Yi Jin Jing

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, moreira Filho said:

hi. Where do you learn the system? Thanks

 

Not sure about Jiang Feng, but Spotless - who spoke about the yjj system he inherited, earlier on the thread - now has a video on his site that is free to download, or with a donation.

 

https://www.monkwithfamily.com

 

https://www.shaolinmaster.org/

 

His style doesn't look like the systems of yijinjing that was sanctioned by the Chinese government, but does seem to be legitimate, and comes from Shi Yong Yao

 

 

 

Robert Peng on the other hand teaches a YJJ that does seem quite similar to the official state version of the form, which looks like this;

 

 

Of course I could be totally wrong and the form is totally different - just basing it from what I've seen from the clips. 

 

I believe he incorporates many breathing exercises and details that are missing from the common external-only style of tuition of this form.

 

https://www.robertpeng.com/yi-jin-jing-14-weeks-of-bodymind-transformation

 

Those who have taken the course will be able to chime in on that, hope that helps 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I've taken the Robert Peng yi jin jing course.  According to Robert, his form can not be learned from following a video showing the movements only as the "secret sauce," so to speak, is in the breathing.  (Well, he doesn't use the phrase "secret sauce" but that's the idea.)

[Dainin]

I first learned Yi Jin Jing from my medical qigong teacher Paul Fraser. He and his teacher Master Tom Tam learned it from a Shaolin monk when they were on a trip to China. Paul actually taught two forms, which he called external and internal Yi Jin Jing. The external form was similar to the second video in Vajra Fist's post above. Later on I got a Yi Jin Jing DVD by Master Jesse Tsao and it was very similar to what Paul had taught our class. Then I got the Chinese Health Qigong Association book (it came with a DVD) and it was also the same form. I've also taken Robert Peng's course and I'm repeating it now. His form is pretty similar but not identical to what is apparently the standardized version, and as Luke mentioned, he does go into a lot of detail about breathing compared to the other sources I learned it from. Some of the movements have a hatha yoga like feel and they are stretching the muscles and massaging the internal organs as well as stretching the tendons to a certain extent.  

 

The internal Yi Jin Jing that Paul taught was quite different. Here the movements were much smaller (some would probably be barely noticeable to an observer) but seemed to really emphasize stretching the tendons. Eventually I saw similar versions to this in an early book by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and in a VHS video series put out by Roger Hagood called something like "Oriental Health Secrets." I'm currently in an online course with Sifu Anthony Korahais and he's now teaching "Sinew Metamorphosis" which is also similar. I think these teachers are all basically coming out of southern Chinese kung fu styles, so I would guess that is where this version originated. I like both approaches and they seem to complement each other.

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Not sure about Jiang Feng, but Spotless - who spoke about the yjj system he inherited, earlier on the thread - now has a video on his site that is free to download, or with a donation.

 

https://www.monkwithfamily.com

 

https://www.shaolinmaster.org/

 

His style doesn't look like the systems of yijinjing that was sanctioned by the Chinese government, but does seem to be legitimate, and comes from Shi Yong Yao

 

 

 

Robert Peng on the other hand teaches a YJJ that does seem quite similar to the official state version of the form, which looks like this;

 

 

Of course I could be totally wrong and the form is totally different - just basing it from what I've seen from the clips. 

 

I believe he incorporates many breathing exercises and details that are missing from the common external-only style of tuition of this form.

 

https://www.robertpeng.com/yi-jin-jing-14-weeks-of-bodymind-transformation

 

Those who have taken the course will be able to chime in on that, hope that helps 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I've taken the Robert Peng yi jin jing course.  According to Robert, his form can not be learned from following a video showing the movements only as the "secret sauce," so to speak, is in the breathing.  (Well, he doesn't use the phrase "secret sauce" but that's the idea.)

