Neiye - Section 2 - The Nature of the Heart

[dawei]

Section 2: The nature of the heart

 

Eno:

The form of the heart [xin] is
Spontaneously full and replete,
Spontaneously born and complete.
It loses this form through
care and joy, pleasure and anger, desire and profit-seeking.
If are able to rid itself of
care and joy, pleasure and anger, desire and profit-seeking,

the heart [xin] returns to completion.

 

The natural feelings of the heart [xin]
cleave to rest and calm;
Don’t trouble them, don’t derange them,
and harmony will spontaneously be perfect.

So gleaming! As though just beside.
So dim! As though ungraspable.
So remote! As though exhausting the far limit [Wuji].
Its basis is near at hand; daily we draw its force of virtue [De].

 

Linnell:

凡 心 之 形 Always : the form of the heart/mind [xin] is
自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing,
自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete.
其 所 以 失 之 The reason that you lose it
必 以 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit.
能 去 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 If you can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit,
心 乃 反 濟 Your heart/mind [xin] then returns [to its original nature] successfully.

 

彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart/mind [xin]
利 安 以 寧 Benefits from calmness and the tranquility that comes from it.
勿 煩 勿 亂 Do not be troubled, do not be confused,
和 乃 自 成 And harmony is then naturally achieved.

晢 晢 乎 Is it very bright?
如 在 於 側 As though located right by your side.
忽 忽 乎 Is it very easy to overlook?
如 將 不 得 As though it will never be attained.
渺 渺 乎 Is it very remote and indistinct?
如 窮 無 極 As though utterly without boundaries [Wuji].
此 稽 不 遠 To examine this, you need not go far :
日 用 其 德 You use De daily.

 

Roth: 

-- Section 3 --

1. All the forms of the mind [xin]
2. Are naturally infused and filled with it [the vital essence],
3. Are naturally generated and developed [because of] it.
4. It is lost
5. Inevitably because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire, and profit-seeking.
6. If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,
7. Your mind [xin] will just revert to equanimity.
8. The true condition of the mind [xin]
9. Is that it finds calmness beneficial and, by it, attains repose.
10. Do not disturb it, do not disrupt it
11. And harmony will naturally develop. 

-- Section 4 --

1. Clear! as though right by your side.
2. Vague! as though it will not be attained.
3. Indescribable! as though beyond the limitless [wuji].
4. The test of this is not far off:
5. Daily we make use of its inner power [De].

 

Shazi Daoren:

-- Section 3 --

All forms of the Heart [xin]
are naturally infused, naturally filled,
naturally generated, naturally completed.
They can become lost, out of place
Due to sorrow, happiness,
joy, anger, desire, or profit-seeking.
If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,
joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,
your Heart [xin] will return to its natural flow.
The natural emotion of the Heart [xin]
is beneficial calmness and tranquility.
Do not vex it, do not disturb it,
and harmony will naturally develop.

-- Section 4 --

Clear! As though right by your side.
Vague! As though it will not be attained.
Indescribable! As though beyond the limitless.
The proof of this is not far off [Wuji]:
daily we make use of its inner power [De]

 

Yueya:

-- Section 3 --

All the forms of the heart-mind [xin]
Are naturally replete and nourished by it [vital essence],
Are naturally generated and grow to completion [because of] it.
It is lost because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, and
desire for profit.
If you can cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, and
desire for profit,
Your heart-mind [xin] will return to equanimity.
The disposition of such a heart-mind [xin]
Is that it benefits from calmness to attain repose.
Do not disturb it; do not disrupt it
Then harmony will naturally develop.

-- Section 4 --

Clear! as though right by your side;
Vague! as though it will not be attained;
Indiscernible! as though beyond the limitless [Wuji]
The investigation of this is not remote –
Daily we make use of its inner power [De]

 

Reid:

