What is Enlightenment in Taoism and the "goal" of Taoism concretely? Endless cultivation?

[Stosh]

20 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

Hi I'm a newbie, I've started to get into Taoism only recently, and beside the confusion around lineages, efficient practices, light body, real/fake teachers, etc., something more fundamental isn't quite clear to me: what is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?

 

Clearly, that depends on who you ask . 

 

20 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

All this to ask you guys, what is the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition?

 

IMO its coming to an understanding of the 'false narratives' we entertain. 

 

 

20 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

I'm asking this for 2 reasons:

1. I don't see the connection with endless cultivation, I mean to achieve what beside permanent peace, happiness, satisfaction?

 

Pushing for more , beyond permanent peace happiness and so forth,  is a definition of stupidity.

If you have desires to achieve other than what you have done , then you are not in the ' fully contented state' , and you should keep heading there. But recognize that you may be leading yourself on with a ,( yes,  same again ), ' false narrative"

 

20 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

2. If a person, as in my case (I'll spare you the whole story which started with a spontaneous kundalini awakening until the crown chakra and it happened out of the blue, but I've been extremely lucky and blessed, I'll be grateful forever), does feel, or "has achieved" if you prefer, permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, what is the point of cultivation?

 

 

No such thing,  IMo , false narrative.

[Rara]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

 

Clearly, that depends on who you ask . 

 

 

IMO its coming to an understanding of the 'false narratives' we entertain. 

 

 

 

Pushing for more , beyond permanent peace happiness and so forth,  is a definition of stupidity.

If you have desires to achieve other than what you have done , then you are not in the ' fully contented state' , and you should keep heading there. But recognize that you may be leading yourself on with a ,( yes,  same again ), ' false narrative"

 

No such thing,  IMo , false narrative.

 

I've missed asking you questions to help clarify your statements.

 

Can this possibly be that none of us can reach Nirvana because unfortunately, shit happens and we never know when we will be humbled again? 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

I've missed asking you questions to help clarify your statements.

 

Can this possibly be that none of us can reach Nirvana because unfortunately, shit happens and we never know when we will be humbled again? 

I think that is a reasonable thing to surmise if we talking about -the whole time while we are alive overall. 

 

Things constantly shift from being in perfect balance with where we are, we get older , get hungry , our loved ones , if you got em , start getting into a fix, the fridge poops out , the AC starts bumping. ( yes bumping , one day the AC started making a horrific sound , bang bang bang - a snake got onto the fan blade so when the fan turned on , its head was slamming into the four sides of the handler) 

 

But for short durations maybe people can reach the blissful state  I cant say, but coming home after work ,and after eating a nice meal , maybe the wife cooked up , and you plop on your ass in an easy chair , maybe you put on the ball game ...

and everything can seem right in the world, there's nothing needing to be done. 

Can I say that the world gets better than anything I know ? ,,, No,  I cant. 

And neither can anybody else. 

[Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

I think that is a reasonable thing to surmise if we talking about -the whole time while we are alive overall. 

 

Things constantly shift from being in perfect balance with where we are, we get older , get hungry , our loved ones , if you got em , start getting into a fix, the fridge poops out , the AC starts bumping. ( yes bumping , one day the AC started making a horrific sound , bang bang bang - a snake got onto the fan blade so when the fan turned on , its head was slamming into the four sides of the handler) 

 

But for short durations maybe people can reach the blissful state  I cant say, but coming home after work ,and after eating a nice meal , maybe the wife cooked up , and you plop on your ass in an easy chair , maybe you put on the ball game ...

and everything can seem right in the world, there's nothing needing to be done. 

Can I say that the world gets better than anything I know ? ,,, No,  I cant. 

And neither can anybody else. 

I could teach people how to achieve a permanent blissful state, not everyone as people do have to be at a certain stage.

 

Yes they will remain blissful and their world can come crashing down around them and still they would remain blissful.

 

There is a problem with this though. Can anyone spot what it is? Hmmmm...???

