Tantra...

[Jonesboy]

 

34 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Steve responded:

 

 

Jeff responded: 

 

 

And I sought clarification on what clearly looked to be intended as refutation:

 

 

And now we're at ice cream. 

 

A quote of W.C. Fields comes to mind, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."

 

Jeff, if you're actually interested in what I find frustrating in our interactions then don't set either/or suppositions before me, or make assumptions, but actually PM me and ask.

 

 

Please leave me out of your attacks on Jeff or anyone else.

 

I responded to Steve with my view, Jeff responded with his view.

 

Everyone is entitled to their views and there is no need to be shitty to anyone because it may be different from yours.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

36 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Steve responded:

 

Jeff responded: 

 

And I sought clarification on what clearly looked to be intended as refutation:

 

And now we're at ice cream. 

 

A quote of W.C. Fields comes to mind, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."

 

Jeff, if you're actually interested in what I find frustrating in our interactions then don't set either/or suppositions before me, or make assumptions, but actually PM me and ask.

 

 

Baffle them with bullshit...?  You have to be kidding. Everyone can clearly read the thread above and my explanations.  Also, please remember that this supposed to be at thread about Tantra...

 

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

...

 

 :written with pursed lips:

...

 

Have a good weekend...  

[ilumairen]

 

2 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Please leave me out of your attacks on Jeff or anyone else.

 

I responded to Steve with my view, Jeff responded with his view.

 

Everyone is entitled to their views and there is no need to be shitty to anyone because it may be different from yours.

 

He asked:

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Is your frustration with my words based upon the fact that I seem confident of my position? Or the fact that I disagree with some aspects of various traditions?

 

My laying out the conversation and how he appeared to avoid directly responding to my querie was to highlight what is, in fact, frustrating to me, and an honest response - even if it isn't pretty. 

 

imo shitty would be pretending it's all sweet smelling roses without any thorns, or pm'ing somebody's SO about the person - instead of talking with them directly about any confusion or concerns. 

[ilumairen]

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Baffle them with bullshit...?  You have to be kidding. Everyone can clearly read the thread above and my explanations.  Also, please remember that this supposed to be at thread about Tantra...

 

And emptiness has nothing to do with tantra?

 

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Have a good weekend...  

 

Yep, more roses. 

[Apech]

If you visit a lake when the sun is shining - perhaps at dawn - and you look at its surface you see a dazzling field of light, if you look into its depth you see a cool dark stillness - if you jump into the lake what is it then?  Are there three different lakes? No.  Which lake is real - the pool of light, the depths or the skinny dip?

 

Sorry you'll have to excuse me I was having a Zen moment.

 

In any case three different people can argue about the nature of the lake forever - and all can be right.

 

 

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

If you visit a lake when the sun is shining - perhaps at dawn - and you look at its surface you see a dazzling field of light, if you look into its depth you see a cool dark stillness - if you jump into the lake what is it then?  Are there three different lakes? No.  Which lake is real - the pool of light, the depths or the skinny dip?

 

Sorry you'll have to excuse me I was having a Zen moment.

 

In any case three different people can argue about the nature of the lake forever - and all can be right.

 

 

 

Thank you for the cool still water...

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you for the cool still water...

 

 

Could you pour it over Jonesboy?  

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

Could you pour it over Jonesboy?  

 

And now that cool still water is in a pot being stirred...  Oh well...

[Jonesboy]

Jeff,

 

Earlier in the thread you mentioned the blackboard analogy. While what you are describing makes sense to me. What in a spiritual framework would you say the blackboard is?

 

“Think of your self like a giant blackboard. Issues, fears and karma form the chalk writing on the blackboard. When looking at a blackboard, one notices the writing, but not the blackboard itself. Practices help one to erase parts of the blackboard, making it easier to notice the blackboard underneath. But, when a space has been cleared, it is more common to just stay in that nice and clear space, since it is chalk free, but still never noticing the underlying blackboard.

 

When one is hit with parental worries about school and life, those concerns about the future can create (or extend) new writings on the blackboard which can cover old clear areas, or simply just draw ones attention to a new area of the blackboard which is not as clear.

 

The key is realizing that one is and always has been the blackboard. The blackboard knows that it is only chalk and does not have the ability to harm the blackboard. When one "resides" in the blackboard, if someone hits the chalk (issues, fears and karma), the blackboard can immediately let it go and clear the black board in that area.

 

This is why it is helpful (and necessary) to go back into the world. If one is alone on a mountain top, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between a simple clear spot and the entire blackboard. Helping others causes the chalk to be hit all over the blackboard, allowing it to be truly cleared.”

 

 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Jeff,

 

Earlier in the thread you mentioned the blackboard analogy. While what you are describing makes sense to me. What in a spiritual framework would you say the blackboard is?

 

“Think of your self like a giant blackboard. Issues, fears and karma form the chalk writing on the blackboard. When looking at a blackboard, one notices the writing, but not the blackboard itself. Practices help one to erase parts of the blackboard, making it easier to notice the blackboard underneath. But, when a space has been cleared, it is more common to just stay in that nice and clear space, since it is chalk free, but still never noticing the underlying blackboard.

 

When one is hit with parental worries about school and life, those concerns about the future can create (or extend) new writings on the blackboard which can cover old clear areas, or simply just draw ones attention to a new area of the blackboard which is not as clear.

 

The key is realizing that one is and always has been the blackboard. The blackboard knows that it is only chalk and does not have the ability to harm the blackboard. When one "resides" in the blackboard, if someone hits the chalk (issues, fears and karma), the blackboard can immediately let it go and clear the black board in that area.

 

This is why it is helpful (and necessary) to go back into the world. If one is alone on a mountain top, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between a simple clear spot and the entire blackboard. Helping others causes the chalk to be hit all over the blackboard, allowing it to be truly cleared.”

