Question about breath retention

[Pilgrim]

8 hours ago, MuadDib said:

Thank you very much for your kind suggestions. I will try to fit these practices into my daily schedule. If some progress is made, I will share them here. 

 

Looking over some earlier replies, I sense that I might have conveyed the idea that I draw in a big breath, empty the lungs and try to hold it for as long as possible to get the *high* feeling. 

 

The process is more like I sit/lie down for relaxation/meditation, after a while the breath and mind calms down, I pause for a few seconds with empty lungs and experience energy moving around the body for a few seconds - until I have to breathe again. I like how it feels so I wish to stay in that state, however this results in a less calm breath next time so upsets the process. I share this just as a clarification, those who kindly gave advices do not need to repeat them 😊

 

As a side note, I find that it is much easier to enter this happy, blissful state when I am (water) fasting. Sitting for meditation, doing some basic yoga or zhan zhuang feels much more powerful and effective if I am fasting.

 

So if the body is more hollow (empty stomach/gut, empty lungs) it becomes easier to feel and work with energy?

 

Thanks.

 

The reason why fasting helps is less Prana and nerve energy is being used for digestion.  

 

Right now you are working with a more  body type energy that comes from food, air, water not the raw source but that which has already been processed and modified for body life use. 

 

This is good. In time you will learn by working your way backwards to entertain the raw source.

 

Later it becomes less about the body and more about real stillness,  but that takes a while for most,  you are on the right track.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Pilgrim

[Everything]

The point is not the meditation, or technique or tool. They are all simply nothing more but permission slips that we give ourselves to be more fully all that we truely already are. And the positive good feeling emotions are also simply accurate indications of the degree of your state of allowance. Of being more fully all that it is that you truely already are, in any given moment in time.

 

Only your thoughts of resistance, can withhold your natural state of being in full alignment with all that you truely are, and thereby thus then naturally feeling very good. But because it is easier for most humans to simply think no thought, than to think pure positive thought which is in alignment with all that you truely are, many teachers simply teach meditation. Because if you think no thought, you also think no resistant thought. And when you think no resistant thought, your natural state of being, naturally and effortlessly reestablishes itself naturally and effortlessly. And then you feel that good feeling positive emotions like bliss or love or joy or freedom or empowerment, which are simply indicating your are allowing yourself to have more acces to your very own greater being and becoming evermore. Your own fuller truer self. Consciously wakefully. In a manner that you are allowing it to be realised by you in a more fully conscious manner. So as to consciously allow the conscious benefit of all that you truely are, and are being who you've always ment to be and who and what you always wanted and do want to be do or have, always right here and now. 

 

That's simply a joy you have to allow. And meditation helps with that. But meditation is not the point any more than words can ever replace your true being any less than emotions simply being an accurate gage/indicator of your degree of allowing it in the moment or not. 

 

So whenever you meditate, simply do it with the intention of allowing your true good/better feeling nature to come forth more. Because meditation is a very universal tool/technique/permission slip. As it is truely very easy/universal in practice and effect.

 

The goal is simply to release resistance and allow your greater more true full self. How you do or not do that, is insignificant. And that you feel better is unavoidable.

 

Your imagination is even custom tailored to you, for you to invent your very own unique permission slips that you give yourself to be more fully all that it is that you truely are. "Whenever I do or think this, I will be more true to myself." 

 

You can also simply meditate, and your true self will simply naturally be allowed to come back to its natural and effortless full fruition more, always, and always along the path of least resistance, evermore, ongoingly.

That doesn't require you to do or not do anything, except allow it more fully. And when you feel worse, emotionally, you simply replace and hold your attention on your breath again more fully and consustently, thereby release thoughts of resistance, causing you to feel better again, and thus have more full acces to your greater knowing again, untill you block it again, with thoughts which are self contradictory in nature.

 

You don't need to study your true being for millions of years, since you already are it, always here and now, further more, your greater true being and knowing is unconditional, eternal and infinite and always inseperale from your physical being, hence you always feel the emotion of these two relatives, of physical and greater non-physical being of all that you truely are.

