Video 5: moving lines and a way to deal with them (1)

[Harmen]

 

[Apech]

Hi,

 

That was very interesting.  One thing I was not sure about though, was that you seem to take the 'imbalance' of the moving line as a negative thing.  But the fullness of the maximum or minimum state, like a full moon or the summer solstice, while it does indicate there is only one way to go i.e. decrease ... surely this is still part of the natural flow of things and not necessarily negative. ???

[Harmen]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

Hi,

 

That was very interesting.  One thing I was not sure about though, was that you seem to take the 'imbalance' of the moving line as a negative thing.  But the fullness of the maximum or minimum state, like a full moon or the summer solstice, while it does indicate there is only one way to go i.e. decrease ... surely this is still part of the natural flow of things and not necessarily negative. ???

 

You are right. What I show in the video is how I began to see changing lines and changing trigrams  when I tried to find a way to put them to use - that too much of yin or yang imbalance the trigrams, made them larger and exaggerate their qualities. After more than 35 years of studying the Yijing I find it very hard to let go of this view. But as you show this is not the only way to look at it. The aim of the video is to show my viewers that trigrams can change and that this change has meaning. How this change can be interpreted is an interesting journey to explore and I would like to encourage every Yijing user to do that.

[OldDog]

Well. This particular lesson in your series leaves me dumbfounded. I will probably have to listen to it a few more times, as well as review some earlier lessons. The consequences of this lesson are telling me I did not fully appreciate earlier lessons. So, I will review.

 

One of the things I find as troubling is that, in your discussion of changing lines and balance, there seems to be an element of judgement that I am not grasping. I never thought of trigrams as having positive or negative qualities ... just qualities. That seems judgemental, which would suggest relative to some point of view. But I think I am beginning to see the point about relative yin-ness or yang-ness quality of lines and their stability ...  or balance as you call it. I have to do some more study on this.

 

I do appreciate the consistency of your explanations of the trigrams. There is a certain cohesivness to your approach that I find compelling. Thanks!

[Harmen]

33 minutes ago, OldDog said:

One of the things I find as troubling is that, in your discussion of changing lines and balance, there seems to be an element of judgement that I am not grasping. I never thought of trigrams as having positive or negative qualities ... just qualities. That seems judgemental, which would suggest relative to some point of view. But I think I am beginning to see the point about relative yin-ness or yang-ness quality of lines and their stability ...  or balance as you call it. I have to do some more study on this.

 

Good idea :-) No doubt there are other ways to look at moving lines and what they do to trigrams. The main goal of my video is to stimulate the viewers to look at changing trigrams instead of solely looking at changing hexagrams and moving lines as individual entities that don't have any relationship with other parts of the hexagram. 

[OldDog]

42 minutes ago, Harmen said:

No doubt there are other ways to look at moving lines and what they do to trigrams. The main goal of my video is to stimulate the viewers to look at changing trigrams instead of solely looking at changing hexagrams and moving lines as individual entities that don't have any relationship with other parts of the hexagram. 

 

I am convinced that understanding the movement is important, as you point out. And I like the focus on the trigrams. It seems understanding is best developed from basic elements up ... lines, trigrams, hexagram ... yin-yang, heaven-earth, stabilit-instability ... trigrams, upper-lower, inner-outer ... then on to hexagram. So I am interested in your next lesson ... presumably about the line positions.

 

A thought crossed my mind as I was listening to the discussion on stable-unstable lines in the example of the trigrams. The qualities of those trigrams brought to mind people that I know that exhibit those qualities as part of their personality-makeup. Is there any tradition for using trigrams or hexagrams to describe the makeup of people or places? Don't know why that might be important. Just a thought.

[Lost in Translation]

Your observation of changing lines forming an "unbalance" within the individual trigrams (minute 14 in the video) is excellent! This idea had never occurred to me before... Thank you for sharing your insight. This is very good.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Lost in Translation

[Harmen]

41 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

A thought crossed my mind as I was listening to the discussion on stable-unstable lines in the example of the trigrams. The qualities of those trigrams brought to mind people that I know that exhibit those qualities as part of their personality-makeup. Is there any tradition for using trigrams or hexagrams to describe the makeup of people or places? Don't know why that might be important. Just a thought.

 

Yes, the Heluo Lishu 河洛理數 manuscript contains descriptions of hexagrams as character traits or persons. It has been translated by W.Sherrill & Chu as The Astrology of I Ching. I don't entirely agree with the way they treated the manuscript but the part with the descriptions of the hexagrams is more or less okay.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Important to know changes in terms of YinYang.

 

Yang is movement, Yin is stasis. This means all growth and movement is Yang.

 

And look at changes in the Bagua.

 

I Ching people see is based on Later Heaven Bagua - Lo Shu.

 

Lo Shu is based on the movements of the stars in the Big Dipper around ecliptic pole.

 

And has Wu Xing changes "retrofit" into it. So study reversals and changes in Wu Xing first.

