Wu Wei = non doing

[cold]

My Aunt 82 years old is in a hospitol dying, may pass on any day.

My Uncle (my mothers brother) is 85, a retired police man, an alcholic, almost completely dependent on my Aunt, and in denial of her condition.

They live 850 miles away from me, and my Aunt has been ill on and off since November 07, in and out of hospitol.

My Uncle has a gun, pistol next to his bed.

During my last visit 2 weeks ago I tried unsuccessfully to have him give up his gun.

I realize it is a type of freedom a form of control to have a gun...

But I am concerned about the possibility of he using it to take his life after my Aunt passes on.

One thought is to repalce the bullets with blanks?

I envision powder burns, and possible dental damage?

Any ideas?

thanks

cold

[joeblast]

A blank at point blank range will more than likely still kill you, unfortunately...

[cold]

A blank at point blank range will more than likely still kill you, unfortunately...

 

Hmm... thanks

[doc benway]

My Aunt 82 years old is in a hospitol dying, may pass on any day.

My Uncle (my mothers brother) is 85, a retired police man, an alcholic, almost completely dependent on my Aunt, and in denial of her condition.

They live 850 miles away from me, and my Aunt has been ill on and off since November 07, in and out of hospitol.

My Uncle has a gun, pistol next to his bed.

During my last visit 2 weeks ago I tried unsuccessfully to have him give up his gun.

I realize it is a type of freedom a form of control to have a gun...

But I am concerned about the possibility of he using it to take his life after my Aunt passes on.

One thought is to repalce the bullets with blanks?

I envision powder burns, and possible dental damage?

Any ideas?

thanks

cold

I'm very sorry to hear of your situation. If you truly think that you could replace the bullets with blanks, what would prevent you from removing the bullets entirely and not replacing them or getting the gun away entirely? The ethical question of suicide in this circumstance is a difficult one and if it is your wish to prevent that you may need to consider getting a law enforcement officer or mental health professional involved...

Good luck

Edited February 20, 2008 by xuesheng

[cold]

Thanks to JOEBLAST i have looked further into the use of blanks and ruled them out as a possibility.

 

He would immediatley notice if the gun was missing I am sure he has extra bullets but i do not know where.

 

I plan now to visit soon and make an appt. for him with his dr. explaining my concerns and following up with the dr. as needed.

 

Thanks

[joeblast]

no prob...I've just heard stories of people having thought along those lines and accidentally having killed themselves or others. there's still considerable discharge, just no projectile.

 

do you think you could just openly and honestly voice your concerns to him?

[Chanwu]

If someone wants to commit suicide, then they will do so no matter how hard you try.

 

So if he tries to shoot himself with blanks... what stops him from going drunk and falling asleep with a plastic bag over his head? He will eventually just fall asleep from the carbondioxide.

 

All you can do is giving the emotional support you can. Has he spoken about suicide? You may just be worrying in vain.

 

Don't let him manipulate your good will by threatening to commit suicide or stuff like that, that's just a viscious circle. If you really care you will talk to him and be very straight forward about things.

 

But as he's so old and got alcohol problems at such an old age, then it may be hard to change those patterns...

 

I hope it all turns out well...

[Eric23]

My father is in the autumn of his life and slowly loosing his faculties. It's a very scary time for him as well as me. Losing one's independence is a very big deal to him, a very big deal. Not being able to care for ones self is extremely disturbing, and leads to some interesting thought processes. I managed to get my father's doctor to perscribe hospice care. There is a illness present that makes hospice a necessary step in our case. With hospice comes social workers and a network of professional help. If you can tap into some professional help I would recommend it. Talking about suicide is a fairly common behavior pattern with seniors facing the end of their life, unfortunately I've heard it. If your aunt is in hospice, you might be able to get some help from her hospice team. The end of one's life is a very profound experience, but at the same time it's loaded with all sorts of unexpected surprises, unbelievable anxioties and emotions you really can't and don't know or understand. If you had told me a year ago how this process might go, I would never had believed it. What's the family situation? Is your mom able to help? Cousins? This is one area where having a profession care giver who's seen a number of these cases helps and comforts. Best of luck.

