What is Enlightenment in Taoism and the "goal" of Taoism concretely? Endless cultivation?

[Nintendao]

Ever the hopeless romantic, I will imagine Stosh was simply prodding OP to look harder for meanings beyond those tainted by wordiness. After all, the way that can be weighed is not the wei.

 

Imagine if you walked into a room full of engineers and asked "so whats the goal of 'engineering'?" You'd get a dozen different answers, and most if not all of them would have little applicable to actual practice.

 

Furthermore, lets draw attention to what Wandelaar has been exploring. I think the classic downfall of any attempt at explaining "what's this all for," is that by framing it within the confines of a mortal mind automatically begins to disqualify it.

[wandelaar]

Well I had some Jehovah Witnesses at my door some days ago, and they asked me where to find the answer to the meaning of life and I spontaneously answered "nowhere". They laughed politely and I politely received their flyer, and subsequently they wend to the next door. Later I thought somewhat more about it and realised that plants and animals just live their life apparently without any need for answers to philosophical or spiritual quandaries. In a sense the question of the meaning of life is an artifact of our thinking mind. The drive to live and to live well is hard-wired, and this drive doesn't need priests and/or scriptures to explain to us what to do.

[Nintendao]

The trees reach for the sky just as flame rises from a log. If viewed as a super duper time lapse a forest might look a lot like a green fire, or a seething foam. Energy progressing to ever finer densities. What will you do as a body of light? Can a fish dream of walking on land? Entry to the mysterious pass is inherently strewn with wonder.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Nintendao

[Rara]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

That followed after Chuang tzu realised that life and death are both part of nature and necessarily so. This latter realisation freed up his mind to see that even after her death everything is as it should be after all. But first he was for a brief moment overcome with emotion because of her death. It would be inhuman to evolve to such a state of detachment that even the death of your wife would be felt as irrelevant. I don't say such a state of detachment would be impossible, but it would go against human nature. That certainly isn't the form of Taoism that I appreciate. 

 

I had to read this twice, but I think we are saying the same thing...or are at least meaning to.

 

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Being content with being dead is only possible for entities that somehow still exist, so this story seems to leave open the possibility that death isn't the end...

 

You start with good Taoist logic here, sure. However, the tale pretty much has a skull saying he'd rather be where he is now. Yes, you're right about the death not necessarily being the end - and the skull is a great metaphor for this while still having a subjective opinion. Whether or not he is actually content is irrelevant in reality, because it's the moral of the story that counts for more.

[Rara]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Well I had some Jehovah Witnesses at my door some days ago, and they asked me where to find the answer to the meaning of life and I spontaneously answered "nowhere". They laughed politely and I politely received their flyer, and subsequently they wend to the next door. Later I thought somewhat more about it and realised that plants and animals just live their life apparently without any need for answers to philosophical or spiritual quandaries. In a sense the question of the meaning of life is an artifact of our thinking mind. The drive to live and to live well is hard-wired, and this drive doesn't need priests and/or scriptures to explain to us what to do.

 

C'mon, let's debate some more

 

Despite that, we are trained through meditation to calm animal instincts and thinking. But eventually, some decisions/direction/meaning must be made, or there's just no point in waking up in the morning.

 

My understanding though, through practice, is that the mind makes itself up anyway. Then there is only one path left...

 

...and...drumroll...

 

....that is the Way, or Tao, of the individual.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Ever the hopeless romantic, I will imagine Stosh was simply prodding OP to look harder for meanings beyond those tainted by wordiness. After all, the way that can be weighed is not the wei.

 

Of course. Stosh just wants us to understand within ourselves. I learnt that very early on this forum.

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Rara said:

 

C'mon, let's debate some more

 

Well OK.

 

Quote

Despite that, we are trained through meditation to calm animal instincts and thinking.

 

That's only needed because we no longer live like animals. Our natural instincts no longer suffice to keep our cool in modern society. 

 

Quote

But eventually, some decisions/direction/meaning must be made, or there's just no point in waking up in the morning.

 

According to my understanding there indeed is no point in waking up in the morning, and there doesn't even need to be a point to it. As long as one feels the drive to keep on living one doesn't need a point to wake up in the morning, and when the drive is gone no point to keep on living will make one go on for long.

 

Quote

My understanding though, through practice, is that the mind makes itself up anyway. Then there is only one path left...

 

...and...drumroll...

 

....that is the Way, or Tao, of the individual.