 

 

The fact that Robert Peng pairs Qigong and Visualization  would set off alarm signals for me. There is no requirement for this...moreover, I would imagine the visualization of anything would interfere with the ability to ting and song correctly...given the relationship between the channels, the mind and the body

 

That's not to question his ability..rather to question what he teaches...He has often said he cannot teach people to emit qi...strange..because as far as I was aware, qi emission is basically a byproduct of correct YJJ practice

[liminal_luke]

41 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The fact that Robert Peng pairs Qigong and Visualization  would set off alarm signals for me. There is no requirement for this...moreover, I would imagine the visualization of anything would interfere with the ability to ting and song correctly...given the relationship between the channels, the mind and the body

 

That's not to question his ability..rather to question what he teaches...He has often said he cannot teach people to emit qi...strange..because as far as I was aware, qi emission is basically a byproduct of correct YJJ practice

 

I wouldn't say there's a lot of visualization in the Yi Jin Jing course.  Some, I guess, but it's not a central part of the form.  In any case, I don't question the merits of the practice.  Although I haven't been the most diligent student, I've gotten a lot of benefit back for the work I've put in.  

[Master Logray]

I have researched different YJJ styles years ago, wanted to re-pick up one of the styles that I used to practise decades ago.  The finding is interesting.  YJJ has so many different styles, all look so different and most likely different internally.  Nan Hua Chin said there are 35 styles circulating.  There is a contemporary China book which enlisted 14 major styles.  Currently one style is most popular, @Shadow_self 's link Master Shi Yong Yao.  It has almost become the standard. 

 

Comparing with Qigong, YJJ styles are usually more strenuous, more training on exterior/muscle strength (in addition to tendons), less emphasis on the mind or spiritual, all are movements, generally faster in speed.  I would say they not only result in more Chi but greater strength and power too.  Some of them are not so safe, not about Chi deviation, but they move in such a way twisting the body and doing it strenuously.  Perhaps they are more for the young and supple. 

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I wouldn't say there's a lot of visualization in the Yi Jin Jing course.  Some, I guess, but it's not a central part of the form.  In any case, I don't question the merits of the practice.  Although I haven't been the most diligent student, I've gotten a lot of benefit back for the work I've put in.  

 

I'm not  really making the argument that it is useless...It very may well confer benefit..

 

However..does it do as True YJJ is supposed to do? That was what I was aiming at.

 

The YJJ is a set of principles..not a set of exercises or practices. Visualization is not a part of those principles. Why add an unnecessary mental activity that has the potential to take away from a practice rather than add to it?

[Vajra Fist]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Currently one style is most popular, @Shadow_self 's link Master Shi Yong Yao.  It has almost become the standard. 

 

Actually, the point I was making is that the Shi Yong Yao one is the non-standard version. 

 

The second video I posted is the standard, state-approved version of the form

[freeform]

53 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The YJJ is a set of principles..not a set of exercises or practices.

Indeed - it’s a really difficult thing to change from ‘forms and methods’ to ‘processes’ mentality.

The arts are 100% process based… different methods will be used to achieve these processes.

 

The YJJ is a set of principles that kick-starts a process of internal transformation. I could (if I was weird) develop a method that uses different tea drinking postures to create the YJJ process.

 

The problem is that the principles are super simple conceptually but difficult to achieve… the methods are a bit more mentally stimulating and much easier to grasp and achieve.

 

Naturally people focus on what is mentally engaging and easily achieved - and loose what is difficult and hard to grasp.

 

YJJ principles should be part of any potent qigong form. 

 

There are indeed methods that specifically focus on the various aspects of what’s required for the YJJ process to take place.

 

This includes breathing methods to generate qi and sink it… stretching methods to strengthen the tissues etc.

 

The issue is that there are several subtle principles that need to be present for the process to take place. It takes time to achieve each of these… it takes longer to integrate them and allow them to take place at the same time. Only once that is achieved does the process start - and it takes several years for the process to take effect.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Indeed - it’s a really difficult thing to change from ‘forms and methods’ to ‘processes’ mentality.

The arts are 100% process based… different methods will be used to achieve these processes.

