Tantra...

[Jonesboy]

16 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In my view, anything put down in words requires a mental understanding. While it may point to non-conceptual "understanding" it cannot escape the conceptual vehicle. We must read and then interpret the words, linking them to a conceptual image of whatever the words are pointing to. The very idea that a scripture has nothing to do with mental understanding is a clue to just how insidious and pervasive the conceptual mind is in our life and practice. 

 

I recently had a discussion with a very advanced practitioner and teacher in which I brought up something that I'm finding in my practice. In my meditation practice it is sometimes difficult to discern whether I have allowed a thought or impression to spontaneously liberate or whether I (the meditator) have interrupted or suppressed, which is not the proper technique. When I raised the question she quickly pointed to that very concern as the problem. The one questioning is, in and of itself, the most insidious and challenging one. Far worse than the "problem" he was pointing out. 

 

I did not mean to give the impression that scriptures can not lead to a mental understanding. My point was the teaching isn't about a mental understanding but a realization of being, a change in being to realize that form=void. It is moving beyond the conceptual, after all isn't that what Buddhism is all about?

[ilumairen]

Not sure if this belongs here, or in it's own thread. In any case it's presented for consideration.

 

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

[Jeff]

23 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In my view, anything put down in words requires a mental understanding. While it may point to non-conceptual "understanding" it cannot escape the conceptual vehicle. We must read and then interpret the words, linking them to a conceptual image of whatever the words are pointing to. The very idea that a scripture has nothing to do with mental understanding is a clue to just how insidious and pervasive the conceptual mind is in our life and practice. 

 

I recently had a discussion with a very advanced practitioner and teacher in which I brought up something that I'm finding in my practice. In my meditation practice it is sometimes difficult to discern whether I have allowed a thought or impression to spontaneously liberate or whether I (the meditator) have interrupted or suppressed, which is not the proper technique. When I raised the question she quickly pointed to that very concern as the problem. The one questioning is, in and of itself, the most insidious and challenging one. Far worse than the "problem" he was pointing out. 

 

While I would agree that anything put down in words require a mental understanding, I would argue that it is impossible to truly understand the meaning of the Heart sutra without the realization of emptiness itself.  Emptiness is "beyond the mind", and can not be built up from a basis of mental understanding. Words are nothing but pointers, and a great danger when they become a descriptive basis for the conceptual mind to lock into a framework.

 

To me, the very idea that the scripture can lead to a "true" mental understanding is the insidious part. 

 

Also, with your example on spontaneous liberation, it is not the question itself that is problem, as that is very far downstream from any potential release.  If something actually spontaneously releases, it simply drops and does not even arise, so there is nothing that could form the basis for your question of it's release in the first place.  Your questioning (in my view), is actually a very positive thing in that you are subconsciously telling yourself that you have not really released it and bringing that awareness into your conscious mind.  It actually shows a deep perceptional capability that you realize there are still subconscious aspects hanging around of the underlying issues.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Also, with your example on spontaneous liberation, it is not the question itself that is problem, as that is very far downstream from any potential release.  If something actually spontaneously releases, it simply drops and does not even arise, so there is nothing that could form the basis for your question of it's release in the first place.  Your questioning (in my view), is actually a very positive thing in that you are subconsciously telling yourself that you have not really released it and bringing that awareness into your conscious mind.  It actually shows a deep perceptional capability that you realize there are still subconscious aspects hanging around of the underlying issues.

 

 

 

This raises an interesting question. 

 

With a tantric practice - let’s say working with a higher being.... Would you say such matters of clearing are left to the being you’re working with?

 

In my own practice, let’s say I am working with Kali ... I just kind of focus on her and let her do everything.  Yes there’s a realization that we merge at some point and the dividing lines blur... but the “doing” is given up and given to her. I find it liberating and helpful when dealing with the sort of thoughts that Steve mentions. 

 

So while I agree here that noticing there is still stuff to be cleared is a good thing.... I mean more the mindset that wants to apply effort in clearing. 

[Jonesboy]

4 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This raises an interesting question. 

 

With a tantric practice - let’s say working with a higher being.... Would you say such matters of clearing are left to the being you’re working with?

 

In my own practice, let’s say I am working with Kali ... I just kind of focus on her and let her do everything.  Yes there’s a realization that we merge at some point and the dividing lines blur... but the “doing” is given up and given to her. I find it liberating and helpful when dealing with the sort of thoughts that Steve mentions. 

