Newcomer here, I have a few questions regarding LDT and adviseable qigong sets.

[Gloo]

Hello, everyone, I just got started not long ago into taoist esoteric practices, and I was wondering about some issues.

For instance, I have both read the meditation book by Bruce Kumar Frantzis on the water tradition of meditation and the little booklet on Mo Pai.

Both seem to involve LDT breathing in, but only the Mo Pai booklet warns that somehow you can damage your LDT. Is it really dangerous to perform this technique?

 

Also, I would like a suggestion on a decent set of qigong movements that is not very hard to learn, at the current moment I'm merely doing zhan zhuang, but I would perhaps rather another practice, Ba Duan Jin, Five Animals.... I'd like a recommendation.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Fa Xin]

Hello, Gloo, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the post pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum Terms and Rules.   This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Fa Xin and the TDB team

 

Welcome Gloo,

 

Glad to have you. I don’t know much about the dan tien stuff, but the Five Animal Frolics is a great starting Qigong set. Enjoy the forum!

 

You are welcome to jump right in to the ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forum to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Fa Xin

[Miffymog]

I have a simple ZZ practice and it can take you quite far, or at least give you a nice foundation with which to explore other practices as a number have some form of ZZ component so you're off to a good start.

 

Just my experience with ZZ is that I've found it very benefitial to have some joint loosening excercises before the stand and some simple shaking, arm swinging and body rub down afterwards.

 

Just recently I added the 8 Brocades as an exercise during another part of the day. It does seem to give the body a nice stretch deep inside and I quite enjoy doing it. I learnt it from Lam Kam's way of energy, which is my favourite book on ZZ.

[Gloo]

I think 8 brocades looks simple enough as a first routine, I'll go for that one.

[RiverSnake]

Basic movement that's very beneficial and powerful. The interviews section has insights from many great teachers, including several of the teachers you've mentioned. Here is an interview from Chunyi Lin: 

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

On 6/17/2019 at 10:37 AM, Gloo said:

Hello, everyone, I just got started not long ago into taoist esoteric practices, and I was wondering about some issues.

For instance, I have both read the meditation book by Bruce Kumar Frantzis on the water tradition of meditation and the little booklet on Mo Pai.

Both seem to involve LDT breathing in, but only the Mo Pai booklet warns that somehow you can damage your LDT. Is it really dangerous to perform this technique?

 

Also, I would like a suggestion on a decent set of qigong movements that is not very hard to learn, at the current moment I'm merely doing zhan zhuang, but I would perhaps rather another practice, Ba Duan Jin, Five Animals.... I'd like a recommendation.

 

Thanks in advance.

I haven't read this "little booklet on Mo Pai" you reference. I am not sure that is directly from a student of John Chang? It isn't Magus of Java as I don't remember mention of damage to the LDT in that book?

 

On simple practices - the secret of the "moving of yin and yang" is that for males the left hand is yang and the lower body is yin while the right hand is yin and the upper body is yang. So just by lining up the palm of the left hand to the lower body and palm of the right hand to upper body - this "connects" the yin-yang circuits (like licking a 9-volt battery).

 

So if you understand the simple principles of qigong (neidan, neigong, etc.) then you can understand the principles of why ANY practice or "technique" will work. For example in Yiquan, the founder of that lineage says it's all based on "dragon and tiger" as yin-yang energy cultivation. So you have to visualize the energy from the right hand to the left foot and the left hand to the right foot.

 

You can read the book "TAoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" for more indepth analysis of how the basic principles work - in terms of alchemy. The water method is just that the Heaven energy starts out as yin but only with meditation do you then take that "inner yin" of fire and turn it into Heaven by putting that yin into the Earth and then sublimating it back up to the third eye. So then this has to be swallowed as yang qi back down the front - this is called the "Reverted Elixir" by Pregadio - another name for the Water Method.

 

So again if you understand the basic principles then all these different terminologies of different lineages can be understood. For example Shaolin is Buddhist but relies on Dragon and Tiger as yin-yang energy dynamics. The dragon and tiger shamanism is traced back many thousands of years in China - as found in graves. I have further details in my profile links - all free research.

 

As for "damage" to the LDT - a person can overuse the third eye, after it is open. This can cause the yin qi not to be held back by the yang qi - as the yang qi gets burned up. Then you have to rely on yin qi food sources (or fasting meditation) to build up the yang qi again. So as Wang Liping states, if you do five hours of full lotus meditation every day for 1 year (without missing a day and maintaining celibacy) then you can restore your jing energy back to a 16 year old. This is what is necessary to full up the LDT again to then fully activate the third eye as an enlightenment experience.

