Tantra...

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Then one should have no fear of group energy work, because it is with the absolute of each other

 

Here i thought earlier both the conventional and absolute were real?

 

You lost me there.  Do group energy work if you want but I assume with beings who do so willingly (which is a completely different issue of course).

 

Conventional truth and absolute truth are valid ideas, yes.

[Jonesboy]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Thats how it went across because ideally we dont want to get hung up and fumble on terminologies, I hope. 

 

That realization/actualization of the qualities you mentioned is what "Embodiment" refers to. This embodiment is effected post-connection. Connection is the point of contact - embodiment is the process of establishing a continuum of contact, if that makes any sense. 

 

I'm confused, were you not saying the opposite here?

 

On 1/10/2018 at 12:09 PM, C T said:

The idea of merging with the enlightened symbols of the buddhas (as represented by one's teacher) occurs during the conceptual or generation phases of guru yoga. Integral to this stage of practice is to gain stability and faith in the recognition that the external guru is none other than the embodiment of the enlightened qualities of all the buddhas of the three times, and one then begin to adopt similar qualities using the guru as the perfect guide and example. Traditionally, thats how it was done, before gurus' reputations became a thing to be scrutinised and questioned.

 

Following on from the above, during the completion stage, or the phase of embodiment, the qualities of one's yidam, recognised, revealed, and absorbed during the generation practices, are fully acknowledged as in fact inseparable from one's own intrinsic buddha qualities, which have been there all along but hidden due to various impediments that in the past have tainted and obscured the wisdom inherent in one's own body, speech and mind. Because of this unmistakable seeing that there was no inseparability to begin with, then it will be a mistake at this stage of practice to continue holding on to the idea that there is a kind of merging involved. 

 

 

 

 

Edited for a better quote.. sorry.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Jonesboy

[C T]

4 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I'm confused, where you saying the opposite here?

 

 

 

No, such thing as contact because there is no A and B to connect with..

 

I don't see the contradiction between what was said then and now. If you can point it out more specifically perhaps we can work around it and hopefully dissolve that seeming confusion? 

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

You lost me there.  Do group energy work if you want but I assume with beings who do so willingly (which is a completely different issue of course).

 

Conventional truth and absolute truth are valid ideas, yes.

 

Connecting to a guru is energy work. The ability to directly connect to the pure aspect of a person, bypassing all his/hers current obstructions is some very deep stuff. Being able to do so and if the guru doesn't feel such a connection is very telling.

 

So you are saying in Buddhism, without even say having your crown open you can connect to the absolute aspect of anyone at any time?

[Pilgrim]

10 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Interesting, do you have any teachings to show it is a connection? I have had many discussions with serious Buddhist practitioners and all have said it is not a connection.

 

 I don’t believe the Tibetans give one set of teachings to non Tibetans and another to Tibetans.

Good Morning,

 

I learned of Guru Yoga from the Bon tradition, Specificly from TWR if you know who that is, I always mess up spelling the name. 😁 So Tenzin Wngyal Rinpoche or something like that He is a Tibetan Lama Ligmincha Learning.

 

Anyway the analogy   I use Is not mine when it comes to connecting Taprhitsa Spelling? 

 

He calls it out as a connection and likens it unto downloading software for your computer.

 

In my experience it does feel that way.

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I don't see the contradiction between what was said then and now. If you can point it out more specifically perhaps we can work around it and hopefully dissolve that seeming confusion? 

 

I believe in the other thread it would be completely wrong to believe you are connecting to another being, since it is all within your mind. Maybe I am wrong.

 

So to clarify. For you in Buddhism you can connect or become one/merge with a Buddha or a Guru?

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Good Morning,

 

I learned of Guru Yoga from the Bon tradition, Specificly from TWR if you know who that is, I always mess up spelling the name. 😁 So Tenzin Wngyal Rinpoche or something like that He is a Tibetan Lama Ligmincha Learning.

