What is wisdom-insight?

[mat black]

The question was asked of Ramana Maharshi 'what is wisdom-insight?' He answered.

"Remaining quiet is what is called wisdom-insight. To remain quiet is to resolve the mind in the Self. Telepathy, knowing past, present and future happenings and clairvoyance do not constitute wisdom-insight

 

What is the relation between desirelessness and wisdom?

"The two are not diferent; they are the same. Desirelessness is refraining from driving the mind toward any object. Wisdom means the appearance of no object. In other words, not seeking what is other than the Self is deteatchment or desirelessness. Not leaving the self is wisdom."

[Todd]

Edited February 26, 2008 by Todd

[Stigweard]

[doc benway]

It seems that insight can happen when the thought train, the discriminating and comparing mind, rests. Insight seems to come from beyond the every day mind - it's precious, sacred perhaps. I recently read something by a Sioux author from the turn of the 20th century named Ohiyesa (Charles Eastman was his 'white' name). He eloquently describes the sacred nature of silence to the Sioux. I imagine Ramana was referring more to inner silence. Ohiyesa refers more to outer silence but I think they arise mutually. Ohiyesa refers to religion as being the everyday state of reverence for that which is and it appears that there is no greater way to honor it than with silence.... so why can't I shut up!?

 

Very nice topic for inquiry Mat.

Edited February 26, 2008 by xuesheng

[Trunk]

The question was asked of Ramana Maharshi 'what is wisdom-insight?' He answered.

"Remaining quiet is what is called wisdom-insight. To remain quiet is to resolve the mind in the Self. Telepathy, knowing past, present and future happenings and clairvoyance do not constitute wisdom-insight

 

What is the relation between desirelessness and wisdom?

"The two are not diferent; they are the same. Desirelessness is refraining from driving the mind toward any object. Wisdom means the appearance of no object. In other words, not seeking what is other than the Self is deteatchment or desirelessness. Not leaving the self is wisdom."

bing-bada-boom!

Nice post.

[Todd]

Stigweard,

 

I just realized that I used "Toltec" where I meant "Tonal" a couple times in my post. I edited that. Sorry if that caused any misunderstanding.

 

...

 

 

I don't know what the I Ching is teaching us. I always kind've felt like it was laughing at me.

 

You seem to be describing the result. I actually don't think that there is a result. There are just changes. They aren't important unless we meet the Dao. Even then, they are not important-- at least not in relation to the Dao, from which they all come.

 

What is the way to the Dao? What is the way to the way? Funny question that one.

 

Do you think you know?

 

I sure don't. This is the beginning of wisdom.

[mat black]

It sems that some of the recent discussion topics have been by virtue of the subject, nearly impossible to discuss Really stretching the limits of words.

 

Master Hsuan Hua said "to have vision and yet be without views is happiness indeed"

I think that Steve's quote points to this too

the everyday state of reverence for that which is and it appears that there is no greater way to honor it than with silence....

 

Once i heard someone ask John De Ruiter how to return to the truth. He told them "You used to have the eyes of a little boy. Let them come back" It reminds me of Stigweards' metaphore

But if we can remove the static we have a clear, uninterrupted flow of information from the source.

 

Maybe this is one of the reasons why people love babies so much..........their innocence and lack of static.

 

And................I don't know how to say it........but i'm feeling a great non-specific love(?) or something through my being. Words seem inadequate, but I just also want to express gratitude to everyone for sharing............we don't meet face to face, but the exchange still seems to occur on some level through this forum.

 

So, can i please say: blessings to everyone (in every place, non-place, every direction, with a body, without a body) may all have peace.

 

Thanks. _/\_

[mat black]

Self and others - the nitty gritty

 

Sri Ramana:

"To the sage, there are no others. But what is the highest benefit that can be conferred on 'others' as we call them? It is happiness. Happiness is born of peace. Peace can reign only when there is no disrturbance by thought. As there is no mind, the sage cannot be aware of others. But the mere fact of his Self-Realization is itself enough to make all others peaceful and happy."

 

Perfection of Wisdom Sutra in 25,000 Lines:

Here a Bodhisattva gives a gift, and he does not apprehend a self, nor a reipient, nor a gift; also no reward of his giving. He surrenders that gift to all beings, but he apprehends neither beings nor self. He dedicates that gift to supreme enlightenment, but he does not apprehend any enlightenment. This is called the supra-mundane perfection of giving."

