Seeking Info

[cah5896]

Hello, I hope it's okay to repost my welcome post.

 

Hello,

 

Not quite sure what to say, but suppose it's best to be direct.

 

I'm in my early 20s and from a traditionalist conservative evangelical Christian background. I've studied some in universities, traveled a lot, wrestled with my faith a lot, and through a long questioning process, finally was able to abandon my faith in Christianity. I have resentments towards Christians, and Americans in general, traveling has really shown me what a messed up place America is, but I know I need to grow out of resentment. 

 

Anyway, I read Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi's teachings, and they really resonated with me, and then I found J Krishnamurti, and he seems to take Taoism to its logical conclusion better than most religious Taoists do. I've seen how every country has its idols, its Gods. In the end, it's all meaningless, emptiness. Religion is a crutch. Even secular countries feel the need to worship "democracy", "science", and "equality". Most people have a need to know things, to have things figured out. 

 

Anyway, I guess what I mean is I have low tolerance for BS. I know it's pointless to strive for immortality. I don't really care for a "kundalini awakening", or "opening the chakras". 

 

Does anyone know of a place where I can find a master that actually practices what's expressed in the Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi without overemphasis on exercises? A place where I can go live out my life without dealing with a public that just wants some blessings or stress relief exercises while continuing to live their miserable lives? Maybe a cave or remote mountain, like the days of old? I'm in Taiwan right now. I'm willing to travel anywhere in Asia or even beyond. I don't understand the mindset of most religious Taoists here. I struggle to see the value of putting an exercise first, and adding in a bunch of other dogma from Buddhism like karma and reincarnation. In christianity you're put on a treadmill where you're supposed to go out and do good works and evangelize. Buddhism and Karma doesn't strike me as much different. Just another opportunity for people to lord power over others.

 

Am I crazy?

[wandelaar]

36 minutes ago, cah5896 said:

Am I crazy?

 

No - you are what is called a philosophical Taoist.

[freeform]

14 hours ago, cah5896 said:

I struggle to see the value of putting an exercise first

 

Its not that the exercise is first... it’s that the exercise develops an experiential, embodied understanding of the art... 

 

A seed is not much to look at - but plant it, water it, fertilise it, weed around it and you might get something worthwhile... the ‘exercise’ is that cultivation...

 

Bear in mind that not all teachers of Dao are equally effective though.

 

Also be mindful that in reacting against dogma you may allow the pendulum to swing to the other extreme and you blind yourself in another new way.

[Walker]

In Taiwan there are people who teach along lines of what you seek.

 

If by "religious Daoists," you mean the priests in Taiwan who offer ritual services, it is probably true that most of them are not highly focused on following the most sublime teachings Laozi offered to humanity, but don't be sure that none of them understand these things. Taiwan has ~23,000,000 people, and therefore quite a few Daoists who offer various types of services that you could fairly call religious. Given the size of the population and the fact that this is a very diverse, open culture, be sure that any attempt to characterize its people and groups in simple terms will mean you have gone and mischaracterized its people and groups. Speaking specifically of religious Daoism, it is not unusual for people to be accustomed to "switching hats" here. Somebody who is comfortable in a role such as that of a ritual master may also be quite comfortable in a role where statuary, chanting, costumes, and so forth are quite irrelevant. As one teacher once put it to me, "there is no room for contradiction in the Dao." If you are truly looking for a teacher, you might benefit from spending some time reflecting on that statement. If you let rigidity creep into your vision, you may very well fail to see signs of a person who possesses what you say you seek. Such people are, very often, not especially obvious.

