Electric Cars : A Myth ?

[escott]

8 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Personally I wish they would have continued with fuel  cell technologies 

 

I had a friend who worked for an energy research firm in Colorado years ago. He said hydrogen fuel cells were a bad idea. It required more energy to produce them than what you got back out. At the last company I worked at I worked in the cubicle next to a guy who was the president of a Siemens fuel cell division. After that failed he wasn't a president anymore at a large company, he sat in a cubicle next to me at a small company.

Edited July 5, 2019 by escott

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, escott said:

I had a friend who worked for an energy research firm in Colorado years ago. He said hydrogen fuel cells were a bad idea.

 

 

Interesting, 

 

One should note the japanese and koreans dont seem to share this feeling...Toyota , nissan was the first to come out with the puris and other electric vec....would be good to know the technical reasons for someone feeling it was a bad idea. 

[windwalker]

 

A 20-year BMW journey into hydrogen technology will finally see a series production car in 2025 
Image: BMW

A 20-year BMW journey into hydrogen technology will finally see a series production car in 2025.

The German premium carmaker’s chief engineer, Klaus Frölich, has confirmed that its multigenerational hydrogen development programme would have a production car available in six years.

[windwalker]

Quote

There was even talk that the third generation of the i brand would be a hydrogen fuel cell that was due into production two years ago.

 

They’ve been beaten to the punch by Mercedes-Benz with its GLC F-Cell, and also Toyota, Honda and even Hyundai. Audi has also dabbled heavily in fuel-cell technology, having production-ready A7 h-trons tested by journalists at the Los Angeles motor show two years ago.

 

“In the early '20s there will be a small series of X5 hydrogen cars and by 2025 there will be a mass producible hydrogen car available, with Toyota,” Frölich said.

“They (Toyota) make the standard performance stack and we make the high performance stack.”

 

https://www.timeslive.co.za/motoring/news/2019-07-04-bmw-and-toyota-partnering-up-to-build-fuel-cell-car/

[escott]

If anything, I think we'll see more cars running on propane or compressed natural gas before we see fuel cells successfully used. A lot of city buses and UPS trucks already do this. I drive a Ford F150 with a V8 5.0 that is made to be easily converted to run on propane or compressed natural gas.

[windwalker]

Just now, escott said:

If anything, I think we'll see more cars running on propane or compressed natural gas before we see fuel cells successfully used. A lot of city buses and UPS trucks already do this. I drive a Ford F150 with a V8 5.0 that is made to be easily converted to run on propane or compressed natural gas.

 

 

In Korea this is also very big LPG, also very clean but does not as I understand it have 

the same energy out put as gasoline ,

 

In their gas stations they have LPG  stations for fill ups...

[Spotless]

Natural Gas does not have the same punch as gas but a curious thing - cars and trucks converted to Natural Gas / LPG last way longer - it is typical to get over 200k  and closer to 300k on many light to heavy trucks and vans.

 

The fuel cell idea took legs in large part because of the idea of a fueling station - (think easily taxed in a similar fashion to the way we do it now).

Governors liked the idea. 

 

Honda or Toyota (not sure which) mentioned something that was a good insider bit of info - that they were still going to concentrate on the hybrid models rather than all electric with the reason being that the cars would come at a more affordable price since the increasingly high cost of rare-earth battery technology was greatly reduced in hybrids and range was easily a non-issue.

 

Another thing not mentioned so far unless I overlooked something is that from the Electric perspective power is from centralized power plants that are monitored with relative ease - lets just say 200k electric cars per power plant (I have no idea if this is high or low) charging mostly at night which is the case and to be assumed. Thats One combustion location vs 200k individual moving combustion locations.

 

Money wasted on countless things such as smog testing, engine maintenance, oil changes - all sorts of things that will go by the way side or be greatly reduced. 

 

 

[Dynasty]

42 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Money wasted on countless things such as smog testing, engine maintenance, oil changes - all sorts of things that will go by the way side or be greatly reduced. 

 

Only when battery tech reaches a certain point. For at least the past 30 years the holy grail of a battery has just been around the corner.

 

And those jobs won't go away, per se, they will be transferred over into the battery/electric car industry. Batteries will be re-built. Electric motors will need re-built. The government bureaucrats will figure out how and why electric cars will need annual testing. 

 

[Spotless]

16 minutes ago, Dynasty said:

 

Only when battery tech reaches a certain point. For at least the past 30 years the holy grail of a battery has just been around the corner.

