Michael Sternbach Posted July 20, 2019 Hey Bums, In part one we we started looking at the legendary lost island of Atlantis - based especially on Plato's classical description. We talked about its possible location, the environment it supposedly existed in, its development, achievements, and eventual demise. Surely there would still be infinitely more to say about all that, and - no doubt - I as well as others will come back to that topic as we see fit. However, at this time, I would like to take a closer look at the influence that Atlantis - as the most advanced civilization of its time it is portrayed as - may have exerted on other places and cultures. For according to so many sources, some groups of Atlanteans left the island before or at the time of its destruction, settled in various locations and passed on their knowledge to the local natives. The most prominent variation of this theory concerns ancient Egypt, a rather loaded topic that invariably leads to endless debates. Unfortunately, we will have to come back to it nevertheless - in due time! However, on the opposite side of the Atlantic, we still find the monumental buildings, the mythology and indeed the living descendants of an ancient civilization noted for "the most sophisticated and highly developed writing system in pre-Columbian Americas - as well as for its art, architecture, mathematics, calendar, and astronomical system" (Wikipedia): The Maya of Central America. Not only had they reached a similar level of cultural development like the ancient Egyptians, they also shared so many particular traits with them that it does not seem far-fetched to assume that both had the same mother civilization standing at their cradle. Again, "America's greatest psychic" Edgar Cayce made some intriguing statements for us to consider. According to the sleeping prophet, around the time of the final destruction of Atlantis (which he set at about 10.500 BC, not far removed from the date of the cataclysmic comet impact that we now know ended the Ice Age), an Atlantean called Iltar entered the Mexican Yucatan with a group of some ten people and erected some temples, one of which actually contained "a hall of records of Atlantis". However, these first temples "were destroyed at the period of change physically in the contours of the land." Alright, let's stop for a moment to think... Is this at all plausible? Well, we know that at the end of the Ice Age, when the glaciers melted, a considerable land mass was submerged in the Yucatan area (much as what happened in the Bahamas archipelago as we have seen already in my previous Atlantis thread). So yes, that alone could explain why we are not likely to find any buildings extant from those early times, unless (perhaps) we go diving in the right places. What else has academic science to tell us? For instance this: Submerged caves near Tulum in the Mexican state of Quintana Roo, on the Yucatan peninsula, contain a diverse megafaunal assemblage of latest Pleistocene age. Abundant coeval prehistoric evidence (e.g., hearths with burned bones, artifacts) indicates that human settlement in the region also reaches back to the end of the Pleistocene. Among the highlights of our ongoing multidisciplinary research are three human skeletons of preceramic age, 70-90 percent complete and mostly articulated. These corpses, which skeletized in situ, appear to have been intentionally buried at a time when the caves were still dry, i.e., prior to the early-Holocene rise of sea level. The three individuals are the oldest skeletons found so far in southeastern Mexico and are among the oldest known from the American continent. González et al: The Arrival of Humans on the Yucatan Peninsula: Evidence from Submerged Caves in the State of Quintana Roo https://www.researchgate.net/publication/310750546_The_arrival_of_humans_on_the_Yucatan_Peninsula_Evidence_from_submerged_caves_in_the_state_of_Quintana_Roo_Mexico There you have it. Once again, it can be said that Cayce was nothing short of being... prophetic! Dear Atlantis aficionados and critics alike - I am looking forward to whatever you may have to contribute to this thread! Just one request: Let's try to stay on topic please. Which is evidence and hypotheses regarding a supposed Atlantean influence on the prehistoric Americas. So anything pertaining to Atlantis per se (as long as more or less in line with Plato) would better placed in part 1 of my little project: Whereas for conceptions about Atlantean influence on Egypt, the Celts and so forth, I propose to open up especially dedicated threads in the future. Alright. Let's have some fun with this now... Michael 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 20, 2019 My thinking has been there have been several Atlantis type civilizations. Great sea faring city states, advanced for there time, that came, traded and were destroyed by natural phenomena (or not so natural). Leaving evidence in language, genes, plants.. things like the 'cocaine/nicotine' mummies point to very early trade and cross culture of a civilizations that traded but didn't conquer or create colonies. China in the 15th century could have easily passed into Atlantis status because it was so advanced, came, then left without much trace when the old emperor who created a mega fleet died and his successor let it rot. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 20, 2019 Back on the horse Sterny ? 'Several Atlantis types civilisations ' . I wonder what stimulated that tpe of 'my thinking' ? We could say all civilisations are 'Atlantis type civilisations' when we postulate that Atlantis spread civilisations and technology . Some say aliens did that . Proof ? Well, lookit all the alien technology all around us today ! Cocaine mummies .... psssht . Thats already been debunked here long ago ( and debunked all over the place as well ) . Still, like a lot of these type of subjects, that won't matter a bit will it . Its all about what people want to believe . ... or are trying to prove Now, for starters ; 1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said: In part one we we started looking at the legendary lost island of Atlantis - based especially on Plato's classical description. So, does that mean in this part you are NOT going off Plato's descriptions ? 