Question about breath retention

[voidisyinyang]

13 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

 

2-focus on exhale 

Quote

to focus on the inhalation and to try to hold on to it.The truth is just the opposite.  

 

13 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

oops -someone can't read two sentences?

[voidisyinyang]

13 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

And this Master Nan teaching to hold after inhale 

 

 

Minute 2:15, activate English subtitles 

 

 

Quote

Our breath, it goes out, comes in, a moment ceases in the middle.

i.e. AFTER exhale.

That's the actual Master Nan quote at 1 minute from that video you posted. Thanks for corroborating the other evidence quotes I posted.

 

Quote

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[Cheshire Cat]

7 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

oops -someone can't read two sentences?

 

This is how I read it

 

to focus on the inhalation and to try to hold on to it (the inhalation) .The truth is just the opposite( NOT to focus on the inhalation and to don't hold on to it) (OR to focus on the exhalation). 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

That's the actual Master Nan quote at 1 minute from that video you posted. Thanks for corroborating the other evidence quotes I posted.

 

You point to a quote, I point to another. Why he contradicts himself? Is Master Nan hiding a secret breathing technique for enlightenment? 

Maybe the idea of the practice isn't to hold on a secret moment when the breathing ceases, but to observe the mind ceasing. 

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

This is how I read it

 

to focus on the inhalation and to try to hold on to it (the inhalation) .The truth is just the opposite( NOT to focus on the inhalation and to don't hold on to it) (OR to focus on the exhalation). 

 

 

You point to a quote, I point to another. Why he contradicts himself? Is Master Nan hiding a secret breathing technique for enlightenment? 

Maybe the idea of the practice isn't to hold on a secret moment when the breathing ceases, but to observe the mind ceasing. 

I'm glad you are clarifying how you read it. So we can quote from the vid you posted again. But essentially Master Nan says that at first you can use some force to retain the breath after exhale. 3 mns:

Quote

At first you can use a little force. A little force is fine....Remember you are not breathing. To breathe is to think....At first there will be a little strain.

Then he says the breathing goes away after awhile and with no breathing then there is no mind. So this is called Immortal Breathing in Daoism or also Foetal Breathing - in Vedic hindu yoga (whatever) it's called Nirvikalpa Samadhi. So for true Vipassana you need to achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi or the Emptiness first. So what happens is the body fills with qi so that the body 'breathes" with qi instead of physically breathing. The Qi is able to create whatever chemical or material energy the body needs - water, nutrition, air, etc. Ramana Maharshi states the mind controls the breath - so if you stop the mind then you are stopping the breathing. The key point I am making is that when the breath is held AFTER exhale that activates the vagus nerve (versus after inhale). The Vagus nerve is how the energy is stored up inside the body. So I cite the research in my free training manual linked in my profile below. thanks.

 

So normally the mind - observing the mind on its own - the mind is too weak. In Western medical science it states that a person can not hold their breath till the pass out! Why? Because the anterior cingulate gyrus overrides the prefrontal cortex intention to hold the breath! But if you have strong emotional energy than you can have the jing power to increase the brain power. When I was in first grade I held my breath till I passed out, thereby disproving western science.

Edited July 18, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[Cheshire Cat]

On 18/7/2019 at 11:37 AM, voidisyinyang said:

But essentially Master Nan says that at first you can use some force to retain the breath after exhale

 

No, he doesn't.

 

He says in minute 2:23

 

"Don't force it. [...] In between the IN and OUT breath. OUT, IN, CEASE. As soon as you fix your awareness on that moment, your CHI will feel like that it flows freely [...[

[voidisyinyang]

11 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

No, he doesn't.

 

He says in minute 2:23

 

 

OK I'll repeat the part of my sentence that you ignored.

at first

NOW ARE YOU claiming that I misquoted Master Nan?

Quote

At first you can use a little force. A little force is fine....Remember you are not breathing. To breathe is to think....At first there will be a little strain.

So let's be clear.

You are claiming that the above quote is a lie?