 

So while I agree here that noticing there is still stuff to be cleared is a good thing.... I mean more the mindset that wants to apply effort in clearing. 

 

I would think that they can't let go of issues for you. More they provide the space to allow you to let go of them.

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

While I would agree that anything put down in words require a mental understanding, I would argue that it is impossible to truly understand the meaning of the Heart sutra without the realization of emptiness itself.  

 

This I would agree with. 

 

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Emptiness is "beyond the mind", and can not be built up from a basis of mental understanding. Words are nothing but pointers, and a great danger when they become a descriptive basis for the conceptual mind to lock into a framework.

 

Please explain the manner in which you intend the phrase "beyond the mind" to be understood.

 

Do you separate appearance and emptiness?

 

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

To me, the very idea that the scripture can lead to a "true" mental understanding is the insidious part. 

 

This isn't necessarily what's being said, and the argument may be another strawman fallacy, although I do not understand your position well enough to thoroughly determine if this is the case or not.

 

Please clarify both the assertion you believe you are refuting, and your refutation.

 

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I would think that they can't let go of issues for you. More they provide the space to allow you to let go of them.

 

I would say the “giving it to them” is me letting it go...

[Jonesboy]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

I would say the “giving it to them” is me letting it go...

 

Maybe I am splitting hairs here..

 

If you are merged with a being and you are giving to them, are you then really merged? Such giving at that point is dualistic. Would it not be more of a residing/being and as Steve mentioned a spontaneous liberation?

Edited June 21, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Fa Xin]

15 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Maybe I am splitting hairs here..

 

If you are merged with a being and you are giving to them, are you then really merged. Such giving at that point is dualistic. Would it not be more of a residing/being and as Steve mentioned a natural liberation?

 

Your correct yes. A natural liberation by focusing on the deity, instead of the issue. 

 

In my experience there’s a level of trust that builds when working with a higher being, where you start to let go of fears and trust them. That allows the residing to happen.

 

on second thought, perhaps that’s more of a mental trick, rather than true residing.  

 

The question of trust I feel is important with tantra, though. At least at first. 😊

 

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Fa Xin

[ilumairen]

 

8 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

The question of trust I feel is important with tantra, though. 

 

Rinpoche said the same in teaching guru yoga. Trust is very important.

 

And while one is working with tantric practices there are first only glimmers, and then moments of "abiding" as the form is dissolved and we rest for as long as the experience "remains fresh". 

 

[Jeff]

44 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This raises an interesting question. 

 

With a tantric practice - let’s say working with a higher being.... Would you say such matters of clearing are left to the being you’re working with?

 

In my own practice, let’s say I am working with Kali ... I just kind of focus on her and let her do everything.  Yes there’s a realization that we merge at some point and the dividing lines blur... but the “doing” is given up and given to her. I find it liberating and helpful when dealing with the sort of thoughts that Steve mentions. 

 

So while I agree here that noticing there is still stuff to be cleared is a good thing.... I mean more the mindset that wants to apply effort in clearing. 

 

In a way yes, as it is all about "letting go of" the underlying issues.  But, whether one works with a higher being or the universe itself, those beings are not really "taking", it is more that they create a natural tantric polarity with deeper and stronger energy flows then one can create on their own.  Those stronger flows dig deeper and give one greater potential (or easier) to release them.

 

True "spontaneous perfection" (that Steve was describing) happens at what I call light level and is beyond "local" mind, so there is not the local you asking did I let it go. At light, it is more that one is "being" all and residing.  So when the energy flow with a divine being "hits" (or brings up) a subconscious issue or fear, rather than react in local mind, it more dissolves into its more pure clear light form, leaving no real attachment structure to come up or ask about.

 

This is more easily seen if you think about forgiving someone.  If you truly forgive, it never comes up and is effectively gone.  But, if you feel the need to remind yourself or the other person that you forgave them, then you never really completely forgave them in the first place.

[Fa Xin]

Thanks everyone.  Good discussion we have going here.

 

I'm going to quote Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, to go along with the feel of the thread.  

This is close to what I mean when I talk about working with a higher being...

 

"When we see that everything arises out of voidness as the manifestation of Chenrezi, and thus recognize the expanse of infinite purity, we then no longer discriminate between good and bad, pure and impure; it is all the display of Chenrezi. Friends are Chenrezi, enemies are Chenrezi, all are one as Chenrezi."

