Tantra...

[mrpasserby]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

There are rituals to invoke the blessing of deities (lower tantra) and rituals to become the deity (higher tantra), involving mantra, visualization, ritual items, etc.  The specifics depend on the particular practice, but they typically share a common structure.  Initiation is what allows something mind-based like visualization to actually connect to the deity.

Thanks, this is realy good information. When I was young one of my spirit guides was in the room when a stick figure cartoon came on the tv showing what you have taught me are the rituals to become the deity (higher tantra). This cartoon startled my spirit guide (who would not say why) into speechlessness, so I have been curious if anyone ever new what this becoming the deity was all about. Many thanks 

Edited June 24, 2019 by mrpasserby
added content

[mrpasserby]

5 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

It is my understanding in Buddhism there is no actual connecting to a deity. It is much like Guru yoga where it is more symbolic and is a means of realizing the qualities the deity represents within oneself.

Thanks, but then who gives you the initiation, also the test that usually seams to follow? 

[Creation]

4 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

It is my understanding in Buddhism there is no actual connecting to a deity. It is much like Guru yoga where it is more symbolic and is a means of realizing the qualities the deity represents within oneself.

One can find some justification of this in the doctrine of Buddha-nature, and it is often taught this way to Westerners who are uncomfortable with connecting to external deities.  I personally think this is an incomplete picture of things.  Certainly most Tibetans think there is actual connecting to deities. 

[Jonesboy]

20 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

Thanks, but then who gives you the initiation, also the test that usually seams to follow? 

 

It’s an empowerment to help with the practice.

[Jonesboy]

20 minutes ago, Creation said:

One can find some justification of this in the doctrine of Buddha-nature, and it is often taught this way to Westerners who are uncomfortable with connecting to external deities.  I personally think this is an incomplete picture of things.  Certainly most Tibetans think there is actual connecting to deities. 

 

Interesting, do you have any teachings to show it is a connection? I have had many discussions with serious Buddhist practitioners and all have said it is not a connection.

 

 I don’t believe the Tibetans give one set of teachings to non Tibetans and another to Tibetans.

[ilumairen]

14 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

It is my understanding in Buddhism there is no actual connecting to a deity. It is much like Guru yoga where it is more symbolic and is a means of realizing the qualities the deity represents within oneself.

 

In Bön, Tapihritsa is a living buddha, and not just the product of our imagination. We certainly do connect in our practice of guru yoga.

 

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

In Bön, Tapihritsa is a living buddha, and not just the product of our imagination. We certainly do connect in our practice of guru yoga.

 

 

Nobody is saying it is a product of your imagination. You know I believe Buddha’s are real and that one can connect to them, merge with them and that it is extremely beneficial. I have been told many times such things are not possible and not what is being taught in Buddhism.

 

Can you show me where it says you are connecting with a guru? Isn’t it more the absolute guru, what the guru represents rather than a direct sharing with a teacher/person?

 

Much of this was discussed here.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Jonesboy

[ilumairen]

Just now, Jonesboy said:

 

Nobody is saying it is a product of your imagination. You know I believe Buddha’s are real and that one can connect to them, merge with them and that it is extremely beneficial.

 

Was sharing a bit of the instruction for the practice, basically as written in the practice booklet for the Ngondro as taught by TWR (not defending a personal position).

 

Just now, Jonesboy said:

Can you show me where it says you are connecting with a guru? Isn’t it more the absolute guru, what the guru represents rather than a direct sharing with a teacher/person.

 

Connecting with Tapihritsa (a living buddha), as "the real embodiment" of the three kayas, the three jewels, all the masters, all the buddhas... "and the embodiment of your root lama."

 

[ilumairen]

 

46 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Much of this was discussed here.

 

 

 

I see you added a link to another thread, and understand this topic is personally important to you. 

 

Perhaps tomorrow I'll take some time to read more of the thread you shared, however I don't know how much I want to become involved with yet another ongoing debate on this site - especially when I don't quite understand what the debate is about.

[Jonesboy]

7 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Was sharing a bit of the instruction for the practice, basically as written in the practice booklet for the Ngondro as taught by TWR (not defending a personal position).

 

 

Connecting with Tapihritsa (a living buddha), as "the real embodiment" of the three kayas, the three jewels, all the masters, all the buddhas... "and the embodiment of your root lama."

 

 

I am not sure I am following you. Ngondro is a connecting practice to Tapihritsa? Mind sharing some more information on that?