I worked as a professional transcription typist for a law professor.

I also worked as a DEAF phone relay transcriber.

So I'm pretty good at typing out quotes.

Let's type out the WHOLE talk.

Quote

Our breath, the breath, When the air goes out, it is the out breath. When the air comes in it is the in breath. The Sanskrit word, "anapana" out, in cease, 3 phases. Everyone misinterpreted Buddha's sutra. s out, comes in, a moment ceases in the middle...."Don't force it. [...] In between the IN and OUT breath. OUT, IN, CEASE. As soon as you fix your awareness on that moment, your CHI will feel like that it flows freely [...[At first you can use a little force. A little force is fine....Remember you are not breathing. To breathe is to think....At first there will be a little strain.

 

So this is what the two of us have transcribed so far - assuming you did a good job.

 

I'll listen again to make sure.

Then I'll add in the rest.

Oh wait - someone already posted the English translation - must have been my friend in Australia who did the original translation...

 

Quote

Our breath, the breath When the air goes out, it is the out breath When the air comes in, it is the in breath The Sanskirit word "anapana" Out, in, cease 3 phases Pay attention now Everyone misinterpreted Buddha's sutra Out, in, cease 1 out, 1 in. The breath is like life and death It comes and it goes. Try it and see Try it first You can try it and take notes at the same time This is critical to your practice Don't just listen to me brag. Otherwise it's going to be a waste of your time and mine You can keep your eyes open Or keep them closed. Just listen to me and at the same time observe your own breath. Our breath
It goes out, it comes in; A moment ceases in the middle. Out, in; In, out; There exists a gap in the middle That's why I tell you to practise anapana Especially at a night like today It's pretty calm right now It was pretty cold and windy during the day; If
you observe your out breath now Don't observe the in breath; Let it out and observe the moment When your mind ceases That one moment When you are neither breathing in or not Try to find that moment Try it You'll immediately feel it You won't feel cold anymore You won't be the same Please try it and see Am I right? Don't just stare at my face! Your breath is not on my face The breath is yours One out, one in Don't force it Man breathes naturally In between the in and out breath Out, in, cease As soon as you fix your awareness on that moment Your chi will feel like Very briefly That it flows freely You mind has less thoughts and distractions Many people misinterpreted Counting the breath Between the in breath and the
out breath That moment in the middle At first, you can use a little force A little is fine Fix your awareness upon that moment Come back to that moment when everything stops And remember it Remember you are not breathing To breathe is to think That's one This is counting the breath Then you breath out, breath in, and cease Slowly the period of cessation This period becomes longer and longer The second time Count two That's called counting the breath You are counting that Ordinarily, when I say counting the breath Or count the out breath Or count the in breath You only need to count two, three times Or five, six times As long as your mind is focused You just follow the breath and cease That is following the breath
It's very fast Have you understood? Fellow Great Bodhisattvas Do you understand now? Have you really comprehended it? You are all my parents I'm making it clear, fathers and mothers Really, don't waste this opportunity Try it If you really understand, congratulations If you practice wisdom and merit Plus virtuous conduct You'll be on your way Hence, the one that breathes ceases to breath To cease is to rest Rest is the fixation of thoughts Look, there are so many of you That has come to understand this a little Slowly practice like this And you are on your way At first, there might be a little strain
Gradually, it will become natural Okay, if you understand this Tomorrow I will tell you about practicing cessation Especially if you want to practice the Threefold Training If you want supernatural wisdom It's super fast Mr. *** Man Lao read my book "Ru He Xiu Zheng Fo Fa" And pointed out Take a look Buddha taught his son This very method of practice But, everyone read the classic sutra Including these people, don't know how to read it How did Buddha say it? In the Sutta Pitaka, he said a lot about it "Long respiration, long awareness" He taught the Venerable Rahula The Venerable Rahula was
his son Remember, he got his son to be a monk too Buddha's son, the Venerable Rahula Is still alive in this world He didn't die yet Buddha instructed four people To postpone their death To stay in this world First is the Venerable Mahakasyapa Then, Rahula The Venerabel Mahaka And Kundapadhan!iyaka Four Arhats Still not dead Why can they live this long? Why is that? I'll let you go research that on your own Buddha told Rahula "Long respiration, long awareness" "Short respiration, short awareness" Or "cold respiration, cold awareness" "Warm respiration, warm awareness" Everyone who
read this book, this sutra Thinks they understand "Respiration" - I'll let you write it down Everyone thinks it is the breath When the breath is long, you know the breath is long You might think it means to practise Qi Gong (Pretends to do Qi Gong) You thought You made these simple words complicated "Long respiration", one breath out, one breath in Birth and death comes and goes After that, the breath stops When the breath is neither going in or coming out When this moment is long You are aware of long This period goes by in an instant You are aware of short "Long respiration, long awareness"
"Short respiration, short awareness" That's its meaning I'm trying to help you guys understand Do you all understand now? Try it I can't say too much If I say too much, like a plaster seller, my plaster will run out of stock There won't be any left to sell tomorrow But, after the break Practice this method of anapana The result comes very quickly The method will quickly transform your physical and mental temperaments If you practice it with samatha-vipasyana Plus prajna Plus esoterism and Tantra Plus all these various methods, it's going to be very fast