 

So these movements must be understood and kept in mind looking at I Ching changes.

 

If full understanding of these is missing, then I Ching is more "mysterious".

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, Harmen said:

Heluo Lishu 河洛理數 manuscript contains descriptions of hexagrams as character traits or persons.

 

Might be worth a look. I am not particularly interested in astrology but would be interested to see how they approach it. I am largely interested in the mechanics of change ... the dynamics of the trigrams and hexagrams.

 

I have long believed that the transformations in the hexagrams is important and suspected that other disciplines could map onto the hexagrams and use the transformations as a guide to understanding the discipline. I know that is a bit out there ... and I have been slapped back a couple of times for that view ... but it persists in the back of my mind.

 

Thanks, I'll continue to watch.

[Apech]

My approach to understanding moving lines is from the basis that by combining yin and yang in pairs you get four types of lines.  Old yang (yang/yang), old yin (yin/yin), young yang (yang/yin) and young yin (yin/ yang).

 

If you take an example from nature like the phases of the moon.  The full moon would be represented by the old yang - moving line, and the new moon by the old yin - moving line.  Realistically an full moon last just one day or at a stretch three days to notice the difference, same with the new moon where you get an old crescent, a dark moon and then a new crescent - so that's six days out of the 28 day lunar cycle.  This leaves 22 days divided into 11 waxing and 11 waning.

 

So the moving old yin and old yang lines refer to a short lived maximum or minimum phase - while the young lines refer to a more apparently stable period of growing light or decreasing light.  However it is a fact that changing is occurring all through the cycle - it is just not as apparent because the at the maximum and minimum there is a reversal while in the waxing an waning phases it is very similar day on day for 11 days.

 

Another example would be a sine wave with very obvious peaks and troughs - in between a slow climb up and a slow climb down.  Although the rate of change is actually constant - the apparent change at the extremes is much more obvious.

 

Hope this makes sense

 

 

[Harmen]

6 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Might be worth a look. I am not particularly interested in astrology but would be interested to see how they approach it. I am largely interested in the mechanics of change ... the dynamics of the trigrams and hexagrams.

 

I have long believed that the transformations in the hexagrams is important and suspected that other disciplines could map onto the hexagrams and use the transformations as a guide to understanding the discipline. I know that is a bit out there ... and I have been slapped back a couple of times for that view ... but it persists in the back of my mind.

 

Thanks, I'll continue to watch.

 

Actually the book has nothing to do with astrology - it is just called that because the result is somewhat similar to a horoscope. See attachment :-)

The_Astrology_of_I_Ching_-_Sherrill-Chu.pdf

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

My approach to understanding moving lines is from the basis that by combining yin and yang in pairs you get four types of lines.  Old yang (yang/yang), old yin (yin/yin), young yang (yang/yin) and young yin (yin/ yang).

 

If you take an example from nature like the phases of the moon.  The full moon would be represented by the old yang - moving line, and the new moon by the old yin - moving line.  Realistically an full moon last just one day or at a stretch three days to notice the difference, same with the new moon where you get an old crescent, a dark moon and then a new crescent - so that's six days out of the 28 day lunar cycle.  This leaves 22 days divided into 11 waxing and 11 waning.

 

So the moving old yin and old yang lines refer to a short lived maximum or minimum phase - while the young lines refer to a more apparently stable period of growing light or decreasing light.  However it is a fact that changing is occurring all through the cycle - it is just not as apparent because the at the maximum and minimum there is a reversal while in the waxing an waning phases it is very similar day on day for 11 days.

 

Another example would be a sine wave with very obvious peaks and troughs - in between a slow climb up and a slow climb down.  Although the rate of change is actually constant - the apparent change at the extremes is much more obvious.

 

Hope this makes sense

 

 

 

Hmmm...somewhat. I'm curious how you apply this in the application of the Yijing. Do you have a RL example?

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Harmen said:

 

Hmmm...somewhat. I'm curious how you apply this in the application of the Yijing. Do you have a RL example?

 

 

Say you are planning a birthday party.  The yang phase would be the planning and build up to the great day - putting energy in to make arrangements, buy presents, inviting guests and so on.  The day itself is the most energetic (old yang) but short lived and followed by the recovery period which would be the yin phase.

 

Not a great example but the best I can do off the top of my head

 

 

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

Say you are planning a birthday party.  The yang phase would be the planning and build up to the great day - putting energy in to make arrangements, buy presents, inviting guests and so on.  The day itself is the most energetic (old yang) but short lived and followed by the recovery period which would be the yin phase.

 

Not a great example but the best I can do off the top of my head

 

 

 

Good example, makes sense. Although what you describe also makes me think of another 'activity', from a male perspective, including foreplay and all that...

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Harmen said:

 

Good example, makes sense. Although what you describe also makes me think of another 'activity', from a male perspective, including foreplay and all that...

 

And short lived at the most enjoyable moment?

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

And short lived at the most enjoyable moment?

 

Oh yeah. 