23 凡心之刑,
Invariably, the heart-mind’s decisions {4}

24 自充自盈,
Naturally occupy it, naturally fill it.
25 自生自成。
They spontaneously arise, and spontaneously ripen.
26 其所以失之,
They can become wayward
27 必以憂樂喜怒欲利。
As a result of sorrow, pleasure, euphoria,{5} anger, desire, and avarice.
28 能去憂樂喜怒欲利,
If you can abandon sorrow, pleasure, euphoria, anger, desire, and avarice,
29 心乃反濟。
The heart will return back to the shore (of calm and stability) {6}
30 彼心之情,
It is the nature of the heart and mind
31 利安以寧,
To benefit from tranquility and relaxation.
32 勿煩勿亂,
Do not agitate it, do not disturb it,
33 和乃自成。
And harmony will naturally perfect it.
34 折折乎如在於側,
At rest! {7}   As though right at your side;
35 忽忽乎如將不得,
Fleeting! Trying to snatch it, it is not obtained;
36 渺渺乎如窮無極。
Vast and Distant! It is void of all limits.
37 此稽不 遠,
This investigation does not take place far off
38 日用其德。
But in the daily application of this Virtue.

 

{4} “Xing 刑 punishment/decision” is often replaced here with “xing 形 forms” in accordance with line 103 of the Nei Ye, believing 刑 to be the typo. However, 刑 appears more consistently in related lines of the Nei Ye and Xin Shu Xia. See also, line 115-120 of the Xin Shu Xia. It could be further argued that NY103 should be changed to “xing 刑 decision” in light of this consistency and the Legalist environment in which these texts appear, where it would seem natural to impute the concept of regulations when discussing mental faculties. See Introduction: Will, Intention and Thought.
{5} I have translated xi (喜) as euporia, following the lead of Elisa Rossi in “Shen: Psycho-Emotional Aspects of Chinese Medicine (2002).” I have also translated le (樂) as pleasure based on Rossi’s suggestion that the “joy” of this character is a harmonious and peaceful one related to rituals and ceremonies (the same character also means music).
{6} “濟 aid; ferry across” is often replaced with “齊 evenness” by removing the radical for water
{7} Zhe Zhe 折折 (at rest) is usually replaced here with zhe zhe 晢晢, meaning “bright.” The meaning of 折折, and thereby also the subsequent line (where 忽忽 fleeting/quick is usually translated as “vague,” also meaning “overlooked,” to contrast with “bright”), is revealed when 折折 is understood as “leisurely” through the following example in the Liji, Tan Gong I: 吉事，欲其折折爾... 吉事雖止，不怠... 鼎鼎爾則小人 “It is desirable that festive affairs be carried out in a leisurely way... Though festive affairs may be delayed, they should not be transacted negligently… too much ease shows a small man” (trans. Legge).

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

凡 心 之 形 Always : the form of the heart/mind is

here the keyword is 形 which is an external form, but in ctext it is 刑 (both xing, interchangable) which is normally punishment, but in this case it has a rarer meaning of a (moral) standard. In verse 1 it was jing animating the world, in verse 2 it is xing providing a moral compass. Translators misunderstand this verse as an instruction to reach a personal harmony (your heart), but it is the moral standard of the nation meant here.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart/mind

also this heart it is not the ordinary heart, but the one within the ordinary (according to NY people have 2 hearts). Again the depth of meaning is lost on the translators.

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

here the keyword is 形 which is an external form, but in ctext it is 刑 (both xing, interchangable) which is normally punishment, but in this case it has a rarer meaning of a (moral) standard. In verse 1 it was jing animating the world, in verse 2 it is xing providing a moral compass. Translators misunderstand this verse as an instruction to reach a personal harmony (your heart), but it is the moral standard of the nation meant here.

 

I've been trying to fit that with the rest of the verse but it doesn't really make sense to me.  can you explain why every other translator takes it the other way?  Also presumably there are Chinese commentaries which give the right context - or are there none.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

Also presumably there are Chinese commentaries which give the right context - or are there none.

None) Chinese really do not care much about understanding. This link just brushes the discrepancy away, saying that  刑 is 形 and that it.

http://202.107.212.154:8088/datalib/2003/Life/DL/DL-20031212132414

they don't ask why these homonyms are used in different places differently.

 

Quote

can you explain why every other translator takes it the other way? 

 

Because they are amateurs.)

Quote

 

I've been trying to fit that with the rest of the verse but it doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I will try to post a correct transl.

[Taoist Texts]

Actually as an homage to the trailblazer Linnel lets do this:

 

Linnell:

凡 心 之 刑 the common heart has a standard
自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing,
自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete.
其 所 以 失 之 The reason that it loses the standard
必 以 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit.
能 去 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 If the heart can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit,
心 乃 反 濟 the heart then returns  to being useful.
彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart
利 安 以 寧 is profitable and peaceful hence tranquil.
勿 煩 勿 亂  when not  troubled,   not  confused,
和 乃 自 成 then harmonious (so the standard) is naturally achieved.

