Wu Wei - Doing nothing?

[dawei]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:42 PM, Yonkon said:

After a while i just let all movement and speaking happen, with less trying or controlling.

 

My question: Is this what Daoist call Wu Wei? What is Wu Wei really? 

I imagine myself living in this kind of letting it happen state and it's intriguing. How do i get there? 

 

I think this first line I quote is close to an understanding... good job

 

On 6/6/2019 at 2:04 PM, silent thunder said:

For me, wei wu wei is not the lack of any action at all.  

 

So wei wu wei as 'doing without doing' has always resonated false with me.  (just my take, not trying to convince anyone else)

 

For me, wei wu wei is experienced translated as 'action without forcing'.  Action (or non-action) that follows natural flow. 

 

Also good direction or disposition

 

On 6/6/2019 at 6:23 PM, Everything said:

Again, you're doing something. And Wei Wu Wei is an energetic realisation, of your true being, allowed to come back into full realisation of all that you've truely become and are, at the core of that which is who you truely are, in alignment with the Source of your being.

 

Once you let go of that which blocks it from naturally becoming, which is usually a perspective or thought that you hold that hinders it, released by a tool or technique such as meditation, focusing on a mantra untill your thoughts become quiet,  you naturally feel better, indicating release of contradictory thought and energy in your being, which can be defined as "trying" and so, you naturally feel better, indicating a more allowed alignment with the true nature of your being, which is in alignment with the Source of All Creation.

 

And then you have acces to the energy which creates worlds, as you thus then allow yourself to perceive the world through the eyes of Source. Thus it is said, you do nothing, and leave nothing undone. It's called the art of allowing. Or you can call it inspired action. Allowed flow of evermore realisation of all that you truely are in your evermore becoming, always joyously and effortlessly along the path of least resistance, indicated by these positive good feeling energy in motions, of energetic synchronisation, co-creation, and harmony and alignment, with the Source of You and All that You truely are and are becoming evermore, and of All Creation.

 

One could parse parts of this but it is rare to see someone talk about wu-wei from an energetic point of view.  I agree with that aspect and only found in the past that Michael Lomax and I seemed to agree on this.   

 

So I think there is a physical and energetic understanding.

 

On 6/6/2019 at 6:48 PM, Fa Xin said:

Interesting perspective. Would you say a mantra practice is a “doing”?

 

On 6/6/2019 at 7:04 PM, Everything said:

Yep, 100%.

As I said, it is a tool and technique, and all tools and techniques is simply nothing more than a permission slip to allow yourself to become more who it is you truely already are.

And meditation is a very universal tool and technique and permission slip, as it is very practical and very easy.

As you let go of thought, you let go of thoughts of resistance, and thus then you can allow yourself to come more fully to the realisation of all the thoughts which truely feel good to you, indicating that they are in alignment with who it is you are at the core and Source of your ever being and ever becoming, as the unconditional eternal, infinite, all knowing, ever more awaking Source of All Creation, as our greater non-physical consciousness is the breath of it. And only a small portion of our greater non-physical consciousness is focused here through the lense of our physical being, standing here fully at the leading edge of thought, and creation.

So allowing yourself to connect fully with that, and allow that consciousness to flow more fully through you, always right here and now, is always of immesurable benefit, and this energetic alignment and allowing is indicated by the positive emotions one feels as one excersize their ability of unconditional alignment or the art of allowing, or surrendering to who you truely are. As all that you truely are. In your evermore allowed becoming, always along the path of least resistance. For the benefit of ourselves and all those around us aswell. Evermore. Effortless. Doing nothing, and leaving nothing undone. Or wei wu wei. Or art of allowing. Or art of releasing resistance. Or following the path of least resistance or following the path of lesser resistance. etc.

 

I had to quote the entire thing as it is in its entirety well stated.  

 

I've shared here a few times how Baopuzi affected me when I read his words: Practice is not natural.  I stopped all practices from that point for many years to see the point of that comment... which became ao kind of practice of not practicing (?)... so maybe just a mental game or searching.   

 

 

9 hours ago, Yonkon said:

i imagine it more like "doing without letting the ego control the doing". Wu Wei Wu as action trough you, beyond yourself. The result is concrete physical action, but guided through something i can't comprehend yet.

 

If the concept of 'ego' is present, something to intentional avoid... it is still not wu wei... but like a mind-game to figure out how to get to wu wei.

 

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

As the AA crowd says “Let go and Let God”

 

careful... as that is intentional decision making to proceed towards an outcome... not wu wei until we can forget we are doing it without a thought of "let go and let god"

 

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Letting go results from our awareness of our death.  A person who keeps this perspective in view doesn't bother to waste time with regrets concerning outcomes.  Their awareness of their death makes their choices more definite and final, and once the choice is made they let the cards fall where they may, whether good or bad doesn't matter.  What happened happened, they did their best, and now it's in the past.  Regrets are a waste of energy.  This is not to say that people are not supposed to learn from their mistakes..