 

Spoiler

#1. The first problem is that you will miss the very reason your were born in the first place and that reason is to experience a Human Lifetime.

 

#2. You will not have many to keep you company so you will have created a situation for yourself where you are bliss and everyone you interact with is mundane.

 

#3. You will come to view the profane world for what it is and can loose yourself in all that underpins it and creates it.

 

In short escapism of the highest order and magnitude.

 

It is not all bad though if you can learn how to be in the world but not of it then this is a way of actualizing those words. You just have to know not to go too far and not fool yourself. A balancing act.  

 

[Limahong]

19 hours ago, rideforever said:

What is the goal of Taoism vs Hinduism ?

 

Hi rideforever,

 

The goal lies with a seeker ~ not the traditions. Why does a seeker choose one tradition over the other? Can (s)he marry the two traditions? ...

 

Broadly both Taoism and Hinduism have as their foundations ~ a union of body and mind.

 

Is the body common to both but the mind different?

 

If so ~ it is not 'Taoism vs Hinduism' but 'individual vs individual'?

 

12 hours ago, Rara said:

The goal? Go your own way. Monks practice for immortality, wanderers wander, warriors fight, butchers cut meat. Whatever you do, be one with it.

 

Be ONE with yourself ~ in search of ONEness.

 

Don't split hair.

 

 

   

              

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

On 7/1/2019 at 11:27 PM, lightbody09 said:

I'm asking this for 2 reasons...

 

Hi lightbody09,

 

Are you asking for ONE reason ~ actually?

 

Can you add ONE to '09' to make it a perfect '10'...?

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

34 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

There is a problem with this though. Can anyone spot what it is? Hmmmm...???

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

Why do you have to hide these...?

 

#1. The first problem is that you will miss the very reason your were born in the first place and that reason is to experience a Human Lifetime.

 

#2. You will not have many to keep you company so you will have created a situation for yourself where you are bliss and everyone you interact with is mundane.

 

#3. You will come to view the profane world for what it is and can loose yourself in all that underpins it and creates it.

 

In short escapism of the highest order and magnitude.

 

It is not all bad though if you can learn how to be in the world but not of it then this is a way of actualizing those words. You just have to know not to go too far and not fool yourself. A balancing act.

 

My apology for bringing the above to light without prior consent.

 

- Anand

 

[Pilgrim]

Just now, Limahong said:

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

Why do you have to hide these...?

 

#1. The first problem is that you will miss the very reason your were born in the first place and that reason is to experience a Human Lifetime.

 

#2. You will not have many to keep you company so you will have created a situation for yourself where you are bliss and everyone you interact with is mundane.

 

#3. You will come to view the profane world for what it is and can loose yourself in all that underpins it and creates it.

 

In short escapism of the highest order and magnitude.

 

It is not all bad though if you can learn how to be in the world but not of it then this is a way of actualizing those words. You just have to know not to go too far and not fool yourself. A balancing act.

 

My apology for bringing the above to light without prior consent.

 

- Anand

 

It was intentional to give people time to think on their own before looking. 

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, Pilgrim said:

It was intentional to give people time to think on their own before looking. 

 

But seeing is believing...

 

 

 

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

I could teach people how to achieve a permanent blissful state, not everyone as people do have to be at a certain stage.

 

Yes they will remain blissful and their world can come crashing down around them and still they would remain blissful.

 

There is a problem with this though. Can anyone spot what it is? Hmmmm...???

 

  Hide contents

#1. The first problem is that you will miss the very reason your were born in the first place and that reason is to experience a Human Lifetime.

 

I don't see anyone saying that the reason to be born is such , but I take it as fine that you think that is important,

; What if you die in utero? 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

#2. You will not have many to keep you company so you will have created a situation for yourself where you are bliss and everyone you interact with is mundane.

 So what , you wouldn't care , besides , your bliss would be mundane for you. 

 

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

 

#3. You will come to view the profane world for what it is and can loose yourself in all that underpins it and creates it.