[Stigweard]

Just a point of focus to your dilema ... Wu Wei does not necessarily mean 'non doing', but rather to 'do nothing' beyond one's own nature, beyond one's virtue.

 

If you have a practice that stills the mind then work with it until your mind is quiet and subtle. Then sincerely ask yourself "Where lies the path of the greatest good for everyone involved?" Gently listen to what forms in your mind and pay attention to what messages life brings you.

 

This may help ... I hope it does.

 

Blessings.

[minkus]

Not nice to hear about the situation you are in cold. I see the people in the rest of this thread posted some very realistic and clear answers.

 

I would advise not to change bullets or any manipulation of the gun as you can get in trouble yourself when he notices. When this would happen he will loose trust in you wich is the only real weapon you have to convince him with.

 

Out of personal experience i know that when 1 of the 2 partners of a couple dies who been togheter most of there life it is possible the other partner dies soon afterwords. Not necessary because they commit suicide but because they loose there will and motivation to live and "let loose" of life. In my case my uncle died 2 weeks after the death of my aunt because he stopped eating and only drank strong alcoholical drinks. In nature you can see that parrots who loose there partner often also dont live long lives anymore.

 

I dont say this is how it will run in your case and i dont wonna dissapoint you at all but sometimes reality can be tough. In your post i read that both your aunt and uncle are well over 80 years old wich is a factor also.

 

I know its not the most cheerfull post but nomatter what happens i wish you best.

Edited February 21, 2008 by minkus

[cold]

A bit of history, my father passed peacefully at home three and a half years ago after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer which spread to other organs, he survived a remarkable 11 months after diagnosis, 3 months or less was general expectation.

I spent a lot of time with him as he underwent chemotherapy and accupuncture... was there almost every day - treatment. He was strong in spirit and body... In the final weeks he became very ill and the Doctor pulled me aside at his last chemo treatment appt. and explained that was it... my dad was to ill to continue chemo...

Did i want to tell him? i declined of course, and shortly afterwards my family gathered as the news was given.

"Treatment is of no use, I am arranging for hospice, you have 3 weeks to 3 months...

That was on a Thursday, Sunday after Church, he was saying goodbye to friends explaining he was going home in a few weeks, i (wrongly?) corrected him saying no it could be months... he retired to a hospitol bed in the family room of his home, i stayed with him many nights, and daily visits from a puzzled hospice nurse continued, he is ready she remarked often... is something bothering him? it could be any time... some nights towards the end were real tough... finally on advice frriends and family gathered around on a Sunday Afternoon, wishing him well and goodbye, Monday (the next day) afternoon iwas awoken by my brother, get up its time, confused and tired, i had spent the last few nights in vigil, i came to him and he passsed on surronded by family, a little better than three weeks after being told...

i have struggled since did i out of selfishness - fear contribute to his suffering?

about the same time a friends mother passed, and the next night her father shot himself in the head... he made it the hospitol and survived another 6 hours...

My uncle has said many times do not recusitate, signed the papers only to change his mind just before surgery. I have been depresssed and so know well the signs and symptoms, one of which is certainly a feeling of hopelessness, i have faced this in fits and spurts... several weeks ago asking for the gun expressing my concerns, his reply "DON'T TOUCH THE GUN!"

i have talked it over with family you know the elphant in the room...

Passing on from a broken heart or spirit is one thing, even an accidental overdose can be somewhat ignored, but my o my what pain one leaves behind when one violently takes their own life...