 

And those jobs won't go away, per se, they will be transferred over into the battery/electric car industry. Batteries will be re-built. Electric motors will need re-built. The government bureaucrats will figure out how and why electric cars will need annual testing. 

 

I both agree and disagree - One of the Holy Grails was to get to critical mass in terms of numbers and interest - we are there in spades.

 

Some jobs will be transferred - but the numbers will not transfer without large drops in needed skills and labor.

 

Contrary to popular anti government everything - most of the people thinking up this stuff do not do so for no reason - its not just to keep their government jobs - that is more of a military thing.

 

Smog testing had/has a real reason for existing - and WOW have they ever had a positive effect - in California they entirely changed all sorts of things and the USA is the leading exporter and leader world wide in emission controls and monitoring software and equipment. Wherever large cities exist pollution control is highly valued - in rural areas no tolerance for any sort of government oversight is highly valued - and of course rural areas tend to be the areas of highest welfare recipients. 

 

18 out of 20 Welfare States in the USA are long time Red States.

[Dynasty]

7 minutes ago, Spotless said:

18 out of 20 Welfare States in the USA are long time Red States.

 

And what the fuck does that have to do with electric cars?

 

And isn't the bubonic plague/typhus/rat infestations now in Los Angelas, a deep blue area in a deep blue state? 

 

Because in the infinite wisdom of banning drinking straws and plastic bags, but give out needles for heroine junkies/homeless people are now shitting all over the streets whereas when plastic bags were plentiful they could at least put their shit in a bag.  

 

California is also a leading exporter of idiots posting crap on the internet. 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Dynasty

[Spotless]

3 minutes ago, Dynasty said:

 

And what the fuck does that have to do with electric cars?

Republicans have at almost all levels done everything to prevent nearly anything sensible regarding energy, environment and climate.

 

They have not in any way been supportive of Electric Cars - they have been supportive of corn gas when it suited their regional constituents regardless of the science - fracking - needless pipelines and coal. The most support has been and continues to be those who do not hate government and group participation in things other than military.

 

And apparently it hit a cord with you - I wonder why?

 

[Dynasty]

Just now, Spotless said:

And apparently it hit a cord with you - I wonder why?

 

I'm not a republican. 

 

And for your information, the EPA was created under Richard Nixon. A republican. 

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, Dynasty said:

 

I'm not a republican. 

 

And for your information, the EPA was created under Richard Nixon. A republican. 

Fully aware of that fact - "Republicans have at almost all levels done everything to prevent nearly anything sensible regarding energy, environment and climate".

 

One of several felon presidents - Republicans like Nixon rarely display any interest in a good and strong EPA and if you were to assume things - you would assume Democrats had invented the EPA and the Endangered Species Act - neither of which is true.

 

But Democrats certainly are the champions of both even if they are not the original writers - and remember - they had their own kids on the ground - and marchers in the streets - an EPA and an Endanger Species Act was coming to town one way or another.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Spotless

[windwalker]

wow,,,ok  

 

 

Thought it was about tech  ect...guess not...

 

carry on 

 

later  

Edited July 5, 2019 by windwalker

[Dynasty]

Okay dude. Calm down. Take a xanax or a valium or something. 

 

I'll acquiesce to you. All things good and holy originate from CA and Democrats. And I mean all things. The aids epidemic started in CA, and the dems are the party of the KKK. 

 

In other news, the 2021 Toyota Tundra full size truck is reportedly supposed to be a hybrid, have 450 horsepower and get 30 mpg. This will join the 2021 F-150 hybrid. Mileage estimates have not yet been released. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Dynasty
spelling

[Pilgrim]

22 hours ago, Spotless said:

It is interesting - the Prius has one of the highest if not the highest owner satisfaction levels in automotive history.

 

For years it held the title of best resale value.

 

I’ve never heard of shoddy anything on a relatively recent Honda or Toyota.

 

I have a Honda Insight and enjoy it - and the fact that nothing ever seems to go wrong with it - our BMW dropped off a cliff in value and cost a small fortune in repairs each year - not one Mercedes or BMW is in the top 20 in reliability - all the top ten are Honda and Toyota and one or two Fords.

 

Everyone can have a lemon and certainly some cars/trucks don’t fit a life style.

 

I enjoy my Jeep Diesel - But the Insight is lowered and has stiff springs - love it in the turns (though it’s a pig).