 

Maybe the Tao of no Tao is best, but I am too dogmatic for that. So yes I made a choice.

Edited July 10, 2019 by wandelaar

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

C'mon, let's debate some more

 

Despite that, we are trained through meditation to calm animal instincts and thinking. But eventually, some decisions/direction/meaning must be made, or there's just no point in waking up in the morning.

 

My understanding though, through practice, is that the mind makes itself up anyway. Then there is only one path left...

 

...and...drumroll...

 

....that is the Way, or Tao, of the individual.

 

Seems a very mental explanation in the end; tame the mind and it will find a single path?

 

It sounds like our 'domestication' requires meditation to calm our animal instincts... which seems the opposite of what I would suggest.   Meditation is meant to tame the mass domestication or societal indoctrination which focuses on mental applications (decisions, ethics, customs, morals, etc).

 

IMO, daoist practice (as I use it, not as say temples appear to do) is to get rid of the controlling interest played by distinctions and words... so as one gets 'rid' of the veneer of brain-washed domestication, what is left is more like just an inner voice; a beacon of light that reveals a source. 

 

Point to waking up:  If you mean from a mental POV then questioning whether there is any rational reason to wake up seems, again, too mental.

 

The point to waking up is the body is simply doing what it is meant to do, while it has manifest life.  Trees do that till they wither and die.  Reminds me of the philosophical saying, 'there is something rather than nothing'.   Each time we wake up, we can realize this idea.

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Of course. Stosh just wants us to understand within ourselves. I learnt that very early on this forum.

Essentially true, (though sometimes I am just mischievous), I truly believe that the things we need to consider, 

are things we do not want to hear. ( and never will want to hear) 

An argumentative win means that a person has reinforced what they already believed ,

whilst an argumentative loss means that one has gained a perspective they didn't have ,

(and most often didn't want.  )

Who does not want validation?

Who wants to accept that they have erred?

Its just an ironic fact of the human condition .  

And for the same sort of reason sound advice is rejected , even though it has been solicited. 

Its not fair to the responder , and does not serve the solicitor. 

 

There is that saying about the cup being full already and that one needs to empty it,

when one does that , there is no need to defend,  nor advance, an opinion. 

 

Such a thing that I was very loathe to concede was that in the West , we are not really prepared for the Daoist messages as presented in the text. The division seemed ...poorly grounded , however , I have come to see that it is certainly the tradition , 1) to look very shallowly as the written word , 2 to express doubt right off the bat 3 not to realize that all the participants are affecting all the others responses very inter-connected-ly. 

I can't really say from personal experience that the Chinese dinner table talk is all that different , but considering that as possible , the trends in our own communication can be understood better. 

 

Often people will get frustrated over time , nobody seems to be reading our-their message , though we deem it to be a good valid one. The poster has to bail out for a while , sometimes they do not come back , other times they do. but ..

Even more common , new members do not give enough benefit of a doubt , or do not hear what they expect, and bail. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Stosh

[lightbody09]

The problem of language, especially when you write down something, is that it can be misunderstood very easily, for many reasons.

 

However, with all conversations I've had in my life, of all sorts, whenever somebody asks me something, I'm used to answer to the questions, or otherwise I just say I have no idea, or that I'm not interested in that topic if that is the case.

And I expect the same, especially when there are important or complex topics to be discussed.

I've never tried to be deep, or to make bold statements, especially in the "spirituality area", if these are not backed up from my direct experience.

 

Perhaps I have different habits and that's why for some people it may be normal to invest their time in certain answers, as if they figured out everything.

 

Thanks for all your answers guys. Have a good one  

Edited July 10, 2019 by lightbody09

[Rara]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

That's only needed because we no longer live like animals. Our natural instincts no longer suffice to keep our cool in modern society. 

 

I wouldn't be able to say with my hand on heart, that we ever lived like animals. Maybe more instinctively than today, sure...a time when we didn't have weather forecasts and supermarkets. However, one thing that has always differentiated us from the other animals is the ability to think, which is both a blessing and a curse. The daoism paradox is forever present, and I cannot talk too much on it before it sends me mad, but it goes a little something like:

'Hey - yes, the dao is nature, flows like water, is intuitive, instinctive and just works. Here's the catch: you'll need to read about it and practice to get there, so you'll need your brain for a little while.

Oh, and your cat...yeah, he has more dao than you. But he can't think, and doesn't even know it. Psych!'
 

