Neiye - Section 4: The Sage

[Bindi]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

So knowledge reaches its end in spiritual awareness?

 

 

 

Using the concepts in this thread regarding the Numen, Knowledge reaches its end when the Numen, the Primordial Spirit, the Original Spirit, (I would like to suggest True Yin is also a synonym) re-enters into awareness permanently. I associate this moment with the dawning of true wisdom and "spirit-like understanding" leading to an unbounded understanding of the nature of life, more than 'spiritual awareness,' but maybe the two terms are synonymous?  

 

神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding – 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures.

 

遍 知 天 下 They understand the whole world

 

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Bindi

[dawei]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

When qi is guided, vital essence [Jing] is generated.
When it is generated, then there is thinking.
When there is thinking, then there is knowing.
When there is knowing, then you should cease.

 

From TT:

精 也 者 This essence [Jing] –
氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] which produces qi

氣 道 乃 生  the qi ducts in the human body originate in jing
生 乃 思  once originating this qi turns into thinking
思 乃 知 thinking becomes knowledge
知 乃 止 矣  knowledge reaches its limit

 

Qi is guided... and Qi ducts... are both highly novel and yet suspicious... 

 

That the same two characters can get completely translated across the map shows the challenge in this simple four character line.  That's why i wanted to see the other uses of Qi-Dao.

[dawei]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Using the concepts in this thread regarding the Numen, Knowledge reaches its end when the Numen, the Primordial Spirit, the Original Spirit, (I would like to suggest True Yin is also a synonym) re-enters into awareness permanently. I associate this moment with the dawning of true wisdom and "spirit-like understanding" leading to an unbounded understanding of the nature of life, more than 'spiritual awareness,' but maybe the two terms are synonymous?  

 

神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding – 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures.

 

遍 知 天 下 They understand the whole world

 

I actually like this... but would replace 'knowledge' with 'awareness' as I sense there is an inner growing going on beyond what we call knowledge. 

[OldDog]

The admonitions against excessive knowledge appear in various places. I think what they are referring to is the confusion and chaos caused by the excessive work of the rational mind which is constantly examining, distinguishing and discriminating. Against this background of noise, it is difficult to maintain awareness. Hence the need to quieten the heart-mind on a regular basis to regain awareness.

 

I wonder if this is not the way it was mean to be. It seems the manifest world operates in cycles ... seasons, moon phases, sunrise/sunset ... arising/declining,  coming/going ... part of a natural rhythm.  What are the human rhythms?

 

Thinking out loud again.

[KuroShiro]

17 hours ago, dawei said:

I follow your idea but it seems not likely to me because of how Roth's Section 8 runs:

 

Quote

7. Therefore, the sage:
8. Alters with the seasons but doesn’t transform,
9. Shifts with things but doesn’t change places with them.

--Section 8 --

1. If you can be aligned and be tranquil,
2. Only then can you be stable.
3. With a stable mind at your core,
4. With the eyes and ears acute and clear,
5. And with the four limbs firm and fixed,
6. You can thereby make a lodging place for the vital essence.
7. The vital essence: it is the essence of the vital energy.
8. When the vital energy is guided, it [the vital essence] is generated,
9. But when it is generated, there is thought,
10. When there is thought, there is knowledge,
11. But when there is knowledge, then you must stop.
12. Whenever the forms of the mind have excessive knowledge,
13. You loose your vitality.

 

I thought whether the "you" is supposed to be just a continuation of talking about the Sage... but it seems to me this is not the generative process to life [from seed] but talking about life  itself.

 

Yes, thought and knowledge are about life itself.

I was referring only to it is generated possibly being about the process of Life.

I read the you as a Human Being with the potential to become a Sage.

 

[KuroShiro]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

When qi is guided, vital essence [Jing] is generated.
When it is generated, then there is thinking.
When there is thinking, then there is knowing.
When there is knowing, then you should cease.

 

With this verse I'm going with the idea that jing is naturally depleted throughout a lifetime, ie. pre-cultivation, but things like guiding qi and generating jing are deliberate cultivation. This is why I'm then thinking that the thinking that is generated from jing cultivation is also positive, though there is a definite limit to how far this method can take you. A certain level of knowing and thinking should cease, but also I suspect actively guiding qi and generating jing should cease. Everything that can be done is done, and further progress just unfolds naturally, interference at this point would destroy the natural process which began with deliberate cultivation perhaps. 

 

I was thinking about the possibility of When qi is guided not being about deliberate cultivation, in fact not about cultivation at all.