 

So you can simply let go of all that is not of who you truely are. And then you will simply naturally live in joy, always at the right place at the right time, always inspired to action that achieves more than millions who are not in self-allowed alignment with all that they truely are. Because it is WHO YOU REALLY ARE! YOUR OWN TRUE UNIQUE POINT OF VIEW OF ALL OF CREATION! AND YOU ARE ETERNALLY AND INFINITELY WORTHY EVERMORE OF ALL AND ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN EVER WANT TO BE DO OR HAVE EVERMORE! No matter who or what you are, you are always blessed, and now is always the right time to feel joy. 

 

But you cannot let go of that which is not of all that you truely are, unless you focus on something else instead. Hence your breath. Hence meditation. Hence mantra. Or whatever you wanna focus upon that doesn't encourage thought. Just letting go of thought, by focusing on something else which does not induce thought, consistently enough so as to release all thoughts of resistance in nature, more fully, allowing your true nature to come to full realisation more and thus then enjoying the primary manifestation of that, of your good feeling emotions. It really is that simple. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Everything

[Cheshire Cat]

On 7/7/2019 at 12:39 AM, voidisyinyang said:

So for example Master Nan, Huai-chin makes this same point and also Wim Hof.

 

This is incorrect. 

Master Nan taught to hold after inhale and Wim Hoff teaches to hold after exhalation AND inhalation. 

[MuadDib]

@Everything That was a beautiful post. Your words resonate very strongly with me.

 

I think the fast paced busy-ness of modern civilization wires us so that we forget in your words "what we truly are." It stays forgotten unless one makes a conscious effort to undo the wiring. Speaking for myself, I'm not even close to saying that I have come to the realization of what I truly am. Maybe I've had very brief glimpses so far, scratching the surface a little bit. Still feeling extremely wired and susceptible to getting caught up in the daily ups and downs of life.

 

Thanks.

[joeblast]

19 hours ago, MuadDib said:

Thank you very much for your kind suggestions. I will try to fit these practices into my daily schedule. If some progress is made, I will share them here. 

 

Looking over some earlier replies, I sense that I might have conveyed the idea that I draw in a big breath, empty the lungs and try to hold it for as long as possible to get the *high* feeling. 

 

The process is more like I sit/lie down for relaxation/meditation, after a while the breath and mind calms down, I pause for a few seconds with empty lungs and experience energy moving around the body for a few seconds - until I have to breathe again. I like how it feels so I wish to stay in that state, however this results in a less calm breath next time so upsets the process. I share this just as a clarification, those who kindly gave advices do not need to repeat them 😊

 

As a side note, I find that it is much easier to enter this happy, blissful state when I am (water) fasting. Sitting for meditation, doing some basic yoga or zhan zhuang feels much more powerful and effective if I am fasting.

 

So if the body is more hollow (empty stomach/gut, empty lungs) it becomes easier to feel and work with energy?

 

Thanks.

 

I'm lazy and enjoy my food too much, but I achieved minute and a half averages before.  Its got more to do with the work you put in as opposed to the little refinements that show their max efficacy after the fundamentals are roted into the muscle memory.

 

That's the whole point of eliminating the airflow-signal to the olfactory nerve and rolling the inhales and exhales into one another, is that it conveys that exact same sense that happens momentarily from those little energy-peaks during meditation where its comfortable to sit with the excess until it burns off a bit and you have to breathe again.  Its really all about the signals generated and the energy consumed by the generation of those signals.  Once that additional energy is there as a matter of regularity and its built upon, that's what forms the basis for samhadi - so those energy boosts and such are signposts along the way, its the sparks off a flint before the fire gets going.

 

Once the endocrine system is fully primed and gung is built and samhadi happens regularly, how can one not be happy - but that really winds up also manifesting the childlike wonder at everything too, where one can look at most things and winds up deriving simple pleasure from their sheer existence.  That becomes more of an ongoing state instead of something that happens momentarily, which eventually gives rise to a contentment.