 

To me, this is closer to what I experience with a higher being, rather than the direct connection (though that happens, too.) I assume one can replace "Chenrezi" with some other being's name.  Or the universe itself, as Jeff says.

 

This has also been important for me when "accepting" such experiences as deemed negative or pleasurable, or could cause some friction and resistance.

[Jeff]

56 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

This I would agree with. 

 

Please explain the manner in which you intend the phrase "beyond the mind" to be understood.

 

Do you separate appearance and emptiness?

 

No, as I have repeatedly stated with the black board analogy and also my quote from Jesus to CT, there is no such separation.

 

Beyond the mind means that emptiness cannot be realized by the mind. The mind is simply an appearance "like chalk" that arises in emptiness (really primordial, as emptiness is a more limited view in my view) "like blackboard"

 

56 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

This isn't necessarily what's being said, and the argument may be another strawman fallacy, although I do not understand your position well enough to thoroughly determine if this is the case or not.

 

Please clarify both the assertion you believe you are refuting, and your refutation.

 

 

Haha... You are using a straw man fallacy to state that I may be using a straw man fallacy.  Please clarify both your assertion you believe I am making and my proposed fallacy, so that I can have any possible hope at all of responding with my refutation. Then I will be happy to respond.

[Fa Xin]

Hi Jeff,

 

One conceptual framework I understand things through is a Kabbalistic one. 

 

The three "parts" of "consciousness/God" as I understand...

 

Ain - "The Emptiness", the Primordial No-Thing-Ness ... The true nature of God is completely beyond the comprehension of mental, emotional, physical being - that God is neither "something" nor "nothing".  

 

Ain Soph - "The Infinite" - Yet from this primordial no-thingness, something arises.  This quality is infinite potential.

 

Ain Soph Or - "The Light" or "The Infinite Light" which manifests to us as Awareness.

 

I understand this "framework" as relates to my own consciousness... so "Ain soph" being the infinite potential of thoughts that could arise... "Ain Soph Or" is the awareness, and "Ain" is tracing thoughts back and finding no source. 

 

This appears to me as being "form is emptiness", because even though we do not find anything as we trace our thoughts back, there is still "something" there...

 

How does this compare to your idea of a blackboard? It sounds similar... Basically there is a principal (Ain or Emptiness) that is unable to be experienced, in which all things arise.

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Fa Xin

[ilumairen]

42 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

No, as I have repeatedly stated with the black board analogy and also my quote from Jesus to CT, there is no such separation.

 

Beyond the mind means that emptiness cannot be realized by the mind. The mind is simply an appearance "like chalk" that arises in emptiness (really primordial, as emptiness is a more limited view in my view) "like blackboard"

 

 

Thank you for explaining your position. The mind, as appearance, would itself be empty.. and I'm failing to see why "mind" could not potentially recognize it's empty nature. 

 

Quote

Haha... You are using a straw man fallacy to state that I may be using a straw man fallacy.  Please clarify both your assertion you believe I am making and my proposed fallacy, so that I can have any possible hope at all of responding with my refutation. Then I will be happy to respond.

 

And 'round and 'round we go...

 

You wrote:

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

To me, the very idea that the scripture can lead to a "true" mental understanding is the insidious part. 

 

There is a presupposition in this statement. You are (apparently) refuting an idea of scripture leading to mental understanding, although it is a mentally constructed sharing of understanding - which can be contemplated, intellectually and experentially (through practice) explored to verify (or deny) it's veracity. Which would then enable another to share in the understanding, or disagree if something is found to be "off".

 

Although in this case, if something is found to be "off" it is (imo) an indication of misunderstanding.

 

Soo, I don't understand, or see, what would have been set forth by anyone here to warrant what appears to be a refutation on your part.

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by ilumairen

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

...

 

There is a presupposition in this statement. You are (apparently) refuting an idea of scripture leading to mental understanding, although it is a mentally constructed sharing of understanding - which can be contemplated, intellectually and experentially (through practice) explored to verify (or deny) it's veracity. Which would then enable another to share in the understanding, or disagree if something is found to be "off".

 

Although in this case, if something is found to be "off" it is (imo) an indication of misunderstanding.

 

Soo, I don't understand, or see, what would have been set forth by anyone here to warrant what appears to be a refutation on your part.