 

I’ve been looking at a Prius - more concerned about the electromagnetic’s and definitely not workmanship. 

 

Wife is looking at Tesla - they are produced only 30 minutes away from us.

FYI I am a former Mercedes Technician.  I owned Toyota's for years some of my Favorites being the Celicas from the mid to late 80's they were excellent vehicles in every way.

 

As a former owner of a Prius I must caution you against the purchase. I purchased a 2008 Model Toyota corolla brand new it was a Lemon. Had to have Cams replaced in under 7,000 miles and that was only one of the many issues with that car.

 

The dealership and I went round and round on that and I was taking them to court over it but we settled on me receiving full compensation for the Lemon and taking the over $12,000.00 in Equity I had in the vehicle as a result of a substantial down payment and put it into the more expensive 2010 model Prius.

 

At first I was happy with the vehicle but after a few 4 hour trips across state I was convinced age was catching up with me or something because I was so tired after the trips.  When I traded it in it only had 16000 miles on it and was fully paid off. 

 

Within 16,000.00 miles not only did the batteries degrade quite a bit but the suspension and the strut towers were making all kinds of noises. Really not what I experienced with the earlier bullet proof Toyotas.

 

The ride is hard and you are low to the ground and feel every bump in the road. Just would hate to see you buy what I experienced. 

 

While I have no experience with Tesla if you can afford it, that would be the way I would go after my experiences with later model Toyotas and the prius in particular. 

 

If you service your own vehicles it is also a real bitch to change the oil  without a lift  you have to jack them up higher than what is safe crawl under them unfasten a belly pan made of plastic swing it out of the way and then the oil filter is like on a Mercedes just a shell with a wick and an O-Ring requires 10 FT Lbs of pressure only when tightening and take a specialty tool. If you overtighten expect a leak.

 

This is not the kind of vehicle I would trust to just any oil shop to change the oil either as it can appear to be turned off and suddenly the engine can start. Lowest rookie techs always get the oil changes, senior techs avoid them. Not a great combo.

 

Honda however as far as I know still is the premium Japanese Manufacturer and in my opinion having worked on many of them over the years in my Non Mercedes role they are very well engineered, true over the years they have made some major gaffs with timing belts and interference engines but I think most of that has passed by now.

[Spotless]

33 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

FYI I am a former Mercedes Technician.  I owned Toyota's for years some of my Favorites being the Celicas from the mid to late 80's they were excellent vehicles in every way.

 

As a former owner of a Prius I must caution you against the purchase. I purchased a 2008 Model Toyota corolla brand new it was a Lemon. Had to have Cams replaced in under 7,000 miles and that was only one of the many issues with that car.

 

The dealership and I went round and round on that and I was taking them to court over it but we settled on me receiving full compensation for the Lemon and taking the over $12,000.00 in Equity I had in the vehicle as a result of a substantial down payment and put it into the more expensive 2010 model Prius.

 

At first I was happy with the vehicle but after a few 4 hour trips across state I was convinced age was catching up with me or something because I was so tired after the trips.  When I traded it in it only had 16000 miles on it and was fully paid off. 

 

Within 16,000.00 miles not only did the batteries degrade quite a bit but the suspension and the strut towers were making all kinds of noises. Really not what I experienced with the earlier bullet proof Toyotas.

 

The ride is hard and you are low to the ground and feel every bump in the road. Just would hate to see you buy what I experienced. 

 

While I have no experience with Tesla if you can afford it, that would be the way I would go after my experiences with later model Toyotas and the prius in particular. 

 

If you service your own vehicles it is also a real bitch to change the oil  without a lift  you have to jack them up higher than what is safe crawl under them unfasten a belly pan made of plastic swing it out of the way and then the oil filter is like on a Mercedes just a shell with a wick and an O-Ring requires 10 FT Lbs of pressure only when tightening and take a specialty tool. If you overtighten expect a leak.

 

This is not the kind of vehicle I would trust to just any oil shop to change the oil either as it can appear to be turned off and suddenly the engine can start. Lowest rookie techs always get the oil changes, senior techs avoid them. Not a great combo.

 

Honda however as far as I know still is the premium Japanese Manufacturer and in my opinion having worked on many of them over the years in my Non Mercedes role they are very well engineered, true over the years they have made some major gaffs with timing belts and interference engines but I think most of that has passed by now.