 

I agree... and like letting go of the results of posting something highly contentious results in a ban is not in one's mind !   LOL

 

But 'death' is an incredibly strong mind concept that greatly restricts wu wei.

 

I offer this write-up which I read maybe 10 years ago and found incredibly interesting:

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

[Starjumper]

58 minutes ago, dawei said:

But 'death' is an incredibly strong mind concept that greatly restricts wu wei.

 

I didn't mean to imply that always thinking of death results in better choices.  It had to do with the question of letting go.  It is not thinking about death so much as it is the background awareness of our death (self honesty) that we could die any moment, can give people a certain attitude which results in letting go.  You could say that it is like a bit of a fatalistic or defeatest attitude, which prevents expectations.  Things are done only because they need to be done, and what needs to be done pops out spontaneously, without expectations of success.  Whether there is success or not doesn't matter, it's done, it was spontaneous, and I didn't do it.  It was done by me and it's in the past, can't change it now, so no regrets, that's letting go.

[Starjumper]

That there is called warrior attitude ... and awareness.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Starjumper

[Yonkon]

On 9.6.2019 at 2:43 AM, dawei said:

If the concept of 'ego' is present, something to intentional avoid... it is still not wu wei... but like a mind-game to figure out how to get to wu wei.

Why is the concept of ego problematic? I think it's rather helpful.

[Fa Xin]

27 minutes ago, Yonkon said:

Why is the concept of ego problematic? I think it's rather helpful.

 

This is interesting.

 

Perhaps it would be helpful to define what ego is... Also wondering how it’s helpful for you. 

 

Thanks!

[Rara]

On 08/06/2019 at 4:32 PM, Yonkon said:

 

 I often get the feeling that my spiritual practices are connected with a lot of effort, resistance and struggle. Sometimes even force. I have this anxiety, that when i stop practicing with this "pressure" behind me, i will get no results, no progress and everything is in vain. Through writing this answer, i realized that i am strongly attached to the practices and the outcome of those. As you can read in my answer above, i'm not quite sure how one can let go of expectations. Is this possible in a practical sense or is this concept more like "spiritual poetry", like a vision of what could be.. ? Hope you understand.

 

Resistance and struggle is normal because it's fighting the temptation to give up. The more you practice, the more this struggle diminishes and the practice becomes effortless.

[Yonkon]

On 14.6.2019 at 2:29 PM, Fa Xin said:

helpful to define what ego is... Also wondering how it’s helpful for you. 

 

Ego, as i understand it, is the conceptual word of the mind, the identification with the survival mechanism.

One day, as a baby boy, i started to make a distinction between me and the outer world. This is me and that is mama or something like that. Now i had the ability to actively manipulate my surrounding. I scream, so the now created outer world gets me the milk inform of my mama. "I do something so that the outer worlds responds in a way that helps my survival" That is the ego for me. 

 

This concept was only philosophy until i had the realization that the ego is not something i do or have. It is me. When someone is mean to me, it doesn't trigger my ego, it triggers me because i am the ego. It triggers my survival mechanism. So i have to learn, that when i want to realize the truth, i have to die. In the most literal sense. I dissolve myself, i dissolve the ego. I die before i die. It makes sense to me, the concepts works. 

 

So i'm interested how the ego is a problematic concept. I'm sure there is merit to this claim, so i'm curios. 

 

On 14.6.2019 at 2:50 PM, Rara said:

 

Resistance and struggle is normal because it's fighting the temptation to give up. The more you practice, the more this struggle diminishes and the practice becomes effortless.

 

Glad to hear that

Edited June 15, 2019 by Yonkon

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Yonkon said:

So i'm interested how the ego is a problematic concept.

 

Your child / mama starting point is fair enough but how do you see ego changing /developing over time ... with exposure to greater diversity in what is other than "me" ... with recognition that there are other egos active in existence. Is there not potential that an world view can become  ... unhealthy ... and unable to interact effectively / appropriately with the outside world?

 

 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Yonkon said:

 

Ego, as i understand it, is the conceptual word of the mind, the identification with the survival mechanism.

One day, as a baby boy, i started to make a distinction between me and the outer world. This is me and that is mama or something like that. Now i had the ability to actively manipulate my surrounding. I scream, so the now created outer world gets me the milk inform of my mama. "I do something so that the outer worlds responds in a way that helps my survival" That is the ego for me. 