 

 

Maybe think of it like this...

 

You read about tasting ice cream, and have the desire to taste it.  Some else has read your same description and tasted ice milk, so they are sure that they know that what they tasted is the same thing.  They then mentally define ice milk as ice cream for everyone...

 

Then, someone comes along and says "something is found to be off", and the group in their mental understanding tells that person that it is obviously "an indication of their misunderstanding".

 

Ice cream is much richer and creamier than ice milk, and that difference must be experienced and not read or discussed, but the mind naturally likes to attach to its definitions/constructs.

 

Dive deep, be curious and playful like a little child...  This is why tantra is such a useful approach as you focus on the ice cream itself, and not the definition of it...

[Jeff]

48 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Hi Jeff,

 

One conceptual framework I understand things through is a Kabbalistic one. 

 

The three "parts" of "consciousness/God" as I understand...

 

Ain - "The Emptiness", the Primordial No-Thing-Ness ... The true nature of God is completely beyond the comprehension of mental, emotional, physical being - that God is neither "something" nor "nothing".  

 

Ain Soph - "The Infinite" - Yet from this primordial no-thingness, something arises.  This quality is infinite potential.

 

Ain Soph Or - "The Light" or "The Infinite Light" which manifests to us as Awareness.

 

I understand this "framework" as relates to my own consciousness... so "Ain soph" being the infinite potential of thoughts that could arise... "Ain Soph Or" is the awareness, and "Ain" is tracing thoughts back and finding no source. 

 

This appears to me as being "form is emptiness", because even though we do not find anything as we trace our thoughts back, there is still "something" there...

 

How does this compare to your idea of a blackboard? It sounds similar... Basically there is a principal (Ain or Emptiness) that is unable to be experienced, in which all things arise.

 

 

This framework is different that what I am describing and also different than the Dzogchen concept of emptiness.  This is much more like the AV model with Brahman as the "base" and Atman (as the individual framework) as the limiter. This view would be like my old discussions with Dwai where the One = Tao.

 

The part of the Heart sutra that is often misunderstood is people think it is only "Form = Emptiness" and that is the same as Neti-Neti or everything drops to Void.  But, it is also, Emptiness = Form, or everything exists (or appears out of) emptiness.  The true magic of buddha's emptiness is that it is both of these at the same time, and that is the part that is "beyond" mind.

 

My personal view would say that Buddha should have described an additional aspect and that is what I call the "primordial" to differentiate it a little.  Like I have said before, my view would be more the integration or blend of KS and Dzogchen. 

[ilumairen]

33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Maybe think of it like this...

 

You read about tasting ice cream, and have the desire to taste it.  Some else has read your same description and tasted ice milk, so they are sure that they know that what they tasted is the same thing.  They then mentally define ice milk as ice cream for everyone...

 

Then, someone comes along and says "something is found to be off", and the group in their mental understanding tells that person that it is obviously "an indication of their misunderstanding".

 

Ice cream is much richer and creamier than ice milk, and that difference must be experienced and not read or discussed, but the mind naturally likes to attach to its definitions/constructs.

 

Dive deep, be curious and playful like a little child...  This is why tantra is such a useful approach as you focus on the ice cream itself, and not the definition of it...

 

Thank you for the attempt.

 

 :written with pursed lips:

 

I recall using a similar analogy regarding an orange, to highlight the importance of practice. 

 

58 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

There is a presupposition in this statement. You are (apparently) refuting an idea of scripture leading to mental understanding, although it is a mentally constructed sharing of understanding - which can be contemplated, intellectually and experentially (through practice) explored to verify (or deny) it's veracity. Which would then enable another to share in the understanding, or disagree if something is found to be "off".

 

What the hell do you think "experientially (through practice) explored" means, if not "discovering the taste for oneself"?

 

And why would you believe a regurgitation of what I presented with many more words would clarify anything of what you posited regarding the heart sutra and understanding?

 

Perhaps I should have written the phrase "explored through practice", instead of assuming "experentially (through practice) explored" would cover what I was pointing towards, and that you would make a genuine effort to understand - instead of taking another opportunity to set yourself above and pontificate like I'm some sort of child who has never tasted ice cream. 