 

In short escapism of the highest order and magnitude.

 

I'm not sure that's escapism ,, perhaps worded differently, I would understand this point. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

 

It is not all bad though if you can learn how to be in the world but not of it then this is a way of actualizing those words. You just have to know not to go too far and not fool yourself. A balancing act.  

 Yes , I agree with your conclusion. 

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

I could teach people how to achieve a permanent blissful state, not everyone as people do have to be at a certain stage.

 

Yes they will remain blissful and their world can come crashing down around them and still they would remain blissful.

 

There is a problem with this though. Can anyone spot what it is? Hmmmm...???

 

I think the words we use are insufficient. "Bliss" is wrong for this context. Anyone who "remain(s) blissful" while the world "come(s) crashing down around them" is insane. Bliss is the wrong response for such an event.

 

That said, I think there is a place for holding an unmoving center, as it were. An enlightened person absolutely could remain unmoved at that place in their being even as the world burns, but that is not the same as bliss.

 

EDIT: Another reason why words matter: many people cultivate to a medium or high level, in the process making great progress. Then something catastrophic happens - the death of a spouse, a failed career, loss of health, etc. - and they feel horrible pain. It's very difficult to endure such suffering, and if you have trained yourself to expect "bliss" at all times then you will feel as if you have failed in your cultivation, thus adding further pain. But, if you realize that bliss is not the goal, but rather an unmoving center, then you can fall back upon your training, not despite the pain but because of it. And in this manner you can persevere where previously you would have faltered.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Lost in Translation
removed accidental strikeout notation

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

Yes , I agree with your conclusion. 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

I don't see anyone saying that the reason to be born is such , but I take it as fine that you think that is important,

; What if you die in utero? 

Well if you die in utero then you got just a little bit of this life experiences and it is allot shorter than what those who achieve adulthood experience.

 

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

So what , you wouldn't care , besides , your bliss would be mundane for you. 

Smiling I assure you it does not become mundane, and you still care because even as impossible as it is there is the wish for others to experience what you are as well instead of being stuck with the tiny amount they experience of life and often dully. There is a feeling of love for others. The overiding sentiment is I wish I could give this to you and you could know this as well. Just gotta experience it to comprehend it.

 

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

I think the words we use are insufficient.

You are correct. 

 

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

Bliss" is wrong for this context. Anyone who "remain(s) blissful" while the world "come(s) crashing down around them" is insane. Bliss is the wrong response for such an event.

It sure is from any other perspective than that of bliss. 

 

When there is little to nothing one can do it might also be argued it is not only the only response left but the best one possible. Think of the Zen monk hanging from a tree root a cherry above a tiger below and to grab the cherry is to fall into the maw of th tiger which will happen anyway when the grip is lost, so he reaches up and exclaims how sweet it is.

 

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

That said, I think there is a place for holding an unmoving center, as it were.

Now you are getting warmer.

 

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

An enlightened person absolutely could remain unmoved at that place in their being even as the world burns, but that is not the same as bliss.

It does not take full enlightenment even a few shallow experiences that transforms you just enough is sufficient. 

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

I'm not sure that's escapism ,, perhaps worded differently, I would understand this point. 

Let see if I can reword it by starting with the mechanics of the situation.

 

First you need to have a few Kensho moments ( these are insights into reality as it is or mini experiences of enlightenment that happen over time and can be pretty subtle or hugely rock your boat either way they build up over time) 

 

I seriously doubt the full enlightenment can happen all at once anyway.

 

Then you need to do practices for a while until the crown opens and experience all that follows from that and it is quite allot.

 

After that if you will simply inhale from the nostrils with a feeble easy breath that becomes ever more shallow on its own and follow it 3 to 4 inches into the skull and then go straight up into the crown you will find your seat of awareness moved into this area.

 

All you do is practice this simple easy practice and allow yourself to become absorbed in the crown. 

 

Over time this will resolve into different states of conscious awareness and samadhi's of different depths. During the day you maintain this  lightly without effort and soon it just does it on its own. The effect builds and you find yourself even as Lost in translation mentioned with his holding an un-moving center.