 

 

If you read Taoist Texts translation below it doesn't hint at any deliberate guiding:

 

On 5/28/2019 at 5:20 PM, Taoist Texts said:

so the whole passage is:

精 也 者 This essence [Jing] –
氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] which produces qi

氣 道 乃 生  the qi ducts in the human body originate in jing
生 乃 思  once originating this qi turns into thinking
思 乃 知 thinking becomes knowledge
知 乃 止 矣  knowledge reaches its limit

[voidisyinyang]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Using the concepts in this thread regarding the Numen, Knowledge reaches its end when the Numen, the Primordial Spirit, the Original Spirit, (I would like to suggest True Yin is also a synonym) re-enters into awareness permanently. I associate this moment with the dawning of true wisdom and "spirit-like understanding" leading to an unbounded understanding of the nature of life, more than 'spiritual awareness,' but maybe the two terms are synonymous?  

 

神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding – 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures.

 

遍 知 天 下 They understand the whole world

 

 

 

This is also called the "Light of No Light" in the book TAoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality - thanks

[voidisyinyang]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

 

 

 

Qi is guided... and Qi ducts... are both highly novel and yet suspicious... 

 

The Mother as qi is the horse that guides/conducts the river chariot (yin spirit) in the water (yin jing).

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I was thinking about the possibility of When qi is guided not being about deliberate cultivation, in fact not about cultivation at all.

 

Re-reading the whole section, it seems to me that the requirement for jing to dwell in oneself is being aligned and still. Jing coming to stay still seems to me to be the requirement which allows further development. 

 

能 正 能 靜 When you can be properly aligned and can be still–
然 後 能 定 Then, you can be settled.
定 心 在 中 With a settled heart/mind [xin] in your center,
...
可 以 為 精 舍 You are able to become a dwelling for essence [Jing].
精 也 者 This essence [Jing] –
氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] of Qi!

 

氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life;
生 乃 思 With life, then there is contemplation;
思 乃 知 With contemplation, then there is understanding;
知 乃 止 矣 When you reach understanding, then stop!

 

8 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

If you read Taoist Texts translation below it doesn't hint at any deliberate guiding:

 

 

 

Agreed, and other translations don't have guiding either.

 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Re-reading the whole section, it seems to me that the requirement for jing to dwell in oneself is being aligned and still. Jing coming to stay still seems to me to be the requirement which allows further development. 

 

 

Being aligned and still is the core aspect.   It seems many things can dwell thereafter. 

[Bindi]

21 hours ago, dawei said:

 

From TT:

精 也 者 This essence [Jing] –
氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] which produces qi

氣 道 乃 生  the qi ducts in the human body originate in jing
生 乃 思  once originating this qi turns into thinking
思 乃 知 thinking becomes knowledge
知 乃 止 矣  knowledge reaches its limit

 

Qi is guided... and Qi ducts... are both highly novel and yet suspicious... 

 

That the same two characters can get completely translated across the map shows the challenge in this simple four character line.  That's why i wanted to see the other uses of Qi-Dao.

 

I don't know where Roth got 'guided' from, I can understand why Linnell translated the line as he did

 

 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life;

 

and I can understand how TT has come up with 'qi ducts,' and right now I tend to think he might be correct. 

 

This leaves us with the problem of qi ducts or qi channels that were defined previously in this thread as yin and yang qi ducts, I don't personally have a problem with them as a concept, but I think we'd have to go outside of Daoism to find a reference to them, I propose something along the lines of the female/male Ida and Pingala of Yoga.   

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I don't know where Roth got 'guided' from, I can understand why Linnell translated the line as he did

 

 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life;

 

and I can understand how TT has come up with 'qi ducts,' and right now I tend to think he might be correct. 

 

This leaves us with the problem of qi ducts or qi channels that were defined previously in this thread as yin and yang qi ducts, I don't personally have a problem with them as a concept, but I think we'd have to go outside of Daoism to find a reference to them, I propose something along the lines of the female/male Ida and Pingala of Yoga.   

 

 

Who defined them as yin and yang ducts?  I don't think the Neiye uses these terms does it?  Can't we leave it simply that jing produces ducts/channels which qi flows along?  Why complicate matters?

[Bindi]

58 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Who defined them as yin and yang ducts?  I don't think the Neiye uses these terms does it?  Can't we leave it simply that jing produces ducts/channels which qi flows along?  Why complicate matters?

 

There were multiple references to 'qi ducts' in the post linked below, I chose to take the reference to yin and yang qi ducts as relevant in general to qi ducts. 

 

 

[KuroShiro]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I don't know where Roth got 'guided' from, I can understand why Linnell translated the line as he did

 

 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life;

 

and I can understand how TT has come up with 'qi ducts,' and right now I tend to think he might be correct. 