[dawei]

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

also this heart it is not the ordinary heart, but the one within the ordinary (according to NY people have 2 hearts). Again the depth of meaning is lost on the translators.

 

NY... I assume you mean New York people 

[dawei]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Actually as an homage to the trailblazer Linnel lets do this:

 

Linnell:

凡 心 之 刑 the common heart has a standard
自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing,
自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete.
其 所 以 失 之 The reason that it loses the standard
必 以 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit.
能 去 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 If the heart can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit,
心 乃 反 濟 the heart then returns  to being useful.
彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart
利 安 以 寧 is profitable and peaceful hence tranquil.
勿 煩 勿 亂  when not  troubled,   not  confused,
和 乃 自 成 then harmonious (so the standard) is naturally achieved.

 

刑 has some overlap to law 法 (fa), which 'standard' makes sense. 

 

And maybe we need to see 形 (xing) in a different light too. 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Actually as an homage to the trailblazer Linnel lets do this:

 

Linnell:

凡 心 之 刑 the common heart has a standard
自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing,
自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete.
其 所 以 失 之 The reason that it loses the standard
必 以 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit.
能 去 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 If the heart can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit,
心 乃 反 濟 the heart then returns  to being useful.
彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart
利 安 以 寧 is profitable and peaceful hence tranquil.
勿 煩 勿 亂  when not  troubled,   not  confused,
和 乃 自 成 then harmonious (so the standard) is naturally achieved.

 

 

Thanks.

 

i still have the problem of being able to relate to this section on the basis of the natural condition of the heart/mind - full, overflowing, naturally born and complete.  This seems like a description of the 'natural state' of being unclouded by emotions.  But in terms of a moral standard for the common folk I don't get it.  Is this feed the stomach and starve the head (ish)???

[Taoist Texts]

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

This seems like a description of the 'natural state' of being unclouded by emotions. 

exactly

39 minutes ago, Apech said:

But in terms of a moral standard for the common folk I don't get it. 

the natural state is the standard

39 minutes ago, Apech said:

Is this feed the stomach and starve the head (ish)???

precisely. the Taoist king keeps his people well fed and free of temptations.

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

the common heart has a standard
自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing,
自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete.

 

This brought to mind passages from DDJ that reference the newborn child. Not only a reference to unspoiled innocence but also reference to state of the newborn heart-mind. From DDJ 10 ...

 

In embracing the One with your soul,

Can you never forsake the Tao?
In controlling your vital force to achieve gentleness,

Can you become like the new-born child?

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

then harmonious (so the standard) is naturally achieved.

 

I like the notion of this relating to the common people. It suggests there is a level that is attainable by all through maintaining this state of natural calmness. So, standard in the sense of naturally attainable by all rather than something imposed.

 

Beginning to see the Neiye a little bit differently.

[dawei]

FYI:  I included the lines that Linnell and Eno keep as a part of this section.   I will repeat it in the next so everyone starts the same.

 

Added:  At ctext.org, this 3rd section concludes their Section 1.

[Geof Nanto]

For me, the Neiye is a powerful aid for my own inner work. A catalyst for inner change. Thus discussions about exactly what it meant in the context of ancient China are of secondary importance for me. What I do know is that although our society is far different from then and our intellectual knowledge has mushroomed, our human emotions are little changed from that time.  Hence the timeless essence of the Neiye is its emotional and spiritual content.  I hold the text in a certain reverence. That way it reveals its essence to my heart, through my heart.  It helps bring order to my somewhat chaotic xin.

 

I value all the people who have sought to bring its wisdom to us Westerners. (Even Taoist Texts with his rather arrogant manner occasionally has what I consider as valuable insights.) All these people have my respect. None of them are idiots. I know Roth, for instance, has spent at least ten years on his examination of the Neiye.  
 

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Yueya said:

For me, the Neiye is a powerful aid for my own inner work. A catalyst for inner change. Thus discussions about exactly what it meant in the context of ancient China are of secondary importance for me. What I do know is that although our society is far different from then and our intellectual knowledge has mushroomed, our human emotions are little changed from that time.  Hence the timeless essence of the Neiye is its emotional and spiritual content.  I hold the text in a certain reverence. That way it reveals its essence to my heart, through my heart.  It helps bring order to my somewhat chaotic xin.