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

11 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

No, he doesn't.

 

He says in minute 2:23

 

"Don't force it. [...] In between the IN and OUT breath. OUT, IN, CEASE. As soon as you fix your awareness on that moment, your CHI will feel like that it flows freely [...[

So I went to the comments of the above vid - to cut and paste the whole transcript to the vid - for others. Then I found this comment:

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“Cessation (止)” Must Cease “After Maximum Exhalation (出息住)”

https://seriousbuddhism.wordpress.com/2017/04/15/hu-song-nian-the-dharma-door/

 

Quote

 

Kiet Tran 4 months ago

I believe it refers to the cessation after the exhalation. That would be consistent with his other instructions I have read. Here's one by a person who studied under him: https://seriousbuddhism.wordpress.com/2017/04/15/hu-song-nian-the-dharma-door/

 

and to read the link:

Quote

However, if this stopping breath happens during maximum exhalation, we call this “Chu Qi Zhu” (出气住). Master Nan repeatedly explained when he was alive, wanting us to especially focus on “Chu Qi Zhu” (meaning stop after exhale) when we are cultivating Chan samadhi. There is a deep principle here.

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[C T]

@ Drew

 

Whats with the large fonts? Reminds me of a Chinese saying, "Using big rock to smash tiny crab." 

Very loud, very abrasive, it appears. Certainly does not reflect well for a long-time follower of Master Nan's teachings. 

Also brings up doubt as to whether you have an experiential understanding of authentic samadhi, or merely compensating for a lack of proper experience, hence the need for exaggerated emphasis. 

 

Its a curious thing alright. 

[Cheshire Cat]

I find it not surprising that Master Nan contradicts himself on certain points (sleep deprivation) , but apparently - and entirely based on the blogpost that drew quoted- it may be that he placed a special emphasis on practicing brief unforced breath retention after the exhalation.

I'm pretty sure that this method isn't described in the anapanasati Sutta. 

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Are we practising swimming underwater? we live in the air of pure energy 90% of our energy comes from breathing otherwise there would be nothing left to eat on earth.

 

Breathing should be pumped by the abdomen slow, long. smooth transitions in and out just like the yin yang symbol. . If your ears can hear your breathing it is being done wrong.

 

I advocate the 9 ways of breathing each has a purpose but retention is a bad word no matter how we put the word retention in a sentence.

[joeblast]

9 hours ago, C T said:

@ Drew

 

Whats with the large fonts? Reminds me of a Chinese saying, "Using big rock to smash tiny crab." 

Very loud, very abrasive, it appears. Certainly does not reflect well for a long-time follower of Master Nan's teachings. 

Also brings up doubt as to whether you have an experiential understanding of authentic samadhi, or merely compensating for a lack of proper experience, hence the need for exaggerated emphasis. 