 

I know you don't understand my frustration with the words you sometimes share and the manner in which you share them, and while I'm going to take a brief break for the moment, we can certainly take this to PM and perhaps come to some understanding. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by ilumairen

[Fa Xin]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

This framework is different that what I am describing and also different than the Dzogchen concept of emptiness.  This is much more like the AV model with Brahman as the "base" and Atman (as the individual framework) as the limiter. This view would be like my old discussions with Dwai where the One = Tao.

Ahhh yes, I remember those discussions. Too heady for me. But thank you for the clarification. 

 

i think I’m just happier with my proverbial head in the sand about this topic, continuing along on my enjoying of energy, the present moment, and forgetting about trying to “understand emptiness”.

 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Thank you for the attempt.

 

 :written with pursed lips:

 

I recall using a similar analogy regarding an orange, to highlight the importance of practice. 

 

What the hell do you think "experientially (through practice) explored" means, if not "discovering the taste for oneself"?

 

And why would you believe a regurgitation of what I presented with many more words would clarify anything of what you posited regarding the heart sutra and understanding?

 

Perhaps I should have written the phrase "explored through practice", instead of assuming "experentially (through practice) explored" would cover what I was pointing towards, and that you would make a genuine effort to understand - instead of taking another opportunity to set yourself above and pontificate like I'm some sort of child who has never tasted ice cream. 

 

I know you don't understand my frustration with the words you sometimes share and the manner in which you share them, and while I'm going to take a brief break for the moment, we can certainly take this to PM and perhaps come to some understanding. 

 

Actually, to me we seem more to be talking Oranges and Apples (or Ice cream for me).  And you seem to be totally missing my point on children and ice cream.  I am definitely not calling you a child.  I have been saying that one should approach it all with a child like curiosity. Exploring and playful. Mental maps with an assumption that you then verify or not, are not effective. They are a mental trap. One does not use "mind" to escape "mind".

 

With my many extra words, I have been attempting to differentiate our opinions, just as I did with Fa Xin on his question.

 

I don't understand your frustration with me, but I can definitely feel it.  

 

Is your frustration with my words based upon the fact that I seem confident of my position? Or the fact that I disagree with some aspects of various traditions?

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Ahhh yes, I remember those discussions. Too heady for me. But thank you for the clarification. 

 

i think I’m just happier with my proverbial head in the sand about this topic, continuing along on my enjoying of energy, the present moment, and forgetting about trying to “understand emptiness”.

 

 

Wise man.  Also, I thought this thread was supposed about Tantra...

 

And the beauty of that is that it cuts across all traditions with no need to get caught up in frameworks.  Just be curious,  play, and find the best ice cream to eat.  

 

Just dont get too attached to the ice cream, otherwise you know what happens...

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Just dont get too attached to the ice cream, otherwise you know what happens...

 

Yes... I have to buy new pants!

[Apech]

The great thing about Tantra is that it can involve all human faculties - as does yoga actually.

 

Sutras as the name implies create a thread of meaning which supports practice - while Tantras (where the word tantra can have the meaning continuity) stress the continuum of the  Mind or perhaps Buddha-nature.  Actually if you absorb Dharma you don't have to worry much about the distinction between experience and thought - as the purpose is either to provoke thought - Hinayana sutra - or inspire the conditions for experiences - beyond that of course is that which is no longer an experience as such - a realisation.

 

In Yoga there is Jnana Yoga which is valid path to liberation through study and understanding.  In the moment of true realisations there is an understanding - a kind of coming together of ideas where joined to experience you see that 'oh that's what it meant!'

[ilumairen]

8 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

I would have to disagree that the Heart Sutra has anything to do with a mental understanding. Both sides are about realizations of being.

 

Steve responded:

 

5 hours ago, steve said:

In my view, anything put down in words requires a mental understanding. While it may point to non-conceptual "understanding" it cannot escape the conceptual vehicle. We must read and then interpret the words, linking them to a conceptual image of whatever the words are pointing to. The very idea that a scripture has nothing to do with mental understanding is a clue to just how insidious and pervasive the conceptual mind is in our life and practice. 

 

Jeff responded: 

 

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

While I would agree that anything put down in words require a mental understanding, I would argue that it is impossible to truly understand the meaning of the Heart sutra without the realization of emptiness itself.  Emptiness is "beyond the mind", and can not be built up from a basis of mental understanding. Words are nothing but pointers, and a great danger when they become a descriptive basis for the conceptual mind to lock into a framework.