 

Anyway the analogy   I use Is not mine when it comes to connecting Taprhitsa Spelling? 

 

He calls it out as a connection and likens it unto downloading software for your computer.

 

In my experience it does feel that way.

 

Thank you, I would love to see the teachings on it.

 

It is amazing, we have been talking about merging for years and people have told us we are nuts... and now it seems it has always been part of Buddhist traditions.

[Pilgrim]

52 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I can't answer for the Bon practice quoted by Ilu but from my experience the Ngondro is about connecting to the 'deity' Vajradhara (in the case of Kagyu Buddhism).  The difference between this and an empowerment sadhana is that with the Ngondro although there is an oral transmission (lung) of the text - the practice is something you develop yourself and does not rely on a 'wang' empowerment.  In the guru yoga stage the idea is to receive blessings from the guru visualised as Vajradhara (Dorje Chang).

 

 

Yes very much like this especially in six Lola’s practice with Shindla Odkar which involve purification of the three bodies and the six Lola’s or realms.

 

At the end You merge with Shindla Odkar.

 

There are many shared thing with Bon. But Bon is a bit different from what I can tell but more similar than not.

[Pilgrim]

49 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

What?

 

We had pages where you said such a thing was not in Buddhism. Now, Buddhism does connect to a deity?

 

I went years thinking that Buddhism did connect and did do mind to mind stuff. Yet, I was corrected and told that was wrong. Now they do again?

 

Crazy how difficult it is to get a straight/definitive answer..

 

I have also seen people get laughed at for thinking such things at the dharmawheel.. 

I feel your pain Brother Buddhism has often left me scratching my head going Whisky Tango Foxtrot over!!!  Repeat did not copy!!

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Connecting to a guru is energy work. The ability to directly connect to the pure aspect of a person, bypassing all his/hers current obstructions is some very deep stuff. Being able to do so and if the guru doesn't feel such a connection is very telling.

 

Yes as you put it Tantric Yoga is very deep stuff.  However the whole point of the Ngondro is that it is practice developed over years, it gets more powerful as it goes on.  Siddhis develop over time.

 

7 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

So you are saying in Buddhism, without even say having your crown open you can connect to the absolute aspect of anyone at any time?

 

No I haven't said that - if I said anything that sounds remotely like that I must have expressed my self badly.  

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Apech said:

 

Yes as you put it Tantric Yoga is very deep stuff.  However the whole point of the Ngondro is that it is practice developed over years, it gets more powerful as it goes on.  Siddhis develop over time.

 

 

No I haven't said that - if I said anything that sounds remotely like that I must have expressed my self badly.  

 

Do you know anyone that can connect to the absolute aspect of another?

 

If so, I would love to met them and observe/experiment with such a person if they were willing.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Do you know anyone that can connect to the absolute aspect of another?

 

If so, I would love to met them and observe/experiment with such a person if they were willing.

 

Not currently.

 

 

[C T]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I believe in the other thread it would be completely wrong to believe you are connecting to another being, since it is all within your mind. Maybe I am wrong.

 

So to clarify. For you in Buddhism you can connect or become one/merge with a Buddha or a Guru?

 

My understanding is that one's primordial nature from beginningless time has never been separated, fragmented, or incomplete. 

 

Since there is no fragmentation, the question of merging (becoming one?) is moot, but I can understand where there are those who struggle with the concept of an already perfect self nature. After all, its common to form the assumption that if we are thusly perfect, there is nothing to do, right.... so why exert effort to practice? The short answer is that practice stabilises the View, which at the beginning is rather fragile (see that analogy of the newborn in that quote you dug up).

 

Doing anything does not make it more perfect, and not doing anything does not hinder/reduce its perfected quality.... so, from the Dzogchen perspective, the encouragement is to gain confidence in the knowledge of this primordial completeness aka great perfection. In a nutshell, Dzogchen introduces the unmistakable View, and tantric methods cement that recognition of the View until its completely integrated in being ie body, speech and mind attains adamantine clarity, like buddhas. 