 

 

 

In this specific context I was talking about the "light" or "light level".  My point about "residing" is similar to my earlier comment in response to Steve.

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

I did not mean to give the impression that scriptures can not lead to a mental understanding.

I did not reach that conclusion from your words at all.

 

9 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

My point was the teaching isn't about a mental understanding but a realization of being, a change in being to realize that form=void. It is moving beyond the conceptual, after all isn't that what Buddhism is all about?

I agree that is the subject and objective of the teaching.

My point is that the very nature of scripture and our requisite approach to its form is a mental understanding.

While the teaching may point to such a realization, beyond concept, the vehicle itself is inevitably bound up in concept.

Words alone are unlikely to liberate a practitioner, they are simply touchstones or guideposts left by those who've gone before to help us gauge the progress of our experiential practice. And they do play an important role and have value. That is the point of the Beacon of Certainty. My point is that the conceptual mind is so pervasive and fundamental to our life experience that we as practitioners need to be extraordinarily vigilant and precise; yet effortlessly and playfully so in order to approach the non-conceptual in a meaningful way.

 

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

While I would agree that anything put down in words require a mental understanding, I would argue that it is impossible to truly understand the meaning of the Heart sutra without the realization of emptiness itself.  Emptiness is "beyond the mind", and can not be built up from a basis of mental understanding. Words are nothing but pointers, and a great danger when they become a descriptive basis for the conceptual mind to lock into a framework.

I agree, the realization of emptiness is experiential and while that realization may be supported or even stimulated for some by scripture, I think it is more closely linked to a combination of conceptual formulation, experiential practice, karma, and blessings.

 

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

To me, the very idea that the scripture can lead to a "true" mental understanding is the insidious part. 

I see it a bit differently. I feel that there are those who develop a very solid mental, I prefer the word conceptual, understanding of emptiness through the study of scripture. This mental understanding is legitimate in its own right but not equivalent to an experiential, non-conceptual realization of emptiness. For me that difference is not insidious, it's quite obvious. On the other hand, I would agree that there are many who don't see the difference. And pointing out such differences to them is generally unhelpful and frustrating to both parties. One must have a frame of reference to 'get it.'

 

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Also, with your example on spontaneous liberation, it is not the question itself that is problem, as that is very far downstream from any potential release.

The question is not the problem, it's more like the questioner is the problem.

 

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

 If something actually spontaneously releases, it simply drops and does not even arise, so there is nothing that could form the basis for your question of it's release in the first place.  

Spontaneous release is different than "does not even arise" in my experience.

Spontaneous release is when the mental activity arises, is seen for what it is, not interfered with, and incapable of disturbing the effortless restfulness of abiding in the nature of mind. Being unable to disturb, it simply arises, abides in awareness for as long as it needs, and then continues on its merry way to effortless dissolution. It's like a bubble rising from the sea floor to the surface and releasing into the sky. The oft used analogy among the Tibetans is that of snowflakes falling onto the surface of a lake or ocean. The snowflakes are unequivocally there but effortlessly dissolve without ever disturbing the surface of the water. The water takes no action to dissolve them. When resting in that level of meditation, you are correct, the question of release does not even arise. The question arises when the meditation is not at that level of stability and openness, which is more often the case for me in my practice. The analogy used for this level of practice is the sun melting frost. The frost is a bit more solid than flakes of snow, the sun (awareness) takes a modicum of time and energy (attention) to melt it, and yet the degree of energy expended is still relatively minor. There's a third analogy for a more coarse level of meditation but I can't recall it at the moment.  The point is that it's not so much whether the liberation is perfectly effortless or somewhat more effortful but that the one questioning is there at all, that is the insidious part for me. 

 

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

Your questioning (in my view), is actually a very positive thing in that you are subconsciously telling yourself that you have not really released it and bringing that awareness into your conscious mind.  It actually shows a deep perceptional capability that you realize there are still subconscious aspects hanging around of the underlying issues.

For sure there is a level at which such questioning is positive and valuable. Then there comes a time when even such questioning must be released and is, in and of itself, the very obstacle. This is a more subtle level of resting. The one who realizes 'there are still subconscious aspects hanging around' is the more insidious and problematic obstacle than the "underlying issues" he is identifying. Once that one (the practitioner-identity) is able to fully rest, the issues themselves are of no real consequence and will self-liberate in good time and without interference. At least that's the approach we take in my tradition.

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Hi Jeff,

 

One conceptual framework I understand things through is a Kabbalistic one. 

 

The three "parts" of "consciousness/God" as I understand...

 

Ain - "The Emptiness", the Primordial No-Thing-Ness ... The true nature of God is completely beyond the comprehension of mental, emotional, physical being - that God is neither "something" nor "nothing".  

 

Ain Soph - "The Infinite" - Yet from this primordial no-thingness, something arises.  This quality is infinite potential.

 

Ain Soph Or - "The Light" or "The Infinite Light" which manifests to us as Awareness.

 

I understand this "framework" as relates to my own consciousness... so "Ain soph" being the infinite potential of thoughts that could arise... "Ain Soph Or" is the awareness, and "Ain" is tracing thoughts back and finding no source. 

 

This appears to me as being "form is emptiness", because even though we do not find anything as we trace our thoughts back, there is still "something" there...

 

How does this compare to your idea of a blackboard? It sounds similar... Basically there is a principal (Ain or Emptiness) that is unable to be experienced, in which all things arise.

 

 

I know virtually nothing about Kaballah but your framework seems quite analogous to that of Bön Dzogchen, as I've been taught.