 

The YJJ is a set of principles that kick-starts a process of internal transformation. I could (if I was weird) develop a method that uses different tea drinking postures to create the YJJ process.

 

The problem is that the principles are super simple conceptually but difficult to achieve… the methods are a bit more mentally stimulating and much easier to grasp and achieve.

 

Naturally people focus on what is mentally engaging and easily achieved - and loose what is difficult and hard to grasp.

 

YJJ principles should be part of any potent qigong form. 

 

There are indeed methods that specifically focus oon the various aspects of what’s required for the YJJ process to take place.

 

This includes breathing methods to generate qi and sink it… stretching methods to strengthen the tissues etc.

 

The issue is that there are several subtle principles that need to be present for the process to take place. It takes time to achieve each of these… it takes longer to integrate them and allow them to take place at the same time. Only once that is achieved does the process start - and it takes several years for the process to take effect.

 

100%

 

This is why I am weary of anyone selling or teaching " Yi Jin Jing" as a practice

 

To liken it to something else...rather than teaching a person a "style of writing" like cursive, precursive etc... the Yi Jin Jing should be taught as " how to write correctly" , IE how to hold and grip a pencil correctly, how to maintain control and so forth....You learn the right way, so when it comes time to do qigong, dao yins and so forth...you already have the understanding of the pre-requisites necessary make the causality chains underlying the processes take off

 

Makes me very happy to have a principle based teacher

 

This is how I could see a certain individual who was trying to argue a lack of value in Wuji didn't know what they were talking about

 

Wuji, done correctly, with all the alignments in place....is in my experience.. very uncomfortable. It feels like being a puppet with different strings pulling in different directions

 

To put it another way...My own interpretation is that for a long time, You do not practice Wuji, you endure it 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Shadow_self

[freeform]

7 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

This is how I could see a certain individual who was trying to argue a lack of value in Wuji didn't know what they were talking about

Every traditional system will have a wuji of some sort.

 

They tend to look different from system to system… but there will be one position that includes all the key principles of that system or method within this one basic posture… everything else in the system will be built off of this posture.

 

Sometimes practitioners don’t realise the huge importance of the basic wuji posture and use it as the 30 second stance you take before you do ‘the real form’… in fact they have it completely the wrong way round.

 

Some teachers and systems don’t have a wuji posture at all. This indicates that it’s a modern or made up system that’s been created by someone who really shouldn’t be doing that.

 

No wuji is a huge red flag for me.
 

7 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

My own interpretation is that for a long time, You do not practice Wuji, you endure it 

 

This is true. The wuji - however simple and relaxed it may look on the outside should be excruciatingly uncomfortable in the beginning.
 

If it’s not then it means you’re either just coasting or the teacher isn’t teaching the correct principles or doesn’t know them.

 

Training your body for anything at a high level - whether it’s marathon running, violin playing, table tennis, hand stands or anything else - will invariably be really difficult and uncomfortable at the start. Boring, strenuous repetition of minute details until you get them right.
 

If it’s not like that - you’re simply not training at a level that will take you far - which is fine, of course! But it’s not fine if you’re one of the weird few that really wants to make this stuff your life’s work. Then it’s potentially a waste of a lifetime.

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

Every traditional system will have a wuji of some sort.

 

They tend to look different from system to system… but there will be one position that includes all the key principles of that system or method within this one basic posture… everything else in the system will be built off of this posture.

 

Sometimes practitioners don’t realise the huge importance of the basic wuji posture and use it as the 30 second stance you take before you do ‘the real form’… in fact they have it completely the wrong way round.

 

Some teachers and systems don’t have a wuji posture at all. This indicates that it’s a modern or made up system that’s been created by someone who really shouldn’t be doing that.

 

No wuji is a huge red flag for me.
 

 

This is true. The wuji - however simple and relaxed it may look on the outside should be excruciatingly uncomfortable in the beginning.
 