1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said: However, at this time, I would like to take a closer look at the influence that Atlantis - as the most advanced civilization of its time it is portrayed as - may have exerted on other places and cultures. For according to so many sources, some groups of Atlanteans left the island before or at the time of its destruction, settled in various locations and passed on their knowledge to the local natives. Did Plato detail that ? If not I guess we are NOT going off his descriptions but have entered the realm of Donellyian Atlantis , yes ? 1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said: The most prominent variation of this theory concerns ancient Egypt, a rather loaded topic that invariably leads to endless debates. Unfortunately, we will have to come back to it nevertheless - in due time! Cant wait. Those posts will be full of interesting 'history' .... anyway , I hope THIS one goes better for you (and those old school , old fashioned Theosophical / Cayce 'types' ) . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 21, 2019 3 hours ago, thelerner said: My thinking has been there have been several Atlantis type civilizations. Great sea faring city states, advanced for there time, that came, traded and were destroyed by natural phenomena (or not so natural). Leaving evidence in language, genes, plants.. things like the 'cocaine/nicotine' mummies point to very early trade and cross culture of a civilizations that traded but didn't conquer or create colonies. Yes, I share your view that there have been several civilisations that had parallels with Atlantis in one way or another. There are IMO good reasons to assume at least the existence of Hyperborea and of Lemuria (Mu) in addition to the Atlantic island. Possibly that's just the tip of the ice berg, though... How can we even be sure that our ideas about the age, evolutionary stages and routes of dissemination of our species are adequate? Anthropologists are divided regarding the correct views, theories keep shifting, and we just don't know what we don't know. 3 hours ago, thelerner said: China in the 15th century could have easily passed into Atlantis status because it was so advanced, came, then left without much trace when the old emperor who created a mega fleet died and his successor let it rot. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 21, 2019 I'm thinking of starting 3 more threads on Atlantis. I like the affect they have on Nuns. 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Back on the horse Sterny ? Never got off its back, Nungers! It's just that I sometimes get carried away by it for awhile, and I generally don't even try to bring it back on track as long as I haven't learned what it is going to show me. Quote 'Several Atlantis types civilisations ' . I wonder what stimulated that tpe of 'my thinking' ? We could say all civilisations are 'Atlantis type civilisations' when we postulate that Atlantis spread civilisations and technology . Some say aliens did that . Proof ? Well, lookit all the alien technology all around us today ! Cocaine mummies .... psssht . Thats already been debunked here long ago ( and debunked all over the place as well ) . Still, like a lot of these type of subjects, that won't matter a bit will it . Its all about what people want to believe . ... or are trying to prove The jury is still out on that. Quote Now, for starters ; So, does that mean in this part you are NOT going off Plato's descriptions ? Did Plato detail that ? If not I guess we are NOT going off his descriptions but have entered the realm of Donellyian Atlantis , yes ? Astonishingly enough, Plato referred to "the continent on the other side of the Atlantic" and added that Atlantis and the islands it had under its control could be used as stopovers on one's way to that other side, but he did not talk specifically about Atlantean settlers on the American continent. So yes, I depend on other sources for that which for me include a cautious use of the clairvoyant information provided by Cayce (repeatedly proven quite accurate) as well as archaeological, mythological, geological and anthroposophical evidence. Moreover - as I was trying to explain previously - already in the first thread Plato's conception of Atlantis was presented as a baseline rather than as a restriction. E.g., Cayce's Atlantis is quite in accordance with Plato's version as it is of a similar layout (especially as regards its extensive irrigation system); it is also located in the Atlantic ocean; and existed to about the same date as Plato's (in fact, Cayce may be somewhat more precise here as his date more closely approaches the comet impact that triggered the glacial meltdown which may well have lead to the submergence of the Atlantic isle). This was not least intended to keep the topic clear off claims locating Atlantis in the Mediterranean, Helgoland, Legoland or your neighbour's swimming pool. Remember that we still have Lois' old Atlantis thread as a collecting basin for all of the above... Quote Cant wait. Those posts will be full of interesting 'history' Indeed. And trust me, I will keep my Atlantean death ray cannon ready as well as my Atlantean granite cutting disk saw - just in case that some of that history needs to be backed up with some practical demonstration... Quote .... anyway , I hope THIS one goes better for you (and those old school , old fashioned Theosophical / Cayce 'types' ) . Oh, I have no complaints whatsoever about the previous one! Despite some participants that, after reading a book or two on a topic, like to think of themselves as leading experts in the field, qualified to castigating others by their sarcastic remarks. As a matter of fact, I learned more than a few things from the thread