 

 

[pegasus1992]

On 6/17/2019 at 4:37 PM, Gloo said:

Hello, everyone, I just got started not long ago into taoist esoteric practices, and I was wondering about some issues.

For instance, I have both read the meditation book by Bruce Kumar Frantzis on the water tradition of meditation and the little booklet on Mo Pai.

Both seem to involve LDT breathing in, but only the Mo Pai booklet warns that somehow you can damage your LDT. Is it really dangerous to perform this technique?

 

Also, I would like a suggestion on a decent set of qigong movements that is not very hard to learn, at the current moment I'm merely doing zhan zhuang, but I would perhaps rather another practice, Ba Duan Jin, Five Animals.... I'd like a recommendation.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Shhh!!! that word is forbidden around here 

 

On 6/25/2019 at 11:27 PM, voidisyinyang said:

I haven't read this "little booklet on Mo Pai" you reference. I am not sure that is directly from a student of John Chang? It isn't Magus of Java as I don't remember mention of damage to the LDT in that book?

 

On simple practices - the secret of the "moving of yin and yang" is that for males the left hand is yang and the lower body is yin while the right hand is yin and the upper body is yang. So just by lining up the palm of the left hand to the lower body and palm of the right hand to upper body - this "connects" the yin-yang circuits (like licking a 9-volt battery).

 

So if you understand the simple principles of qigong (neidan, neigong, etc.) then you can understand the principles of why ANY practice or "technique" will work. For example in Yiquan, the founder of that lineage says it's all based on "dragon and tiger" as yin-yang energy cultivation. So you have to visualize the energy from the right hand to the left foot and the left hand to the right foot.

 

You can read the book "TAoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" for more indepth analysis of how the basic principles work - in terms of alchemy. The water method is just that the Heaven energy starts out as yin but only with meditation do you then take that "inner yin" of fire and turn it into Heaven by putting that yin into the Earth and then sublimating it back up to the third eye. So then this has to be swallowed as yang qi back down the front - this is called the "Reverted Elixir" by Pregadio - another name for the Water Method.

 

So again if you understand the basic principles then all these different terminologies of different lineages can be understood. For example Shaolin is Buddhist but relies on Dragon and Tiger as yin-yang energy dynamics. The dragon and tiger shamanism is traced back many thousands of years in China - as found in graves. I have further details in my profile links - all free research.

 

As for "damage" to the LDT - a person can overuse the third eye, after it is open. This can cause the yin qi not to be held back by the yang qi - as the yang qi gets burned up. Then you have to rely on yin qi food sources (or fasting meditation) to build up the yang qi again. So as Wang Liping states, if you do five hours of full lotus meditation every day for 1 year (without missing a day and maintaining celibacy) then you can restore your jing energy back to a 16 year old. This is what is necessary to full up the LDT again to then fully activate the third eye as an enlightenment experience.

 

 

 

"He who must not be named" 

[Gloo]

On 26/6/2019 at 12:27 AM, voidisyinyang said:

For example in Yiquan, the founder of that lineage says it's all based on "dragon and tiger" as yin-yang energy cultivation. So you have to visualize the energy from the right hand to the left foot and the left hand to the right foot.

The martial art? Yes, I have the notion it's very good for health, though I normally don't use visualizations, I could do with a very simple system, but the exercise posted by Shadow looks real simple aswell.

As far as I know Yiquan is a formless martial art, that gets branched into two different trainings, either health or martial, at a certain point, and most of what you would do is standing post meditation, is this correct? I already do some Zhan Zhuang, so I do not see if it would be worth my while to get instructed into Yiquan just to be told to stand like a tree like I'm already doing.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies.

[Zork]

38 minutes ago, Gloo said:

I already do some Zhan Zhuang, so I do not see if it would be worth my while to get instructed into Yiquan just to be told to stand like a tree like I'm already doing.

How often do you stand for one hour in one go?

You need to get past 40 minutes of standing in one go, to see actual benefits.

[EmeraldHead]

39 minutes ago, Zork said:

How often do you stand for one hour in one go?

You need to get past 40 minutes of standing in one go, to see actual benefits.

What kind of benefits?

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Gloo said:

The martial art? Yes, I have the notion it's very good for health, though I normally don't use visualizations, I could do with a very simple system, but the exercise posted by Shadow looks real simple aswell.

As far as I know Yiquan is a formless martial art, that gets branched into two different trainings, either health or martial, at a certain point, and most of what you would do is standing post meditation, is this correct? I already do some Zhan Zhuang, so I do not see if it would be worth my while to get instructed into Yiquan just to be told to stand like a tree like I'm already doing.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies.

traditional yiquan requires 2 hours nonstop standing based on yin-yang energy flow (right hand to left foot and left hand to right foot). You do that every day without missing a day for a couple years before learning anything else. If you skip this initial foundational training then the rest will be just superficial external training. thanks

[Gloo]

19 hours ago, Zork said:

You need to get past 40 minutes of standing in one go, to see actual benefits.