 

At any rate, it is good that you have hit the road to learn about the world, its people, and yourself, but beware of being too sure you know what is going on in the minds of the people who you have observed thus far. I assure you that if you walk into any Daoist or Buddhist teaching/practice environment, you will find as many versions of the teaching as there are people in the room. The range can be striking, going from "I'm here because this is an easy-ass life" to "I'm here because I'm afraid of going to hell" to "I'm here because I'm lonely and bored" to "I'm here because I need the free food" to "I'm here because I am crazy and this is where my family figured out to put me" to "I'm here because I am attached to the teachings in some way that is not truly liberating" to "I'm here because I wish to seek liberation that transcends any of the 'dogmas' and practices, but I will utilize these things for now" to "I am quite far along the path and have seen past its 'dogmas' and practices and can teach you many things if you empty out your cup, humble your mind, slow your breathing, and stop taking your thoughts so seriously." Et cetera.

 

You may need to increase your patience, humility, friendliness (extremely important in Taiwan), and "tolerance for BS" in order to stick around places for the amount of time you will need to even bump into people who have what you wish to learn, much less get a hunch which ones they might be, and then establish a rapport with them. Which, again, will be difficult (especially in Taiwan) if you have not taken the time to ease into groups, and put groups at ease. Edit: this sort of thing takes months and sometimes years.

 

Two other suggestions. First, it would be wise to put down whatever mindset it is you have that has led you to "struggle to see value." Too tightly wound. I suggest that you simply observe yourself, the teachers, the teachings, the other students, and so forth. For years. While practicing a few things that you resonate with.

 

Secondly, in the context of Buddhism and Daoism, you have much to learn about the words "emptiness," "karma," and "meaning." I hope you find a way to fill the gaps in your understanding, and to have joy as you do so.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Walker

[rideforever]

19 hours ago, cah5896 said:

A place where I can go live out my life without dealing with a public that just wants some blessings or stress relief exercises while continuing to live their miserable lives? Maybe a cave or remote mountain, like the days of old? I'm in Taiwan right now. I'm willing to travel anywhere in Asia or even beyond. I don't understand the mindset of most religious Taoists here. I struggle to see the value of putting an exercise first, and adding in a bunch of other dogma from Buddhism like karma and reincarnation. In christianity you're put on a treadmill where you're supposed to go out and do good works and evangelize. Buddhism and Karma doesn't strike me as much different. Just another opportunity for people to lord power over others.

Am I crazy?

 

 

No, because most spiritual people are idiots, and the teachers are like the mafia.

You should put the exercise (technique) first, but only for a few hours, after that expect results.

What is it you really want ?
There are some real enlightened teachers alive, and some good retreat places; but is that what you want, to meditate for enlightenment and discard the world ?   No more sex, chocolate, family, rock'n'roll ??
Or maybe you are just sick of bullshit, and wish to find "the way" ?

Why not just do all the normal things, "only a fool leaves the main road", but just do all the normal things ... in a conscious way.   And find a conscious hot Taiwanese wife, and then don't worry about anything else.

Most spiritual people are not interested in growing into the light.

They much prefer to rush around doing "good works" and "paying off karma" and many nonsenses, which don't involve them changing or learning anything.   Ha ha.

But if you are not going to do any exercises ... what are you going to do ?

People who do no exercises, and just talk, they are the biggest bullshit artists of them all.

Anyway, just because 99% of people are actually not people but monkeys does not mean that 1% of people are not people.   

They might be.

 

[Starjumper]

I was inspired to sign on to give that one a gold star.  

[cah5896]

Thank you for all responses so far. Even walker who was a tad harsher.

 

Taiwanese are some of the nicest people in general that I've come across in the world. A huge contrast to Korea, which I consider hell on earth.

 

I was accused of "pride" when I started to question Christianity, so I naturally bristle at suggestions to be more humble, but I understand I may have come across a certain way. Maybe let my guard down more is a better term.

 

I did spend some time at a Tibetan Buddhist center on the other side of the world, and the people there were some of the most anxious, unfulfilled people I've come across, especially the ones who went on and on about "mindfulness" and the importance of meditation.

 

By meaningless in my original post I meant most cultural traditions seem to be, not necessarily everything.