 

i take Sri Ramana's use of the term Self with a capital 'S' to equate with the Mind as in "Mind is void in essence, all things it embraces and contains" - (the song of Mahamudra)

[Stigweard]

Once i heard someone ask John De Ruiter how to return to the truth. He told them "You used to have the eyes of a little boy. Let them come back"

Maybe this is one of the reasons why people love babies so much..........their innocence and lack of static.

 

Indeed.

[Stigweard]

You seem to be describing the result. I actually don't think that there is a result. There are just changes.

 

We can talk about the road leading to infinity and the road leading back from infinity (i.e. the 'result' so to speak). In my experience this is how it works. We have cycles where we enter a merging with the oneness and then we cycle back out again.

 

This is what shamans do, they journey into the otherworld for their people and then they come back to communicate what they have experienced, traditionally through song, dance, art, etc. ... in our case here it is the words we post here at TaoBums.

 

In my own cultivation there are phases when I am profoundly connected; cycles where all my life circumstances support my spiritual progression; cycles where my consciousness is more subtle, more sublime. Then I have cycles where I am heavily involved in my own controlled folly.

 

I find the art is to be mindful of the cycles and not fight them. When my life is mundane I allow it to be mundane when it is more spiritually focused I allow it to be so without attachment.

 

They aren't important unless we meet the Dao. Even then, they are not important-- at least not in relation to the Dao, from which they all come.

 

What is the way to the Dao? What is the way to the way? Funny question that one.

 

Do you think you know?

 

I sure don't. This is the beginning of wisdom.

 

How do you meet the Dao? To try and do so creates seperation between you and Dao.

 

I know the details of my path that has brought me to my particular vantage point overlooking the infinite void. I articulate that as susinctly and as clearly as I can so that I can help others to their own particular path of insight/wisdom/power, and also so that I can get the mirroring response from the good folk here for my own relflection ... much like a bat finds its way in the dark.

[doc benway]

 

What is the way to the Dao? What is the way to the way?

How do you go to somewhere when you are already there?

 

 

 

Maybe this is one of the reasons why people love babies so much..........their innocence and lack of static.

 

And................I don't know how to say it........but i'm feeling a great non-specific love(?) or something through my being. Words seem inadequate, but I just also want to express gratitude to everyone for sharing............we don't meet face to face, but the exchange still seems to occur on some level through this forum.

 

So, can i please say: blessings to everyone (in every place, non-place, every direction, with a body, without a body) may all have peace.

 

Thanks. _/\_

That makes so much sense -re babies and young children.

 

I feel what you're saying about the community, Mat. Thanks for expressing that.

Oh, and I love the Namaste _/\_

I hope you don't mind if I share that with you!

 

 

 

 

i take Sri Ramana's use of the term Self with a capital 'S' to equate with the Mind as in "Mind is void in essence, all things it embraces and contains" - (the song of Mahamudra)

He also uses the term heart similarly - perhaps referring to the center of being the Heart of all, rather than the organ in our chest that pumps blood.

[Todd]

 

I find the art is to be mindful of the cycles and not fight them. When my life is mundane I allow it to be mundane when it is more spiritually focused I allow it to be so without attachment.

 

How do you meet the Dao? To try and do so creates seperation between you and Dao.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

 

I am merely pointing to a another way. You may or may not be interested.

 

I am pointing to the dissolution of the distinction between spiritual and mundane.

 

It is true that there is a cycle between open and closed. If we have been closed for a long time, open seems very freeing. You mentioned it in an another thread. A to B, B to A. Or B to C ala drew hempel... not sure where you were going with that, but you showed some insight when you pointed to the transition as the gate to freedom. This is what I am pointing toward. What is the transition? What is the fulcrum? Does it ever go away?

 

True spirituality is not about open or closed. It is a shift in identity from the thing that feels open or closed, to the source of life. To look at the source of life, to know it from experience, is different from being it. Ultimately, we can't not be it. THAT IS NOT USEFUL TO KNOW.

 

The question is, how do we feel? How do our body and emotions respond? Is it as if we are separate, or is it from this deeper identity? It can be hard to recognize, but that is where honesty comes in-- integrity.