 

I value all the people who have sought to bring its wisdom to us Westerners. (Even Taoist Texts with his rather arrogant manner occasionally has what I consider as valuable insights.) All these people have my respect. None of them are idiots. I know Roth, for instance, has spent at least ten years on his examination of the Neiye.  
 

 

 

I'm still holding to the both/and position - a ruler/sage has to know themselves in order to know other people.  For instance a subjugated person does not have a full, replete, naturally born and complete heart/mind.  The people are not free from emotions.  So I conclude that the Neiye is talking about genuine benefit to all from following a natural way and so on.

 

 

[dawei]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

FYI:  I included the lines that Linnell and Eno keep as a part of this section.   I will repeat it in the next so everyone starts the same.

 

Added:  At ctext.org, this 3rd section concludes their Section 1.

 

I've looked at these opening lines of ctext section 1, our section 1-3 several times and matched up some phrasing to ctext. Very few are unique, if at any.  

 

Here is my keyword summary of the sections:

凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence of creatures –Jing
Heaven / Earth
Ghosts / Spirits
Center of Chest
Sage

 

Qi of the citizens
Heaven / Abyss / Ocean
Residing in self
Calmed by De
welcomed by intent
Maintain and not lose = Developed De
De develops, Wisdom arises = bounty of the the ten thousand is attained

 

凡 心 之 形 Always : the form of the heart/mind is
Form of the heart
Natural vs reasons you lose it
Leave behind the reasons to return to natural state
Nature of that heart [natural state] naturally achieves harmony
by your side, over looked without boundaries (Wuji)
Use De daily

 

my comments focusing on Linnell:

1. 凡 means all. 凡 物 之 精  means, All creatures have an essence... so, the essence of all creatures. 

2. 精 - Jing.  This seems much different than later uses of Jing in the sense that it is not a procreation thing.  It is akin to Qi.

3. see: https://ctext.org/liji/ji-yi?searchu=物之精&searchmode=showall#result .  part 18-19.

4. Thus, the Qi of the citizens... seems a major overlook as citizen (Ren) will be mentioned in many later sections.  (thanks TT).  The 'thus' or even 'therefore' seems not best.  Maybe, 'In the same way'...  the shift from Jing to Qi has no transition.  

5. Developed De: this can just be completed or arrived at a state.  That the 'bounty of the ten thousand is attained' sounds more  cosmological, this can be a natural outcome of life. 

6. Form of the heart as potentially, 'standard' is an interesting direction to look at in future sections as form is used a few times later and it is not the character for 'standard'.  

7. Wuji mentioned is in next section for most authors.

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

I'm still holding to the both/and position - a ruler/sage has to know themselves in order to know other people.  For instance a subjugated person does not have a full, replete, naturally born and complete heart/mind.  The people are not free from emotions.  So I conclude that the Neiye is talking about genuine benefit to all from following a natural way and so on.

 

 

 

Perhaps a little tangential but somewhat relevant......

 

Many years ago I worked for a while as a Zen shiatsu practitioner, a healing modality which derives its theoretical framing from the same Chinese model as does TCM. Back in 1995 I did an interview with my teacher for a magazine and in it asked him this question:

 

“The thing that Impressed me about your teaching was that it was based on treating people here in Sydney and getting results with the type of illnesses people have now, rather than, for example, ancient China.”

 

He replied: “Yes, a very, very important idea. If only this concept gets across to people, then I think I may have accomplished all I want to do in interrelating to medical systems or creating medical systems. Applying a form of therapy to an individual has to be based on what their actual need is. If we look at China there is not only a different culture, but structurally they're different. Their body shape is different, the food is different, and so is their environment. The definition of what is feeling good maybe is different from one culture to another. So you might make a person feel better within Chinese terms but not within the cultural demands of Australia. To summarise, one not only has to understand traditional medical practice     within the cultural context of the country in which it arose (that is, why it's there and what it's used for) but also one must understand it well enough to be able to isolate the actual essence of it and then reintegrate into the situation you're actually working in.”

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, Yueya said:

... one must understand it well enough to be able to isolate the actual essence of it and then reintegrate into the situation you're actually working in.