 

I was always called an old soul growing up, but since I left home and all my foundations have been crumbling I've lost that veneer and I'm only recently expressing myself more confidently, and I really am fed up with my country and my background religion. Yes, I could have been less brash in my wording.

 

 

 

 

[mrpasserby]

Hello, cah5896, having been perceived by others as a old soul, it could be easy for you with the cultivation at DBs, to discover for yourself the correct path for you to follow. I am currently looking into taoist neidan. have fun 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Since all the important stuff has been said already i can only offer some advice you didn’t ask for:

 

You learned critical thinking and the cost of not appeasing those who find comfort in certainty and discomfort in seeing others behave in ways they don’t allow themselves. Good. Swords to ploughshards, you won the war of deciding how to walk for yourself and it’s now time to move on. Remember critical thinking, forget the pain of detaching yourself from even greater pain, it was worth it.

 

Old soul is one of those things people throw about for flattery. Disregard such opinions, in fact my advice is to disregard all compliments except their function as a gift to you. Brash is good when useful just as gentle or diplomatic have their use. Remember what Lao zi wrote about beauty and uglyness etc? People who praise are trying to make you happy, some of them are looking to make you feel indebted. Accept gifts, not strings.

 

All that anger, resentment and betrayal(?) that arose during your questioning and finding a direction of your own way has played its justified, real and important role. You don’t need it any longer. Carry it for as long as you wish, but do so with awareness of it’s past due date. Not a single taoist teacher worth their salt or pepper will take you in while you cling to the piece of flotsam now that you’re back ashore, they’ll recognize you being too busy carrying around driftwood and comparing every tree and wooden utensil you see to it.

 

Don’t huff and scoff at those who seem lost, anxious and unfullfilled. You’re highly likely to feel and seem that way during times in your life, it will not point to your effort or direction being meaningless. Their effort and practice might be just the right one, but at this current point in their life it looks as it does to you. It says little about their path and where they’ll end up finding themselves one day. Chill, listen and select what is useful to you. 

 

Overall you might want to shift your approach towards gathering more data and away from coming to conclusions about things.

My suggestion is to instead learn to observe the small things, the lesser voices and whispers rather than the ongoing noise of the world, your thoughts, other peoples mouths etc.

Infer what makes sense in specific situations, disregard blanket statements and certainties of the general kind.

 

Oh, btw, good on you for finding this place.

Don’t be too harsh on us, yourself or others, i’m guilty of a lot of the things i caution you against and probably otherwise just running my mouth so yeah.

Cheers!

[cah5896]

@Rocky Lionmouth

 

Thanks, I listen, but can't say I entirely feel the same way that I'm comparing to Christianity too much.

 

Walker openly lumped Taoism and Buddhism together in his response. I know Taoists generally view Buddhism as compatible with their outlook, but it's hard for me to agree. If you're bringing in theology about differing paths after death based on your performance in this life, you're going away from what I'd think Laozi expressed in his writing. Laozi wrote in an eternal way, not really creating a religion with a definite beginning, whereas without the Buddha there would be no Buddhism. But I know the negative results of going too far the other way, viewing religions as always in competition with each other. You get things like the Thirty Years War in Europe and the ongoing battles within Islam.

 

I do feel like I'm observant of small things already, and in person I'm maybe a lot different than how I sound on here. I've been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety.

 

I know I haven't arrived where I'd like to be yet.

Edited June 12, 2019 by cah5896
Typos

[Walker]

1 hour ago, cah5896 said:

Walker openly lumped Taoism and Buddhism together in his response. I know Taoists generally view Buddhism as compatible with their outlook, but it's hard for me to agree. If you're bringing in theology about differing paths after death based on your performance in this life, you're going away from what I'd think Laozi expressed in his writing. Laozi wrote in an eternal way, not really creating a religion with a definite beginning, whereas without the Buddha there would be no Buddhism. But I know the negative results of going too far the other way, viewing religions as always in competition with each other. You get things like the Thirty Years War in Europe and the ongoing battles within Islam.