 

We can talk about the ultimate all day long, and get nowhere. Where is the edge, for us? Where can we feel it in our entire being. I can't tell you where that is. I am just making suggestions.

 

Once it makes itself known, is it necessary to leave that edge? Does that edge have qualities, such as open or closed, such that it does not exist in one state or the other?

 

Xuesheng mentioned it in another post, that answers do us no good (unless they destroy a previously assumed answer). It is the questions that are really valuable. Why do we jump to provide our answers? Most importantly, why do we jump to provide our answers to ourselves?

 

This is a valuable question, though no one has to, or needs to ask it.

[sean]

To look at the source of life, to know it from experience, is different from being it. Ultimately, we can't not be it. THAT IS NOT USEFUL TO KNOW.

Enjoying your posts Todd. Makes me miss hanging out with you, it seems like forever. Just wanted to say, perhaps it is useful to know we can't not be It, at least to the degree that this concept humiliates effort and stuns the mind to stop, revealing Silence if only for a moment.

 

Best,

Sean

[mYTHmAKER]

What does spiritually focused mean. Isn't it the idea that certain things are spiritual

and others not or various degrees of spirituality.

Spiritual people are better than non spiritual people

There is nothing in life that is mundane if we are fully present in the moment with whatever we

are doing or where ever we are.

The idea of spirituality makes for seperation - new age religion.

Just be who you are where you are- really into whatever you are doing and you will be connected.

It's a 24/7 kind of thing.

How do you get in that space? Surrender, relax, allow enjoyment to creep in.

 

This is a very long post for me

Edited February 27, 2008 by mYTHmAKER

[Stigweard]

[Todd]

[Todd]

Enjoying your posts Todd. Makes me miss hanging out with you, it seems like forever. Just wanted to say, perhaps it is useful to know we can't not be It, at least to the degree that this concept humiliates effort and stuns the mind to stop, revealing Silence if only for a moment.

 

Best,

Sean

 

 

Miss ya too.

 

We're just playing word games, but I'm gonna create a difference between knowing that we can't not be it, and exploring that we can't not be it.

 

Knowing is something that the mind does when it wants to get something. It is in reference to the past, when this very thing seemed to help. We remember that we realized that we can't not be it, and nothing needs to be done but to enjoy. We then think that this realization is what caused us to rest and to enjoy. We try to recreate it. It becomes a form of knowledge.

 

The deceptive part here is that this knowledge actually seems to work, to some extent. We can point it out to others, and they seem to get a kick out of it if they are in the right mood. We point it out to ourselves, and experience similar results. What ends up happening, though, is the return continually diminishes. Both the depth and the duration of the experiences called up by such knowledge decrease.

 

This is because the knowledge is formed and wielded by the grasping mind. It actually strengthens itself by wielding the tool that it thinks will diminish itself. It wants to diminish itself, because it remembers that there were a lot of groovy feelings associated with that, and maybe its not feeling so good at the moment.

 

The other option is exploration. Exploration is not based upon memory, or at least it goes beyond memory. It goes beyond the known. The explore something we must let go of all preconceived ideas, of all mind-knowings actually. This can get a little difficult to do when we have seasoned ourselves so thoroughly in spiritual experiences and teachings. Just as soon as we start out in any direction, we are like, "Hey! I've seen this before. I just do this, and that, and I'll end up here!" Or else, we are like "Nahhh I've been down that path, and it isn't what I need right now. The way to truth is obviously over there." There is a good side to this, because eventually our only option is give up that way of thinking, even if only for a few moments.

 

Eventually, we give up looking to the mind, to past knowledge, to guide us, and we get back to the wondrous life of an explorer of this.

[Cameron]

NId1eTU3QMs

[Stigweard]

I don't disagree with this. You are describing exactly what I am describing. I merely suggest that this viewpoint is incomplete, and creates a sense of separation between the spiritual and the mundane.

 

The incompleteness lies in believing that the apparent cause is the actual cause. It is an easy mistake to make, and one that I have made countless times. It is amazing how hard this lesson seems to be to learn.