 

This leaves us with the problem of qi ducts or qi channels that were defined previously in this thread as yin and yang qi ducts, I don't personally have a problem with them as a concept, but I think we'd have to go outside of Daoism to find a reference to them, I propose something along the lines of the female/male Ida and Pingala of Yoga.   

 

Graziani also translated that way:

"When qi is guided, it starts to generate;"

He read the character Dao/道 with its verbal sense: "guide";"route".

 

I think that once you have/consider qi ducts you also have Qi being guided, even if it's natural and "not deliberate". Qi flows in the channels naturally.

[dawei]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I don't know where Roth got 'guided' from, I can understand why Linnell translated the line as he did

 

 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life;

 

and I can understand how TT has come up with 'qi ducts,' and right now I tend to think he might be correct. 

 

This leaves us with the problem of qi ducts or qi channels that were defined previously in this thread as yin and yang qi ducts, I don't personally have a problem with them as a concept, but I think we'd have to go outside of Daoism to find a reference to them, I propose something along the lines of the female/male Ida and Pingala of Yoga.   

 

As KS points out below, Dao can translate to 'guide'.  One reason I wanted to look at Roth's works was to see any influence or hint as to this translation.   I didn't find anything regarding his use of guide.

 

But I will mention Chad Hansen produced his A Daoist Theory of Chinese Thought about a decade later which caused quite an interest of Dao as a guide.   Hansen translates the DDJ1:1 as:

 

"To guide what can be guided is not constant guiding. "

 

 

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

I think that once you have/consider qi ducts you also have Qi being guided, even if it's natural and "not deliberate". Qi flows in the channels naturally.

 

Exactly... I find the same reconciliation.

[Apech]

19 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

As KS points out below, Dao can translate to 'guide'.  One reason I wanted to look at Roth's works was to see any influence or hint as to this translation.   I didn't find anything regarding his use of guide.

 

But I will mention Chad Hansen produced his A Daoist Theory of Chinese Thought about a decade later which caused quite an interest of Dao as a guide.   Hansen translates the DDJ1:1 as:

 

"To guide what can be guided is not constant guiding. "

 

 

 

Exactly... I find the same reconciliation.

 

That's interesting I guess but what does it mean????

[dawei]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

I don't know where Roth got 'guided' from, I can understand why Linnell translated the line as he did

 

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

That's interesting I guess but what does it mean????

 

Dao as guide[d] is not a great surprise.   But I think he may of used it due to the alchemy inference more than Hansen's idea that Dao IS a guide. 

 

 

Oh... you bolded Hansen's line.   What can be guided would imply the ten thousand things and thus the manifest world... and therefore, not the formless Dao. 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

Chad Hansen produced his A Daoist Theory of Chinese Thought about a decade later which caused quite an interest of Dao as a guide.   Hansen translates the DDJ1:1 as:

 

"To guide what can be guided is not constant guiding. "

i clicked randomly on several of these

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

not one of them renders the first line correctly as 'speech which can be spoken is not a constant speech'. Yet it is a fairly simple idea well enunciated in the contemporary literature.

 

this guy got it more or less correctly but then hopelessly overthinks it

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

58 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i clicked randomly on several of these

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

not one of them renders the first line correctly as 'speech which can be spoken is not a constant speech'. Yet it is a fairly simple idea well enunciated in the contemporary literature.

 

this guy got it more or less correctly but then hopelessly overthinks it

 

 

Yes, I've noticed that too...  but don't agree with the next section comments on Chang vs Heng... It seems meaningless to press a point about Chang means undergarment when it was not the original word; although he admits Heng was in the silk versions he ignores explaining the taboo character issue that required it to be replace. 

[voidisyinyang]

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

That's interesting I guess but what does it mean????

Qigong master Yan Xin:

 

Quote

When high energy substances of the subconscious mind emerges, they should be one's guiding force.

 

[Limahong]

On 6/2/2019 at 9:00 PM, voidisyinyang said:

When high energy substances of the subconscious mind emerges, they should be one's guiding force.

 

Hi voidisyinyang,

 

A guiding force ~ along one's path of ONE?

 

 

- Anand

Edited June 7, 2019 by Limahong
Correct error

[voidisyinyang]

On 6/7/2019 at 12:45 PM, Limahong said:

 

Hi voidisyinyang,

 

A guiding force ~ along one's path of ONE?

 

 

- Anand

 

Before vectors and before tensors are noncommutative phase. So you can read Eddie Oshins for the details - from SAIC.