 

What this feels like is you are more connected with the crown or fontanel than any other part of your body, your thoughts really slow down and become far and few between. There is calmness, there is a feel of being here but also elsewhere which becomes more and more real as time goes on and the profane world but a shadow of what is generating it.. Everything takes on a different luster and colors become more vibrant sounds more acute and so on.

 

People become beautiful and you feel love which is sometimes overwhelmingly beautiful, the heart softens and you feel more profoundly.  

 

It also becomes difficult to be around very dense people. You also develop an aversion to talking or having to respond to people in a pre-accepted mode they expect from you due to their familiarity with accustomed response patterns.

 

Things change quite a bit and if continued who knows how far and permanent things will become?

 

I have not had the luxury of taking this all the way to the furthest degree as I have always had to work and interact with people and a former ex-wife who was as hide bound to the what you can touch see and feel of this and the profane material reality of earth as any have ever been.

 

 Perhaps when I am old and towards the end I will kick out all the stops. As it is right now I carry quite a bit of this with me as it never goes away completely and am still growing into it even though I do fluctuate.  Once started the momentum keeps going.

 

The holding ones center here is in the 7th Chakra and it often goes up into the 8th and beyond. After the 7th you are entering into the lower chakras of the astral body. 

 

In each chakra your awareness is altered, colored, influenced in such a way that expresses the dimension or lolka and the psyco emotional quality of said realm.

 

In the crown there is stillness silence and spaciousness to borrow Bon terms, there are great waves of pleasurable energy that enter through the crown and cascade through the body with feelings of great pleasure /  bliss. Where ever an obstruction or illness is in the body it interacts and when it does you feel vibration, which can become very strong and make the hairs stand up all over your body and it can be orgasmic in every cell. You also experience feelings of divine love during the life force working with the thing in need be it an obstruction or an illness and it is a love that expects nothing it just is an rises spontaneously. 

 

You can also experience hearing inner-sound from the vibration.

 

The attitude is one of calm satisfaction and timelessness hours can slip past as if they were minutes and there is not a real concern nor care about much of anything you know things have to get done so you just do them in a very detached yet caring manner.

 

The problem with this is you are adorning the high heavens and not your physical life. You are missing out on the very opportunities that challenges offer as you are emotionally altered and distant and your sentiments are not the normal. There is also a danger of being to present in the high heavens and becoming careless here and now and careless is followed by wreckless which can be followed by unneeded tragedy.

 

Example during my peak work with this I came off a highway the off ramp was posted 25 miles per hour I was driving by feeling while in the high heavens it was not until I feel the cab of my truck lifting I realized something was off. I looked and I was doing 50 how the truck did not flip and roll I will never know. At that moment I did not care either other than I did not want the person behind me to get in a wreck as they were following too close in a sports car.

 

Now all that being said everything in proportion eventually you learn to live with this and as time goes on it gets stronger. If you can do this all it takes is a little practice and even when you stop it does not.

 

I do not practice this, it does however practice me.

[vonkrankenhaus]

The purpose of cultivation is Immortality.

 

But this is misunderstood.

 

A man alone on a mountain eating pine needles - he doesn't need to do that "forever". So that's not it.

 

True cultivator is not mentally disturbed, so no need to "fix" mentality - so that's not the purpose either.

 

Purpose is the ongoing development of Humanity.

 

It's the Human who is in this cultivation.

 

Humanity is two parts - male and female.

 

You appear as a spark in darkness. Movement and Stasis established at an instant - polarity, YinYang.

 

Uterus is an all-dark world that is an inverse of the outside Universe.

 

Uterine surface is like the surface of the planet. Empty dark space inside is like the outside canopy of space is to Earth.

 

Life grows on the surface. Egg settles in lining.

You are in 2 parts - placenta and body, connected by a tube. At birth, placenta dies and body continues.

 

You are born from an all-dark realm into half-light and half-dark realm of YinYang lessons.