If it’s not then it means you’re either just coasting or the teacher isn’t teaching the correct principles or doesn’t know them.

 

Training your body for anything at a high level - whether it’s marathon running, violin playing, table tennis, hand stands or anything else - will invariably be really difficult and uncomfortable at the start. Boring, strenuous repetition of minute details until you get them right.
 

If it’s not like that - you’re simply not training at a level that will take you far - which is fine, of course! But it’s not fine if you’re one of the weird few that really wants to make this stuff your life’s work. Then it’s potentially a waste of a lifetime.

 

Absolutely....Im still learning just how intricate this one practice is. Fun times, especially when you get a new "layer" of complexity added to it! I literally feel Im being pulled in every direction... in places I didn't even know there was tissues  The word "drumskin" has taken on an entirely different meaning

 

What I gather is that there is an unmistakable feeling when all the alignments are beginning to sync up ( this isn't anywhere near perfect, not by a long shot)...and as far as I'm aware, even when the discomfort disappears, this other "thing" never does...kind of like an "on" switch if you would. I envision a few thousand hours more and I might have it halfway right . Having trained in Martial arts and strength training for a long time..I can say this, for me at least is far more "painful" and unconfortable....id take an intensive full body workout at 3RM anyday over a two hour Wuji in terms of comfort haha.

 

Oddly enough...having trained in weights quite a bit , while it did create a lot of tension which is still being worked out...An unexpected benefit was the ability to be able to connect the mind to the different parts of the body and release/stretch/engage it easier....I noticed a lot of people who didnt have such experiences struggle to get the mind into certain locations...especially the more intricate ones

[freeform]

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

in places I didn't even know there was tissues  The word "drumskin" has taken on an entirely different meaning

And that’s the experience of YJJ process taking place  

 

As your qi gets denser, you’ll find it will affect different aspects of the tissues.
 

At some point you’ll find that the stretchy tension firstly becomes quite pleasant - like a springy hammock that you sit into… and the qi will start to affect the softer, subtler fascial web that pervades deeper into the body (between muscle fibres, around bones, filling the spaces around joints, organs etc).

 

Then a new sort of discomfort takes place - less tense and stretched but more bruised and touching on sensations that feel like tearing flesh, or like being kicked in the nuts, or feeling nauseous etc  

 

Youll also start to feel very juicy and moist on the inside - kinda like you peed your pants… but weirdly pleasant  This is when your breath starts to feel like silk sheaths pulling through the body - also very pleasant.

 

so it’s not all suffering

 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

and as far as I'm aware, even when the discomfort disappears, this other "thing" never does...kind of like an "on" switch if you would.

I think what you’re describing is the sensation of yang qi building in the tissues - which creates this sort of inner vibration that feels uncomfortable. This does become more pleasant over time as your channels open. But don’t worry you’ll still need to endure the discomfort of channel opening

 

In the west we tend to think of qigong as a very gentle, relaxed form of practice. 
 

In Asia, people have an idea that not all qigong practice is like that. It’s in the cultural memory… though most don’t know why it should look so uncomfortable and difficult - they don’t know why there should be a puddle of sweat on the floor when all that’s happening is you’re lifting your arms up and down.

 

So it’s particularly funny when people that clearly have no understanding of the internal mechanics literally just tense their muscles as they do the movements in an attempt to simulate what authentic qigong looks like. 
 

That’s usually what YJJ looks like - people using muscle tension and engagement which they fight against as they stretch.

 

From the outside this might look a bit like what happens when you use internal mechanics… but of course it’s not - and it has none of the results that authentic YJJ produces.

 

Or the other fun one is doing everything in a super low stance - completely spread out (and preferably a flowing outfit and a topknot!)

 

(it may be pleasant and invigorating and a reasonable form of exercise - it’s just not YJJ). 

[Miffymog]

So is the basis of the YJJ to sink/gather chi in the LDT, then in certain postures direct this chi into the tendons, which then strengthens them?