The inseparable triad of space (emptiness), awareness (light), and warmth (energy) are the foundation of our conceptualization of the direct experience of the nature of mind. Furthermore they are the basis for the expression of the fruition of practice through the embodiment of the three dimensions or kayas, eg. the living expression of Buddha nature. I've always wanted to study Kabbalah. Sadly, it is not very accessible in Jewish circles which is partly what led to my exploration of other forms of spirituality.

[Fa Xin]

47 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I know virtually nothing about Kaballah but your framework seems quite analogous to that of Bön Dzogchen, as I've been taught.

The inseparable triad of space (emptiness), awareness (light), and warmth (energy) are the foundation of our conceptualization of the direct experience of the nature of mind. Furthermore they are the basis for the expression of the fruition of practice through the embodiment of the three dimensions or kayas, eg. the living expression of Buddha nature. I've always wanted to study Kabbalah. Sadly, it is not very accessible in Jewish circles which is partly what led to my exploration of other forms of spirituality.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Thank you for the info... I also find it very interesting that energy is referred to as warmth. I like that. Curious if there's a difference between Dzogchen and "Bon" Dzogchen?  I'm familiar with Bon on the surface, but didn't know if there was more than one Dzogchen?

 

I've only studied some aspects of Kabbalah, as I find the waters get very deep and somewhat murky.  Most of my exposure has been through Christian teachers who blend some Jewish mysticism in. But Kabbalah's concepts are appealing to me, as they are very unique - I've not encountered such things as the Tree of Life mapping, or different levels of the soul before.  I've also found - somewhat to my surprise -  the concepts were easy for me to understand and assimilate.  Meanwhile, I see some conversations on here about AV or Kashmir Shaivism, and my eyes cross.    Isn't it odd how our minds prefer certain frameworks and concepts...

 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

 Pratyahara ( Sense Withdrawl )  is required and can be done in many ways by yogic technique how you turn the senses inwards and withdraw the life force into the central channel that was previously enlivening the ever extroverted senses by means of introversion is dependent upon your practice.

 

In Kriya Yoga we use a series of techniques that first take one from the outer world to the inner. Over time the practitioner can do this very swiftly within the first few moments of sitting even. 

 

Pratyahara / Sense withdraw becomes a very simple matter it is more getting a feeling for doing it than anything else. 

Excellent post. Thanks for sharing.

 

BTW, when I said pratyāhāra, I didn't mean to make it sound like it is difficult. For me, pratyāhāra started on its own when I was starting off in yoga practice, with a simultaneous study of Patanjali's yoga sutra. I know now that it was due to past life samskāras. It is as simple as letting the senses fall back inward. There is a similar taoist meditation too, where we turn the senses back into the lower dan tien (explained like this to me -- see the dan tien, taste the dan tien, feel the dan tien, hear the dan tien, smell the dan tien). Eventually it results in a deep samādhi, and a cessation of thought complete. 

 

Though we like to categorize these things, it is never a clear distinction between the stages, though there is a bit of a sequentiality, there are more overlaps. Between pratyāhāra, dhāranā and samādhi, though there is a chronology initially, they sort of blend into each other, ime.

 

When it comes to the senses, I like the Daoist adage  - "The five tastes dull the tongue, the five colors dull the eyes, the five sounds dull the ears and so on...". More we are caught up in pravritti (outer manifestation), the farther we go from nivritti (returning to the inner source). 

 

Even with the internal experiences, getting caught up in phenomena is a certain way to bondage of a higher kind. Therein lies the traps with Siddhis etc.

 

Of course, there are generic disclaimers meant for the general public, and another set of directions/guidances for adhikārīs (qualified individuals). 

5 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

 

The object of meditation in Kriya is the triple divine qualities a psychospiritual force. The triple divine qualities are also a byproduct of friction.  Friction with what?  1.The Astral body and the blockages or Samskaras within that system. The whole motion is one of reversing the process of having been born and taking human form in a way so that one comes to consciously realize their true nature. The short version of this is an often used and seldom understood phrase:  self realization,  but that is just the beginning,

 

The triple divine qualities are as follows and defined they are all astral in nature and non physical but the human nervous system registers pleasure in an attempt to translate them. They are an psychospiritual force and are of Shakti.

 

1.Divine vibration and pulsation can manifest as Pulsation, Vibration and Electrical like qualities. as with all that follow the goal is to seek the source of this psychospirittual force by going deep into it to its core.

 

2. Divine Sound is the inner sound one hears it has nothing to do with the normal sese of hearing and it is in fact arising from Divine vibration. This is how the true Om is felt and heard as well as bija and mantra true mantra not the vocalizations so many traditions adhere to or even the mental verbalization. True Mantra comes from Divine vibration and consciousness attuned in such a way that the vibration is discovered. 

 

3. Divine light is the most refined of the three and is from the most refined vibration.

 

Know that these things are only perceivable once a degree of sense withdraw into stillness and spaciousness are accomplished. It does not have to be complete or total sense withdraw   The reason is as follows.

 

These triple divine qualities all manifest from stillness and spaciousness. 

 

Once even a small degree of sense withdraw occurs these triple divine qualities begin to manifest it is by technique of Kriya Yoga of Hariharananda they are worked with and worked with differently in different levels of Kriya.

 

So if all you accomplish is sense withdraw without knowing what to do next and you start getting the triple divine qualities which are blissful and do feel pleasurable then you have hit a roadblock. You can hang out and experience them of course enjoy them and call it a day.

 

In Kriya however we do not stop there.

 

The triple divine qualities guided in the channels and the chakras take on a different dimension if inner life. In each and every practice the introversion becomes more and more profound then becomes the object of Meditation (Dharana)

 

The culmination of practice is the practice of Jyoti Mudra where if you look at my avatar you will see what advanced Kriyabans experience.