 

By polarity you grow and reproduce.

 

Your body here is 2 parts - body and head, connected by a tube. Neck is like umbilicus was in the uterus.

 

By polarity you are taught about yourself and the environment that is making you.

 

You cultivate techniques of balance, homeostasis, and interaction, to stay alive.

 

In this life you develop ability with vibrations and information - thought and mind, etc.

 

Your 2 parts - Body dies and functions of head continue as "spirit". Body was like the placenta was in the womb, and dies like the placenta did at birth. Thoughts and mind still functioning after the body is gone - for up to about 49 days.

 

When you die you are born into an all-light world of "spirit".

 

It is a realm of thought and mind.

 

As you think, things there are.

 

A movement of this mind in the stasis of Death is the spark that caused your appearance.

 

The development in these 3 realms is Humanity.

 

If you cultivate this, Humanity will continue on this Earth "immortally".

Environment that produces you teaches you how and why. One day of life teaches many numbers and polarities which reflect in everything else. You live and learn. This is where all stuff like "calendars", Wu Xing, Lo Shu, and "medicine", etc, are realized and understood.

 

From this, you can make techniques, if you need them - times of famine, oppression, any obstacles - you can learn.

 

Movement in polarities is Qi. Study and development of these movements is Qigong - working with movement in polarities - all manifest phenomena are due to polarity.

 

This is not what most will think of, but cultivation is dealing with this.

 

It does not mean an eternal state of some kind of psychological or spiritual happiness or an infinite life wearing rags or being in a movie. It's also not what western academics of the 1800s & 1900s said.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Cheshire Cat]

The goal of daoism? 

 

Simply to live (or maybe to live simply) according to the principles of the Way which are said to bestow contentment, longevity and a mental attitude to perform better at whatever you're doing... then possibly to ascend to heaven after death... But it is said that those who are really advanced don't even need the medium of death to get there. 

[Spotless]

11 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

  Hide contents

#1. The first problem is that you will miss the very reason your were born in the first place and that reason is to experience a Human Lifetime.

 

#2. You will not have many to keep you company so you will have created a situation for yourself where you are bliss and everyone you interact with is mundane.

 

#3. You will come to view the profane world for what it is and can loose yourself in all that underpins it and creates it.

 

In short escapism of the highest order and magnitude.

This is not from anyone who has achieved Awakening on anything approaching abidance - but rather from later post it is obvious that a fairly hi psychic level has been achieved on some levels.

 

These levels will easily trick one on a whole spectrum of extraordinary insights and powers. And massive kundalini surges can certainly be impressive - and it is clear to anyone that has had even fairly simple massive surges that the energy is beyond even the slightest notion of what had been imagined beforehand.

 

Oneness is below Awakening in a sense - it can happen prior or after. 

 

If if it happens prior one may think Awakening has taken place - if Awakening then takes place it will be apparent that much had not happened that was assumed.

 

In Abiding Awakening it is practically the norm to stop practice all together - at least for several years.

And by then many have begun to teach and progress slows further - but that is not to say the teaching is not excellent nor the state in movement to Enlightenment.

 

And saying “progress slows further” is both correct and absurdly incorrect - if Abidance deepens massive unfolding will take place.

 

The Awakening May deepen in certain areas or over all - residuals May continue to fall away or not and subtle bodies will acclimate.

 

Continued active passive cultivation can continue endlessly.

 

In any of the conceptual 4 “hidden contents” above - anyone in an Abiding Awakened State would see them as wooden constructs devoid of sight obscured in the illusion.

 

Why would one cultivate “after arriving”?

 

the “arrival is endless - the Light is beyond light - the love is beyond love - the power beyond power.

 

Kundalini pumps through the heart - and well into fields far above and below - and the expansion does not stop year upon year - and it’s normal - sustained.

 

And nothing in the books does little more that to put a hue to what takes place - but concept and even Abiding Awakened Presence does not foretell what will unfold. 