 

If we don't learn the lesson, though, then we remain identified with the thing that goes into non-ordinary awareness and back into ordinary awareness. Before both of those states is basic awareness. Basic awareness does not change. If we do not give attention to what does not change, and if it does not take over our life, then we continue to be tossed about by the comings and goings.

 

If this doesn't bother you, thats fine.

 

It is just something that you can look into if you want to.

 

 

Sorry Todd it seems you have missed my point entirely and gone off on your own tangent. Your insistence that "I am making a mistake" and that "you know it and I don't" is rather irksome (my own attachment to having people understand me I'm sorry) when you haven't even bothered to explore the implications of what I am suggesting.

 

My example of the spiritual and mundane was a poor one I admit ... and yes I am totally in accord with you that they should not be considered seperately at all. Again apologies for a poor use of terminology.

 

However, my direct experience reveals that there are indeed significantly differing perceptions and views of the world that can be achieved. These 'points of perception' are very much a bandwidth available to us and once a new 'frequency' is attuned then a completely different perception of the world is assembled.

 

In saying this however these differing views or perceptions are in fact merely facets of the one perception and that our predeliction is to integrate these frequencies into one. And yes I agree it is the awareness having those perceptions that is the true source.

 

You are disagreeing with my finger pointing to the moon. Chop my finger off and see the moon.

[Todd]

We might just have differing approaches.

 

Right now I am finding it fruitful to place my attention on awareness, to rest in my own being, and let the changes wash over me. I follow some changes, or many changes, but there is increasing confidence in the awareness. I am noticing that the changes have their own pace, that I would not like to change. When I do want to change it, it causes me suffering, and hinders the changes.

 

I make no claim to depth, especially in the assembly of completely different perceptions of the world. I merely wanted to share what I have been finding fruitful.

 

I apologize if it has caused you consternation. I also apologize if my denseness prevents me from appreciating the pearls you are presenting.

[freeform]

Stig - As an impartial observer, I can see Todd is challenging something in you... maybe you could just allow it to happen? it's at least worth a go. Be challenged and defeated, be challenged and win...

 

Todd, maybe let yourself be completely wrong - and then completely right. it feels like (to me) that you might be thinking that you're kind of in the middle, neither wrong nor right, but I'm noticing something else going on under that (!?)

 

Wisdom and seeing clearly... We tend to have preferences. Which extend to the senses. The senses pick up what we prefer for them to pick up... it's like the ignore function on this forum - we have this ignore function in place for almost everything that is available to our senses. We ignore everything that is not familiar and doesn't fit in with whatever we already 'have'.

 

Not only that, but we have a mechanism that labels things - this mechanism is there for the purpose of recognising familiar things and making the mysterious become familiar... If we're bombarded with something that is not of preference, we use this mechanism... lets say you meditate and you notice that void... notice it several times and you have a name for it, and then it becomes a 'bit', a 'thing' - not experience but some piece you're already familiar with, something you can think about, talk about, base arguments around etc...

 

Normal seeing is based on recognising what is familiar, Wisdom insight is seeing only the unfamiliar... Wisdom insight involves using the senses that are unencumbered by preferences - This means all the senses, open and focused - on nothing in particular, but everything that is available (and Everything is available!). With the senses open in this way and unified together it opens one up to deep intuition. Even though this state of attainment is very rare these days, it's not 'Wisdom insight' just yet...

 

And................I don't know how to say it........but i'm feeling a great non-specific love(?) or something through my being. Words seem inadequate, but I just also want to express gratitude to everyone for sharing............we don't meet face to face, but the exchange still seems to occur on some level through this forum.

 

So, can i please say: blessings to everyone (in every place, non-place, every direction, with a body, without a body) may all have peace.

 

Thanks. _/\_

 

I'm sending you my warmest, kindest regards - Imagine it as a hug that melts through the surface to who You really are.

[sean]

Miss ya too.

 

We're just playing word games, but I'm gonna create a difference between knowing that we can't not be it, and exploring that we can't not be it.

 

Knowing is something that the mind does when it wants to get something. It is in reference to the past, when this very thing seemed to help. We remember that we realized that we can't not be it, and nothing needs to be done but to enjoy. We then think that this realization is what caused us to rest and to enjoy. We try to recreate it. It becomes a form of knowledge.

 

...