 

This concept was only philosophy until i had the realization that the ego is not something i do or have. It is me. When someone is mean to me, it doesn't trigger my ego, it triggers me because i am the ego. It triggers my survival mechanism. So i have to learn, that when i want to realize the truth, i have to die. In the most literal sense. I dissolve myself, i dissolve the ego. I die before i die. It makes sense to me, the concepts works. 

 

So i'm interested how the ego is a problematic concept. I'm sure there is merit to this claim, so i'm curios. 

 

Thanks for the clarification.  My definition of ego is slightly different, and I have a feeling everyone here will have their own concept of an ego. 

 

So basically you are saying that the ego, as you describe it, is helpful because it is a survival mechanism.  That it benefits you that way. Very interesting.  Survival is important

 

Animals have a survival instinct, too.  But do they have egos?

 

 

[Yonkon]

24 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

So basically you are saying that the ego, as you describe it, is helpful because it is a survival mechanism.  That it benefits you that way. Very interesting.  Survival is important

 

 

I think there is a misunderstanding. I am saying that the concept of ego is helpful, not the ego itself. When i know what the ego is, i know where to aim. I can focus on my spiritual development. When i don't know what the ego is, i cannot dissolve it. I hope we have not lost ourselves in translation  

 

Although yes, i think it is rather useful to have an healthy ego to operate in the material world. 

24 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Animals have a survival instinct, too.  But do they have egos?

 

Great Question! I would say no, their survival is more like being than doing.And we have it the other way. Although you are right, my concept of survival doesn't work in the context of animals, it's quite flawed and simplistic 

26 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Your child / mama starting point is fair enough but how do you see ego changing /developing over time ... with exposure to greater diversity in what is other than "me" ... with recognition that there are other egos active in existence. Is there not potential that an world view can become  ... unhealthy ... and unable to interact effectively / appropriately with the outside world?

 

definitely yes to all points, as i said above, i think the concept of ego is helpful on the spiritual path, it gives you a clear sense of what you are trying to dissolve. The Ego itself is also useful, when it's healthy and developed. Then multi perspective thinking, personal growth and understanding can happen. I'm not very clear and sure with any of this. It's more like a rambling than a clear conviction. 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Yonkon

[Fa Xin]

48 minutes ago, Yonkon said:

 

I think there is a misunderstanding. I am saying that the concept of ego is helpful, not the ego itself. When i know what the ego is, i know where to aim. I can focus on my spiritual development. When i don't know what the ego is, i cannot dissolve it. I hope we have not lost ourselves in translation  

 

I see now, thank you for clarifying further. 

 

So because you are aware of the ego, it's able to dissolve.  So more that the concept is helpful, that you know where to look.

 

My own view & practice is different, as the more I try to clear my own ego, the more ego remains.  But this goes back to how I view ego.  My concept of ego is more that it's an illusion of division, lack, separation.  When you return to awareness and just BE - you dissolve the ego.  It could return in the next moment, so we must remain aware.  To me, there is no big bad ego, that must be slain.  The ego never existed in the first place, so how can we get rid of something that was never there?  There is just every moment, and we either spend it in presence or we don't.  The more we do, the easier it is to remain there, and the illusion of lack becomes less and less.  That may mean a falling away of identity and worldly stuff. Now what causes that division, is another topic entirely.

 

I feel many people get trapped trying to get rid of the ego, but there's nothing to get rid of, as it's an illusion in itself.  That's just my take on it.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Fa Xin

[OldDog]

5 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

My concept of ego is more that it's an illusion of division, lack, separation. 

 

This makes sense to me ... a illusory sense of separation of self from every thing else ... lack of sense of unity of existence. Thus, it is the illusion that must be dissolved ... not necessarily the ego itself.

 

I'm not sure the ego can be dissolved. It seems to me that the ego is ... inextricably  ... tied to sentience and consciousness. As such, it would seem necessary, if one is to realize the unity of existence ... experience something more than a vegetative state.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

7 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

I'm not sure the ego can be dissolved. It seems to me that the ego is ... inextricably  ... tied to sentience and consciousness. As such, it would seem necessary, if one is to realize the unity of existence ... experience something more than a vegetative state.

 

Yes, this is deep.  In order for God to recognize Godself, there has to be a degree of separation.  I think one reaches a point where the separation can be viewed as a gift... which to me, manifests as the potential of creation.  It's like the whole thing comes full circle... from being separate and miserable, to being united and enjoying, but also recognizing the separateness for what it is - a play of the divine and a means to an end (being drawn back to the One)

 

I'm not sure if we can be completely separate, or completely unified.  Maybe a degree of both is important.

 

How can we enjoy the sunshine without the rain

Edited June 15, 2019 by Fa Xin

[dawei]

On 6/14/2019 at 8:00 AM, Yonkon said:

Why is the concept of ego problematic? I think it's rather helpful.