 

Any surprise or newness of siddhis falls away - they are in every breath - a happening that is Divine Essence.

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

@lightbody09 I think from the answers received, it is obvious that Daoism and its goals can mean different things to different people.

 

The crucial question then becomes, what is it for you? What are you hoping to get out of it? Why are you attracted to it in the first place?

 

Clearly defining your needs and goals should help you determine if and how they might be satisfied within a Daoist context.

 

Philosophical systems are there for the people. It is not the other way around.

 

And hey... Arguably, this is Daoism for you. 

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I think the words we use are insufficient. "Bliss" is wrong for this context. Anyone who "remain(s) blissful" while the world "come(s) crashing down around them" is insane. Bliss is the wrong response for such an event.

 

That said, I think there is a place for holding an unmoving center, as it were. An enlightened person absolutely could remain unmoved at that place in their being even as the world burns, but that is not the same as bliss.

 

EDIT: Another reason why words matter: many people cultivate to a medium or high level, in the process making great progress. Then something catastrophic happens - the death of a spouse, a failed career, loss of health, etc. - and they feel horrible pain. It's very difficult to endure such suffering, and if you have trained yourself to expect "bliss" at all times then you will feel as if you have failed in your cultivation, thus adding further pain. But, if you realize that bliss is not the goal, but rather an unmoving center, then you can fall back upon your training, not despite the pain but because of it. And in this manner you can persevere where previously you would have faltered.

 

I think that Taoism is indeed more of a middle way, and not striving for complete detachment. After all Chang tzu did care when his wife died, although not for very long (because he could soon see it from the perspective of Tao).

[lightbody09]

Too many answers and also good answers so I don't know where to start. I'd need hours if I had to reply to each of you lol 

So I'll just say a big THANKS!!!

 

I do actually agree with @Pilgrim again, mostly due to my own experience, which cannot lie.

Sure there are and there will always be things to face in daily life which can be annoying sometimes, that's.....life  

That's why it's nice and also useful to dwell in the "unmoving centre" as you called it (yes about the term "bliss" there is too much confusion, better not using it)

 

However, eventually, you just flow with it whatever may arise, and that's why it's not difficult to deal with "dense people" as Pilgrim called, but of course you prefer using your time to do other things, in the same way you prefer to have your car fixed now and not in a week, if you have to choose. 

 

Ultimately, nobody knows and can't know if there is actually a "fullest" enlightenment. As I said the infinite doesn't know a limit, plus it's evolution's nature, but the difference is that at a certain point you just flow like a piece of wood carried by a river. And that's fantastic, at least for me.

 

In the end, even if I didn't study nor practice it, we could say also Taoism, with all its practices, lineages, stories, etc. is a way for that, it just depends on who is "using" it, as somebody stated. As always things happen the way they need to happen.

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by lightbody09

[Limahong]

9 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

That's why it's nice and also useful to dwell in the "unmoving centre" as you called it (yes about the term "bliss" there is too much confusion, better not using it)

 

Hi lightbody09,

 

If you have experienced/felt "bliss" ~ you have every right to keep at it despite the confusion. If you have cultivated it ~ congratulations!

 

Is "bliss" not part of Sat-Chit-Ananda...

 

"I come from an Hinduism background... had teachers, studied scriptures, practiced meditation, had great unexpected results, etc) and if you consider that tradition, even though nobody can't really describe well what Enlightenment is (for obvious reasons), at least a newbie can have some sort of idea. I mean it's also called with a name and a good description which is... and Sat-Chit-Ananda."

 

 

If Sat-Chit-Ananda is a trinity... 

 

 

 

... can you share this trinity with us to enlighten us on "bliss"?

 

Looking forward to...

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[lightbody09]

Sure @Limahong , even though it would require another post.

 

I'm just saying often bliss is thought to be ecstasy, or some sort of ecstatic state, like the peak of an orgasm.