 

To me, the very idea that the scripture can lead to a "true" mental understanding is the insidious part. 

 

And I sought clarification on what clearly looked to be intended as refutation:

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

This isn't necessarily what's being said, and the argument may be another strawman fallacy, although I do not understand your position well enough to thoroughly determine if this is the case or not.

 

Please clarify both the assertion you believe you are refuting, and your refutation.

 

And now we're at ice cream. 

 

A quote of W.C. Fields comes to mind, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."

 

Jeff, if you're actually interested in what I find frustrating in our interactions then don't set either/or suppositions before me, or make assumptions, but actually PM me and ask.

 

[Pilgrim]

23 hours ago, dwai said:

In my experience, single pointedness only comes from the yogic method of pratyahara (sense withdrawal)  followed by dharana (concentration on an object of meditation). Sensory experiences can be a hurdle in the path of attaining single-pointedness. I've seen this both from the Yogic as well as the Taoist meditation perspective. 

 Pratyahara ( Sense Withdrawl )  is required and can be done in many ways by yogic technique how you turn the senses inwards and withdraw the life force into the central channel that was previously enlivening the ever extroverted senses by means of introversion is dependent upon your practice.

 

In Kriya Yoga we use a series of techniques that first take one from the outer world to the inner. Over time the practitioner can do this very swiftly within the first few moments of sitting even. 

 

Pratyahara / Sense withdraw becomes a very simple matter it is more getting a feeling for doing it than anything else. 

 

The object of meditation in Kriya is the triple divine qualities a psychospiritual force. The triple divine qualities are also a byproduct of friction.  Friction with what?  1.The Astral body and the blockages or Samskaras within that system. The whole motion is one of reversing the process of having been born and taking human form in a way so that one comes to consciously realize their true nature. The short version of this is an often used and seldom understood phrase:  self realization,  but that is just the beginning,

 

The triple divine qualities are as follows and defined they are all astral in nature and non physical but the human nervous system registers pleasure in an attempt to translate them. They are an psychospiritual force and are of Shakti.

 

1.Divine vibration and pulsation can manifest as Pulsation, Vibration and Electrical like qualities. as with all that follow the goal is to seek the source of this psychospirittual force by going deep into it to its core.

 

2. Divine Sound is the inner sound one hears it has nothing to do with the normal sese of hearing and it is in fact arising from Divine vibration. This is how the true Om is felt and heard as well as bija and mantra true mantra not the vocalizations so many traditions adhere to or even the mental verbalization. True Mantra comes from Divine vibration and consciousness attuned in such a way that the vibration is discovered. 

 

3. Divine light is the most refined of the three and is from the most refined vibration.

 

Know that these things are only perceivable once a degree of sense withdraw into stillness and spaciousness are accomplished. It does not have to be complete or total sense withdraw   The reason is as follows.

 

These triple divine qualities all manifest from stillness and spaciousness. 

 

Once even a small degree of sense withdraw occurs these triple divine qualities begin to manifest it is by technique of Kriya Yoga of Hariharananda they are worked with and worked with differently in different levels of Kriya.

 

So if all you accomplish is sense withdraw without knowing what to do next and you start getting the triple divine qualities which are blissful and do feel pleasurable then you have hit a roadblock. You can hang out and experience them of course enjoy them and call it a day.

 

In Kriya however we do not stop there.

 

The triple divine qualities guided in the channels and the chakras take on a different dimension if inner life. In each and every practice the introversion becomes more and more profound then becomes the object of Meditation (Dharana)

 

The culmination of practice is the practice of Jyoti Mudra where if you look at my avatar you will see what advanced Kriyabans experience.

 

After this we sit in what is called the Paravastha of Kriya. This is an interesting thing  Kriya means action even though one is sitting    Kriya is different than allot of traditions in that once Samadhi is achieved we learn how to be in samadhi while engaging in the world.  We first learn this by the techniques of Kriya which at first make you think is this right? why would I dive deep only to have to perform a technique that requires stretching the body?  I don't want to do this it takes me out of my tranquility.

 

In time you become used to carrying the tranquility of samadhi with seeds in action and not be a slave to the cushion and this makes the practice highly practical and valuable.

 

After all the Kriyas are done we reside and abide in the fontanel and do NO Thing whatsoever at all only sit and calmly abide.