 

After this we sit in what is called the Paravastha of Kriya. This is an interesting thing  Kriya means action even though one is sitting    Kriya is different than allot of traditions in that once Samadhi is achieved we learn how to be in samadhi while engaging in the world.  We first learn this by the techniques of Kriya which at first make you think is this right? why would I dive deep only to have to perform a technique that requires stretching the body?  I don't want to do this it takes me out of my tranquility.

 

In time you become used to carrying the tranquility of samadhi with seeds in action and not be a slave to the cushion and this makes the practice highly practical and valuable.

 

After all the Kriyas are done we reside and abide in the fontanel and do NO Thing whatsoever at all only sit and calmly abide.

This is excellent and congruent with my intuitive understanding of the kriya process. The key is then to completely recognize one's identity (and after recognition, remain as such) as the pure awareness, and actions (or non-actions) spontaneously manifest as needed. This is sahaja samādhi. BTW, this is also the way of the advaita vedāntic tradition, as well as the daoist tradition I belong to. Nirvikalpa is the means by which the mind is dissolved. Becoming the samādhi is the what is needed. That is jivanamukti (liberation while embodied).

 

Of course, there are levels of understanding depending on the maturity of the practitioner. At one point, people think Nirvikalpa is all. Then we realize that there is something else too called sahaja state (or turiyāvasthā). 

5 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

 

In my case as the stillness settles over me like a blanket and the senses introvert once again the triple divine qualities shower down upon me from the crown and I feel divine vibration literally shower down upon the whole body in blissful waves over and over again and where the encounter resistance resonate and generate friction and then from the friction which is a byproduct of the divine vibration causing purification as it changes the vibratory frequency of the obstruction it encounters divine sound begins.

 

And before long divine light as well but most important of the three is divine vibration you must get that first otherwise there is no true purification going on just faithful beliefs and trust in tradition.

 

Once the triple divine qualities become strong the entire body vibrates with the frequency of OM and OM is most certainly heard so loudly at times that on may rightly wonder if it is waking up the whole neighborhood.

 

These triple divine qualities take charge and realign the astral body. In Kriyabans like myself whose alignment is sufficient a very curious and extremely odd physical manifestation occurs.

 

The Triple divine qualities having living consciousness and a decidedly female presence guide divine union and form the true Shiva Lingham via the method known as Kechari Mudra which if forced is a farce but when guided by Shakti is very real.

 

What happens is the tongue seeks to go upwards slide up along the back wall of the throat and penetrate in to the cave above.

 

When this happens duality within the being as male and female cease to exist. For you become the penetrator and the penetrated. The tongue becomes the lingham and the soft pallet and the womb above the Yoni.

 

 This to be clear happens in the physical it is not a metaphor.

 

To be equally clear it happens first in the astral which then the physical follows.

 

Many make the error of doing it physically which is mistake. One must only form the mudra when in deep practice and when the triple divine qualities make it happen you just get out of the way and watch as it happens on it's own it is quite wonderful.

 

Now when this rather odd union takes place we understand experientially that this is the true Yab Yum the true Shiva and Shakti taking place.

 

What follows is the circuit has been made complete from crown to base and the sushumna opens wide allowing the energy to pour in from a dilated crown and flood the central channel and rebound upwards and if allowed to continue growing ever stronger you will follow it with all your being to a point of absorption where nothing but this exists and your awareness will change and become like unto the expanded awareness of the cosmos and so much will flood into  you and will become known and enter the deepest samadhi state where your heart will stop and your lungs will have no reason to work.

 

This is dangerous.

 

It is dangerous because you may not come back.  This happened to Lahiri Mahasay the founder of Kriya Yoga I will tell this story at the end of this post.

 

It is dangerous because if you do come back as I have you will be reluctant and resistant to leave the peace and serenity beyond measure for this human life. Then you will have to learn how to integrate being here when you already know beyond a shadow of a doubt the other is better beyond words yet you need to be here for the experience of life that you took incarnation for in the first place so you dare not tempt this.

 

Once a person has had Nirvakalpa Samadhi  the feel for how it is done and the avenue to take for it known it is able to be avoided in favor of less dangerous absorption.

 

The way of opening oneself to be a vessel for the soul to fill with all its power through the crown chakra is a path to Mahasamadhi.

 

In order to avoid this as it is an extremely high state of energy required to open the seal and enter the casual realm one simply does not allow the dilation of the crown chakra to become so wide open nor focus so much on what the energy is doing until the mind is completely absorbed.

 

After this occurred more than once I learned a great many things many things were taught to me and not by people and not by words but by the living force behind the triple divine qualities.

 

While seated one day after the practices were completed and abiding in the crown chakra and sense introversion began the triple divine qualities made Kechari Mudra occur and then even greater energies came in and aligned my channels and dilated Sushumna  at this point I am completely introverted unaware of any surroundings  but this time the energy took on a different behavior.

 

I was shown channels and pathways intuitively not visually. And watched as a decidedly female presence shaped and guided the energy of divine vibration into these channels.

 

For some reason the energy entered the penis and caused a throbbing erection which I had no interest in doing anything about but was fascinated this could occur and continued watching what the energy did.  I learned that even though taught that the pathways start at the crown chakra and end in Muladhara the base chakra rear and front Kshetram ( Trigger Points) being the Coccyx and Perineum respectively  that it was not an entirely complete teaching that the patch actual ends at the tip of the glans where the Jewel Tip Chakra is located.

 

So here I was sitting like a passenger watching experiencing feeling all of this going on completely absorbed in the inner world and divorced from the physical world going on outside my closed cell of a room.

 

My entire central channel was full of divine vibration from Crown to Jewel Tip Chakra note I am not saying physical body. Astral body.