 

Keep. studying. young. man.

 

1 hour ago, cah5896 said:

I've been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety.

 

Heal.

 

1 hour ago, cah5896 said:

I know I haven't arrived where I'd like to be yet.

 

Good. Good luck.

[cah5896]

@Walker

Okay.

 

The way I think if someone is telling me I should learn more about something is to at least crack open the basics and see if the system is even worthy of exerting more effort trying to learn.

 

Just going into the basics of Buddhism I see glaring contradictions to Taoism. Looking at the 9 virtues of the Buddha, you see a glorification of knowledge, in contradiction to Laozi.

 

"Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles." -Laozi

 

You see a glorification of being venerable and respectable. 

 

"Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition." -Laozi

 

https://thebuddhadhamma.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/the-nine-virtues-of-the-buddha/amp/ --- There is more pseudo-Christian drivel, but I don't owe an explanation to this forum.

 

I've spent the last 6+ years of my life more or less friendless, always accumulating more knowledge of the world and its history and thoughts in my free time. That knowledge has done nothing for me except make me more isolated and more anxious.

 

You sound like the people at the Tibetan Buddhist center who always said "you can always learn more". That's like the definition of living an unfulfilled life, if what you have is never enough.

 

"Great intelligence seems stupid." -Laozi

 

I could keep "learning" about Buddhism so I could completely demolish it for you, but I am done exerting that kind of effort.

 

Really when you say I have more to learn you mean I don't see things the way you do and you want me to "open up" to your point of view.

 

There are hundreds of thousands like you all around the world, all part of different religions, who would see me how you do, see me as a lost and impressionable young man and try to get me to learn more about their religion, but why would I, when they are all contradictory and all flawed in the end.

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

It is also Taoist to accept the world and fellow human beings even though they seem flawed when measured against rigid absolute standards. I also have trouble with that, but I see the Taoist wisdom of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. When you are too radical in your criticism you may find that in the end you have nothing left. That may be OK as a transitional phase, but it is not a healthy way to live. One cannot completely demolish Buddhism or any other religion as they all have their good and bad points, although I do prefer some more than others. To live a meaningful life we just have to (provisionally) accept some ideas and values even though we can never be sure that they are the right ones.

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, cah5896 said:

 

 

There are hundreds of thousands like you all around the world, all part of different religions, who would see me how you do, see me as a lost and impressionable young man and try to get me to learn more about their religion, but why would I, when they are all contradictory and all flawed in the end.

 

The only common denominator in every tradition is ourselves.  No matter which tradition you study, you will view it through a lens of your own experience and what resonates with you.

 

Since you seem to dislike following traditions and find faults in other practitioners, maybe you should start just by listening to your own intuition.  Be like Bruce Lee, "Use no way as way."  Use what resonates for you.  Who cares what others do.. who cares about some grumpy Buddhists or some judgmental Christians. Spirituality is about working on yourself.  Good luck!

 

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Walker]

2 hours ago, cah5896 said:

@Walker

Okay.

 

The way I think if someone is telling me I should learn more about something is to at least crack open the basics and see if the system is even worthy of exerting more effort trying to learn.

 

Just going into the basics of Buddhism I see glaring contradictions to Taoism. Looking at the 9 virtues of the Buddha, you see a glorification of knowledge, in contradiction to Laozi.

 

"Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles." -Laozi

 

You see a glorification of being venerable and respectable. 

 

"Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition." -Laozi

 

You are approaching these teachings with too much head, not enough heart.

 

The result is the amusing irony that you are wielding sentences about not learning from a book you studied in order to win a debate that doesn't actually exist. This debate does not really exist, because "there is no room for contradiction in the Dao," and because both of these traditions are extremely up-front in admitting the insurmountable limitations of language.