[Jonesboy]

7 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

I see you added a link to another thread, and understand this topic is personally important to you. 

 

Perhaps tomorrow I'll take some time to read more of the thread you shared, however I don't know how much I want to become involved with yet another ongoing debate on this site - especially when I don't quite understand what the debate is about.

 

It’s just a discussion on guru and connecting/merging with divine beings with Apech and CT.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

It’s just a discussion on guru and connecting/merging with divine beings with Apech and CT.

 

It’s just a discussion on guru and connecting/merging with divine beings with Apech and CT.

 

Corrected that for you

[Kar3n]

Was hopeful this would be a fruitful discussion, however, folks seem intent on petty bickering to "clarify" their position so as to make sure they are rightfully heard.

 

The lesson here could be tantric for some if indulging the ego is as pleasurable for them as it is maddening for me.

 

It's been fun, but not real fun. 

 

Peace, out.

[Apech]

48 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Was hopeful this would be a fruitful discussion, however, folks seem intent on petty bickering to "clarify" their position so as to make sure they are rightfully heard.

 

The lesson here could be tantric for some if indulging the ego is as pleasurable for them as it is maddening for me.

 

It's been fun, but not real fun. 

 

Peace, out.

 

Sorry you feel that way - It's seemed like quite a jovial and interesting thread for me so far.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I am not sure I am following you. Ngondro is a connecting practice to Tapihritsa? Mind sharing some more information on that?

 

 

I can't answer for the Bon practice quoted by Ilu but from my experience the Ngondro is about connecting to the 'deity' Vajradhara (in the case of Kagyu Buddhism).  The difference between this and an empowerment sadhana is that with the Ngondro although there is an oral transmission (lung) of the text - the practice is something you develop yourself and does not rely on a 'wang' empowerment.  In the guru yoga stage the idea is to receive blessings from the guru visualised as Vajradhara (Dorje Chang).

 

 

[Jonesboy]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I can't answer for the Bon practice quoted by Ilu but from my experience the Ngondro is about connecting to the 'deity' Vajradhara (in the case of Kagyu Buddhism).  The difference between this and an empowerment sadhana is that with the Ngondro although there is an oral transmission (lung) of the text - the practice is something you develop yourself and does not rely on a 'wang' empowerment.  In the guru yoga stage the idea is to receive blessings from the guru visualised as Vajradhara (Dorje Chang).

 

 

 

What?

 

We had pages where you said such a thing was not in Buddhism. Now, Buddhism does connect to a deity?

 

I went years thinking that Buddhism did connect and did do mind to mind stuff. Yet, I was corrected and told that was wrong. Now they do again?

 

Crazy how difficult it is to get a straight/definitive answer..

 

I have also seen people get laughed at for thinking such things at the dharmawheel.. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

What?

 

We had pages where you said such a thing was not in Buddhism. Now, Buddhism does connect to a deity?

 

I went years thinking that Buddhism did connect and did do mind to mind stuff. Yet, I was corrected and told that was wrong. Now they do again?

 

Crazy how difficult it is to get a straight/definitive answer..

 

I have also seen people get laughed at for thinking such things at the dharmawheel.. 

 

I will have to go back and check what I said - but I'm pretty sure I argued that there was transmission and 'merging' of a kind.  Forget Dharmawheel - I looked on there after Jeff gave me the link.  You have to remember there are very many schools of buddhism which do not agree on what is going on - while they might agree on the general idea of enlightenment and so on.  For instance Theravadans dismiss all of Mahayana and Vajrayana ( even more so) as fantasy.

 

PS.  the sanctified Malcolm (who I have a lot of respect for in many ways) is no longer on Dharmawheel.

[C T]

9 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

It is my understanding in Buddhism there is no actual connecting to a deity. It is much like Guru yoga where it is more symbolic and is a means of realizing the qualities the deity represents within oneself.

 

Perhaps a more workable terminology would be Embodiment rather than connection. At least thats how it goes in authentic Guru Yoga wrt to fruition. There's also the ground and path prior to that (fruition), although these may not necessarily be linear since a true refuge seeker will ultimately realize the inseparability of the yanas, kayas, and so forth, culminating in Ekayana, or solitary vehicle of reality (which is beyond past, present and future, and where notions of Is or Is Not no longer applies). As the layers of delusion peel away, this inseparability can be seen with increasing clarity. Teachers like to use the metaphor of the moon gradually appearing as if to emerge from behind the clouds when in fact the moon neither appears or disappears but conventionally thats how people think. So tantra comes in to help with deconstructing the rigidities of such conventions. 