 

Its a curious thing alright. 

I always chuckle at quibbling over what master's words really were and what they mean, instead of reading things borne of direct experience  

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, C T said:

@ Drew

 

Whats with the large fonts? Reminds me of a Chinese saying, "Using big rock to smash tiny crab." 

Very loud, very abrasive, it appears. Certainly does not reflect well for a long-time follower of Master Nan's teachings. 

Also brings up doubt as to whether you have an experiential understanding of authentic samadhi, or merely compensating for a lack of proper experience, hence the need for exaggerated emphasis. 

 

Its a curious thing alright. 

just because you are projecting a cultural bias onto large fonts in no way impedes my choice to simply use another click option offered on this website. Am I breaking some kind of law? haha. Nice try though. CAPITOL LETTERS IS NOT THE SAME AS SCREAMING DESPITE PEOPLE MAKING SUCH A BIASED ASSUMPTION. Let's play with our perceptual biases why don't we? Maybe that's why I did it - to bring out the inner child in you. have a nice day.

 

For example Burmese as a language does not use any interpersonal pronouns. Does that mean the language is inherently devoid of true subjective qualities? I doubt it. I worked closely with Burmese refugees.

 

Perhaps you'd like to have a discussion about Neoformalism - and the difference between syntax and grammar, etc? Or should we defer to Chuang Tzu that the language of humans is no different than when we listen to the sounds animals make, pondering if they have any conceptual meaning?

 

hahahahah. hahahahahahahahahahahahahah

there I think I made my point.

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, C T said:

 

Also brings up doubt as to whether you have an experiential understanding of authentic samadhi, or merely compensating for a lack of proper experience, hence the need for exaggerated emphasis. 

 

Oh you might be dealing with a defective product here! I'll contact my manufacturer to see if I can get you a full refund!

 

[voidisyinyang]

2 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I'm pretty sure that this method isn't described in the anapanasati Sutta. 

 

 

OH if that's the point you're trying to make - then by all means - have your "point." A lot of people have read the Bible also - and a lot of good it's done them.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, joeblast said:

I always chuckle at quibbling over what master's words really were and what they mean, instead of reading things borne of direct experience  

hey Joe where'd you get that "direct experience"?

 

My point earlier was that my training manual emphasizes that holding breath AFTER EXHALE activates the vagus nerve. So now I've proven that indeed Master Nan, Huai-chin emphasizes holding the breath AFTER EXHALE. The person challenging me also claimed that Wim Hof does not hold the breath AFTER EXHALE. In my experience he DOES teach to hold the breath AFTER EXHALE.

 

Now - we can defer to my training manual for references - from science. I'm talking about discovery the general "principles" that make this stuff work. Not some hazy personal experiences that you had in your closet or something - or even what some misty-eyed hoary great master said in the days of ole. No I'm talking about modern human biological psychophysiological GENERAL PRINCIPLES that are cross-cultural.

 

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It is initiated by flexing the abdominal muscles and extending exhalation (in clinical or laboratory setting by blowing into a balloon), showing a strong similarity with breathing techniques in ContAct. Even further, extending, slowing and holding respiration are all considered vagal maneuvers on their own, stimulating the VN. All of these vagal maneuvers have been shown to slow heart rate (bradycardia). We propose that the breathing exercises of ContAct might be seen as a form of behavioral VNS.

So if my hypothesis is correct then I should be able to find science that corroborates my claim - and I do as the above quote shows.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6189422/

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Thus, the described beneficial effects on health and cognition are predicted to occur more in ContActs with breathing exercises stressing relatively short inhale (SNS controlled) and long exhale (PNS controlled), than in ContActs that do not emphasize this distinction.

For those out of the loop - VN is Vagus Nerve and PNS is Parasympathetic Nervous system. therefore - Crosscultural and scientific and yet - meditation! oops.

 

And by the way - if people want to use my click choice options on this site as their personal excuse to ignore the content of the post - then I do not hold that against them ANYMORE than I hold it against someone for choosing to ignore the content of my posts that use "normal" font sizes and colors, etc. thanks for your understanding in this matter.