[freeform]

On 14/02/2022 at 4:38 PM, NickC said:

So is the basis of the YJJ to sink/gather chi in the LDT, then in certain postures direct this chi into the tendons, which then strengthens them?

Not quite.

 

The aim isn’t to strengthen the tendons - the aim is to transform the nature of your muscles, fascia, tendons and ligaments. This essentially enables you to open the physical aspect of the channel system (the Jing jin).

 

This is mostly achieved by qi - not physical movements, imagination or mental intention. When the qi grows denser (from Dantien based practices generally) it will automatically start to interact with different tissues in the body… usually starting with skin, then the nerves, then the muscles, then the thicker tendons and ligaments, then the finer fascial web… eventually even the bones and the bone marrow (though this is more Xi Sui Jing). 

The various postures and movements are a way of adding a stressor to the corresponding area while the qi fills it. This is what causes transformation. 
 

I haven’t cut up a qigong practitioner, so don’t know this for sure, but the  muscles and connective tissues feel like they change very physically. It’s like certain fibres within the muscles start to line up a certain way… muscles that you don’t normally use (like the deeper postural muscles and ones near the bones) get much stronger and feel sort of striated… then the whole body starts to knit together through the fascial web.

Even though you don’t have a muscle that connects your palm to your lower back, after the YJJ process the connection feels super obvious. When you engage this fascial network the large muscles are relaxed and soft, but there’s this taut network of connective tissues through the whole body… taut like guitar strings - like a taut drum skin through the entirety of the body - everything is connected and vibration can pass through the body easily… also (and this is a bit of a hint to people doing this stuff) one’s attention is able to freely suffuse into every part of your body.
 

Eventually you can do weird stuff like wiggle your liver or expand and contract your chest cavity without using air pressure from your lungs or even move the various bones in your skull… need a vertebra to pop into the right place? You can just do it - without the chiropractic style manipulation of your external body.

 

It’s quite a long process and practice is difficult and uncomfortable - it’s like the equivalent of heavy weight lifting. If you look at students performing it and it looks like a comfortable, gentle stretch then there’s usually no YJJ process happening.

 

The resulting ‘qigong body’ means it’s fully connected, means qi and attention can pass freely throughout the body, means that you’re able to generate much more qi during practice and because all the channels lead to the organ system, these will be tonified, strengthened and allowed to purge any energetic pathogens easily.

[Dainin]

I just came across this today. I haven't read any of it in detail yet, but at first glance it looks quite comprehensive and interesting. I believe that he will be releasing an online course on Muscle-Tendon Change early next year (February 8).

 

Muscle-Tendon Change, Marrow Washing & Fascial Training: series of articles by Tom Bisio:

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-1-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-2-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-3-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-4-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-5-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-6-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-7-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-8-by-tom-bisio/

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/muscle-tendon-change-marrow-washing-fascial-training-part-9-by-tom-bisio/

 

Added sections 8-9

Edited January 30 by Dainin
Added section 9

[Dainin]

Bumping for two added sections in Tom Bisio's Yi Jin Jing article series above and added release date for his course (February 8, 2024)

Edited January 30 by Dainin

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Dainin said:

Bumping for two added sections in Tom Bisio's Yi Jin Jing article series above and added release date for his course (February 8, 2024)

 

Is the class offered online?  Do you have a link to the sign-up page?  Thanks!

[Dainin]

Yes, his courses are online on the Gumroad platform. He usually gives a small discount during the first few days after releasing them. His monthly email earlier today said:

 

"And speaking of rejuvenation, just in time for Lunar New Year look for our Launch Sale of the Muscle-Tendon Change & Marrow Washing Online Learning Program beginning February 8 at 12pm EST. This very complete online program gives you access to the training methods of Shaolin Monks and Daoist adepts that rebuild the body's fascial system to develop flexible and elastic internal strength and healthy bones, tendons, ligaments, and muscles. Look for our email and facebook posts announcing the launch and sale!

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/online-programs/