My uncle is in denial, telling my aunt to hang on you got a couple of good years left...

i will be leaving soon for a visit, and trust (pray) i will know what to and when - how to ...

the biggest struggle is clearly what is correct...

thank you one and all

cold

[exorcist_1699]

Real "Wu Wei" will inevitably give rise to qi, an omnipotent medicine against most disease and aging; it does not imply in any sense doing nothing , which , can only lead us to a dead end.

 

The said truth is , we are like people who live in a place with a gold-mine underneath , but ignorant of it , and always complain about how poor and miserable their life are.

Edited February 21, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[joeblast]

uhh....good luck? what's the proper thing to say?

[hagar]

Your experiences reflects many of the experieces I had when I have faced death in my family.

 

Right this moment, my grandmother is dying on the other side of the country, yet I'm not there.

 

Like you, I felt shame for my fear of death, witnessing my stepmother die of cancer. The face of death, the smell of death, the uncanny transformations of the body. The sorrow, the surrealistic intimacy between the beautiful sunshine outside and the unknown facing the person infront of you.

Death is very seldom beautiful, rarely serene, and often does not bring closure.

Please do not feel shame or guilt for your feelings towards it, and your reactions. I did, and it only made me not deal with my grief.

 

As for your uncle, noone wants to take their life. They just do not want to be in pain anymore.

If you can, sit with him and let him hold his pain in some way together with you, be in that space, he will change. If you can, even for one instant let him know that you recongnize and accept his pain, fear, aloneness, despair, something will shift. Most times it will not show, and many times it means receiving blame, anger, even hate, or indifference. But just being in that space for him will do more than any missing gun.

 

It is never about the gun.

[cold]

Your experiences reflects many of the experieces I had when I have faced death in my family.

 

Right this moment, my grandmother is dying on the other side of the country, yet I'm not there.

 

Like you, I felt shame for my fear of death, witnessing my stepmother die of cancer. The face of death, the smell of death, the uncanny transformations of the body. The sorrow, the surrealistic intimacy between the beautiful sunshine outside and the unknown facing the person infront of you.

Death is very seldom beautiful, rarely serene, and often does not bring closure.

Please do not feel shame or guilt for your feelings towards it, and your reactions. I did, and it only made me not deal with my grief.

 

As for your uncle, noone wants to take their life. They just do not want to be in pain anymore.

If you can, sit with him and let him hold his pain in some way together with you, be in that space, he will change. If you can, even for one instant let him know that you recongnize and accept his pain, fear, aloneness, despair, something will shift. Most times it will not show, and many times it means receiving blame, anger, even hate, or indifference. But just being in that space for him will do more than any missing gun.

 

It is never about the gun.

 

 

WOW

i am humbled and grateful

 

That is beautiful...

 

and so right on!

 

Thanks so much!

 

cold

[WhiteTiger]

WOW

i am humbled and grateful

 

That is beautiful...

 

and so right on!

 

Thanks so much!

 

cold

 

That is well put, i also agree with this.

 

It is believed that people have the choice to choose what they want. Because of ignorance and not knowing knowledge and/or wisdom they make bad discussions . When you really know some knowledge and/or wisdom share in hopes they will learn from there mistakes. You can't give up. I can't give up on loving my father even though he has emotionally, mentally, and through actions back stabbed me, wear i feel i can not deal with such pain or get over it. But i still try and love him and not give up on him. When it comes down to it, though its damn tough to deal with things like this. Maybe you think I'm off base here, because I am not talking about death. but i really am. My father Gave up loving my father in respect and made his own choice to go against his own fathers choice.

 

Oh I still am relating to death. My grandfather that died recently. He died in a manner against his will. His leg was supposidly needed to be amputated. He wanted to keep it. The fact he didn't take care of in when he started having his problem was his first problem and signs of ignorance. His three children turned on him and finally made the decisioning for the doctor to take his leg away. It is believed by the Taoists this isn't the proper way. If the Taoist knows how to cure all from just sitting in meditation it is one thing. They also have some legends and/or stories in modern time about great healing abilities with really good rehab and/or herbs to treating cuts so deep like clean sword cuts back in the hand to hand combat and weapon killing times. Almost all his digity was taken away without his leg, the chances of him surviving after they took his leg was 50/50% they said... but we all knew his heart was only at 15-20% of its normal ability. (50/50% wasn't a realistic estimate) despite what the doctor said about 50/50 i knew if you took his leg you took his freedom of choice, to chose his own path. No matter how ignorant it may be. If he didn't have the state of mind to make the choice I understand there would be a totally different story.