 

I think this is an important notion to keep in mind as we work towards having daoist principles find meaning in our various cultures in contemporary times. 

 

Seems like this is what TDB is all about.

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

On 19/05/2019 at 2:06 PM, OldDog said:

 

I think this is an important notion to keep in mind as we work towards having daoist principles find meaning in our various cultures in contemporary times. 

 

Seems like this is what TDB is all about.

 

 

 

Yes, for me and for some (hopefully) many other Dao Bums members such insight is important. (And also for all the other ancient traditions people are interested in, not just Daoism.)  But I often find engagement here difficult. Discussion proceeds much faster than I’d like and interest seems to rapidly fade. Also, I sometimes find the number of disparate voices off-putting.  Yet I try to use my engagement with all of this difference productively; like mixing chaotic and disparate ingredients in an inner alchemical cauldron, out of which a core of stillness slowly solidifies within me. I call it an alchemical process because it’s certainly no straightforward linear progression, and the best of it seems to happen largely 'self-so'.   

 

I personally would like to see this Neiye discussion going at a slower pace by allowing a little more time between each new verse, and for discussion to proceed with greater harmony. However, as that's not the usual way of Dao Bums, I’m OK to go along with however it proceeds. I always have the option to participate (or not) as I find appropriate. 

 

[OldDog]

12 hours ago, Yueya said:

... no straightforward linear progression, and the best of it seems to happen largely 'self-so'.   

 

That really strikes a chord with me. We often expect things to be explicit, so that in just reading a text all will be made clear. But it does not seem to work that way ... at least for me ... considerable rumination is often required. I think each of us has to develop our own understanding ... our own reality, as it were. We build that understanding ... thst reality ... by trying to fit the pieces of our experience and understanding together in what for us appears as a coherent pattern. This is something each of us must do. It is part of what it means to be creatures with a rational mind.

[dawei]

I've got no preference on pace, except if I see discussion stop then I assume that means, move on.  

 

My main thought on what is being shared is, our reality is always going to change no matter how long we decide to ponder the moment.   To me, that means whatever I am pondering now will be soon different and then how important was each ponder; the first seemed insightful but the second disproves that.  The third will make both seem wrong.  I wonder when this pondering will just stop 

[dawei]

Just now, dawei said:

I've got no preference on pace, except if I see discussion stop then I assume that means, move on.  

 

BTW: My three chapter recap post above was an intentional slowdown to the next chapter... 

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

Yes, for me and for some (hopefully) many other Dao Bums members such insight is important. (And also for all the other ancient traditions people are interested in, not just Daoism.)  But I often find engagement here difficult. Discussion proceeds much faster than I’d like and interest seems to rapidly fade. Also, I sometimes find the number of disparate voices off-putting.  Yet I try to use my engagement with all of this difference productively; like mixing chaotic and disparate ingredients in an inner alchemical cauldron, out of which a core of stillness slowly solidifies within me. I call it an alchemical process because it’s certainly no straightforward linear progression, and the best of it seems to happen largely 'self-so'.   

 

I personally would like to see this Neiye discussion going at a slower pace by allowing a little more time between each new verse, and for discussion to proceed with greater harmony. However, as that's not the usual way of Dao Bums, I’m OK to go along with however it proceeds. I always have the option to participate (or not) as I find appropriate. 

 

 

 

I agree - I think there is a lot of depth in these stanzas and we have only scratched the surface.

[Bindi]

I've been struggling with the 'citizen' issue for a few days, and finally saw my way forward in the Chinese cultural notion of the sage-king, which Apech alluded to earlier. 

 

The quote below frames it in a way I can start to understand:

 

Daoist philosophy characteristically contrasts the Cosmic Dao in its naturalness, spontaneity, and eternal rhythmic fluctuation with the artificiality, constraint, and stasis of human society and culture. Humanity will flourish only to the extent that the human way (rendao) is attuned to or harmonized with the Cosmic Dao, in part through the wise rule of sage-kings who practice wuwei, or the virtue of taking no action that is not in accord with nature.

 

https://www.britannica.com/story/what-is-the-difference-between-daoism-and-confucianism

 

 

[dawei]

This was renamed to Section 2 now that I am following Eno's sections (18) instead of Roth's sections (26).  There were no alterations to the section as they all had the same break.  

 

Added:  There are alternations now in place to keep them parallel.