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

On 7/11/2019 at 12:47 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

 

This is incorrect. 

Master Nan taught to hold after inhale and Wim Hoff teaches to hold after exhalation AND inhalation. 

 

Quote

 

Then

with the Wim Hof technique from Tummo - holding the

breathing after

exhale, after the Quick Fire breathing -

activates the parasympathetic

nervous system which then is

the "shock" as the extreme dialectical

reversal to store up the

serotonin and electromagnetic energy.

 

So now we can finally move on to your 2nd incorrect assertion with no evidence to back it up. Wim Hof.

Now I'm quoting my training manual.

Quote

Now the final secret is

that Master Nan, Huai-chin teaches it's crucial to hold the breath only after exhale. So then we find Wim Hof

teaching the same secret of holding the breath, only after exhale and, only after first charging up the body doing the

Quick Fire breathing. Dr. Shin Lin at UC-Irvine, documented, using

transcranial Photon Migration Spectroscopy,

a

great increase in brain oxygen from holding the breath after exhale

and after the Quick Fire charge up breathing. So

then we discover from science that holding the breath after exhale activates the parasympathetic nervous system.

Marc Seifer

described the results:

"During normal breathing, the rev

 

and

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Practice of kumbhaka [breath retention after exhale] is necessary while the ejaculation is being held.

and

 

Quote

 

So in Pranayama training first you train so that the exhale is twice as long as the inhale - so exhale can be up to 60

seconds and

then you train in the retention after exhale

:

 

Quote

 

"the breath is held for several seconds after the

exhalation"

 

 

is complete.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[C T]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

just because you are projecting a cultural bias onto large fonts in no way impedes my choice to simply use another click option offered on this website.

 

I think thats exactly the point of experiential insight - knowing the whole spectrum of options, and then exercising discretion, secure in the knowledge of whats appropriate and whats not. In some sense, thats what cultivation means. Unfortunately, your brash tendencies does not reflect well your claim(s) to knowing even basic online etiquette. 

 

You have a nice day too. 

[joeblast]

all them cultural appropriations touchin muh nervez

 

your posts have become noise, Drew.  classic egghead that cant connect with the real world/real people, typing in big red font doesnt get your point across any better than if you succinctly summed things up in a paragraph instead of 16 pages that go into all kinds of detail that stays removed from being much of any practical use - which was where the "posts borne of experience" quip came from, as if the space in between b sharp and f flat is going to help one make gains in cultivation.

Edited July 20, 2019 by joeblast

[voidisyinyang]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

I think thats exactly the point of experiential insight - knowing the whole spectrum of options, and then exercising discretion, secure in the knowledge of whats appropriate and whats not. In some sense, thats what cultivation means. Unfortunately, your brash tendencies does not reflect well your claim(s) to knowing even basic online etiquette. 

 

You have a nice day too. 

So you're not interested in the content topic of the thread? fine with me.

As for "tendencies" based on the FORMAT - as I pointed out certain assertions were made without any kind of evidence to back them up. Then more assertions were made on simply cut/pasting parts of my sentences - which is a nice semantic touch - not too dissimilar from using one of the chosen click fonts seen above. Or maybe it is a bit dissimilar? Maybe cut/pasting PART of a sentence to try to change the meaning is a bit dissimilar than simply highlight part of sentence while leaving the whole sentence intact?

 

It's all a bit too pedantic maybe but as long as said font click options are freely available - then you can be brash about ignoring the content of the thread as much as you want - doesn't bother me.