 

 

 

I hope best of luck and good wishes for great and unbelievable recoveries to take place.

[cold]

A follow up of sorts. I am in Fl. with my Uncle this being 8 days since my aunt passed on and two weeks to the day since my Mother passed on, she fooled me that one did, my Mothers passing of a brain hemorrhage. It was quick and painless, or so I tell myself. I suffered most on the road to FL. exploring different, plans, schemes, and scenarios. Trying not to follow the mad hatter down the hole, fell into that one big time following my Fathers passing, got stuck there to for months...

 

Got stuck in worry, fear and impotence as well, slowly along a crooked cragged path i came to acceptance and empathy.. I hope to embrace them daily and practice hard embracing them.

 

but for now tonight at least i will cry both out of loss and love.

 

thanks Sean for creating a place a space where i could come to rest reflect and heal.

 

And thank you all who repounded with so good intentions.

 

wishing you one and all many blessings

 

cold from florida

[Heart&Mind]

Death is a tuff thing to deal with to see people around you getting very ill and then dying. When we see this we see a lack of control. The inability to save thoughs around us and what we all must face. This also show we cant do it all. We can only do are best with the time we have, show are love for thoughs around us and to face death bravely and say "Try to take me!". Thats right try to take me because when you truely look at things nothing can die. When the body breaks down after we die it becomes part of something else a tree, a flower, a bird ect. The memories we shared with that individual helps us in are lives becomes a part of us. Lessons they learned passed on to us the emotional support they gave us in a time of need and the lessons and emotional support we gave them. Even as we live we share dna in are bodies as a reminder that those we love are close. We wonder about what to do to honor them but its hard to know once there gone. But remeber all thoughs connections, I'm sure the answers will come straight from the heart. I always felt if you wish to know someones thoughts use your heart. This keeps us together this makes us immortal.

[doc benway]

A follow up of sorts. I am in Fl. with my Uncle this being 8 days since my aunt passed on and two weeks to the day since my Mother passed on, she fooled me that one did, my Mothers passing of a brain hemorrhage. It was quick and painless, or so I tell myself. I suffered most on the road to FL. exploring different, plans, schemes, and scenarios. Trying not to follow the mad hatter down the hole, fell into that one big time following my Fathers passing, got stuck there to for months...

 

Got stuck in worry, fear and impotence as well, slowly along a crooked cragged path i came to acceptance and empathy.. I hope to embrace them daily and practice hard embracing them.

 

but for now tonight at least i will cry both out of loss and love.

 

thanks Sean for creating a place a space where i could come to rest reflect and heal.

 

And thank you all who repounded with so good intentions.

 

wishing you one and all many blessings

 

cold from florida

My deepest condolences go out to you and your family, cold.

I send you love in hopes that it will give you some small degree of comfort.

[cold]

Heart&mind, and Steve,

(if i may be so forward as to address you as Steve, my given name is Dave)

 

Many thanks for your kind thoughts and words.

 

cold (dave)

[redcairo]

This is an old thread, but it made me cry. Can you tell us the eventual outcome with your uncle?

 

Boy you went through a helluva time during that era. I hope your life events are a bit smoother now.

 

RC

[cold]

I remained in Florida for a week in a motel, my Aunts sister and her husband were staying in my uncle spare room, and after they returned home three week at my Uncle's to get things settled. In October of that year I drove down with my sister in law to bring my Uncle back home to live in my sisters home, formerly my parents home. He remained there for two years before deciding to return to Florida.