 

Now with the astral system charged up and enduring blissful ecstatic orgasmic sensation to the point of not enjoyment but enduring yet not painful more like to the threshold of ones ability to do so and remain aware a curious thing happened.

 

She being the energy guided herself and gathered at a point below the navel and this changed the vibration in the system into a lower throbbing type of orgasmic feeling here the energy was pulled and compressed and grew hot.

 

Then I felt it rise like a flame up the central channel and as it did I became aware the physical body was growing hot like a furnace and huge gouts of sweat giant drops were streaming off of the skin.

 

Yet the internal focus persisted and I watches the body with some concern and about this time realized I had not been breathing for quite some time. 

 

It is a curious delima when you realize you do not know if you are on the out breathe nor the in breathe and do not know where to take it back up from either exhalation or inhalation.

 

So I exhaled and realized there was not much there upon inhalation I realized how hot the body was as it felt as if I were inhaling hot air from an oven whose door had been opened.

 

This pretty much ended this session as I feared doing damage to the body as the heat was ever building. There I was left sitting with an erection that was throbbing like crazy and sweat everywhere soaking wet. 

 

So after doing some Kriya Mahamudra to realign the energy in the body I took up my cushion again with this persistent erection and sat until I felt cool inside, Kechari continued to form and I would bring the tongue back down as it constantly seeks the pituitary gland above the Sphenoid Sinus encased in the sella turcica bone shell,  this structure can be felt with the tip of the tongue. Here there is an energetic connection. and there is a spongy soft pocket here where the tongue rest naturally.

 

After some time everything calmed down and I went about my business a bit perplexed. 

 

Shortly thereafter and many sessions many things were shown to me including the full practice of Tummo. 

 

Tummo eventually led to consort practice where the heretofore only felt female presence took on astral shape and form and then the things of the statue makers became fulfilled as surly as if a flesh and blood woman had mounted me.

 

I now understood the pictures and the statues were depicting a reality not an imagining and not a physical joining which would be a mockery of the actual experience which is more real.

 

This female essence taken form joined and taught me how and where to move the energies between us to cause the bindu to melt and many more things. 

 

 At about this time I contacted Jeff and asked him if he had any idea what this was that was going on and he told me to look into the 6 yogas of Naropa and see if their were similarities.

 

Needless to say I was astounded.  Later i discovered other books which described things in greater detail and aligned with my experiences.

 

Over time between this and Kriya great transformations took place and over-swept my physical life changing everything there as well. In time the Divine Mother,  Consort, Shakti,  Kali however you will call her gifted me with my lady a avatar of the divine female principle if ever there was one.

 

To say Tantra,  Tummo and True consort practice is trans-formative is as understated of an understatement that could possibly be made. People should really be careful with these practice you may get one whole hell of allot more changes than you can possibly imagine.  I know I sure did and I watched peoples Karma accelerate in my presence at an astounding rate.

 

Something I want to bring out is all of this is Divine energy from the Divine Mother and she most certainly transforms you by it. To understand what I am saying you must understand like this.

 

If I take a tuning fork and tap it it begins vibrating if I place another tuning fork next to it it will pick up the vibration of the first. It is like that.

 

The pleasure component is inescapable but not the goal it is the part that holds mind to single pointed absorption like nothing else can.

 

Tummo and consort practice are not in the category of complete absorption and samadhi. They are also outside or the realm of Patanjalis Yoga Sutras and remind me of Tantric sorcery.  I think it could be very dangerous for someone to tamper with the divine female principle least their intentions are pure and devoted.

 

To practice tummo effectively however a background in the yoga that leads to the triple divine qualities is essential as I have described.

 

Now for the Story of Lahiri Baba as told to me by his Great Grandson Shibendu Lahiri in private.

 

Shibendu told me with great respect and solemnity he reserves for his Great Grandfather above all others that Lahiri Mahasaya was sitting in Nirvikalpa Samadhi the state of no heart beat and not breathing as was his custom and he knew this was going to be a prolonged practice and instructed his wife not to move his body no matter what she witnessed or how long it took. 

 

For some reason that remains a mystery she did not remember and upon finding her husband in that state planned his funeral and carried it out.

 

It is not known why she did this and only remembered his instructions after the fact.

 

I speculate that Lahiri Baba had his reasons and once in Nirvakalpa Samadhi decided not to return or could not find his way back which I do know is a risk and the body perished.

I truly appreciate the insights into Kriya Yoga. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Hi Steve,

 

Thank you for the info... I also find it very interesting that energy is referred to as warmth. I like that. Curious if there's a difference between Dzogchen and "Bon" Dzogchen?  I'm familiar with Bon on the surface, but didn't know if there was more than one Dzogchen?

 

 

I've only studied and practiced with the Bön lineages (there are 3 Bön Dzogchen lineages - A Tri, Drakpa Korsum, and Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud). The Buddhist Dzogchen lineages come through the Nyingma tradition. One important difference is that the Bön Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud is a tradition that has been passed down master to student without interruption dating back to times of antiquity. The teachings were initially passed from mind to mind, then orally, then were written down for the first time around the time of the master, Tapihritsa, around the 7th century. Tapihritsa is therefore extremely important and is the master with whom guru yoga is practiced by Bönpos, whereas the Nyingmapas practice with guru yoga with Padmasambhava. The entire Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud lineage can be studied in a wonderful book which features pith instructions from 24 consecutive masters said to have achieved the rainbow body - https://ligmincha.org/product/masters-of-the-zhang-zhung-nyengyud/.

 

All other lineages have had their transmission interrupted and rediscovered as terma. The iconography and histories also differ between Bön and Buddhist traditions although they do share a few common figures. The basic practices are otherwise quite similar.

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, steve said:

...

 

The question is not the problem, it's more like the questioner is the problem.