 

Quote

https://thebuddhadhamma.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/the-nine-virtues-of-the-buddha/amp/ --- There is more pseudo-Christian drivel, but I don't owe an explanation to this forum.

 

Well, shucks. 

 

Quote

I've spent the last 6+ years of my life more or less friendless, always accumulating more knowledge of the world and its history and thoughts in my free time. That knowledge has done nothing for me except make me more isolated and more anxious.

 

On these paths, one studies always, but not in order to accumulate knowledge. Rather, one studies in order to understand what happens as one practices, and in order to enrich one's practice. While studying and practicing, one does both with detachment. It is probably not a great idea to study too much without practicing, as you will simply exhaust and make restive your mind, which is counterproductive.

 

Going back century after century, the texts written for students who are serious about practice have long warned that applying too much mental effort to try and wrap your mind around spiritual teachings far beyond your personal experience ranges from being a fruitless endeavor to downright hazardous.

 

That you profess to suffer from depression, anxiety, and social isolation that have worsened in tandem with your studious approach strongly commends your decision to change your approach. But it does not mean that Buddhism or Christianity are the root of the problem, nor that wielding what you seem to have learned from the Daodejing as an antidote will fix anything for you.

 

You don't have to take my word for it though. You could also just keep on doing what you're doing for another year or two and see if you have ameliorated your depression, anxiety, and social isolation. If you have, then you're probably on a better path than you were for the last half decade. Congratulations in advance. 

 

Quote

You sound like the people at the Tibetan Buddhist center who always said "you can always learn more". That's like the definition of living an unfulfilled life, if what you have is never enough.

 

"You can always learn more" is always true. Some may make this statement from a standpoint of wisdom and contentment, some from standpoints that bespeak a lack of fulfillment.

 

Quote

"Great intelligence seems stupid." -Laozi

 

Then the fact that I am so wrong about so many things should certainly suggest to you that I must be one of great intelligence, indeed!

 

Quote

 

I could keep "learning" about Buddhism so I could completely demolish it for you, but I am done exerting that kind of effort.

 

If you could demolish Buddhism for me, I would be very impressed, and I am sure you and I would both benefit tremendously by your efforts.

 

Quote

Really when you say I have more to learn you mean I don't see things the way you do and you want me to "open up" to your point of view.

 

No, I mean you are speaking about things you do not have a thorough, incisive understanding of. Therefore you make statements that reveal you have very incomplete knowledge. You have yet to discover that many of these ancient teachings contain layers of meaning, up to and including meaning that cannot be verbally expressed and which surpasses the logic upon which thought and language rely. You also have yet to discover that many of these ancient teachings can be approached from multiple angles, which may seem to be or even in fact be contradictory. In other words, you are wielding a vocabulary that you do have much of a grasp of in terms of the knowledge you would acquire through study of books alone.

 

On top of book knowledge, you also lack the sorts insights than can only be gained by penetrating into the teachings so that you do not remain stuck looking at the finger pointing at the moon. 

 

Thus do I say you have more to learn.

 

慢慢來. 

 

Quote

There are hundreds of thousands like you all around the world, all part of different religions, who would see me how you do, see me as a lost and impressionable young man and try to get me to learn more about their religion, but why would I, when they are all contradictory and all flawed in the end.

 

Of course they are full of flaws and contradictions. I cannot speak of other traditions, but both Shakyamuni (and a great many subsequent Buddhists) and Laozi were very up front about this problem. Luckily it is only a surface-layer problem. One who enters into the depths of these teachings via practice and heart will not be beset by apparent contradiction. 

 

You ask, why would anybody pursue teachings that are flawed and contradictory in the end?

 

To go beyond the teachings.