 

12 hours ago, C T said:

 

Keep in mind that working with energy requires familiarisation with the subtle channels, meaning it requires skillful knowledge of the subtle body. 

 

While fasting and conditioning internal organs are helpful to a point, the primary consideration will always remain focussed on the subtle body (as visualised to be ethereal, with chakras, channels and so on, each lighted accordingly). The purpose of conditioning the physical body is to discipline the arising of acute concentration facilitating prolonged clarity in maintaining said visualisation. Once this concentration is habituated, the routines involving physical manipulations take on a secondary role. Yet, there are many (loosely termed as yogis) who find it challenging to let go of the concentration on the physical because of the addiction to the "highs" generated. But these highs, being temporal, create a cycle of dependency. Therefore, its good to be aware the bliss generated thru conditioning this gross physical body is rather limited, ie shallow, effortful, and ultimately unsatisfactory. 

I dont really see it as useful to think of it as limited, shallow, effortful, or unsatisfactory - instead I see it as merely signposts on the way, and all attendant phenomena are experiences to be had and recognized, transcended positively as opposed to thinking the body is a nasty bag of crap that just helps us get from point a to point b.

 

[C T]

 

25 minutes ago, joeblast said:

I dont really see it as useful to think of it as limited, shallow, effortful, or unsatisfactory - instead I see it as merely signposts on the way, and all attendant phenomena are experiences to be had and recognized, transcended positively as opposed to thinking the body is a nasty bag of crap that just helps us get from point a to point b.

 

 

What was inferred was not that the body's a nasty crap receptacle, but a mere vehicle with limitations, and to not over-reach with expectations while holding to an awareness of when to let go of associated dependencies. Because of these limitations, transcendence or malleability at the physical level has its own apparent frustrations. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by C T

[joeblast]

27 minutes ago, C T said:

 

 

What was inferred was not that the body's a nasty crap receptacle, but a mere vehicle with limitations, and to not over-reach with expectations while holding to an awareness of when to let go of associated dependencies. Because of these limitations, transcendence or malleability at the physical level has its own apparent frustrations. 

but you already know sometimes I paint the flowers with neon colors, just for shits & giggles   (the trick is to figure out when its neon and when its natural )

Edited July 11, 2019 by joeblast

[Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, joeblast said:

I'm lazy and enjoy my food too much, but I achieved minute and a half averages before.  Its got more to do with the work you put in as opposed to the little refinements that show their max efficacy after the fundamentals are roted into the muscle memory.

 

That's the whole point of eliminating the airflow-signal to the olfactory nerve and rolling the inhales and exhales into one another, is that it conveys that exact same sense that happens momentarily from those little energy-peaks during meditation where its comfortable to sit with the excess until it burns off a bit and you have to breathe again.  Its really all about the signals generated and the energy consumed by the generation of those signals.  Once that additional energy is there as a matter of regularity and its built upon, that's what forms the basis for samhadi - so those energy boosts and such are signposts along the way, its the sparks off a flint before the fire gets going.

 

Once the endocrine system is fully primed and gung is built and samhadi happens regularly, how can one not be happy - but that really winds up also manifesting the childlike wonder at everything too, where one can look at most things and winds up deriving simple pleasure from their sheer existence.  That becomes more of an ongoing state instead of something that happens momentarily, which eventually gives rise to a contentment.

 

I dont really see it as useful to think of it as limited, shallow, effortful, or unsatisfactory - instead I see it as merely signposts on the way, and all attendant phenomena are experiences to be had and recognized, transcended positively as opposed to thinking the body is a nasty bag of crap that just helps us get from point a to point b.

 

Well said and nicely explained.

[Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, C T said:

 

 

What was inferred was not that the body's a nasty crap receptacle, but a mere vehicle with limitations, and to not over-reach with expectations while holding to an awareness of when to let go of associated dependencies. Because of these limitations, transcendence or malleability at the physical level has its own apparent frustrations. 

