn’t like where one of his stone statues was positioned in the courtyard...

 

Bear in mind just a month earlier I saw four sweaty workers carry this thing in on a wooden pallet. It took all four of them and the use of ropes and harnesses to position it into place...

 

But my teacher (quite short, a little chubby guy in his 50’s) hugged the statue, picked it up and walked it over to its new spot like it was nothing. Then shouted at me for staring instead of practicing 😄

 

lol

[welkin]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Fantasies are usually quite safe to begin with. Daydreaming about things that do not exist is also quite efficient. By definition.

 

I agree with this. Luckily for some reason my dreams or imaginations come to fruition quite effortlessly sometimes

 

i will say though, i work really hard at what i want. so maybe it comes effortlessly as a result of putting in the work

Edited May 17, 2019 by welkin

[welkin]

 

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@Spotless

 

Well, better late than never -- I hope.  I´d be interested to know what you think constitutes "the basics" and how a person might best go about practicing them.  Freeform has put forth his understanding of the basics -- stretching and strengthening the body, getting into the "inner body" with standing and qigong movements.  When you say basics is this also what you mean or are you referring to something different?

 

I would like to know as well . that is the point of this thread.

[welkin]

2 hours ago, steve said:

To address the OP -

Safety and efficacy on the Daoist path are excellent, provided you have a personal relationship with a lineage holder. Without that both safety and efficacy are poor.

Good luck!

 

My perspective is something is better than nothing in this specific case if i take precaution. Doing it myself is a personal choice, though i don't worry as i believe i will meet a master at some point.

 

 

2 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

These are things from MOVIES.

 

I have been seeing this kind of thing for the years I am in this forum.

 

And I see people who maybe did study some Qigong, or whatever, trying to help people who saw movies.

 

Helping them to be good consumers in modern market and advertising motivations, to be "cool", get "good product", etc.

 

Which is not human cultivation but human distraction and appropriation.

 

But that is how modern people decide what to "get" for themselves, what to "pursue".

 

It's all "okay", sure. Fun to see a movie and want to be a character in it, etc. Maybe.

 

But reality is also existing.

 

In truth, the thing you would go FROM, that one would become "better than" by learning these misunderstood traditions - THAT is the real secret. Nobody wants it. Nobody will sit with it and learn. All want to run away and be something else, to become "something" they see as having some kind of, I dunno, maybe "power" - or whatever the movies are selling. Whatever it is, it must be the opposite of what people really are. Everyone wants to leave that, deny it, ignore it, and be something else.

 

I actually decided to care about rewatching star wars after something had brought me to these energy arts. i wasn't even a star wars type of dude. I was more Lord of the Rings.

 

idk why i'm even supposed to learn these things, all i know is i'm following the signs, and the purpose for this will be revealed after i do take this path.

 

But also come on, you can't say the Jedi seem to take more patient, moderate approach towards energy arts. i'm just trying to follow these ideals.

If i really wanted power i would probably just go off and do it on my own and be able to quite possibly do it without killing myself. But i value my life quite a lot. hence taken some precaution. Though i know it's ironic because of not having a maser. Personal choice, like i said. it's just something i have to go through.

Edited May 17, 2019 by welkin