Electric Cars : A Myth ?

[rideforever]

I had a shiver go down my spine today when it occurred to me that all the "young people" who want to save the world might not actually know much about how the world actually works, due to living urban lives looking at screens and not being much in contact with reality.

 

Are electric cars any good for anything ?   

Are they 50 years too soon to be useful ?

Are they, like AI, a creative fiction that has made billions for a small group of companies through clever marketing ?

Do they create a wishful delusion that human problems are easy to solve ?

Do they mask real world problems with something taken from a sci-fi movie to pander to a particular audience ?

Do young people comprehend the world through their phones, movies, tv series, facebook "values", and have little real life experience ?

Somehow I think it will all end in tears.
 

 

[Spotless]

The video is so poorly done - so completely full of holes - so intensely sideways. 

 

It is a childishly shallow bit of trash - where did you find this ?

 

Was your pining for today’s youth a joke? 

Seems you are easily taken in or it was a joke.

 

In another post you appeared to support Arnold Schwarzenegger who is totally pro electric and recently did a spoof on a car salesman that hates electric.

 

If you really wish to trash electric - you really need to speak to a younger person who can find better stuff than this dribble.

 

 

 

[joeblast]

well as soon as one start worrying about "tons of CO2" then one is already off in la-la land to begin with...

 

while it is a poor assumption that all or even most electric cars ultimately get their electricity from a coal fired plant, the massive malinvestment and ridiculous subsidies awarded to this barely fledgling technology is far more than what should be warranted.

 

the easiest place to point that's devoid of government subsidy was the Chicago Climate Exchange, which went defunct many years ago, because people simply werent willing to put their money where their mouths were where co2 was concerned.

 

when its government bureaucrats spending other people's money....well its already well established they'll spend spend spend, for their conscience.

[Dynasty]

There is an agenda to push on both sides of the electric car debate of whether they are green or not.

 

3rd world labor practices of mining the metals used in the batteries aside,  I think electric cars a pretty sweet.

[dawei]

24 Things Wrong With Electric Cars Millennials Choose To Ignore

Not sure the title is helpful towards getting millennials to read it... but the content seems useful to know. 

 

 

[escott]

Electric cars are a boondoggle just like hydrogen fuel cells. Interestingly enough, most people probably don't know that some of the first cars were electric. I saw them when I visited the Seal Cove Auto Museum.

 

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/

 

Internal combustion engines obviously won out. It was laughable (or maybe cryable) when Obama was claiming that the Chevy Volt was going to save the U.S. automobile industry.

[joeblast]

its all about energy density and speed of charge.  its only a matter of time before the tech surpasses gas cars in every conceivable way...but for now...for the near future, unless Trump's got some real wowzers in that upcoming tech he talked about, lol... its just a bad investment to get an EV.

[ilumairen]

On 6/27/2019 at 11:31 AM, dawei said:

24 Things Wrong With Electric Cars Millennials Choose To Ignore

Not sure the title is helpful towards getting millennials to read it... but the content seems useful to know. 

 

 

 

Hmm.. didn't read the whole list, which is written in countdown form. It fell apart for me at the outset. 

 

#24 no more long road trips. 

 

My brother and sister in law had no issues driving their Tesla from Los Angeles, California to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and back - a distance of over 2,000 miles each direction. 

 

Edit to add (regarding the list): the rarity (and cost) of the metals used would naturally lend itself to the recycling of old (out of service) batteries becoming a worthwhile (and potentially profitable) endeavour.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by ilumairen

[Pilgrim]

Owned a Prius from 2009 till 2013. It was the most horrible shoddy built thing I ever bought brand new.

 

Driving it was tiring over long trips which negates fuel savings because I did not want to go anywhere in it.

 

In the years I owned it I watched the mileage drop from 54 miles per gallon to around 39 and 40.

 

Clearly the batteries were dropping out and the damned thing always made high pitches electrical noises and hummed.

 

440 volt of DC is allot to push.

 

Come 2013 always needed a truck to do stuff around the house traded it in for a full size truck.

 

In 2014 made a 6 to 700 mile road trip and realized I still felt fresh and just how horrible the Prius really was.

 

Never looked back, will never buy another electric or hybrid car.  

 

Then again a Prius ain’t no Tesla...

[ilumairen]

 

On 6/26/2019 at 4:15 AM, rideforever said:

Somehow I think it will all end in tears.

 

What an amazingly generalized and oddly grandiose statement. 

 

~~~~~~~

Live Performances

 

Records

Eight Tracks

Cassette Tapes

CDs

MP3s

 

And live performances continue (through it all).

 

Things change; the tears only come with fixation and attachment.

 

We could play the same game with forms of human conveyance, or just the evolution of automobiles... people will travel from point A to point B. :shrug:

[ilumairen]

 

13 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Then again a Prius ain’t no Tesla...

 

[thelerner]

My 2005 Prius is still going strong, still getting in the 40's mph.  Course it runs mostly on gas, the real savings are its lightweight and aerodynamic.  Other savings are it cuts off the engine at stops, and at very low speeds and when 'feathering/slowing' down its goes full electric and you see the mph go up to 100 mph plus. 

 

My minivan is $55 to $65 to fill up, the prius is under $20, and it gets near twice the mileage.  Good to have both though. 

 

Electric cars have there problems, but the modern incarnation is only a decade or so old.  I expect them to evolve and get better.  Innovation has to start somewhere.  Our neighbors have a Tesla and the tech and ride are amazing.   There is a boondoggle side to them (subsidies, heavy metals) though.  But I expect as they evolve they'll get better.  Any new car design, especially by an new company is gonna have massive inefficiencies.  Cars being so complicated.

 

The dream of a future of having a house with high efficiency solar coming from roof & windows, great insulation, batter storage, high efficiency appliances and an electric car that holds way more juice then they currently do (ie true breakthrough in battery tech) then you've got a true world saver. 

 

We're definitely not there, but to get there we need step$ along the way.  We're past the baby step, maybe preteen but if it grows to its potential, that'd be great.  Gasoline is dirty, we're using millions of gallons daily (about 384.7 million!!, just US) and it won't last forever (unless we learn to make it, and even if it was fricken water we use soo much of it, anything other then sunlight would be problematic) 

Edited July 4, 2019 by thelerner

[Spotless]

It is interesting - the Prius has one of the highest if not the highest owner satisfaction levels in automotive history.

 

For years it held the title of best resale value.

 

I’ve never heard of shoddy anything on a relatively recent Honda or Toyota.

 

I have a Honda Insight and enjoy it - and the fact that nothing ever seems to go wrong with it - our BMW dropped off a cliff in value and cost a small fortune in repairs each year - not one Mercedes or BMW is in the top 20 in reliability - all the top ten are Honda and Toyota and one or two Fords.

 

Everyone can have a lemon and certainly some cars/trucks don’t fit a life style.

 

I enjoy my Jeep Diesel - But the Insight is lowered and has stiff springs - love it in the turns (though it’s a pig).

 

I’ve been looking at a Prius - more concerned about the electromagnetic’s and definitely not workmanship. 

 

Wife is looking at Tesla - they are produced only 30 minutes away from us.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Spotless

[windwalker]

5 hours ago, thelerner said:

My minivan is $55 to $65 to fill up, the prius is under $20, and it gets near twice the mileage.  Good to have both though. 

 

 

Heres the problem... 

 

Quote

Carmen Smith is one of the many Southern Californians who drive a hybrid or electric car. Most of whom paid more for their cars than they would've otherwise - to get that better mileage.

 

 

Now the California legislature is looking at a voluntary program that would eliminate the state's gas tax, which currently stands at 52.9-cents per gallon - second highest in the nation, behind New York. And instead institute a Vehicle-Miles-Travel tax - or VMT. The idea is just that - tax people for every mile they drive.

 

https://www.ktvn.com/story/25443144/california-lawmakers-propose-per-mile-tax-for-drivers

 

 

 

The same thing is happening with the electric grid.  As efficiency rises the cost of maintaining the infrastructure still has to be somehow maintained 

 

Quote

Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric and Pacific Gas & Electric had pressed the commission to charge solar owners hefty fees that the solar industry said would crush their business.

By Edison's account, the average solar customer under the current structure has a monthly electric bill of about $82. Under the commission's decision, that would increase to $91. A utility counter proposal would have increased it to $103.

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-rooftop-solar-power-20160128-story.html

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

Wife is looking at Tesla - they are produced on 30 minutes away from us.

 

 

ya might want to  think on it...although they are cool cars...used to live and work in the same area

 

Quote

Depending on the Southern California Edison rate plan, a 2018 Tesla Model 3, rated at 26 kWh/100 miles, would cost as little as $1.56 for 50 miles' worth of power if home charging started at 11 p.m. Or it could cost four times as much, $6.37, if the car was routinely charged during peak hours.

 

On the separate-meter time-of-use plan during the peak noon-9 p.m. period, that charging session would run $4.81. It would be $2.21 the rest of the time.

 

If you're going to be a heavy user of 240-volt public charge stations, pay attention to the speed of the onboard charger for any EV you're considering, advises Dan Edmunds, director of vehicle testing for Edmunds and an EV owner. How much you'll pay at a public charging station depends on it.

https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html

 

At some point they will have to figure out a way to pay for upkeep of new and existing road ways...

 

no free lunches...

[thelerner]

51 minutes ago, windwalker said:

Heres the problem... 

 

The same thing is happening with the electric grid.  As efficiency rises the cost of maintaining the infrastructure still has to be somehow maintained 

 

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-rooftop-solar-power-20160128-story.html

Both cases mention are maybes that haven't been enacted yet.

 

I agree at some point there will need to be a road tax on electric cars.  Maybe when the number of pure electrics come closer to 6 to 8% of the total vehicles (now <2.5% i think) taxation will follow.   Perhaps an addon tax to high voltage charges. 

 

 

I'm guessing people are generally smart enough to charge there cars over night when its much cheaper, certainly if its a viable option. 

 

Going back 10 or 12 years there were plenty of predictions of $200+ a barrel gasoline.  It was on that trajectory for awhile, but conservation and fracking have brought it way down.  But that won't last.  The world's use is astronomical, we go through an billions of gallons regularly, and its not like its being recycled.  When its gone, its gone.  Fracking was an amazing hat trick, but I don't know if we have another lined up to give us more.  

 

In a decade or two, I assume we'll be back on the $200+ barrel track.  Maybe.. hopefully longer, more electric vehicles should move down the peak oil date.  Seems to me in a generation or two or 3, we'll need another fuel supply.  Which follows mankind general pattern.   We ran out of trees, ran out of whales, coal was choking us.. we move on to whats cheaper and hopefully less polluting.   

[windwalker]

3 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Which follows mankind general pattern.

 

Due to population 

 

fix or reduce it most if not all problems go away...

 

nuclear is the way to go......

 

As far as the "maybe's "  once the electric vec. reach a certain point or the 

gas based  cars continue to improve which they will and are CA will change the tax

just a matter of time..

 

[rideforever]

Petrol cars are awesome !!!

It was hilarious if you saw that Swarzenegger video with him in car dealership being macho and trying to sell people gas gussling hummers, when all the customers wanted electric !!!

The thing I noted was how much fun Swarzenegger was having being a bit wild and revving the engine, and how anaemic the electric sheep were !!

 

I believe Lockheed have started testing a fusion power plant, so maybe fusion plants could be rigged to produce some kind of fuel so we can carry on being irresponsible and driving too fast - that's where we need to go.

Anaemia is not something we need in our society.

And then we can plant millions of acres of trees.

 

(Funny thing is this video has been re-released with an explanatory note to explain it is to promote electric cars!!!! God is great !)

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by rideforever

[Spotless]

We need to look around the corners - 

we are about to turn many corners on energy. 

 

Storage of energy completely changes the renewable game and it is happening fast.

 

3D printing will bring weight to strength ratio’s way way down while decreasing cost and materials.

 

One day War may not be our main reduction of wealth and we could easily afford infrastructure if we didn’t shit freight trains of money on it.

 

Corporate welfare - pharmaceutical support - pretending corporations are immortal people - the Affordability issue of Electric vehicles is a complete non issue. 

 

And our capacities as they exist can easily handle a huge rise in nighttime capacity use - it’s practically on idle during the night.

 

As battery capacities increase charging while sleeping is easier and easier.

 

Commercial use could swap battery packs.

 

It will kill much of the auto repair industry - but we did not prop up buggy whips.

 

I embrace the changes that are arriving.

Sadly a whole lot of people pine for the glory days (which did not exist).

We’ve been driving on Dinosaurs 🦖 slim for a long time. Slave labor and a whole lot more.

 

Things are about to get a whole lot brighter - just a few very weak leaders running amuck at the moment - very very weak (some fools call the strong men).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Spotless

[rideforever]

Did anyone see the Grand Tour where James May has a fish tank with the Indian Ocean and live fish in it and tries to carry it cross country

 

 

[Spotless]

Arnold Swarzenegger

is according to some “an electric sheep” 

 

He is totally pro electric and has converted hummers to electric.

[Spotless]

Another reason our grids have actually been doing fine is that we have been radically reducing power consumption during the day from an industrial / commercial perspective.

 

Large facilities spend next to nothing on lighting compared to ten years ago.

 

Building insulation and roofing materials radically reduced heating and cooling costs over previous methods and specs.

 

The combustion engine Only made sense in the past and will Only make sense in the near future but increasingly less and less. 

 

Natural gas could make a temporary play for a few decades - that remains to be seen.

 

We should be able to overcome the rare earth concerns fairly soon.

[windwalker]

This can be applied this to what will happen to electric usage.

 

"

Consumers and businesses responded by reducing water consumption an average of 22 percent statewide from June 2015 to January 2017.

 

Now their reward will be higher water rates.

Although California’s governor, Jerry Brown, officially declared an end to the state’s drought emergency last month, 

 

Local water agencies are planning major rate increases to make up for the fact that they are selling a lot less water than they used to."

 

As people use less, either through conservation or more efficient means the price per usage will increase through taxes.  

Edited July 5, 2019 by windwalker

[escott]

25 minutes ago, windwalker said:

This can be applied this to what will happen to electric usage.

 

"

Consumers and businesses responded by reducing water consumption an average of 22 percent statewide from June 2015 to January 2017.

 

Now their reward will be higher water rates.

Although California’s governor, Jerry Brown, officially declared an end to the state’s drought emergency last month, 

 

Local water agencies are planning major rate increases to make up for the fact that they are selling a lot less water than they used to."

 

As people use less, either through conservation or more efficient means the price per usage will increase through taxes.  

 

Truth is, in the United States nobody pays enough for what water is worth. Properly treating and distributing water costs more than what people are actually paying. Check out the Waterfund and understand their investment philosophy to see what I mean.

 

http://worldswaterfund.com/?accepted-notice=1

 

Although, none of this has anything to do with electric cars...

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, escott said:

 

Truth is, in the United States nobody pays enough for what water is worth. Properly treating and distributing water costs more than what people are actually paying. Check out the Waterfund and understand their investment philosophy to see what I mean.

 

http://worldswaterfund.com/?accepted-notice=1

 

Although, none of this has anything to do with electric cars...

 

 

true, but it does have to do with the true cost of things.

 

Used to work in the solar industry installing, maintaining and fixing tools used in making solar cells...so far the efficiency of  solar cells as I know has not  made them very cost effective yet... Its the same with electric cars.....

 

 

 

Personally I wish they would have continued with fuel  cell technologies  

 

Quote

Carmakers seem to have taken sides in the EV debate. Battery-electric cars from companies like Chevrolet, Nissan, and Tesla are already on the market.

 

Leading carmakers Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, meanwhile, have been enthusiastic proponents of hydrogen fuel cell cars. Fuel cell technology has the advantage of a quick fill-up time of minutes as opposed to the hours-long charging time that batteries need. But the lack of hydrogen infrastructure is still a key hurdle.

 

 

 

Quote

Fueling time varies with hydrogen fueling pressure and ambient temperature.

No waiting around at a truck stop for half an hour with an electric car—and unlike a gasoline car, there are no heady vapors to get all over our clothes.

1.  Their range is what you’re used to.
2.  

Expect a range of around 250 to 300 miles for your average fuel cell vehicle, a range that not only lines up more closely with your average gasoline-powered car but also one that few electric cars can match.

 

Here is the best-of-both-worlds advantage of the hydrogen car: It offers the range and quick fueling of gasoline and the environmental friendliness and low operating expenses of an electric car.

1.  .

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15345416/8-things-you-must-know-before-buying-a-fuel-cell-vehicle/

 

 

Quote

A hydrogen refueling station exploded in Norway on Monday and the company operating the station has suspended operation at its other locations following the explosion.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/hydrogen-station-explodes-toyota-halts-sales-fuel-cell-cars/

 

 

gas stations have also exploded,....the tech is there,,,and is being used in other countries 

Edited July 5, 2019 by windwalker