 

This is because the knowledge is formed and wielded by the grasping mind. It actually strengthens itself by wielding the tool that it thinks will diminish itself.

 

...

 

The other option is exploration. Exploration is not based upon memory, or at least it goes beyond memory. It goes beyond the known. The explore something we must let go of all preconceived ideas, of all mind-knowings actually.

 

...

 

Eventually, we give up looking to the mind, to past knowledge, to guide us, and we get back to the wondrous life of an explorer of this.

Todd, reading your post, it speaks directly to my experience. Playing with "there is nothing I can do" the I likes that little samadhi buzz, how could I not be tempted? But like you say, the high diminishes, often followed by a scrambling for a new way to feel the vastness. This year in Mississippi beer has been working ok, what's the difference between samadhi and drunkenness? "What never changes" drives this exploration deeper, albeit dryly in times. This isn't what I signed up for, haaha, we are just playing with words, like you say. I feel like I know what you are pointing at, but I can already see my self grasping the future connotation of exploration, you know?. Another way to postpone the inevitable.

 

Best,

Sean

[Stigweard]

Stig - As an impartial observer, I can see Todd is challenging something in you... maybe you could just allow it to happen? it's at least worth a go. Be challenged and defeated, be challenged and win...

 

You are very right and I was to the best of my ability trying to follow exactly this process, allowing Todd's perception to erode some of my fixations. You may have noticed that I have a certain amount of attachment to speaking clearly and being understood. More self-importance to resolve obviously

 

Wisdom and seeing clearly... We tend to have preferences. Which extend to the senses. The senses pick up what we prefer for them to pick up... it's like the ignore function on this forum - we have this ignore function in place for almost everything that is available to our senses. We ignore everything that is not familiar and doesn't fit in with whatever we already 'have'.

 

Not only that, but we have a mechanism that labels things - this mechanism is there for the purpose of recognising familiar things and making the mysterious become familiar... If we're bombarded with something that is not of preference, we use this mechanism... lets say you meditate and you notice that void... notice it several times and you have a name for it, and then it becomes a 'bit', a 'thing' - not experience but some piece you're already familiar with, something you can think about, talk about, base arguments around etc...

 

Normal seeing is based on recognising what is familiar, Wisdom insight is seeing only the unfamiliar... Wisdom insight involves using the senses that are unencumbered by preferences - This means all the senses, open and focused - on nothing in particular, but everything that is available (and Everything is available!). With the senses open in this way and unified together it opens one up to deep intuition. Even though this state of attainment is very rare these days, it's not 'Wisdom insight' just yet...

 

Thank you for your point of view, I am not sure whether you meant to do it but it very much mirrors what I was trying to communicate.

 

 

 

What's the difference between samadhi and drunkenness?

 

Sobriety

[Todd]

Freeform,

 

I like your way of describing a road to wisdom-insight. Not much to hold onto there. One can go through the senses, or beyond the senses... either way, basic awareness is living this life, and it is in touch with so much more than we can imagine. I guess we pick our poison to let it in, to let it catch on to its own inexhaustible mystery.

 

About being wrong... You give some good advice. That advice follows itself, and I find myself in wonder. The natural movement of wonder seems to be expression. This expression passes through conditioning that remains. It is through allowing this expression, and letting it go, that the expression becomes clearer. I have found that realizations without some form of expression die quickly.

 

This is not to say that the form of expression I am engaged in is the best for me right now. I am still learning to crawl. I learn by being completely wrong, and then by staying in what that reveals. I cannot force the wrongness, and I cannot prevent the movement to "rightness". I place my attention on the increasing movement of truth into the foreground, with all of the messiness that that entails.

 

Its a pretty wacky ride. I've got a lot to (un)learn though.

 

Here's a cool chapter from the Taoteching (61).. not sure what anyone will get out of it though:

 

The great state is a watershed

the confluence of the world

the female of the world

through stillness the female conquers the male

in order to be still

she needs to be lower

the great state that is lower

govers the small state

the small state that is lower

is governed by the great state

some lower themselves to govern

some lower themselves to be governed

the great state's only desire

is to unite and lead others

the small state's only desire

is to join and serve others

for both to achieve their desire

the greater needs to be lower

Edited February 27, 2008 by Todd

[Todd]

Another way to postpone the inevitable.