 

To me their is no real separation between questioner and question. There can be no question without a questioner.

 

12 hours ago, steve said:

 

Spontaneous release is different than "does not even arise" in my experience.

Spontaneous release is when the mental activity arises, is seen for what it is, not interfered with, and incapable of disturbing the effortless restfulness of abiding in the nature of mind. Being unable to disturb, it simply arises, abides in awareness for as long as it needs, and then continues on its merry way to effortless dissolution. It's like a bubble rising from the sea floor to the surface and releasing into the sky. The oft used analogy among the Tibetans is that of snowflakes falling onto the surface of a lake or ocean. The snowflakes are unequivocally there but effortlessly dissolve without ever disturbing the surface of the water. The water takes no action to dissolve them. When resting in that level of meditation, you are correct, the question of release does not even arise. The question arises when the meditation is not at that level of stability and openness, which is more often the case for me in my practice. The analogy used for this level of practice is the sun melting frost. The frost is a bit more solid than flakes of snow, the sun (awareness) takes a modicum of time and energy (attention) to melt it, and yet the degree of energy expended is still relatively minor. There's a third analogy for a more coarse level of meditation but I can't recall it at the moment.  The point is that it's not so much whether the liberation is perfectly effortless or somewhat more effortful but that the one questioning is there at all, that is the insidious part for me. 

 

Maybe it is a question of terms, as you seem to say that at a deep or clear enough level of meditation, the question of release does not even arise.  But, my point is that there is no real difference between such a deep level of meditation and normal daily life. Such perceived differences are an artificial separation in mind.  Effectively the difference between conscious and subconscious aspects of mind.  Hence, when as you say things “bubble up”, but do not disturb and then drift away, that can simply be... Bubbled up from your subconscious and dropped back down, with no actual underlying clarity.  Like a giant iceberg with the bulk of the issue/fear below the water line of conscious awareness. 

 

12 hours ago, steve said:

 

For sure there is a level at which such questioning is positive and valuable. Then there comes a time when even such questioning must be released and is, in and of itself, the very obstacle. This is a more subtle level of resting. The one who realizes 'there are still subconscious aspects hanging around' is the more insidious and problematic obstacle than the "underlying issues" he is identifying. Once that one (the practitioner-identity) is able to fully rest, the issues themselves are of no real consequence and will self-liberate in good time and without interference. At least that's the approach we take in my tradition.

 

This last point is probably our biggest difference of view. My tradition/view more that one accepts it all. The “you” is everything. All of everything.  There is no separation, but “clarity” is the key.  And you only really know that it is “integrated” when it does not bubble up.

 

In tradition terms, it would be like adding “Being Siva” from Kashmir Shaivism to your Bon tradition/view.

[Pilgrim]

On 6/20/2019 at 7:45 PM, Jeff said:

The blackboard is an analogy and not meant as a particular type of consciousness

In this instance while an analogy to be certain it is also being used to describe a function of being or in my way of thinking a storage array on a server.

 

You have a storage medium a hard drive for simplicities sake. What ever is written to the hard drive remains in some form. When you delete something the area on the drive containing the data you desire to delete gets marked with an omicron symbol. This in term tells the operating system this are is available to be overwritten yet the data is still whole and present yet hidden from the end user.

 

Over time the data gets overwritten and more difficult to recover even with forensic tools.

 

This is why when we decommission servers in the industry we go beyond Even DOD level government level wiping performing writes overwriting all the sectors in a drive multiple times with randomization. 

 

So the chalk board board which is all people knew makes a good analogy as most of us went to school and were exposed to the chalk board.

 

The chalk board also explains a functioning of a real portion of our spiritual anatomy.

 

In this case presented by Ilumarian the data is the karmic traces the substantive media the traces reside upon are not physical as even the traces are not physical but are indeed the chalkboard of her explanation and the hard drive of my explanation.

 

Did you know even with wiping a drive you can still recover data with an electron microscope?  Talk about hard to get rid of whew! 

 

Furthermore since we are dealing with non physical reality of our very being it does go to all is consciousness even the parts we are unaware of because like the storage array on a server the office worker has no need to be aware of what is going on with it only that it functions.

 

This is indeed a level of consciousness and as we all know in order to access different levels we must set our tuning fork to the same harmonic and then our ability to be aware in and if this state of consciousness is achieved.

 

The purpose of what is shared in Khandro is to recognize this and upon recognizing it realizing that there is only one way to get rid of the karmic traces.

 

As long as a server operating system exists, as long as the drive exists the traces and the data are present in one form or another fractured marked for deletion buried under layers and layers of jibberish still it persists.

 

We can then guess we’ll what happens if I take a torch and melt the storage medium into slag.  Well physically this will work but what is discussed here is not so easily transmuted.

 

In fact transmutation will not work. This is why it is said Tantra and sutra leave traces.

 

It is only when the I is no longer that the chalkboard and the Hard drive vanish as there is nothing left to record upon.

 

This is also why purification is an endless pointless ritual. It only serves to get one behind I and in Kriya this happens in degrees.

 

I for example am far from being without what we call in Kriya the Godown Of thoughts which is exactly the same as has been expressed here.

 

Are there other chalkboard analogies sure let’s explore them all for as long as any speaks as an authority they are not. This has been my interpretation thank you for viewing 🙏🏻

Edited June 22, 2019 by Pilgrim

[Kar3n]

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that merely erasing the chalkboard or data from a hard drive "cures" or erases all. 

 

How productive is it to go back after erasing or overwriting with forensics or a microscope, even metaphorically, to see if it's still there? If you're looking for something you will surely find what you're looking for and the erasing and overwriting process starts anew.

 

Cultivation (erasing and overwriting) in every form of practice is an endless, continual process.