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

1 hour ago, Harmen said:

The_Astrology_of_I_Ching_-_Sherrill-Chu.pdf

 

Typical western stuff.

 

That book isn't really accurate.

 

The generalizations it produces are the issue with further understanding change in I Ching.

 

Look back at parts about the Bagua, and about Wu Xing. 

 

Stuff is missing.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Typical western stuff.

 

That book isn't really accurate.

 

The generalizations it produces are the issue with further understanding change in I Ching.

 

Look back at parts about the Bagua, and about Wu Xing. 

 

Stuff is missing.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I know it is not a complete translation of the original 河洛理數 manuscript and that the authors made significant changes to certain parts of the original material (which motivated me to wrote my own book about 河洛理數) but that does not mean this book is 'typical Western stuff'. Concerning accuracy: when you know your 八字 you can convert them to the 先天 and 後天 hexagram using this book. From there 'accuracy' is determined not by the book but by the user who applies the principles that are described. And the descriptions of the hexagrams are a fair translation of the Chinese original.

 

But maybe you can be more specific why you take issue with this book.

[vonkrankenhaus]

4 minutes ago, Harmen said:

But maybe you can be more specific why you take issue with this book.

 

Sure.

 

Workings of YinYang is not detailed. That is primary to everything else.

 

What is Qi? Book doesn't really show.

 

Source of Wu Xing is not detailed.

 

Source of Bagua is not detailed.

 

Working of Wu Xing in Bagua is not really detailed.

 

Without details, reader is making "leaps" without facts.

 

And so some mistaken statements do scatter here and there throughout.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Workings of YinYang is not detailed. That is primary to everything else.

 

Yin & Yang do not have any function in 河洛理數 (unless you can show me where it is explained in the original manuscript)

 

2 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

What is Qi? Book doesn't really show.

 

Qi is not mentioned in 河洛理數 (unless you can show me where it is explained in the original manuscript)

 

3 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Source of Wu Xing is not detailed.

 

Why should it? The 河洛理數 book doesn't either.

 

4 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Source of Bagua is not detailed.

 

Why should it? The 河洛理數 book doesn't either. But maybe you can be more specific. What do you mean by 'source'? Otherwise said, what exactly were you expect to see covered in the book?

 

I agree that there are certain chapters in the 河洛理數 book of which a translation would have been helpful, especially the parts that cover the ten auspicious and inauspicious factors, as well as the chapter on the meaning of the Heavenly & Earthly numbers, Yuan Qi 元氣, Yuan Qi Xiang Fan 元氣相反, Hua Gong 化工 and Hua Gong Fan 化工反. But your vague statements make it sound as if you are not at all familiar with 河洛理數. I am well aware that the book of Sherrill & Chu has its flaws but as an introduction in to the original system, especially for someone who is interested in hexagrams as descriptions of persons & personalities, it will do.

[vonkrankenhaus]

I'm not meaning the specific book, but the subject matter.

 

I mean ability to use the book to understand the subjects detailed in it.

 

This one book is missing stuff that one would need to understand in order to understand this book.

This effects the translation and interpretation.

 

I hope that is more clear. Those aspects I mentioned are necessary to understand topics of that book, but are not in it.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[vonkrankenhaus]

6 hours ago, Harmen said:

Yin & Yang do not have any function

 

When you see "Sillness" or "Movement" - this is YinYang.

 

"The stillness and movement will react so,,," means YinYang.

 

YinYang means "Polarity". 

 

No Polarity = No Movement.

 

What is the movement?

 

Qi is movement between the poles in any polarity.

 

This is what the lines are about, and the reversal at the extreme, etc.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[OldDog]

I feel strongly both ways.

 

When Harmen talks about a line being out of balance, I hear that as the dynamic of yin-yang, for lack of a better set of terms. Apech's point ( ...  that by combining yin and yang in pairs you get four types of lines. ) is how I originally learned to understand yin-yang and seems to fit Harmen's notion of line balance. But balance is a tricky concept. It suggests the midpoint at being balanced and stable, which may or may not be the case. Apech's view allows for range of balance point, if you will, that supports the notion of a continuum of movement within a line. So, that to say that a line is unbalanced or unstable is a recognition that the movement is ready to revert. ... that the compelementary as aspect is nascent.

 

I don't see any conflict at all. And it is not necessary to explicitly cite yin-yang for it to be applicable.

[vonkrankenhaus]

3 hours ago, OldDog said:

balance is a tricky concept

 

YinYang is not about balance or stasis.

 

WuJi is "No Polarity". That's what "Balance" is - no polarity.

 

TaiJi is "Extreme Polarity" - so this is about polarity and difference, even as exhibited by a single thing.

 

Moving happens in polarities, not in Stasis or Balance or Nothing.

 

Qi is that Movement, any Movement in any Polarity.

 

Balance = No Movement, No Qi.

 

Not understanding TaiJi and YinYang is not understanding the 4 Emblems, which is not understanding Bagua, which is not understanding I Ching. Also Wu Xing.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus