What is Enlightenment in Taoism and the "goal" of Taoism concretely? Endless cultivation?

[lightbody09]

Hi I'm a newbie, I've started to get into Taoism only recently, and beside the confusion around lineages, efficient practices, light body, real/fake teachers, etc., something more foundamental isn't quite clear to me: what is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?

 

I come from an induism background (I'm not indian, but I've been to India, had teachers, studied scriptures, practiced meditation, had great unexpected results, etc) and if you consider that tradition, even though nobody can't really describe well what Enlightenment is (for obvious reasons), at least a newbie can have some sort of idea.

I mean it's also called with a name and a good description which is Turiya and Sat-Chit-Ananda.

Then if you are lucky enough you experience what it actually means concretely, which is not a state of unchanging perfection where angels cuddle you and pay the bills for you lol, but of course it's pretty amazing compare to "before" so to speak.

 

All this to ask you guys, what is the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition?

 

I'm asking this for 2 reasons:

1. I don't see the connection with endless cultivation, I mean to achieve what beside permanent peace, happiness, satisfaction?

2. If a person, as in my case (I'll spare you the whole story which started with a spontaneous kundalini awakening until the crown chakra and it happened out of the blue, but I've been extremely lucky and blessed, I'll be grateful forever), does feel, or "has achieved" if you prefer, permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, what is the point of cultivation?

 

I'm asking genuinely, these are not rhetorical questions.

 

I see that basically in the end all traditions point to the same thing which is Pure Awareness, calling it with different names (Rigpa in Tibet, Nirvana in Buddhism, Dao in Taoism, Moksa/Turiya in Hinduism, etc.), so that's why I don't get the whole cultivation thing if you have to anyway "simply" dwell in this ever present Consciousness.

 

Of coure there is no end to the Evolution, it would be naive to put a limit to the infinite, but I'd say it's much "higher" and healthy to be full of love, peace, compassion, kindness, etc. compare to being able to levitate, fly, light up things, or who knows what other siddhis there are...

 

I hope I have been clear enough to give you guys the opportunity to shed light on.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

P.s. If you are wondering about my nickname, well yes I'm genuinely looking for a real efficient safe practice to see what light body actually means, especially if it improves compassion, kindness, love, etc. You are all welcome if you wanna share something  

[wandelaar]

I am wondering what you are still searching for...

[EmeraldHead]

10 minutes ago, lightbody09 said:

what is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?

with the grounding help of this world, emancipate/grow outside the matrix, then eventually you dissolve and leave only there, fully there. quit the mmorpg once you have a life....ahem, once you are life. However...forget the 2nd part. obsession with 'suicide' or higher degrees of it is an obsession. Similar process is inside the domains of the matrix like build post- Lower dan tien and live in the astrals forever...until you recycle in the matrix. I was reading some old e-library and this guy in the last few decades in the west, started up a cult, build a tulpa for it. ritual killed himself to merge into the tulpa in the astral and live there after. NUTS! ALL KINDS OF NUTS! Supernatural powers of all kinds on the way . So..hence all the talk about illusionary and impermanent. Astral and light realms don't last.

 

With this comes progress of self too. And essentially someone whos done some real work inside will also be some sort of star trek character ... healthy/capable mentally beyond average standards. I don't know how they give at least 70 IQ points or 100 to most people as most processes they 'spend' are so simple...You can gauge your progress on each plane by yourself. Because you are always in a Samadhi which requires energy to sustain/be alive. Hence I have a saying Progress is Energy^TM . The spirit self is the body imo.

[EmeraldHead]

21 minutes ago, lightbody09 said:

I mean to achieve what beside permanent peace, happiness, satisfaction

Who's ruined your morning? What is wrong with those ?

[rideforever]

What is the goal of Taoism vs Hindusim ?
The spiritualities on this planet have grown out of their particular cultures, and have the flavour of that culture.

The spiritual state is not a single state, it is multiple states in multiple dimensions, for instance the enlightenment of the heart, vs the enlightenment of consciousness vs the enlightenment of the tantien.

In Taoism being Chinese and grounded practical people they were attracted to the grounding of the belly and the centre there tantien, which has the particular function of being the energy gateway.  And flowing with the needs of life and earth and in heaven, .  And so associated with this tradition are many energy practices.

In Hinduism being quite abstract and smoking hash, they have been quite ungrounded and wishing to get the hell out of here, and sacrificing the human.   They have developed traditions based on the head, it's centres of consciousness, awareness, the 3rd eye etc...

Some other traditions are based around the heart, feelings, love, divinity.

 

At the present moment of time the spiritual traditions are in retreat, they are degenerated with many things lost, and only the core remains.

For instance in China they did once have a traditions which work with the head, for instance the Golden Flower talks of the square inch between the eyes as an important centre.

And in Hinduism they do occasionally trigger the tantien.  

On Hindu chakra maps the manipura centre is put anywhere from the part of the rib cage (solar plexus) to much lower down, as they are no longer sure what they are doing.

And what are the chakras anyway, if everyone just wants to be "conscious".

Basically a lot of degeneration.

 

Taoism : if you cultivate the tantien, you will also indirectly cultivate some awareness ... awareness must be indirectly cultivated no matter what centre you are working on.

Also as energy work has benefits in earthly life, some parts of Taoism are degenerated and now only focus on getting power ups and longevity rather than the spiritual work of discovering your true self and merging with existence.

 

Hinduism : due to its decay people no longer recognize whether they exist or not, what the value of human life is, or the distinction between awareness presence consciousness light body and so on.   So studying Taoism can ground you, expand you, and make you more human and practical, and do many energetic improvements.

 

Kundalini : people who are attracted to Kundalini generally don't care about such details.   And every soul has a natural attraction to certain kinds of work, after that they stop.

 

 

[silent thunder]

Shedding a bit each day...

Shed and release until what remains is presence.

Presence reflecting source in manifest and unmanifest.

 

Living presence unfolding, action arising or not, spontaneously, authentically... as a bird flies, as fish swim.

 

unfolding presence.

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, lightbody09 said:

...

 

I'm asking this for 2 reasons:

1. I don't see the connection with endless cultivation, I mean to achieve what beside permanent peace, happiness, satisfaction?

2. If a person, as in my case (I'll spare you the whole story which started with a spontaneous kundalini awakening until the crown chakra and it happened out of the blue, but I've been extremely lucky and blessed, I'll be grateful forever), does feel, or "has achieved" if you prefer, permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, what is the point of cultivation?

 

...

 

If you have actually achieved permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, then why do you still seem to be pursuing more and are not really satisfied?  And if you have opened all of your chakras, what cool things have you found you can do?

[lightbody09]

Thanks a lot for all your replies guys!

3 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Who's ruined your morning? What is wrong with those ?

Lol that's a very funny reply  

Nothing of wrong at all, that's why I've been wondering what cultivators would want to achieve more than permanent peace, satisfaction and happiness since it's all there is.

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

If you have actually achieved permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, then why do you still seem to be pursuing more and are not really satisfied?  And if you have opened all of your chakras, what cool things have you found you can do?

I'm very much satisfied, I'm not pursuing anything indeed, and I actually agree with @silent thunder , so in that sense the unfolding has lead me to hear about light body and taoism, but with no expectation nor seeking.

Jeff, I have no idea if all my chakra have been opened up and it doesn't really matter, plus we can't really know some things with certainty.

The cool thing I found is Life itself in its divine unfolding (including human needs, responsabilities, things to solve, etc.), always still yet moving at the same time, which is more than enough. And I'll be endlessly grateful.

 

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I am wondering what you are still searching for...

Nothing indeed as I said above.

However please note that life goes on, our humanity is preserved (luckily), therefore I'm sure you also agree when I say we can always be more compassionate, kind, helpful, wise, etc.

We can't simply stop improving ourselves (under all points of view), it's the nature of evolution.

And that's why I'm humbling asking, to learn, to help, to know new things that could be useful for others as well, always letting room for anything (spontaneously, without expecting anything though).

Because even if you realize your true nature, please know that you can't just sit on a throne, talking to others as if you know everything, maybe thinking you are better than others. As often happens with certain masters, gurus, etc, unfortunately...

But I'm sure here we all agree about this.

 

Thanks to all of you  

[Pilgrim]

4 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

something more foundamental isn't quite clear to me: what is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?

From what I have seen this person may be able to answer this question if she @Small Fur is so inclined I have read some of her replies and they are quite excellent.

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

If you have actually achieved permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, then why do you still seem to be pursuing more and are not really satisfied?

I believe his point is, is this all there is?  Furthermore even though worded cleverly he does not claim to having achieved permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction.

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

And if you have opened all of your chakras, what cool things have you found you can do?

Do not recall him saying he has, just what he believes was a a Kundalini awakening until the crown chakra which actually reveals it was not a real Kundalini awakening but rather some stored prana getting released likely from the lower centers as the true source of Kundalini comes from the crown. If it is not open there is no Kundalini awakening. 

 

4 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

I'm genuinely looking for a real efficient safe practice to see what light body actually means, especially if it improves compassion, kindness, love, etc.

 

In the end after everything else has been said this is what he states he desires.

 

These are good questions and his two main lines of  inquiry have not been answered as far as I have seen at any time on this site, wouldn't mind seeing actual answers. 

 

#1. Being 

4 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

All this to ask you guys, what is the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition?

 

I'm asking this for 2 reasons:

1. I don't see the connection with endless cultivation, I mean to achieve what beside permanent peace, happiness, satisfaction?

2. If a person, as in my case (I'll spare you the whole story which started with a spontaneous kundalini awakening until the crown chakra and it happened out of the blue, but I've been extremely lucky and blessed, I'll be grateful forever), does feel, or "has achieved" if you prefer, permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, what is the point of cultivation?

 

 

 

#2. Being 

4 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

well yes I'm genuinely looking for a real efficient safe practice to see what light body actually means

 

 

[lightbody09]

5 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

From what I have seen this person may be able to answer this question if she @Small Fur is so inclined I have read some of her replies and they are quite excellent.

 

I believe his point is, is this all there is?  Furthermore even though worded cleverly he does not claim to having achieved permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction.

 

Do not recall him saying he has, just what he believes was a a Kundalini awakening until the crown chakra which actually reveals it was not a real Kundalini awakening but rather some stored prana getting released likely from the lower centers as the true source of Kundalini comes from the crown. If it is not open there is no Kundalini awakening. 

 

 

In the end after everything else has been said this is what he states he desires.

 

These are good questions and his two main lines of  inquiry have not been answered as far as I have seen at any time on this site, wouldn't mind seeing actual answers. 

 

#1. Being 

 

 

#2. Being 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply, it's very much on point.

Sure it would be pointless to claim that I have achieved something, it's like claiming somebody gets enlightened. It doesn't mean much since enlightenment is Life itself indeed and it's all there is. But we have to use some words to understand each other.

 

About Kundalini (which happened many years ago and it was just the beginning of my path) I honestly don't know what to say or think. Too much has been said, too much confusion nowadays. 

But I'd like to know your view about it for sure.

 

So in the end it's as you said, I'm here because the unfolding brought me at this point, and as I'm free and open to anything, I'm asking to see what is that. Mainly because there cannot be a limit to compassion, kindness, etc., so if certain aspects (like light body for instance) can help you improving those good qualities, then why not?  

 

In my experience there is permanent peace, joy and satisfaction, but luckily I haven't been blinded so I know with all myself we can always improve ourselves, we all have flaws no matter how evolved we are, and mostly we can always behave better and better.

It's simply evolution.

 

Hope others will give their answer to those question so we can dig a bit more  

 

[wandelaar]

As there are many forms of Taoism one probably cannot pick out one particular goal as the goal of Taoism. 

[lightbody09]

25 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

As there are many forms of Taoism one probably cannot pick out one particular goal as the goal of Taoism. 

Fair enough, but for example all forms of buddhism have as "goal" Nirvana.

So, would it be correct to state that Taoism aims to realize the Tao (which I guess can be read as tibetan Rigpa, hindu Moksa-Sahaja Samadhi, etc.). And if so, then why all this cultivators looking for special abilities instead of the main purpose (the Dao) ?

Again, not asking rhetorically. Just to see what I'm missing.

Because in other traditions there isn't this strong will, or at least it's not that evident. And mostly it's been clearly stated to refuse all that. In taoism it seems almost the opposite (in the sense that it's always been very much encouraged as far as I know), that's the confusing part, among the rest.

[Pilgrim]

9 minutes ago, lightbody09 said:

About Kundalini (which happened many years ago and it was just the beginning of my path) I honestly don't know what to say or think. Too much has been said, too much confusion nowadays. 

But I'd like to know your view about it for sure.

It may just be the way you worded it. "Until the crown"

 

Muladhara is the accepted seat of Kundalini Wrapped around a Shiva Lingham etc...

 

What is in the Muladhara is very feminine energy.

 

The crown must open for the Kundalini Awakening to occur. If it does not at least to the extent that the entire spine become energized with bliss that is beyond anything you have ever experienced that grows ever stronger by the moment  scouring you from the inside out then what you have is a bit of a precursor for the event which is to come.

 

When it has occurred you will know. If you have not prepared then there  is possible to damage the body when it does. There are many stories of this including my own but that is not important.

 

For me it went like this.

 

I took up the practice of ZaZen spent time with a teacher every Sunday and practiced daily on my own.

 

Practice involved counting from Zero to Ten.

 

When each number was mentally verbalized I would feel it to its root even as the impermanent echo of the thought evaporated and then move on to the next number.

 

From this I learned to reach the still point or zero point of mind for the briefest of times.

 

Then this became a very slowing of the thoughts and a refinement of the mind until it became very gossamer and a gentle thing.

 

The brief still points soon merged and grew in duration.

 

This was when I discovered the source of all energy comes from the stillness the stretching out of the silence. 

 

In the stillness I felt the energy enter through the crown hitting obstructions along the way the first was the sixth center especially its rear trigger point at the back of the head where neck joins the skull.

 

It hit other obstructions in the spine as well and each of the centers vibrated like a chorus of Angels singing each releasing extreme bliss this energy went straight to the base of the spine and when it did it joined with what it found there and then both qualities blended and joined.

 

The cosmic energy coming in from the Crown is masculine the energies held at the Muladhara are feminine they are drawn to each other and the energies stored at the base are reluctant to move. So the energies from above come down and when they meet they recognize each other and become whole in their joining.

 

At this time there is so much happening that it is nearly impossible to tell any direction to the energy at all it is like a surging internal energetic dance that takes place and goes and goes and the longer it goes on the stronger it gets to the point where the physical body reacts very strongly.

 

So Kundalini awakening is very much an event and is dependent upon the energies from above coming down and rousing the energies from below and when they merge it is unmistakable.

 

In many ways it is funny the female rarely seeks a consort. The male on the other hand often pursues and it is no different here either.

 

If a person reads carefully I have just given instruction on Kundalini awakening and also must follow up with a grave warning. You need to purify the central channel and separate the side channels from sticking and twisting forming knots or otherwise there can be physical and emotional effects that are very difficult to deal with and your Karma will accelerate as well as that of those around you especially those you are close to.

 

Kundalini is transformation.

[Fa Xin]

34 minutes ago, lightbody09 said:

Fair enough, but for example all forms of buddhism have as "goal" Nirvana.

So, would it be correct to state that Taoism aims to realize the Tao (which I guess can be read as tibetan Rigpa, hindu Moksa-Sahaja Samadhi, etc.). And if so, then why all this cultivators looking for special abilities instead of the main purpose (the Dao) ?

Again, not asking rhetorically. Just to see what I'm missing.

Because in other traditions there isn't this strong will, or at least it's not that evident. And mostly it's been clearly stated to refuse all that. In taoism it seems almost the opposite (in the sense that it's always been very much encouraged as far as I know), that's the confusing part, among the rest.

 

I wouldn’t say Daoism has any particular goal in mind - actually if you read the Dao de jing, it comes off to me as being the opposite. Lao Tzu seems very content to just be as nature intends. 

 

As far as the goal of “immortality” in Daoism - that is one interpretation, but I wouldn’t say all Daoists are striving for that.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Pilgrim said:

If a person reads carefully I have just given instruction on Kundalini awakening and also must follow up with a grave warning. You need to purify the central channel and

 

Nice description.  That is basically the same process in Neikung, except done mostly with movement and posture.

 

There is one part that is different.  In Taoism they say tofirst  create the Empty Vessel, which then gives the yang energy a place to be 'stored'.  Artists extraordinaire in obfuscation.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, lightbody09 said:

And if so, then why all this cultivators looking for special abilities instead of the main purpose (the Dao) ?

 

Energy is cultivated to achieve oneness with the Tao.  Special abilities are a side effect of proper energy cultivation.

 

Anyone who is in a real school of Taoism will experience magic.

 

This is the Way:

 

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Starjumper

[Pilgrim]

Excellent video Steve thank you so much for sharing it.  

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

Lao Tzu seems very content to just be as nature intends. 

Reminds me Crowley had a nice explanation once approximately about how if you manage to unite with nature/what-is then your will is that of God as it's capable of the same, so you are God.

[Fa Xin]

17 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

Reminds me Crowley had a nice explanation once approximately about how if you manage to unite with nature/what-is then your will is that of God as it's capable of the same, so you are God.

 

Interesting view. I guess the question then would be - Would ones will differ from that of nature’s? Would one feel the need to change anything?

[Limahong]

8 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

... what is the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition?

 

Hi lightbody09,

 

From your "induism background" (Hinduism?) ~ you are apparently in a good position to answer the question.

 

Yes/no? 

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I am wondering what you are still searching for...

 

Hi wandelaar,

 

lightbody09 is searching for "the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition".

 

SO CALLED = तथाकथित (pr. {tathakathit} )(Adjective)

Usage : Your so called friend will not help you.
उदाहरण : तथाकथित रूप से अपहृत व्यवसायी घर वापस लौटा

 

... above from...

 

- Anand

[EmeraldHead]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

- Would ones will differ from that of nature’s?

The will is formless   :troll-face:  or rather beyond form. Its more like an idea. Or not even that. I'm (EDIT) Not studied enough on this

Edited July 2, 2019 by EmeraldHead

[Jadespear]

...the goal of taoism is not really agreed on throughout history, as taoist sects and people had their own interests and inclinations.  There are many schools, many practices etc for fully understanding one's chi and how to use it. 

 

To understand taoism at it's core, it is best to consider what many "taoists" seek to do, or ways in which "to be"; as taoists typically see the universe as in flux, which means they do not endeavor toward any type of fixed "enlightenment", but of a greater understanding and awareness of living in harmony with the "tao", or the natural way of evolution and change....

 

Hence, the first passage from the Tao te Ching is:

"The way that can be followed is not the eternal tao.  The way that can be named is not the eternal name."

 

Hindus and buddhists revere mental and soulful cultivation to the extent that they realize some great aspect of existence and herald that pinnacle of understanding as "enlightenment" which is then taught throughout communities and is exalted as being the "goal" so to speak for a great multitude of people... thus you have hindus with their "moksha" concept, and buddhists with their "no-self" concept.  Taoism if viewed from this type of perspective may seem confusing.

 

In some Taoist based books that I've read, the goals of taoists are multifaceted, some of them are:

- to live long

- to live happy

- to live healthy

- to live wise 

- to help others and not harm ( the way of heaven )

- to evolve one's state of being into a state unified with the tao ( Celestial immortal ) 

 

... I think above all, the truest thing a "taoist" could say that they attempt to do is to live in harmony with their lives and the lives of those around them, so they can naturally flow with the great tao of existence itself. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

Fair enough, but for example all forms of buddhism have as "goal" Nirvana.

So, would it be correct to state that Taoism aims to realize the Tao (which I guess can be read as tibetan Rigpa, hindu Moksa-Sahaja Samadhi, etc.). And if so, then why all this cultivators looking for special abilities instead of the main purpose (the Dao) ?

Again, not asking rhetorically. Just to see what I'm missing.

Because in other traditions there isn't this strong will, or at least it's not that evident. And mostly it's been clearly stated to refuse all that. In taoism it seems almost the opposite (in the sense that it's always been very much encouraged as far as I know), that's the confusing part, among the rest.

 

It all depends on the lineage or form of Taoism that you follow. In philosophical Taoism it's all about understanding with some (sitting or moving) meditation added, not about immortality, chi, gods, rituals, etc. But other Taoists often consider philosophical Taoism as not the real thing. It's hard to find the openness of mind to appreciate how everyone is on his/her own way to who knows where...

[Rara]

14 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

I don't get the whole cultivation thing if you have to anyway "simply" dwell in this ever present Consciousness.

 

"Simply" .... because it ain't that simple

 

The goal? Go your own way. Monks practice for immortality, wanderers wander, warriors fight, butchers cut meat. Whatever you do, be one with it.