Thanks for the advice - I've been leaning toward PriusV but have only test driven the Prius - Great to know some of the small stuff that can become big stuff as well.

 

I have actually assumed certain quality levels with the Toyota while the Tesla is actually something to inspect carefully as it is relatively new and has definitely had its share of poor fit and changing workmanship levels. Not to mention a few fires - and of course the price - and price is a concern though gas savings over electric is substantial as well as maintenance.

 

Many cab companies using Tesla and Prius report very very little maintenance and Tesla cab owners expect 300k or more on their investment as well as added fees for luxury brand. - not to mention a huge amount of hidden room.

 

Anyway - thanks for recommending that I take a closer look before making any choices in that direction.

(the Celica's were excellent)

(on my Honda Insight I immediately installed sound barrier on the floor and door panels - and then had the front seats foam carved to fit and eliminated a comfort problem - great little car in general but known to have uncomfortable front seats and many of the Toyota's and Honda's could use sound barrier - it was $1200 total for sound barrier and customized seats)

Edited July 6, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

I have a somewhat mild concern about the electromagnetic fields of an electric car - I remember a friend who passed away was an anethesiologist and he was very concerned about the magnetic fields. 

 

Any good articles on that? - I can often see fields around computers thought they do not bother me - but I like long drives and it is a mild but real concern that I would look deeply at prior to a purchase of an all electric - and some hybrids as well.

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Dynasty said:

Okay dude. Calm down. Take a xanax or a valium or something. 

 

I'll acquiesce to you. All things good and holy originate from CA and Democrats. And I mean all things. The aids epidemic started in CA, and the dems are the party of the KKK. 

 

In other news, the 2021 Toyota Tundra full size truck is reportedly supposed to be a hybrid, have 450 horsepower and get 30 mpg. This will join the 2021 F-150 hybrid. Mileage estimates have not yet been released. 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, AIDS originated in Africa, 1940’s. Further, what does AIDS have to do with Democrats, given that communicable diseases are not political and don’t have favorite countries or hosts. 

 

https://www.theaidsinstitute.org/education/aids-101/where-did-hiv-come-0

Edited July 6, 2019 by ralis

[Pilgrim]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

I have a somewhat mild concern about the electromagnetic fields of an electric car - I remember a friend who passed away was an anethesiologist and he was very concerned about the magnetic fields. 

 

Any good articles on that? - I can often see fields around computers thought they do not bother me - but I like long drives and it is a mild but real concern that I would look deeply at prior to a purchase of an all electric - and some hybrids as well.

When I owned my Prius I could indeed feel the changes.

 

It was not harmful just a feeling of the fields moving. Washing over me like a wave. I would smile and think ah okay this is not quite right yet but we are doing out best. Glad to try to be a part of a solution.

 

 I really love the concept but feel without sufficient shielding and still blending with gas it is a fork on the wrong limb.

 

I hate the idea of precious earth metals being used wrongly in infantile battery technology that only serves nation states like China who have an abundance of said ore and while I am no genius to me it seems using them for this purpose is like a dumb ape looking at fire feeling fire and missing all that still can be from heat.

 

These precious ores have a far more valuable use, this I Know but can not say what,  but it is like on the tip of my tongue to remember.

 

Fuel cell is the way forward for now,  but profits are in the way,  so sad. Really sad. Emission equals water win, win. 

 

When lifting such a vehicle extreme caution must be undertaken electrocution is a very real thing. DC is far more dangerous than AC and 440 Volts of it will most certainly kill.

 

Electric has its place but not like this.

 

Clearly fuel cell technology is the way to go.

[Spotless]

Capacitor technology is buzzing pretty strong - lots of technologies are abuzz.- now that alternatives to combustion are past the wall of "that's not gonna happen" and with the excitement of the Elon Musk types out there shaking things up it is pretty exciting and optimistic. Do you think hydrogen fuel cells are going to become really viable soon?

https://interestingengineering.com/could-ultracapacitors-replace-batteries-in-future-electric-vehicles

https://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/

I will be in Oshkosh for the Air Show in a couple of weeks - electric airplanes were popping up last year and I expect more large quads to show up this year, though I would like to see the Paris show and others abroad where electric vertical lift is moving ahead of American tech fast. China is really pressing to get smog under some control - so is India - they are both pushing new tech hard. Small percentages in either of those countries is often equal to the entire population of many countries combined.