 

Six or so months later I got a call from his neighbor stating their concern about his health. That was on a Friday, I arrived his home Saturday and he was surprised and pleasantly so. He had balance issues and kept falling opening wounds on his head. These falls happened every evening and we either at an emergency room or a doctors  office every day. On Friday we were seen by his regular doctor who stated " If you were not going home with your nephew I would be inclined to put you in a hospital and figure out was going on". But he got the ok to travel from his Doctor.

 

Saturday mid morning we left stopping for lunch and an early dinner after which we went to a hotel and he became very agitated he had been complaining his head hurt all day. Given the amount of trauma it was to be expected. He became angry very angry with me. I phoned my sister a Nurse and person whom had his living will what to do? Call an ambulance, which I did.

 

They asked which hospital to carry him to , why the best one was my reply. It was close to midnight when the brain surgeon told me he was bleeding in his skull and due to high level of blood thinner in his body he would bleed to death if they opened him. I asked for a phone and called my sister. I told her the news and let her confirm with surgeon. He was moved to I.C.U.. My sister arrived at the hospital early Saturday morning having flown to nearby airport and then taxi to hospital. My uncle was on life support and the Doctors all agreed he would not survive without it and recommended we pull the plug or allow them that option.

 

We got the hospital chaplain to say a few words, met with the hospital administration an ethicist a few doctors were there as well. His living will indicated clearly what his wishes were in a case like this, that is to end life support. So we did after a tear full goodbye we left him unconscious and on life support. It was strongly suggested we not be present when life support was withdrawn. As neither of us had eaten they suggested a meal would be appropriate.

 

We no sooner sat down and our food arrived and we got the call. Getting our supper to go, we quickly returned to the hospital.

We made an appointment with the undertaker on Sunday. And as a death certificate had to be issued and recorded it could take up to a week before anything else could be done. My uncle didn't want a funeral or burial. He was cremated and the remains after some time were sent to my sister.

 

My ancestors are frequently in my mind, more so this time of year. Tomorrow I will go to the graves of some of them. My father was orphaned at an early age his mother passed when he was 6 his dad remarried and quickly had another son before he too passed. My fathers mothers sister (Aunt Mary) took my dad in. They had one child a daughter Lee. Aunt Mary was married to Harry. Aunt Mary died after a brief hospital stay. Lee kept the news of her passing from my uncle for a week or ten days we arrived the news broke and he too died within three days, or so.

 

My father had lived with them until he was 18 and enlisted in the army, serving in World War Two. He returned state side went to college half way across the country from Mary and Harry. The visited only twice that I recall. I was certain of a few things tho Harry adored Mary was fond of golf and did not like kids! We were not close.

 

Following my parents deaths I had extreme shoulder arm pain went emergency room once. I thought I was having a heart attack. Saw my regular Doc and a Cardiologist nothing wrong.  

 

Went to see my dads acupuncturist whom coincidently was his chemo nurse and did an outstanding job with both. She needled me twice a week, I went to a addict recovery program in between where heroin users were getting auricular treatments by students studying acupuncture. These treatments were done in the Penn North neighbor hood in Baltimore. A BAD part of town to say the least, Freddy Gray's neighbor hood. Although not an addict myself I was helped and learned an awful lot the students were mostly white like myself, and came from an upper middleclass background and were treating primarily people of color poor to boot. The tension some days was so incredible. Mostly with the newest students, those who had not needled clients / patients before.

[redcairo]

Thanks for sharing your life Dave.

 

RC

[cold]

redcairo you are most welcome.

[silent thunder]

You have my respect for your level of connectedness and care in this situation.

 

You have my condolences for the heavy nature of the pain involved and the worry over those you care so deeply about...  there is no wrong answer here... you are doing and will do the best you can for the people you love.  You have already won, though the feeling being in such a state, is little consolation.

 

*deep bow*