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

Not currently.

 

 

 

I know one person, so it would have been interesting to compare.

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I know one person, so it would have been interesting to compare.

 

 

Life is full of missed opportunities

[Jonesboy]

Just now, C T said:

 

My understanding is that one's primordial nature from beginningless time has never been separated, fragmented, or incomplete. 

 

Since there is no fragmentation, the question of merging (becoming one?) is moot, but I can understand where there are those who struggle with the concept of an already perfect self nature. After all, its common to form the assumption that if we are thusly perfect, there is nothing to do, right.... so why exert effort to practice? The short answer is that practice stabilises the View, which at the beginning is rather fragile (see that analogy of the newborn in that quote you dug up).

 

Doing anything does not make it more perfect, and not doing anything does not hinder/reduce its perfected quality.... so, from the Dzogchen perspective, the encouragement is to gain confidence in the knowledge of this primordial completeness aka great perfection. In a nutshell, Dzogchen introduces the unmistakable View, and tantric methods cement that recognition of the View until its completely integrated in being ie body, speech and mind attains adamantine clarity, like buddhas. 

 

Until that view is truly realized they are doing.. lot's of being.. but still some doing. Maybe some doing to help that being be more often.. but still..

 

I believe in a perfect self nature. I also believe there is nothing wrong with connecting to a Buddha to help get one closer to that realization... Intent.. then it is a being..

[Pilgrim]

13 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you, I would love to see the teachings on it.

 

It is amazing, we have been talking about merging for years and people have told us we are nuts... and now it seems it has always been part of Buddhist traditions.

I would love to share it but these are courses on Ligmincha learning site one has to pay for.

 

They include video, guided practices and written materials.

 

I am sorry but sharing those things is forbidden and illegal also copyright stuf etc....

 

These things we are discussing are included in the Ngondro course. It is a very long course that some people do for the rest of their lives.

 

It is very thorough and they have weekly group sessions via zoom led by a wonderful man and teacher John Jackson.

 

Very personable I have spoken with him on the phone in private and I think with all your background and studies you would not only get a lot out of it but enjoy it as well.

 

As you can see there are other courses there too.

 

https://www.ligminchalearning.com/

[Pilgrim]

Darn I forgot TWR does give a lot away for free.

 

Here is one of his utube videos doing Guru Yoga practice. Not sure he uses the same phrase short on time but want you to see this Jonesboy. 😊 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Pilgrim

[C T]

13 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Until that view is truly realized they are doing.. lot's of being.. but still some doing. Maybe some doing to help that being be more often.. but still..

 

I believe in a perfect self nature. I also believe there is nothing wrong with connecting to a Buddha to help get one closer to that realization... Intent.. then it is a being..

 

Of course. Surely it wont help to fall into the error of imagining that relative considerations are somehow anathema, regardless of the proportion of time spent immersed in the View of the great perfection. 

[ilumairen]

Undifferentiated essence would be a bit like water flowing into water... 

[ilumairen]

And guru yoga, as preliminary practice, would be a bit like drinking from a font.. 

 

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Of course. Surely it wont help to fall into the error of imagining that relative considerations are somehow anathema, regardless of the proportion of time spent immersed in the View of the great perfection. 

 

I like the "two eyes of valid cognition."

[Pilgrim]

Sorry not the best example of the practice in the video in the actual teaching he goes way more in depth this is very on the surface.

 

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Sorry not the best example of the practice in the video in the actual teaching he goes way more in depth this is very on the surface.

 

 

It is the practice, and an excellent example of such. In this, there is a general understanding of having recieved the teachings (and the students he is practicing with have most likely recently received teachings on the practice).

 

 

[Pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

It is the practice, and an excellent example of such. In this, there is a general understanding of having recieved the teachings (and the students he is practicing with have most likely recently received teachings on the practice).

 

 

You are right it is indeed the practice but having learned it already left that part out. Thanks for clarifying that.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Pilgrim