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

According to my understanding there indeed is no point in waking up in the morning, and there doesn't even need to be a point to it. As long as one feels the drive to keep on living one doesn't need a point to wake up in the morning, and when the drive is gone no point to keep on living will make one go on for long.

 

Wait, but even Zhuangzi did something. Then again, maybe it's because he was married that he had to get out of bed.

 

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Maybe the Tao of no Tao is best, but I am too dogmatic for that. So yes I made a choice.

 

Well, if it works, it works buddy. I'd be curious to know more about how your decision making process works when life throws a curveball at you, but this is and as and when sort of thing. I'm interested to know if your mindset changes over time, mainly because mine has copious times since the beginning of my Daoist journey.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Rara
Terrible grammar, as always.

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

IMO, daoist practice (as I use it, not as say temples appear to do) is to get rid of the controlling interest played by distinctions and words... so as one gets 'rid' of the veneer of brain-washed domestication, what is left is more like just an inner voice; a beacon of light that reveals a source. 

 

Hi dawei,

 

I am attracted to the word domestication ~ who/what domesticates(d) me... how was/am I domesticated... can I be de-domesticated...?

 

What is the antonym of domestication ~ 'wild' or something else...?

 

In this particular post ~ my mind is on domesticted/wild... and my mind shifted to elephants in relation to 'the veneer of brain-washed domestication'.

 

 

If I am a calf born in the wild or in captivity ~  am I brain-washed one Way or the other... how different will I be thus?

 

It will be difficult for me to be in close range with a wild calf.

 

But with a domesticated calf...

 

 

 

Are the above calves brain-washed? To me ~ not.

 

Are they displaying ~ a beacon of light that reveals a source? To me - yes.

 

- Anand

 

[Rara]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Seems a very mental explanation in the end; tame the mind and it will find a single path?

 

It sounds like our 'domestication' requires meditation to calm our animal instincts... which seems the opposite of what I would suggest.   Meditation is meant to tame the mass domestication or societal indoctrination which focuses on mental applications (decisions, ethics, customs, morals, etc).

 

IMO, daoist practice (as I use it, not as say temples appear to do) is to get rid of the controlling interest played by distinctions and words... so as one gets 'rid' of the veneer of brain-washed domestication, what is left is more like just an inner voice; a beacon of light that reveals a source. 

 

Point to waking up:  If you mean from a mental POV then questioning whether there is any rational reason to wake up seems, again, too mental.

 

The point to waking up is the body is simply doing what it is meant to do, while it has manifest life.  Trees do that till they wither and die.  Reminds me of the philosophical saying, 'there is something rather than nothing'.   Each time we wake up, we can realize this idea.

 

Nono, you are right. That is what I'm getting at.

 

Your first sentence...that's not so mental (as in, mad, right? Gotta be careful as we are talking about the mind so I don't want to misunderstand haha) The reason I say this is because of your next part.

 

Yes. Yes indeed. "Taming the domestication or societal indoctrination", as well as...acting on impulse...which is...animal instincts. All you gotta do as a bear is tread on another bear's turf and you'll be looked up and down and challenged to a bloody death.

 

When we're meditating, we are no longer going around shagging everything, trying to eat everything or barking at whatever we see in the park.

 

But yes, I agree that animals rely on their instincts more than most humans, and therefore "do" better than we do because we have minds that get in the way. Damn minds.

 

As to your last point, sure. Even if it is just to get up and enjoy a glass of water and some toast. And if that's all you need, then good for ya!

Edited July 10, 2019 by Rara

[Limahong]

11 minutes ago, Rara said:

However, one thing that has always differentiated us from the other animals is the ability to think, which is both a blessing and a curse.

 

Let us just dance...

 

 

[Rara]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

Essentially true, (though sometimes I am just mischievous), I truly believe that the things we need to consider, 

are things we do not want to hear. ( and never will want to hear) 

An argumentative win means that a person has reinforced what they already believed ,

whilst an argumentative loss means that one has gained a perspective they didn't have ,

(and most often didn't want.  )

Who does not want validation?

Who wants to accept that they have erred?

Its just an ironic fact of the human condition .  

And for the same sort of reason sound advice is rejected , even though it has been solicited. 

Its not fair to the responder , and does not serve the solicitor. 

 

There is that saying about the cup being full already and that one needs to empty it,

when one does that , there is no need to defend,  nor advance, an opinion. 