 

Ekayana fruition combines working with the View (which the Vajradhara points out to the ripened mindstream of the practitioner) and then supported afterwards with the various yogas to gain stability of that View (for eg Mahayoga - learning to be fearless in terms of working with negative emotions, Anuyoga - learning to transform desires, and finally Atiyoga - the direct way to cut thru ignorance). Symbols are often used, as you said, but these are by no means the limit in terms of practical applications as there is a vast array of resources available for the enjoyment of the serious (or playful.... both works) yogi or yogini. 

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

What?

 

We had pages where you said such a thing was not in Buddhism. Now, Buddhism does connect to a deity?

 

I went years thinking that Buddhism did connect and did do mind to mind stuff. Yet, I was corrected and told that was wrong. Now they do again?

 

Crazy how difficult it is to get a straight/definitive answer..

 

I have also seen people get laughed at for thinking such things at the dharmawheel.. 

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Perhaps a more workable terminology would be Embodiment rather than connection. At least thats how it goes in authentic Guru Yoga wrt to fruition. There's also the ground and path prior to that (fruition), although these may not necessarily be linear since a true refuge seeker will ultimately realize the inseparability of the yanas, kayas, and so forth, culminating in Ekayana, or solitary vehicle of reality (which is beyond past, present and future, and where notions of Is or Is Not no longer applies). As the layers of delusion peel away, this inseparability can be seen with increasing clarity. Teachers like to use the metaphor of the moon gradually appearing as if to emerge from behind the clouds when in fact the moon neither appears or disappears but conventionally thats how people think. So tantra comes in to help with deconstructing the rigidities of such conventions. 

 

Ekayana fruition combines working with the View (which the Vajradhara points out to the ripened mindstream of the practitioner) and then supported afterwards with the various yogas to gain stability of that View (for eg Mahayoga - learning to be fearless in terms of working with negative emotions, Anuyoga - learning to transform desires, and finally Atiyoga - the direct way to cut thru ignorance). Symbols are often used, as you said, but these are by no means the limit in terms of practical applications as there is a vast array of resources available for the enjoyment of the serious (or playful.... both works) yogi or yogini. 

 

Thank you CT but that still doesn't say you are connecting with another being who is providing assistance to realize those qualities within oneself.

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

 

On 1/10/2018 at 11:01 AM, Apech said:

 

Well as you know there are lots of different schools of Buddhism which practice different things.  I wasn't very keen on the Shinzen Young video - and he seems to be versed in Shingon from Japan - but hey what do I know :).  Anyway - no its not symbolic - and why would you wish to merge with anything other than the wisdom-mind of the guru?  Do you wish to merge with other confused and 'ignorant' beings?  And why?

 

Again, it is the Wisdom-mind, the absolute guru, not the being sitting in front of you. 

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Kar3n said:

Was hopeful this would be a fruitful discussion, however, folks seem intent on petty bickering to "clarify" their position so as to make sure they are rightfully heard.

 

This is kernals in the "karmic storehouse" or "smudges on the blackboard" type "stuff".

 

One individual, in wanting to explore the "different potentials" (and express the superiority of their "system") tends to misunderstand and misrepresent what is shared by others. And then comes the fun part, either the individual being misrepresented quietly "submits" to the misrepresentation and lets it stand as is, or things like this post are presented.

 

So either Jeff is left as being "right" about others practice and/or understanding, or it's "petty bickering?

 

Quote

The lesson here could be tantric for some if indulging the ego is as pleasurable for them as it is maddening for me.

 

Perhaps keep considering and looking - with an eye to understand, instead of what comes across as habitual defense.

 

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

 

Again, it is the Wisdom-mind, the absolute guru, not the being sitting in front of you. 

 

Sure because that's the only thing that is real (even though its not a 'thing').

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Apech said:

 

Sure because that's the only thing that is real (even though its not a 'thing').

 

Then one should have no fear of group energy work, because it is with the absolute of each other

 

Here i thought earlier both the conventional and absolute were real?

[C T]

7 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you CT but that still doesn't say you are connecting with another being who is providing assistance to realize those qualities within oneself.

 

Thats how it went across because ideally we dont want to get hung up and fumble on terminologies, I hope. 

 

That realization/actualization of the qualities you mentioned is what "Embodiment" refers to. This embodiment is effected post-connection. Connection is the point of contact - embodiment is the process of establishing a continuum of contact, if that makes any sense.