 

Honda seems to be still investing in fuel cell tech - FedEx has gone electric on many big delivery trucks in our area (Northern Cal).

I use to have all electric forklifts in my manufacturing  warehouse / showroom - loved them over Propane or Gas. My scissor lifts and extension lifts were either electric or diesel - did not like the diesels other than the fact that they were cool and huge.

 

Work vans seem to be perfect for electric - generally short ranges and lots of sitting around - I know of several companies that have switched and love them - mainly - they love nearly zero down time which is always the biggest concern then fuel costs and practical things (and you want the drivers to like them),

 

My great aunt had an electric car for some 40 years.

https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/22/16346892/electric-car-history-fritchle

 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Spotless

[Pilgrim]

Sounds great but something still needs to generate the electric whether it’s internal combustion or from the grid.

 

Seems to me fuel cell to generate the electric is perfect and capacitors over batteries or in conjunction with until something better comes along is great.

 

As for batteries Lithium Ion and other older tech  is where I get the heartburn when there are other technologies like sodium ion that would be far better.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

[rideforever]

We should think about this from the other end.

Say in 30 years Fusion power is a reality and make energy abundant and cheap.

How will you power cars then ?   (without petrol)

If you have unlimited electricity ?

Somehow batteries are extremely cumbersome, dragging this massive weight around with you.

Hydrogen has a higher theoretical density, but carrying hydrogen gas around with you seems like a terrible idea unless you can put an additive inside it that makes it less combustible.   (Hydrogen could be manufactured at a fusion plant from water)

Fusion cars seems like a really bad plan, I think nuclear should be in isolated situations.

I wonder if you might be able to manufacture a kind of petrol that does not pollute ?  (from a fusion plant)

In other words if energy is unlimited and you want to have cars as a freedom pleasure for people, how would you power them?

Another option is to fill up with both petrol and oxidiser, so that the oxidation of the petrol is not done with atomspheric air which releases nitrogen compounds, but from an oxidising fluid that is nitrogen free.

 

In general I think it is very important for humans to have the safety valve of drugs drink music sex and fast cars and to be totally irresponsible from time to time.   It is important to keep a certain wildness inside them.   The stress of human life is far too much to be dealt with any other way.

If not mankind will become a type of self=domesticated soulless sheep and humans will become idiocracy mixed with 1984 mixed with the Eloi of the Time Machine.

 

Also I see no problem with foresting the entire planet to sequester carbon, likewise in the ocean ... this will create employment and positivity; rather than the punish people for being bad brigade.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by rideforever

[thelerner]

3 minutes ago, rideforever said:

We should think about this from the other end.

Say in 30 years Fusion power is a reality and make energy abundant and cheap.

How will you power cars then ?   (without petrol)

If you have unlimited electricity ?

Somehow batteries are extremely cumbersome, dragging this massive weight around with you.

 

 

roll it back, we're 30 years in the future.  We have Fusion, ie cheap electricity; why would batteries be cumbersome and heavy?  Right now they're smaller and lighter then a car engine.  I'd imagine in the future they'll get even smaller, charge faster and hold more juice.   Why use a finite source like petrol then need to mix it with other things to keep it from polluting when when we have free electricity.  Seems I'd use one of the smaller powerful batteries that we developed back in the 2020's. 

 

The combustion engine is very complicated.  Look at a Tesla engine and its much simpler, practically solid state.  And the tech is just past its infancy.  When it grows up a bit, it will be the future.  We won't be able to rely on a finite fuel source forever, better to use the petrol for things only it can do, which is a whole boatload.  Why burn it up for transport if we don't need to? 

[rideforever]

I don't think so, the energy density of Lithium Ion batteries is limited, hydrogen has much greater density.  And batteries are dirty and old tech basically.   Recycling involves special plants that extract all manner of ugly metals from the cells, it's a stop gap at best.

 

Just reading about this .... there is formic acid which is much less dangerous than hydrogen and can be used directly in formic acid fuel cells.

There is compressed air pneumatic engines, or compressed air + booster engines.

Also synthetic petrol and other fuels can be made in various ways which are carbon neutral or carbon negative.

I believe this provide a long-term solution which requires no dirty battery recycling or lugging around 600kg of batteries, or explosive hydrogen, or insane nuclear.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_fuel#Radiothermal_generators

 

And it allow you to drive too fast coast to coast through the night listening to Classic 80s hits; which is in the end what this is all about.