Well, in my experience it's not. I've experienced ecstatic bliss and also ecstasy (in other words in my experience there is a difference between bliss, ecstatic bliss and ecstasy), but any experience as it comes, it also goes away. There is only one thing always present before, during and after. And yes Sat Chit Ananda is a great description of our true nature, probably the best one, but it has been misunderstood starting exactly from ananda-bliss, which is normal/easy to misunderstand for many reasons.

 

Bliss is permanent contentment, satisfaction, fulfilment. No fire works or orgasmic pleasure, although you may compare it to the feeling after an orgasm, not to the peak though (the orgasmic peak is a form of ecstasy, an empty one since it does empty you instead of fulfiling you forever like divine ecstasy).

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by lightbody09

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, lightbody09 said:

Sure @Limahong , even though it would require another post.

 

Hi lightbody09,

 

Thank you ~ do it your WAY...

 

 

- Anand

[Walker]

On 7/1/2019 at 11:27 PM, lightbody09 said:

2. If a person, as in my case (I'll spare you the whole story which started with a spontaneous kundalini awakening until the crown chakra and it happened out of the blue, but I've been extremely lucky and blessed, I'll be grateful forever), does feel, or "has achieved" if you prefer, permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, what is the point of cultivation?

 

Hi Lightbody,

 

I cannot answer you from personal experience, but one answer to your question coming from Daoist alchemy lies in the teachings on cultivation of xing and ming and the 陽神/yangshen/yang spirit. This teaching, boiled down and oversimplified, is that the peace, happiness, and satisfaction you describe will not actually be permanent unless ming training is complete, because you are still bound to a physical body that will die even if your mind is free. Once the life you have (ming) comes to an end, your mind will not remain free unless you have cultivated yangshen, in which case you have some sort of substantial basis from which to maintain your freedom for eternity.

 

Regarding the yangshen, there are at least two main schools of thought. In one school of thought, the human body of a practitioner somehow "births" the yangshen, which is like a copy of the physical body, endlessly capable of transformation and regeneration, capable of manifesting as a solid form or disappearing into nonexistence at will, capable of replication, etc. If it is fully developed, then this yangshen discards the body when the physical body dies, leaving behind a corpse which, according to lore, may not rot as normal. But it's still a corpse, in any event.

 

Another school of thought is that once the yangshen has been produced, it should be kept in the physical body so that the spontaneous processes that created it continue until the whole physical body is utterly transformed; when this has occurred, then while still alive the practitioner can turn his/her body into immateriality and back at will. When finally leaving the world, the practitioner leaves nothing behind, akin to Padmasambhava in Tibetan Buddhism and some Hindu sages I have heard read about, including one (perhaps in Yogananda's book?) who supposedly had his disciples seal him up in a room where he turned into a blaze of purple light that shone from under the crack in the door, and then totally disappeared.

 

In the case of either teaching, the yangshen is not something that can occur without there also being enlightenment of the mind, because a mind that remains occluded by delusion will prevent these natural processes from unfolding. Therefore, an immortal who has achieved the yangshen is not like a typical "individual" who happens to have a magic, undying energy body. Such a being is, so say the teachings, utterly free from all of the fetters of duality and distinctions.

 

Has any human ever really accomplished such marvels, or is this all legend? I have no idea, but I can say for certain that plenty of students of Daoism take these teachings quite seriously, and view enlightenment of mind nature as just one half of the work that needs to be done in order for alchemy to be complete. The ones who are serious about this teaching like to offer warnings not to sit on your laurels after realizing the mind's nature, as that alone is not enough to prevent being dragged down by karma and yin qi once the yang qi of your ming is fully exhausted. 

[Rara]

On 03/07/2019 at 7:57 AM, wandelaar said:

 

I think that Taoism is indeed more of a middle way, and not striving for complete detachment. After all Chang tzu did care when his wife died, although not for very long (because he could soon see it from the perspective of Tao).

 

I wouldn't say he didn't care for so long, but that he didn't lose himself in his emotions following the natural grieving process.

[wandelaar]

@ Rara

 

https://www.consolatio.com/2005/04/zhuangzi_loses_.html