 

Now, if the teachings do not appeal to you, perhaps it is best to just walk away from them. I can see no good reason to continue studying if the teachings are off-putting. But you might then also wish to consider walking away from your strong opinions. It might not feel to you this way right now, but you gotta admit there's at least a chance that maybe some of what you're saying is sorta kinda founded on bullshit.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Walker

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Oh, pardon me, i wasn’t saying you were comparing to or with christianity. I meant that all that struggle you went through is still affecting you a lot from what i can gather, even though you managed to, figuratively, come ashore from being shipwrecked you’re still holding on to the struggle of it all, the lonelyness and pain and anger. It’s a great floatation device but unless you’re going swimming you don’t need it at the moment.

Presumptuous of me to speak like this but it thought, hey, what the hell, lemme stay true to what i percieve and offer it, should it be wrong or of no use to you then lets chuck it in the bin.

 

On a note of clarification:

 

Daoism isn’t a religion as most of people who have grown up in a culture where abrahamitic religions have or had significant influence culturally. It’s far too vast and unruly to be of such a unified structure. Daoism is hard to pin down but consider it more of a collection of knowledge and practice of use to those who wish to navigate our surroundings in a sustainable and honest way.

 

No self respecting daoist would dream of convincing you to abandon your viewpoint for theirs as it is, iirc, considered a violence towards both your and their true nature. Any words spoken here on the subject of your viewpoints or ideas being this or that is only a way to convince you that there is so much more you can see and experience for yourself. Practices are well defined, especially at first, but most of all it’s like a lot of life-skills and instruments to deal with things as efficiently as possible without violating their suchness or interconnectedness.

The Dao gives zero shits about anyone, it’s for us to try to either follow it to our advantage or oppose it to our detriment.

Nobody (worth spending time with imo at least) gives an equal amount of shits of wether you agree with them or not, a daoist do however care about seeing you be the most you and thriving that way, but will only speak to it if they think you need the words or if they deem your relationship suitable to develop and share certain ideas and practices. The only opinion you need is your own.

 

LaoZi is very clear about this. Zhuang Zi also.

 

As far as proselytizers, zealots and charlatans Daoism is full of those to the same extent as the general human population is.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Rocky Lionmouth
Changed my mind

[cah5896]

@Walker

When I was deep, deep into Christianity I would have sounded similar to you if I was arguing against a doubter.

 

You say I'm not looking deep enough under the surface. What have these religions we've been dealing with for the past 2000 years done for us except cause more hardship, more wars, and loss of freedom? Maybe they help some people cope with life better because they pretend something is real mentally, but that's it. What do the people in Thailand get out of the monks except being required to give money in exchange for prayers, blessings, etc.

 

I'm never going to out-debate you without delving as deep into your religion as you have, but that doesn't make me automatically wrong.

 

And once again you seemed to misunderstand something about what I said regarding contradictions. I meant there are people like you who are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc who really believe in their religion and would want to convert me to it. You accuse me of not seeing the deeper meaning behind things, but you certainly take what I say at very face value and seem to think in words a lot.

 

Sure I don't know the "appropriate Buddhist meaning" of a word like empty, but that only matters if the Buddhist definition is the right one, and I'm done taking things on "faith" like what you do in Christianity. Does not understanding how the Muslims view Allah's character make me a less knowledgeable and wise person? I think that is absolutely ridiculous.

 

When you say ancient teachings have layers upon layers of meaning, I'm guessing what you really mean is other people have found all this meaning, and again, I'm supposed to put all my faith in them like I put faith in my Christian pastor.

 

You're cut from the same cloth as a lot of other people I've had experience with. You strike me as someone who would probably have more in common with an average Christian pastor than Laozi. You're probably pretty good at manipulating people emotionally too, and I've gone through some of your post history, and there seems to be a trend. I'm a student of Nietzsche too.

 

"Others are sharp and clever, 
But I alone am dull and stupid. 
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, 
Without direction, like the restless wind"

 

With that, I've already broken many Taoist principles with this thread and probably should be done, while you who claim to have much more figured out, but of course would never admit having it all figured out to appear humble, stay in your bubble of tradition and knowledge that comes across more Confucian-Buddhist, while I go to a mountain to try to figure things out on my own.