[Pilgrim]

10 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that merely erasing the chalkboard or data from a hard drive "cures" or erases all. 

 

How productive is it to go back after erasing or overwriting with forensics or a microscope, even metaphorically, to see if it's still there? If you're looking for something you will surely find what you're looking for and the erasing and overwriting process starts anew.

 

Cultivation (erasing and overwriting) in every form of practice is an endless, continual process.

Yes and pointless unless one starts making the leaps and starts getting it.

 

We do this in Kriya by entering Samadhi states where direct realization and awareness happens.

 

Not all at once as some might say but to our individual capacity and then have to grow into it.

[Pilgrim]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Excellent post. Thanks for sharing.

 

BTW, when I said pratyāhāra, I didn't mean to make it sound like it is difficult. For me, pratyāhāra started on its own when I was starting off in yoga practice, with a simultaneous study of Patanjali's yoga sutra. I know now that it was due to past life samskāras. It is as simple as letting the senses fall back inward. There is a similar taoist meditation too, where we turn the senses back into the lower dan tien (explained like this to me -- see the dan tien, taste the dan tien, feel the dan tien, hear the dan tien, smell the dan tien). Eventually it results in a deep samādhi, and a cessation of thought complete. 

 

Though we like to categorize these things, it is never a clear distinction between the stages, though there is a bit of a sequentiality, there are more overlaps. Between pratyāhāra, dhāranā and samādhi, though there is a chronology initially, they sort of blend into each other, ime.

 

When it comes to the senses, I like the Daoist adage  - "The five tastes dull the tongue, the five colors dull the eyes, the five sounds dull the ears and so on...". More we are caught up in pravritti (outer manifestation), the farther we go from nivritti (returning to the inner source). 

 

Even with the internal experiences, getting caught up in phenomena is a certain way to bondage of a higher kind. Therein lies the traps with Siddhis etc.

 

Of course, there are generic disclaimers meant for the general public, and another set of directions/guidances for adhikārīs (qualified individuals). 

This is excellent and congruent with my intuitive understanding of the kriya process. The key is then to completely recognize one's identity (and after recognition, remain as such) as the pure awareness, and actions (or non-actions) spontaneously manifest as needed. This is sahaja samādhi. BTW, this is also the way of the advaita vedāntic tradition, as well as the daoist tradition I belong to. Nirvikalpa is the means by which the mind is dissolved. Becoming the samādhi is the what is needed. That is jivanamukti (liberation while embodied).

 

Of course, there are levels of understanding depending on the maturity of the practitioner. At one point, people think Nirvikalpa is all. Then we realize that there is something else too called sahaja state (or turiyāvasthā). 

I truly appreciate the insights into Kriya Yoga. 

You are welcome for me sharing is the best way to explain.

 

You are quite right about sequencing and how it all blends. 

 

I owe you  an apology at first I thought you did not get these thing but now I see from your experiential replies you most certainly do.

 

I apologize for that.

 

In fact I see we are more like brothers in comprehension of these matters and appreciate having someone to discuss with.

 

Thank you very much.

 

  Becoming the Samadhi is what is needed 😁 very well said. 

 

Fantastic replies from you some of the best ever from anyone!

[Pilgrim]

On 6/20/2019 at 9:07 PM, Apech said:

 

I think the Kunzhi Namshe is comparable but different to the Cittamatra alaya-vijnana (storehouse consciousness) which holds the seed of karmic actions - and is the basis of rebirth and memory of course.

 

If instead of blackboard and chalk you were to say Mind and content (thought, feeling, perception) then you would also be able to say that not only the content is empty (of self) but also the Mind is empty.  It's not that the blackboard is empty and the chalk exists (even if temporarily) - which would make the blackboard like the 'void' - empty of form but full of creative potential - the plenum - but Buddhism would say that the arising and ceasing of content is just movement in the natural state and is not other than the natural state, in the non-dual realisation the difference between the experiencer and the experience, subject / object is seen to be a mistake.

 

The other confusing notion is of the primordial mind/state as if this is something beyond or transcending - or even worse some prior state of being which was before we became confused by our dualistic perceptions.  So we get the idea that there is something pure and unsullied which is different to our natural mind.  Thinking like this leads to abstraction - an abstract absolute pure and clean - which is currently contaminated.  And while people talk this way - actually the natural state permanently and eternally encompasses all states without becoming contaminated.  Because there is no contamination at all.

 

Having said this in most systems you work in your confusion.  So for instance in yoga 'yogas citti vritti nirodha' where yoga which means union with your true nature involves nirodha (cessation, evaporation) of vritti (disturbances) in citta (mind).  So for the yogi to achieve the stillness with which comes samadhi the the thoughts and emotions and so on are allowed to evaporate back to being citta (self aware energy) itself.  Most people say this is about stilling the mind, becoming calm but its more precise than that.  It is saying if you observe the vritti they will, because they are nothing other than fluctuations in citta, self liberate to the natural state.  And while there is effort involved in getting yourself to study and meditate this liberation is spontaneous and effortless.

 

 

Damn well said bravo sir 👏🏼

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Pilgrim said:

In this instance while an analogy to be certain it is also being used to describe a function of being or in my way of thinking a storage array on a server.

 

You have a storage medium a hard drive for simplicities sake. What ever is written to the hard drive remains in some form. When you delete something the area on the drive containing the data you desire to delete gets marked with an omicron symbol. This in term tells the operating system this are is available to be overwritten yet the data is still whole and present yet hidden from the end user.

 

Over time the data gets overwritten and more difficult to recover even with forensic tools.

 

This is why when we decommission servers in the industry we go beyond Even DOD level government level wiping performing writes overwriting all the sectors in a drive multiple times with randomization. 