I prefer mostly bag of water filled with piss and shit or meat body if you must,  but must confess the nasty crap receptacle is kind of funny too. 

[neti neti]

On 7/11/2019 at 12:45 PM, Pilgrim said:

I prefer mostly bag of water filled with piss and shit or meat body if you must,  but must confess the nasty crap receptacle is kind of funny too. 

 

Hey! Meat body sounds a bit degrading for such a bleeding edge self-healing crap-producing sack of skeleton.

 

I prefer the more neutral yet dignified term, flesh suit. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by neti neti

[Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Hey! Meat body sounds a bit degrading for such a bleeding edge self-healing crap-producing sack of skeleton.

 

I prefer the more neutral yet dignified term, flesh suit. 

If you say so but I ain’t wearing any of it!

[neti neti]

3 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

If you say so but I ain’t wearing any of it!

 

 Omg. I need one of those delivered overnight, no matter the cost.

 

I must wonder though, how much extra breath will it allow one to retain?!

[dwai]

7 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Hey! Meat body sounds a bit degrading for such a bleeding edge self-healing crap-producing sack of skeleton.

 

I prefer the more neutral yet dignified term, flesh suit. 

The flesh suit is only a temporary illusion. It’s a virtual flesh suit. 😇

 

yeah yeah, I know....I’m a party pooper  

Edited July 13, 2019 by dwai

[joeblast]

21 minutes ago, dwai said:

The flesh suit is only a temporary illusion. It’s a virtual flesh suit. 😇

 

yeah yeah, I know....I’m a party pooper  

but it comes with the option* to upgrade! 

 

*some mountains worth of work required

[rideforever]

Just now, joeblast said:

but it comes with the option* to upgrade!

 

That's true.

After all tonight when you go to sleep, another body will open its eyes on the other side of the world get up and start the day.

Does that mean you started the day ? 

No it doesn't.

And when your fleshsuit dies, other bodies will wake up on this planet ... but it will not be you.

As for surviving death ... a fleshsuirt fears no death because it is just the elements changing.

Is there anything else ?

Has anything else been created ?
Has anything else been created that never closes its eyes, and that is not the body ?
If not ... how can anything survive.

Life might go on ... but it will not be your life.

After all, when you see acorns and oak trees, isn't the message clear enough.

It's not important.

 

[neti neti]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The flesh suit is only a temporary illusion. It’s a virtual flesh suit. 😇

 

yeah yeah, I know....I’m a party pooper  

 

Wait... you mean, this isn't really AIR I'm breathing, in this place ??? 

 

 

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Wait... you mean, this isn't really AIR I'm breathing, in this place ??? 

 

 

Depends on which pill you choose  

[Pilgrim]

11 hours ago, neti neti said:

I prefer the more neutral yet dignified term, flesh suit. 

Edited 1 hour ago by neti neti

Well let’s see I forget what color pill does what but after taking a nap and in the dream eating ribs like a wolf and waking up chewing in my sleep I am avoiding the asshole with the pill that leads to slop in a can.

 

Gotta get ribs tonight looking at pictures of meat has awakened the inner cave man!!

[neti neti]

46 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Well let’s see I forget what color pill does what but after taking a nap and in the dream eating ribs like a wolf and waking up chewing in my sleep I am avoiding the asshole with the pill that leads to slop in a can.

 

Gotta get ribs tonight looking at pictures of meat has awakened the inner cave man!!

 

Lol oh well... alright. Sigh... so much for dignity then.

 

Who are we fooling? We're all just smart monkeys anyway, savages with opposable thumbs!

 

For what it's worth, I don't mind the best of both worlds. Purple pill, anyone? Knowledge is power, but uh... 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by neti neti

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Lol oh well... alright. Sigh... so much for dignity then.

 

Who are we fooling? We're all just smart monkeys anyway, savages with opposable thumbs!