 

You wanna keep discussing syntax formatting issues as etiquette of a system (the interwebs) created by the US Empire military that is spreading genocide and ecocide on Earth? Nice touch! Silicon Valley has the highest concentration of toxic waste sites leaching into water anywhere in the US. Meanwhile the US military is the number one polluter on the planet - and again it CREATED the interwebs! So social etiquette on the interwebs is quite fascinating. For example if I post images of 2-headed depleted uranium babies on this site then they're gonna get censored BUT I did personally go get arrested to protest against the largest manufacturer of depleted uranium in the world - headquartered in liberal progressive "MN NICE" - twin cities minnesota, US Empire! So maybe protesting to get arrested is not the best "etiquette" while censoring the images of the product of nice friendly etiquette is much more appropriate. Yes the interwebs is kind of confusing I guess but at least we can take comfort that it's all being stored and monitored by the NSA supercomputers.

 

Have a friendly "appropriately" properly formatted reality for you.

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

2 hours ago, joeblast said:

all them cultural appropriations touchin muh nervez

 

your posts have become noise, Drew.  classic egghead that cant connect with the real world/real people, typing in big red font doesnt get your point across any better than if you succinctly summed things up in a paragraph instead of 16 pages that go into all kinds of detail that stays removed from being much of any practical use - which was where the "posts borne of experience" quip came from, as if the space in between b sharp and f flat is going to help one make gains in cultivation.

If you mean me sitting in full lotus at the computer? Yeah it touches the third eye pineal gland nerve! haha.

 

Nice try though.

 

Now - if anyone has anything to say about the content of the thread? I'm flattered by people fixating on me personally just because I've posted clear evidence that proves my point - kind of funny isn't it!

 

Someone posts REAL evidence on thedaobums and suddenly said person is the focus of an ad hominem campaign while said evidence is ignored!

Oh not too surprising I guess.

 

[C T]

A snake in a bamboo can only go one way. 

 

Sigh

[voidisyinyang]

On 7/11/2019 at 12:47 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

Wim Hoff teaches to hold after exhalation AND inhalation. 

OK so now we need to point out that the above statement is not accurate.

 

Quote

 

My First Time Wim Hof Breathing

Two months later, I found myself sitting a hundred yards from the ocean on a warm, breezy Australian afternoon while kind of hyperventilating with my friend and a few of his neighbors.  He told us to breathe in deeply and exhale quickly 30- 40 times.  On the final exhale, we were to breathe comfortably out and then try not to inhale for as long as possible.

 

https://halftheclothes.com/wim-hof-breathing-not-working-try-this/

So that's one example - that corroborates my claim, contrary to the assertion otherwise.

 

 

 

Quote

One thing I do, that I learned reading Scott Carney's What Doesn't Kill You, is to exhale slightly during the breath hold.

so that's the 2nd corroboration of the Wim Hof method as based on holding the breath AFTER EXHALE.

and now the 3rd corroboration:

https://medium.com/working-light/wim-hof-breathing-technique-step-by-step-tutorial-and-beyond-f0f6182a8568

 

Quote

 

Step 4: The Hold

Exhale until you’re comfortable and hold as long as you can.

 

that's good enough CONTENT for me for now.

Anyone want to still claim that the Wim Hof method does NOT teach holding the breath AFTER EXHALE?

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[C T]

Where the content appears crude and loud, often it dampens interest regardless if you were Jesus or Vishnu incarnate. 

[Cheshire Cat]

The proper practice of the Wim Hof method requires to hold the breath with empty lungs at first and then to inhale deeply and hold the breath for about 10 seconds with the lungs full of air... only under those conditions, some "feel good" chemicals are released in the brain. 

 

Therefore, I wrote that Wim Hof teaches to hold the breath after inhalation AND exhalation. 

 

As for Master Nan, I have the impression that he said to hold after exhalation AND inhalation, but giving - in private circles--more emphasis to holding the breath after the exhalation. Also, in the video that I posted he actually said OUT, IN, HOLD (giving emphasis to retention after inhalation). 

 

Those are the points that I made. The fact that Anapanasati doesn't describe kumbhakas was just for developing the discussion a little bit further. 

 

I should also point out that the practice of certain forms of breathing meditation (especially with retention) may cause at times some "internal frictions" with consequent outbursts of excessive anger for futile reasons ... 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Cheshire Cat

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Cheshire Cat said:

The proper practice of the Wim Hof method requires to hold the breath with empty lungs at first and then to inhale deeply and hold the breath for about 10 seconds with the lungs full of air... only under those conditions, some "feel good" chemicals are released in the brain. 