 

So the chalk board board which is all people knew makes a good analogy as most of us went to school and were exposed to the chalk board.

 

The chalk board also explains a functioning of a real portion of our spiritual anatomy.

 

In this case presented by Ilumarian the data is the karmic traces the substantive media the traces reside upon are not physical as even the traces are not physical but are indeed the chalkboard of her explanation and the hard drive of my explanation.

 

Did you know even with wiping a drive you can still recover data with an electron microscope?  Talk about hard to get rid of whew! 

 

Furthermore since we are dealing with non physical reality of our very being it does go to all is consciousness even the parts we are unaware of because like the storage array on a server the office worker has no need to be aware of what is going on with it only that it functions.

 

This is indeed a level of consciousness and as we all know in order to access different levels we must set our tuning fork to the same harmonic and then our ability to be aware in and if this state of consciousness is achieved.

 

The purpose of what is shared in Khandro is to recognize this and upon recognizing it realizing that there is only one way to get rid of the karmic traces.

 

As long as a server operating system exists, as long as the drive exists the traces and the data are present in one form or another fractured marked for deletion buried under layers and layers of jibberish still it persists.

 

We can then guess we’ll what happens if I take a torch and melt the storage medium into slag.  Well physically this will work but what is discussed here is not so easily transmuted.

 

In fact transmutation will not work. This is why it is said Tantra and sutra leave traces.

 

It is only when the I is no longer that the chalkboard and the Hard drive vanish as there is nothing left to record upon.

 

This is also why purification is an endless pointless ritual. It only serves to get one behind I and in Kriya this happens in degrees.

 

I for example am far from being without what we call in Kriya the Godown Of thoughts which is exactly the same as has been expressed here.

 

Are there other chalkboard analogies sure let’s explore them all for as long as any speaks as an authority they are not. This has been my interpretation thank you for viewing 🙏🏻

 

I understand what you are saying, but we seem to be talking about different things. You are the server, you are the operating system, you are the entire environment in which you access the server or the operating system.  They are not separate things that you torch into slag.  It is not about overwriting some store or trying to erase it, as all of that is of the (universal) mind.  It is more like a quantum shift to “being”. Being all of it. Integrating it.  The data is not destroyed and is still all accessible, but there is no need or desire. It is more like the energy structures (or data processing) that keep the disk focused on certain data aspects is freed up. The TTC describes it well when taking about an immortal/sage.

 

If one is “being in the moment”, there is no worrying about issues and fears, there is no such thing as a separate mental state where you are in meditation or not. One is all of it.

[Pilgrim]

23 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This raises an interesting question. 

 

With a tantric practice - let’s say working with a higher being.... Would you say such matters of clearing are left to the being you’re working with?

 

In my own practice, let’s say I am working with Kali ... I just kind of focus on her and let her do everything.  Yes there’s a realization that we merge at some point and the dividing lines blur... but the “doing” is given up and given to her. I find it liberating and helpful when dealing with the sort of thoughts that Steve mentions. 

 

So while I agree here that noticing there is still stuff to be cleared is a good thing.... I mean more the mindset that wants to apply effort in clearing. 

In my experience the one who has something to offer and aid you with comes to you when you are ready.

 

She teaches directly  and you learn directly then you both reach the level you are capable of and then you grow into it.

 

While you are growing into it your teacher leaves you so you can.

[Starjumper]

On 6/17/2019 at 2:05 PM, Jeff said:

The pleasure orientation is very important, very powerful, and very basic. If you are not pleasure-oriented, you can’t understand tantra. You have to be pleasure-oriented, because otherwise you are pain- and misery-oriented. But this is not a psychological trick of convincing yourself through positive thinking. It is an obvious, reasonable, and real thing. When you treat yourself well, you feel good. When you feel good, you dress yourself in good clothes and adorn yourself with beautiful ornaments. It is a very natural and basic way of relating to oneself.
 

The main qualities of tantra that come out here are basic trust and basic elegance. Elegance here means appreciating things as they are. Things as you are and things as they are. There is a sense of delight and of fearlessness. You are not fearful of dark corners. If there are any dark, mysterious corners, black and confusing, you override them with your glory, your sense of beauty, your sense of cleanness, your feeling of being regal. Because you can override fearfulness in this way, tantra is known as the king of all the yanas. You take an attitude of having perfectly complete and very rich basic sanity.

 

~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 

 

Thoughts?

 

This is an obvious truth concerning the ability to cultivate spiritual growth.

[Pilgrim]

21 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

This framework is different that what I am describing and also different than the Dzogchen concept of emptiness.  This is much more like the AV model with Brahman as the "base" and Atman (as the individual framework) as the limiter. This view would be like my old discussions with Dwai where the One = Tao.

 

The part of the Heart sutra that is often misunderstood is people think it is only "Form = Emptiness" and that is the same as Neti-Neti or everything drops to Void.  But, it is also, Emptiness = Form, or everything exists (or appears out of) emptiness.  The true magic of buddha's emptiness is that it is both of these at the same time, and that is the part that is "beyond" mind.

 

My personal view would say that Buddha should have described an additional aspect and that is what I call the "primordial" to differentiate it a little.  Like I have said before, my view would be more the integration or blend of KS and Dzogchen. 

Just catching up li post by post and really do not want to go searching old posts for anything.

 

May I ask you do me a favor and lay out your view in a linear fashion?  I for one think it would be helpful and help further conversation in this thread.

 

For example I remember years ago you had a system of 1 to 14 which was good.

 

For that matter would you consider starting a PPD so you retain control and spell out your self founded tradition? 

 

Just to be clear to others Self Founded is not meant to be derogatory lineages have to start somewhere do they not?

Edited June 22, 2019 by Pilgrim