Quite debateable, according to the authors I've read, beginners start with 5 minutes and apparently that's enough to reap the initial benefits, 20 minutes is the next mark and the benefits multiply. Perhaps if you are in excellent health, 40 minutes of standing is the bare minimum you need to actually experience benefits, but other, less fortunate people will improve quickly with less standing time.

[Zork]

23 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

What kind of benefits?

I am not sure if you are testing me so i will answer: 40 minutes unlock the sensitivity to energy and 60 minutes help you stay more in zhan zhuang in a more relaxed state.

 

4 hours ago, Gloo said:

Quite debateable, according to the authors I've read, beginners start with 5 minutes and apparently that's enough to reap the initial benefits, 20 minutes is the next mark and the benefits multiply.

No it isn't debatable. You are basing your opinion on a book about zhan zhuang not yiquan.

Yiquan is NOT the equivalent of zhan zhuang.

Zhan Zhuang comprises the major part of yiquan training but they are not the same.

4 hours ago, Gloo said:

Perhaps if you are in excellent health, 40 minutes of standing is the bare minimum you need to actually experience benefits, but other, less fortunate people will improve quickly with less standing time.

Pre existing health is irrelevant to standing times.

Can you please tell me where do you get the info that you are relaying here?

Has your teacher told you the above?

My comments are based on actual experience with a reliable teacher. I am not relaying random stuff that i thought i read somewhere.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Zork

[Gloo]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

My comments are based on actual experience with a reliable teacher.

That may be so, but I am not sure wether you're talking about standing like a tree or about Yiquan at this point.

In any case, I am very much sure that very little standing practice actually gives you benefit because of my personal experience, since I come from a very bad case of energy exhaustion of which I'm kinda recovering.

[EmeraldHead]

2 hours ago, Zork said:

I am not sure if you are testing me so i will answer: 40 minutes unlock the sensitivity to energy and 60 minutes help you stay more in zhan zhuang in a more relaxed state.

Why not build energy to feel energy? I build various energies in my practice and that seems to be the mechanics <-. If you want a work out why not horse stance  I heard Master Jiangs lineage used to horse stance for 1 hour or longer. Even on one foot to make it harder. Now that's a workout. Not quite sure what you by relaxed state you see :D. If you want to train stillness control sit in the chair and don't move. ZZ position is too advanced to train body control in/depth-through-relaxation.

[Zork]

My teacher relayed the following.

Quote

“It is interesting that someone who started very recently will quote sources he has read but will act as though he has authority and qualifications to discuss what is correct practice. Especially peculiar are those who only recently got into the practice without realizing how incomplete their understanding is as evident in their statements with absolutely no uncertainty or humility.

Our lineage has Wang Xiangzhai and Chen Yiren who both left notes behind for our instructors and yet people who aren’t even their students make comments without actually knowing what they really meant, especially referring to those in other circumstances who have quoted out of context what Wang Xiangzhai has said in public interviews that actually mean something quite different for those in his circle of trust because only they are privy to understand his hidden subtext.

The relaxation mechanism isn’t just being able to relax in difficult positions but having proper guidance to develop this as zz is not merely just standing, for beginners doing anything under 20 minutes is developing muscular tolerance rather than internal power that begins after a certain threshold is reached, and this requires both proper structure and  adequate minimum duration of time standing.

The lineage we have encourages one hour of standing and ten thousand things occur at once, some knowingly that we teach and others one only discovers with regular practice, but this is our pedigree and prestige, so we can’t comment on others assuming they have proper qualifications to make their conclusions.

Those who say how certain they are regardless of lineage are best tested against us by seeing how their comfort and health as well as form look when we invite them to stand with us for no less than one hour and then test their martial skill and strength immediately after standing. This is how we determine who has good understanding and good instruction, otherwise we have no reason to argue because we are tried and tested for centuries in our school and don’t have time to correct others.

We do invite them to become our students though if they so desire.”

 

I agreed to post this message because i hope that it would prove useful to you or other people searching for yi quan and dispel the confusion around the system.

[rideforever]

On 04/07/2019 at 2:19 PM, Zork said:

My comments are based on actual experience

 

I would be interested in any teaching materials you have from your teachers or lineage, texts by Chen Yiren or anything at all.

thanks.

[Zork]

Please tell me that you are joking! Even if i had texts, by what authority am i to hand them over to you?

You are asking me to override and circumvent my teacher breaching his trust and thus risking my training!