 

OK so now you're making a new assertion with no evidence. So now I'll go back and look for evidence for you - based on the links I already provided.

First link https://halftheclothes.com/wim-hof-breathing-not-working-try-this/

Quote

breathe deeply in and hold 10-15 seconds

yeah so just so you know - the breath retention AFTER EXHALE is to be more like 1 to 2 minutes or longer than 2 minutes! So 10 to 15 seconds compared to 60 seconds? You are claiming that a time period that is only 15% of the after exhale retention is qualitatively the same - 15% at MOST - more like 7%? A "normal" breath rate is about once every FIVE seconds. So for someone meditating to have a breathing rate of once every 10 seconds or 15 seconds?  Sorry - I don't think it's the same at all.  Here is the comments on Reddit about this:

Quote

 

It is more dangerous to hold the breath on an inhale. Our body's have a fail-safe to kick start the breathing before damage has been done. However, this only occurs during breath holding after an exhale as it is related to an increase of CO2 in the body. Holding the inhale will not activate this fail safe, increasing the risk of brain damage from lack of oxygen.

level 1

daniel16056049

2 points · 5 months ago

Remember what the purpose of this last breath hold is:

At the end of the main retention, your blood O2 is very low and your blood CO2 is very high. This is fine (as a temporary stress) and mediates some of the benefits of this breathing technique.

However once you finish with the retention you want to reset the dissolved gas levels in the blood. A very short breath hold (e.g. 2 seconds) wouldn't do much. A 15-second breath hold is more effective. However during a much longer breath hold (e.g. 60 seconds) your blood O2 and CO2 levels would head back down to the levels you had at the beginning (at the end of the long retention, before the subsequent breath hold).

The gas levels would reset by themselves quite quickly so it's not a big deal, but it would be a less effective breathing protocol than if you did 15-20 seconds as suggested by Wim Hof

 

.........................................

 

Quote

 

Therefore, I wrote that Wim Hof teaches to hold the breath after inhalation AND exhalation. 

 

As for Master Nan, I have the impression that he said to hold after exhalation AND inhalation, but giving - in private circles--more emphasis to holding the breath after the exhalation. Also, in the video that I posted he actually said OUT, IN, HOLD (giving emphasis to retention after inhalation). 

 

Now you're claiming Master Nan only states "in private circles" to emphasize holding the breath after exhale. I already posted 3 sources that corroborated my claim otherwise - how could they be private? The video is "private" - it's a private setting. Did he want it broadcast on the interwebs? Who knows - maybe or maybe not. Whether it is "private" or not seems kind of irrelevant. I don't think it was some kind of "indoor" private stipulation that you seem to be implying. The video - as I emphasized - clearly states not to focus the awareness on holding the in breath but rather the out breath. As for the "order" or out, in cease - that appears to be more of just a translation of the word anapana. So as I pointed out at first he says out, in and the cease is in between. And then later he clarifies don't focus on the in breath to cease the breathing. that along with the other quotes I provided should have been sufficient. But you seem fixated rather on some purified sutta reading or something, rather than what Master Nan is teaching.

 

 

Quote

Those are the points that I made. The fact that Anapanasati doesn't describe kumbhakas was just for developing the discussion a little bit further. 

Yeah what the anapanasati is "teaching" (or lack there of) could be another discussion that I'm not really interesting it. I'm focused on the solution.

 

 

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I should also point out that the practice of certain forms of breathing meditation (especially with retention) may cause at times some "internal frictions" with consequent outbursts of excessive anger for futile reasons ... 

 

 

 

Yeah half quoting sentences to try to imply they say something else - that is a noted cause of "internal friction" in the structure of sentences themselves. You seem to be wanting to focus on me instead of the topic at hand. I'm flattered really - but whether I personally practice this type of meditation is something I'll leave  open to question.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by voidisyinyang