Edited June 13, 2019 by cah5896

[cah5896]

@Rocky Lionmouth

Thank you.

 

You strike me as having a very good grasp on the Tao, and you are the type I'm willing to learn from.

[cah5896]

@Walker

The more I read over those first two paragraphs in your last response the more I feel justified in being a bit nasty to you. That's absolutely false logic and there are contradictions in the Tao, there are good and evil. In fact the Tao is all about contradictions. Just because we see the beauty because there is ugliness doesn't change the fact that ugliness is ugliness.

Edited June 13, 2019 by cah5896

[cah5896]

@Walker

If people actually thought with the logic you use in the first paragraph we'd all be complete doormats, treating falsehoods and drivel the same way we treat precious truth in the name of having "no contradictions".

[Rocky Lionmouth]

37 minutes ago, cah5896 said:

 

You strike me as having a very good grasp on the Tao, and you are the type I'm willing to learn from.

 

Most kind of you, Cah.

As for having a good grasp on the Dao (which i certainly don’t if we speak of the Dao dao you know?) i’ll paraphrase my Sifus approach to holding:

too loose you won’t have much control, too hard you cant move your wrist and your whole arm becomes useless.

 

I’d be honored to teach you, sadly my only formal training is in martial arts and i cant really teach you without physical proximity

You’d be surprised as to how many great teachers are on here. Some of the most shining ones have left us in more or less permanent ways but there’s quite a few really knowledgeable and skilled folks left.

 

But i’ll do my best to aid you should you need me, holla!

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Rocky Lionmouth
Don’t mistake my sincerity for humility :)

[mrpasserby]

On 6/12/2019 at 4:48 AM, cah5896 said:

@Walker

Okay.

 

The way I think if someone is telling me I should learn more about something is to at least crack open the basics and see if the system is even worthy of exerting more effort trying to learn.

 

Just going into the basics of Buddhism I see glaring contradictions to Taoism. Looking at the 9 virtues of the Buddha, you see a glorification of knowledge, in contradiction to Laozi.

 

"Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles." -Laozi

 

You see a glorification of being venerable and respectable. 

 

"Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition." -Laozi

 

https://thebuddhadhamma.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/the-nine-virtues-of-the-buddha/amp/ --- There is more pseudo-Christian drivel, but I don't owe an explanation to this forum.

 

I've spent the last 6+ years of my life more or less friendless, always accumulating more knowledge of the world and its history and thoughts in my free time. That knowledge has done nothing for me except make me more isolated and more anxious.

 

You sound like the people at the Tibetan Buddhist center who always said "you can always learn more". That's like the definition of living an unfulfilled life, if what you have is never enough.

 

"Great intelligence seems stupid." -Laozi

 

I could keep "learning" about Buddhism so I could completely demolish it for you, but I am done exerting that kind of effort.

 

Really when you say I have more to learn you mean I don't see things the way you do and you want me to "open up" to your point of view.

 

There are hundreds of thousands like you all around the world, all part of different religions, who would see me how you do, see me as a lost and impressionable young man and try to get me to learn more about their religion, but why would I, when they are all contradictory and all flawed in the end.

 

 

 

Become something. 

[wandelaar]

@ cah5896

 

Maybe some of the treads on passages/chapters of the Tao Te Ching or the Chuang tzu could be revived. That should be more to your taste than talk about religious or esoteric Taoism....

Edited June 13, 2019 by wandelaar

[cah5896]

@wandelaar

@Fa Xin

Thank you for your good advice too.

[Shubin]

 Fro someone who practices what's expressed in the Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi, you might want to take a look at，

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/32874100

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/28810131

and

https://www.zhihu.com/people/zhizhezhengdao/activities

 

Hope it could help。

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Shubin