 

Such a thing that I was very loathe to concede was that in the West , we are not really prepared for the Daoist messages as presented in the text. The division seemed ...poorly grounded , however , I have come to see that it is certainly the tradition , 1) to look very shallowly as the written word , 2 to express doubt right off the bat 3 not to realize that all the participants are affecting all the others responses very inter-connected-ly. 

I can't really say from personal experience that the Chinese dinner table talk is all that different , but considering that as possible , the trends in our own communication can be understood better. 

 

Often people will get frustrated over time , nobody seems to be reading our-their message , though we deem it to be a good valid one. The poster has to bail out for a while , sometimes they do not come back , other times they do. but ..

Even more common , new members do not give enough benefit of a doubt , or do not hear what they expect, and bail. 

 

"Confirmation bias" is a term that keeps springing up in my mind. For a lot of things.

 

Definitely a fair point and keep doing what you do.

[Rara]

6 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Let us just dance...

 

 

 

Well, that was unexpected, quirky but surprisingly relaxing.

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Rara said:

Even if it is just to get up and enjoy a glass of water and some toast. And if that's all you need, then good for ya!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

14 minutes ago, Rara said:

Well, that was unexpected, quirky but surprisingly relaxing.

 

Are you sure... first chakra in jeopardy for human beings... because we are two-legged... and with a smaller brain?

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[wandelaar]

14 minutes ago, Rara said:

I wouldn't be able to say with my hand on heart, that we ever lived like animals. Maybe more instinctively than today, sure...a time when we didn't have weather forecasts and supermarkets. However, one thing that has always differentiated us from the other animals is the ability to think, which is both a blessing and a curse.

 

I refer to a time when we were somewhere in between animals and man, and when there was not yet such a thing as human society or language.

 

14 minutes ago, Rara said:

The daoism paradox is forever present, and I cannot talk too much on it before it sends me mad, but it goes a little something like:

'Hey - yes, the dao is nature, flows like water, is intuitive, instinctive and just works. Here's the catch: you'll need to read about it and practice to get there, so you'll need your brain for a little while.

Oh, and your cat...yeah, he has more dao than you. But he can't think, and doesn't even know it. Psych!'

 

We only need to learn about Tao because we live in a world where our natural instincts no longer suffice to tell us what to do. Lao tzu and Chuang tzu promoted the simple life because then we have to learn and train less and we can live more according to our natural instincts.

 

14 minutes ago, Rara said:

Wait, but even Zhuangzi did something. Then again, maybe it's because he was married that he had to get out of bed.

 

It looks to me that he had great fun writing stories and discussing with (or making fun of) the fellow philosophers of his time. What more reason do you need to get out of bed and go on living?

 

14 minutes ago, Rara said:

Well, if it works, it works buddy. I'd be curious to know more about how your decision making process works when life throws a curveball at you, but this is and as and when sort of thing. I'm interested to know if your mindset changes over time, mainly because mine has copious times since the beginning of my Daoist journey.

 

Yes - my mindset has changed over time. I have had to tone down my expectations of life from wanting to become the next Einstein to being a complete nobody. But that's a very long story, and not very interesting.

[Limahong]

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Einstein

 

                                               

                                   

 

               

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Rara]

12 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now I remember yeeeeears and years ago asking questions about image 2, especially. It's on this forum somewhere...if I ever find it, I'll sling it your way.

[Rara]

12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I refer to a time when we were somewhere in between animals and man, and when there was not yet such a thing as human society or language.

 

Aren't we to understand that our brains have changed physically since then, and that there is not a lot of solid information as to how the species actually lived?

[Rara]

12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It looks to me that he had great fun writing stories and discussing with (or making fun of) the fellow philosophers of his time. What more reason do you need to get out of bed and go on living?

 

Picasso liked to paint, Michael Jordan liked to play basketball. As long as we're having fun

[wandelaar]

47 minutes ago, Rara said:

Aren't we to understand that our brains have changed physically since then, and that there is not a lot of solid information as to how the species actually lived?

 

Correct - this is all somewhat speculative. But of one thing I am fairly certain and that is that technology evolves much faster than our physical constitution. There is a misfit here, and Lao tzu and Chuang tzu were already aware of it.

[Limahong]

10 hours ago, Rara said:

Now I remember yeeeeears and years ago asking questions about image 2, especially. It's on this forum somewhere...if I ever find it, I'll sling it your way.

 

Thank you.

 

Yesterday was the first time I came across the three photos when I Googled. There are lots more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...