 

Glad you brought that up as it produce some good discussion

 

26 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

My own view & practice is different, as the more I try to clear my own ego, the more ego remains.  But this goes back to how I view ego.  My concept of ego is more that it's an illusion of division, lack, separation.  When you return to awareness and just BE - you dissolve the ego.  It could return in the next moment, so we must remain aware.  To me, there is no big bad ego, that must be slain.  The ego never existed in the first place, so how can we get rid of something that was never there?  There is just every moment, and we either spend it in presence or we don't.  The more we do, the easier it is to remain there, and the illusion of lack becomes less and less.  That may mean a falling away of identity and worldly stuff. Now what causes that division, is another topic entirely.

 

I feel many people get trapped trying to get rid of the ego, but there's nothing to get rid of, as it's an illusion in itself.  That's just my take on it.

 

 

a simple definition of ego goes:  a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.

 

But I think it may be simpler:  'a person's sense of self'

 

when that rears its head and creates the separation you mention, I would accept that the emerging idea of separation is a kind of illusion because it only exists in that thought.   And I agree with your 'trapped' idea.

 

 

[OldDog]

A while back, I looked into A Course in Miracles  and associated writings. It did not resonate with me as a valid line if investigation.  However, there was one thing I took away. That was the notion that we needed to forgive ourselves for being separated from God. I sort of tucked that thought away, not making judgement one way or another. Later, as I began to consider what it meant to experience the unity of existence, the though came back. There seemed to be a correlation in thinking there. Still working on that. 🤔

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Glad you brought that up as it produce some good discussion

Agreed, i think it goes along with Wu wei.

 

3 minutes ago, dawei said:

And I agree with your 'trapped' idea.

What's interesting with that is *why* people (myself included) feel the need to get rid of the ego.  I don't think it's because we read it somewhere or believe that we "have to do that."

 

I think deep down, people feel the separation and know that it's not natural.

[Fa Xin]

2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

A while back, I looked into A Course in Miracles  and associated writings. It did not resonate with me as a valid line if investigation.  However, there was one thing I took away. That was the notion that we needed to forgive ourselves for being separated from God. I sort of tucked that thought away, not making judgement one way or another. Later, as I began to consider what it meant to experience the unity of existence, the though came back. There seemed to be a correlation in thinking there. Still working on that. 🤔

 

Nice thing to put away for a rainy day   

 

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

I'm not sure the ego can be dissolved. It seems to me that the ego is ... inextricably  ... tied to sentience and consciousness. As such, it would seem necessary, if one is to realize the unity of existence ... experience something more than a vegetative state.

 

The idea of ego is interesting, and seems tied to memory - which I believe in standard understanding is dependent upon language. The labeling of experience is a necessity in the verbal sharing of experience, and the means and manner and understandings of what is shared is often filtered through the personal perception of what is called ego. When one considers language as not just a tool in differentiation for the sake of understanding and communication, but a differentiated attribute of the ego itself, it becomes a question of, "can there be a dissolution of ego where language is present?"

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by ilumairen

[dawei]

17 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

What's interesting with that is *why* people (myself included) feel the need to get rid of the ego.  I don't think it's because we read it somewhere or believe that we "have to do that."

 

I think deep down, people feel the separation and know that it's not natural.

 

Agreed, it is not so much getting of ego but maybe what causes it to arise... which is a kind of paradigm of separation or "me".   

 

I think as suggested, that doesn't make the concept of "me" 100% bad as it can have a place within the dual way of life... maybe like knowing the rules of a game... but if you don't play the game, then the rules are meaningless.

[dawei]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

The idea of ego is interesting, and seems tied to memory - which I believe in standard understanding is dependent upon language. The labeling of experience is a necessity in the verbal sharing of experience, and the means and manner and understandings of what is shared is often filtered through the personal perception of what is called ego. When one considers language as not just a tool in differentiation for the sake of understanding and communication, but a differentiated attribute of the ego itself, it becomes a question of, "can there be a dissolution of ego where language where language is present?"

 

Wow... I had a very similar thought...that to get rid of ego is like saying to get rid of language 

 

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Agreed, it is not so much getting of ego but maybe what causes it to arise... which is a kind of paradigm of separation or "me".   

 

I think as suggested, that doesn't make the concept of "me" 100% bad as it can have a place within the dual way of life... maybe like knowing the rules of a game... but if you don't play the game, then the rules are meaningless.

 

If you're alive, you are playing the game. 

[Fa Xin]

6 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Wow... I had a very similar thought...that to get rid of ego is like saying to get rid of language 

 

 

Cool synchronicity.

 

I've always viewed the "Tower of Babel" as the symbolic story of the Ego.