 

For what it's worth, I don't mind the best of both worlds. Purple pill, anyone? Knowledge is power, but uh... 

 

😂 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by dwai

[joeblast]

15 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Wait... you mean, this isn't really AIR I'm breathing, in this place ??? 

 

 

its actually a sweet sparkly glowy liquid - when you slow it down enough

[neti neti]

2 hours ago, joeblast said:

its actually a sweet sparkly glowy liquid - when you slow it down enough

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by neti neti

[voidisyinyang]

On 7/11/2019 at 12:47 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

 

This is incorrect. 

Master Nan taught to hold after inhale and Wim Hoff teaches to hold after exhalation AND inhalation. 

I already researched what Master Nan said about breath retention - I've quoted it on this forum. I'll see if it's on my blog.

You are making an assertion without any evidence to back it up.

I just found my blog post. So now I have the evidence to back up my claim.

https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/03/master-nan-huai-chin-on-yuan-qi.html

 

Master Nan taught - his direct quote!

Quote

Let's take as an example the breath the T'ien-tai method calls "blowing." All you have to do is be conscious when the breath is emitted that you don't need to emit any sound. As the breath is exhaled, the lower abdomen naturally sinks in. When the breath is completely blown out to the point that there is no more breath that can be blown out, you must stop the sound. Once the mouth is closed, the nose will naturally draw in the breath. You should do this several times and then stop and listen to the sound.  Listen until breathing and  thoughts are focused: when there are no more miscellaneous thoughts, you will spontaneously empty out.

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Nan-Huai-Chin-To-Realize-Enlightenment.pdf

page 5

and this: Master Nan through bill bodri:

Quote

This is to answer your question on how to reach Samadhi through breathing methods. In doing your practice, do not tie your mind rigidly to the breathing. Only if you want to, then observe the exhaling only, not the inhaling. A big mistake commonly committed by those practicing Qigong is to focus on the inhalation and to try to hold on to it. The truth is just the opposite. For correct practice, one should pay attention to the exhalation, if only for improving the health of the body and mind. The more one releases, the more one relaxes. This is the best of practice.

http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation-techniques/m_pranayama_breath_work_techniques_for_meditation.htm

and this - on the same method Master Nan taught:

Quote

When you reach this state of cessation, then the real chi (kundalini) of the body ignites (rises) and your chi channels start to open.

This is actually the safest and most gentle way to cultivate the Tao. It's the practice of following your breath until it calms down and seems to stop, and then trying to hold onto that state GENTLY after the exhalation. Simply watch your breath and let it calm down. When it stops every now and then, try to STAY in that period of cessation and the longer you can - without breathing -- the more your chi channels will transform.

https://terebess.hu/zen/Gregory-Peter-N-Traditions-of-Meditation-in-Chinese-Buddhism.pdf

I hope that is clear enough. thanks

 

[Cheshire Cat]

And this Master Nan teaching to hold after inhale 

 

 

Minute 2:15, activate English subtitles 

 

Your quotes refers respectively to

 

1-sound of breathing 

2-focus on exhale 

3-a mind state 

 

No actual anapana methods 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Cheshire Cat

[joeblast]

holding the breath at all is silly unless doing something other than anapanasati-breathConditioning-stillness (i.e. not achieving regular samhadi yet and working towards...)

 

you simply dont fully de-link from the identification of the breath process fully - to the extent that there is any pause whatsoever, refer to a piston's motion inside of an engine relative to the crankshaft at the bottom of the stroke while there is the lowest piston-crankshaft angle - the piston sort of pauses its motion even though the crankshaft continues its motion through the bottom of the stroke and into the upside.

 

paying good attention is what burns the pattern into the medulla's subconscious breath programming more efficiently - so by programming no pauses in there, it makes the autonomic effects that much more efficient when they are being relied upon.

 

so I guess perhaps maybe we can differentiate between where breath retention is useful instead of overlapping it with a context of achieving samhadi - because "active" things will not directly produce samhadi.

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by joeblast