 

In my case as the stillness settles over me like a blanket and the senses introvert once again the triple divine qualities shower down upon me from the crown and I feel divine vibration literally shower down upon the whole body in blissful waves over and over again and where the encounter resistance resonate and generate friction and then from the friction which is a byproduct of the divine vibration causing purification as it changes the vibratory frequency of the obstruction it encounters divine sound begins.

 

And before long divine light as well but most important of the three is divine vibration you must get that first otherwise there is no true purification going on just faithful beliefs and trust in tradition.

 

Once the triple divine qualities become strong the entire body vibrates with the frequency of OM and OM is most certainly heard so loudly at times that on may rightly wonder if it is waking up the whole neighborhood.

 

These triple divine qualities take charge and realign the astral body. In Kriyabans like myself whose alignment is sufficient a very curious and extremely odd physical manifestation occurs.

 

The Triple divine qualities having living consciousness and a decidedly female presence guide divine union and form the true Shiva Lingham via the method known as Kechari Mudra which if forced is a farce but when guided by Shakti is very real.

 

What happens is the tongue seeks to go upwards slide up along the back wall of the throat and penetrate in to the cave above.

 

When this happens duality within the being as male and female cease to exist. For you become the penetrator and the penetrated. The tongue becomes the lingham and the soft pallet and the womb above the Yoni.

 

 This to be clear happens in the physical it is not a metaphor.

 

To be equally clear it happens first in the astral which then the physical follows.

 

Many make the error of doing it physically which is mistake. One must only form the mudra when in deep practice and when the triple divine qualities make it happen you just get out of the way and watch as it happens on it's own it is quite wonderful.

 

Now when this rather odd union takes place we understand experientially that this is the true Yab Yum the true Shiva and Shakti taking place.

 

What follows is the circuit has been made complete from crown to base and the sushumna opens wide allowing the energy to pour in from a dilated crown and flood the central channel and rebound upwards and if allowed to continue growing ever stronger you will follow it with all your being to a point of absorption where nothing but this exists and your awareness will change and become like unto the expanded awareness of the cosmos and so much will flood into  you and will become known and enter the deepest samadhi state where your heart will stop and your lungs will have no reason to work.

 

This is dangerous.

 

It is dangerous because you may not come back.  This happened to Lahiri Mahasay the founder of Kriya Yoga I will tell this story at the end of this post.

 

It is dangerous because if you do come back as I have you will be reluctant and resistant to leave the peace and serenity beyond measure for this human life. Then you will have to learn how to integrate being here when you already know beyond a shadow of a doubt the other is better beyond words yet you need to be here for the experience of life that you took incarnation for in the first place so you dare not tempt this.

 

Once a person has had Nirvakalpa Samadhi  the feel for how it is done and the avenue to take for it known it is able to be avoided in favor of less dangerous absorption.

 

The way of opening oneself to be a vessel for the soul to fill with all its power through the crown chakra is a path to Mahasamadhi.

 

In order to avoid this as it is an extremely high state of energy required to open the seal and enter the casual realm one simply does not allow the dilation of the crown chakra to become so wide open nor focus so much on what the energy is doing until the mind is completely absorbed.

 

After this occurred more than once I learned a great many things many things were taught to me and not by people and not by words but by the living force behind the triple divine qualities.

 

While seated one day after the practices were completed and abiding in the crown chakra and sense introversion began the triple divine qualities made Kechari Mudra occur and then even greater energies came in and aligned my channels and dilated Sushumna  at this point I am completely introverted unaware of any surroundings  but this time the energy took on a different behavior.

 

I was shown channels and pathways intuitively not visually. And watched as a decidedly female presence shaped and guided the energy of divine vibration into these channels.

 

For some reason the energy entered the penis and caused a throbbing erection which I had no interest in doing anything about but was fascinated this could occur and continued watching what the energy did.  I learned that even though taught that the pathways start at the crown chakra and end in Muladhara the base chakra rear and front Kshetram ( Trigger Points) being the Coccyx and Perineum respectively  that it was not an entirely complete teaching that the patch actual ends at the tip of the glans where the Jewel Tip Chakra is located.

 

So here I was sitting like a passenger watching experiencing feeling all of this going on completely absorbed in the inner world and divorced from the physical world going on outside my closed cell of a room.

 

My entire central channel was full of divine vibration from Crown to Jewel Tip Chakra note I am not saying physical body. Astral body.

 

Now with the astral system charged up and enduring blissful ecstatic orgasmic sensation to the point of not enjoyment but enduring yet not painful more like to the threshold of ones ability to do so and remain aware a curious thing happened.

 

She being the energy guided herself and gathered at a point below the navel and this changed the vibration in the system into a lower throbbing type of orgasmic feeling here the energy was pulled and compressed and grew hot.

 

Then I felt it rise like a flame up the central channel and as it did I became aware the physical body was growing hot like a furnace and huge gouts of sweat giant drops were streaming off of the skin.

 

Yet the internal focus persisted and I watches the body with some concern and about this time realized I had not been breathing for quite some time. 

 

It is a curious delima when you realize you do not know if you are on the out breathe nor the in breathe and do not know where to take it back up from either exhalation or inhalation.

 

So I exhaled and realized there was not much there upon inhalation I realized how hot the body was as it felt as if I were inhaling hot air from an oven whose door had been opened.

 

This pretty much ended this session as I feared doing damage to the body as the heat was ever building. There I was left sitting with an erection that was throbbing like crazy and sweat everywhere soaking wet. 

 

So after doing some Kriya Mahamudra to realign the energy in the body I took up my cushion again with this persistent erection and sat until I felt cool inside, Kechari continued to form and I would bring the tongue back down as it constantly seeks the pituitary gland above the Sphenoid Sinus encased in the sella turcica bone shell,  this structure can be felt with the tip of the tongue. Here there is an energetic connection. and there is a spongy soft pocket here where the tongue rest naturally.

 

After some time everything calmed down and I went about my business a bit perplexed. 

 

Shortly thereafter and many sessions many things were shown to me including the full practice of Tummo. 

 

Tummo eventually led to consort practice where the heretofore only felt female presence took on astral shape and form and then the things of the statue makers became fulfilled as surly as if a flesh and blood woman had mounted me.

 

I now understood the pictures and the statues were depicting a reality not an imagining and not a physical joining which would be a mockery of the actual experience which is more real.

 

This female essence taken form joined and taught me how and where to move the energies between us to cause the bindu to melt and many more things. 

 

 At about this time I contacted Jeff and asked him if he had any idea what this was that was going on and he told me to look into the 6 yogas of Naropa and see if their were similarities.

 

Needless to say I was astounded.  Later i discovered other books which described things in greater detail and aligned with my experiences.

 

Over time between this and Kriya great transformations took place and over-swept my physical life changing everything there as well. In time the Divine Mother,  Consort, Shakti,  Kali however you will call her gifted me with my lady a avatar of the divine female principle if ever there was one.

 

To say Tantra,  Tummo and True consort practice is trans-formative is as understated of an understatement that could possibly be made. People should really be careful with these practice you may get one whole hell of allot more changes than you can possibly imagine.  I know I sure did and I watched peoples Karma accelerate in my presence at an astounding rate.

 

Something I want to bring out is all of this is Divine energy from the Divine Mother and she most certainly transforms you by it. To understand what I am saying you must understand like this.

 

If I take a tuning fork and tap it it begins vibrating if I place another tuning fork next to it it will pick up the vibration of the first. It is like that.

 

The pleasure component is inescapable but not the goal it is the part that holds mind to single pointed absorption like nothing else can.

 

Tummo and consort practice are not in the category of complete absorption and samadhi. They are also outside or the realm of Patanjalis Yoga Sutras and remind me of Tantric sorcery.  I think it could be very dangerous for someone to tamper with the divine female principle least their intentions are pure and devoted.

 

To practice tummo effectively however a background in the yoga that leads to the triple divine qualities is essential as I have described.

 

Now for the Story of Lahiri Baba as told to me by his Great Grandson Shibendu Lahiri in private.

 

Shibendu told me with great respect and solemnity he reserves for his Great Grandfather above all others that Lahiri Mahasaya was sitting in Nirvikalpa Samadhi the state of no heart beat and not breathing as was his custom and he knew this was going to be a prolonged practice and instructed his wife not to move his body no matter what she witnessed or how long it took. 

 

For some reason that remains a mystery she did not remember and upon finding her husband in that state planned his funeral and carried it out.

 

It is not known why she did this and only remembered his instructions after the fact.

 

I speculate that Lahiri Baba had his reasons and once in Nirvakalpa Samadhi decided not to return or could not find his way back which I do know is a risk and the body perished.