and it seems like at the same time I was able to share some information that others found worthwhile. Moreover, I got some positive feedback from third-party readers, so there was little left to wish for, really. That being said, I reiterate that that thread is by no means 'complete' yet. E.g., not much has been said about the structure of the Atlantean capital so far. But isn't it the beauty of of a forum like this one that topics can be dug up and elaborated on as participants see fit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted July 21, 2019 I read Hancock's 'America Before' which was quite a good read. It is part ancient history, part travelogue, part rather wild theorising. What is clear is that there are anomalies in the current understanding to history of the Americas/ human history in general which need to be explained. And when they are explained the standard model of human history will probably need a major reevaluation. Things that seem clear to me at any rate so far from reading what is available: 1. Human (and def. hominid) history is a lot older than previously thought. 2. Ancient humans far from being ignorant savages were capable of sophisticated thought, trade, stone working and some form of social organisation. 3. More advanced stone working techniques seem to be universal at earlier times - followed by decline into historical period. 4. The similarities of the stone working across the world may suggest very early sea-going maritime culture. 5. The evidence for a Younger Dryas catastrophe (comet impact) seems to be growing and becoming more certain. 6. There are a number of anomalies in human history which need to be explained - e.g. Australasian DNA in Amazon tribes. 7. American history seems particularly obscured - possibly as result of catastrophic devastation. As per Atlantis as an 'advanced' civilisation - apart from tubular drills, circular saws and some kind of liquid polishing techniques in ancient stones, where is the evidence for advanced technology? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Apech said: I read Hancock's 'America Before' which was quite a good read. It is part ancient history, part travelogue, part rather wild theorising. What is clear is that there are anomalies in the current understanding to history of the Americas/ human history in general which need to be explained. And when they are explained the standard model of human history will probably need a major reevaluation. Things that seem clear to me at any rate so far from reading what is available: 1. Human (and def. hominid) history is a lot older than previously thought. 2. Ancient humans far from being ignorant savages were capable of sophisticated thought, trade, stone working and some form of social organisation. 3. More advanced stone working techniques seem to be universal at earlier times - followed by decline into historical period. 4. The similarities of the stone working across the world may suggest very early sea-going maritime culture. 5. The evidence for a Younger Dryas catastrophe (comet impact) seems to be growing and becoming more certain. 6. There are a number of anomalies in human history which need to be explained - e.g. Australasian DNA in Amazon tribes. 7. American history seems particularly obscured - possibly as result of catastrophic devastation. As per Atlantis as an 'advanced' civilisation - apart from tubular drills, circular saws and some kind of liquid polishing techniques in ancient stones, where is the evidence for advanced technology? As it happens, I read Hancock's latest book too. I think you summarised/posed some really fundamental questions and conclusions. As to the highlighted part, this raises the question how we define advanced technology in the first place. It is conceivable that ancient civilisations found practical solutions for certain problems and tasks which are quite different from our current understanding of technology. We may hardly be able to recognize them as 'technology', yet they get the job done that they are meant for. For instance, many people have been doing experiments and making observation in regards to 'pyramid energies'. As anybody with sufficient 'subtle perception' can tell you, these 'energies' are real enough and have definitive effects, however, they exist quite outside the scope of mainstream science and technology. Maybe as our knowledge of quantum physics and how it relates to other disciplines progresses, we will regain an understanding of what some ancient civilisations were aware of long ago. In other words, some ancient technologies would seem to provide answers to questions that we (at any rate, most of us) haven't even asked yet! As a fairly diligent student of what is sometimes called the occult sciences, I see many examples for ancient civilisations demonstrating an advanced understanding of those. Much of that naturally escapes the attention of the average academic researcher, albeit some of it has been recognized and commented on by modern occultists such as Schwaller de Lubicz. It stands to reason that much of that information once formed part of a comprehensive knowledge belonging to a 'lost civilisation', passed on in bits and pieces to various descendants. The latter then tend to exhibit sometimes astonishing parallels, allowing conclusions as to their common cultural heritage. Aforementioned Schwaller de Lubicz stated this in regards to the ancient Egyptian and Mesoamerican civilisations respectively. Moreover, we do see 'technological' applications of that kind of knowledge both in past and present, e.g. in the fields of agriculture, medicine, even in the raising of consciousness. Some of these methods may present themselves as innovations, while in truth they are revivals or rediscoveries of methods already found in time immemorial. As Aristotle put it: There is nothing new under the stars... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) One of the most mysterious archaeological sites in Mesoamerica is an ancient city some 50 kilometers from Mexico City. We still don't know who exactly built it. The Aztecs found it abandoned since hundreds of years; awestruck, they called it Teotihuacan or "Birthplace of the Gods". The most impressive feature of this city (by the way, the biggest one of its time in the Western hemisphere) are three pyramids which are strangely reminiscent of the Giza plateau. The Aztecs called them the Pyramid of the Sun, the Pyramid of the Moon, and the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl. With a width of 230 meters at its the base, the Pyramid of the Sun is exactly equivalent to the Great Pyramid of Giza, however, it is (almost precisely) half as high as the latter. The Pyramid of the Moon and the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl ("Feathered Serpent") are of smaller dimensions. As one of these three buildings is somewhat offset relative to a line connecting the two others, their alignment is reminiscent of the Giza plateau too. Adding to the similarities is a system of tunnels and chambers located under the pyramids. https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-americas/descending-underworld-teotihuacan-labyrinthine-tunnels-and-rivers-mercury-021401 Of particular interest are the huge amounts of quicksilver found under the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl, forming lakes and rivers in miniature. With them, numerous metallic spheres and other objects have been excavated. Quetzalcoatl was the patron god of the Aztec priesthood, of learning and kniwledge. He was said to have invented books and the calendar. In so many ways, he resembles Thoth and Hermes Trismegistos respectively, the deified cultural hero of the ancient Egyptians. Edited July 21, 2019 by Michael Sternbach 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 21, 2019 18 hours ago, thelerner said: I'm thinking of starting 3 more threads on Atlantis. I like the affect they have on Nuns. Cool. Any attempts to back up your religious beliefs and hopes and dreams by twisting or misquoting or misrepresenting any of the sciences like archaeology, geology etc. shall be run through the Nungali research centre and you will be be busted for any lies and BS . ... and arrested too ! Busted and arrested by the Nungali Anti New Age , BS and Woo Woo Squad ! ( NANABSAWWS ) .... This post bought to you by ~ Nanabsawws ~ Of course, if you want to just rant about cool beliefs and 'supposin' and NOT try to prove it with science ...... thou shalt not be chastised . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Apech said: I read Hancock's 'America Before' which was quite a good read. It is part ancient history, part travelogue, part rather wild theorising. What is clear is that there are anomalies in the current understanding to history of the Americas/ human history in general which need to be explained. And when they are explained the standard model of human history will probably need a major reevaluation. Yeah! There are anomalies in the current understanding to history ... and a whole lot of other stuff . That is what happens when ongoing research continues . At present the whole pre colonial history of Australia is being re written . ( see; 'First Footprints ' , ''The Biggest Estate on Earth' and 'Dark Emu' . I have been involved in international debate on this subject for two years -on history forum. The subject was howled down 2 years ago and in 'controversial history' , now its moved up into the normal history forum. people are still protecting, but too late now ; a short version of dark Emu is out, for children and has just been accepted as part of the school geography curriculum, new generations of Australian will grow up learning a fuller and more accurate history. Science is based on what we have found ... who knows what we might find find in the future ? Even Sterny's Atlantis Quote Things that seem clear to me at any rate so far from reading what is available: 1. Human (and def. hominid) history is a lot older than previously thought. Yep. They keep pushing back the dates for people first in Australia , as they make more finds. I just started 'Sapiens ' https://www.booktopia.com.au/sapiens-yuval-noah-harari/prod9780099590088.html - interesting . Quote 2. Ancient humans far from being ignorant savages were capable of sophisticated thought, trade, stone working and some form of social organisation. yep. And the ignorant modern humans are starting to realise that Quote 3. More advanced stone working techniques seem to be universal at earlier times - followed by decline into historical period. Stone was everything back then ... it was the 'Stone Age' in many ways . Stone was it ! Everything (except stuff made from wood ) . Each type had special properties and usages . You could also make a nice set of drawers and dresser out of it . If you look at some Egyptian carving on walls, it is very fine work. yet later, when metal tools where used more, the quality isnt as good; form can shw lack of continuance as it passes from one block to another . Quote 4. The similarities of the stone working across the world may suggest very early sea-going maritime culture. Or similarities are formed by necessity and quality of materials . But early sea going must have existed ; the eraly dates for Australian settlement are BEFORE the ice age and lower sea levels .. Quote 5. The evidence for a Younger Dryas catastrophe (comet impact) seems to be growing and becoming more certain. and smaller similar type events between them as well. - Tibetan Plateau - eastern central Asian civilisations decline , etc . Quote 6. There are a number of anomalies in human history which need to be explained - e.g. Australasian DNA in Amazon tribes. ? Thats easy to explain . But I won't explain it here ... what would I know , I'm just a guy that 'read a few books ' Quote 7. American history seems particularly obscured - possibly as result of catastrophic devastation. Some of it is real 'scabby' Quote As per Atlantis as an 'advanced' civilisation - apart from tubular drills, circular saws and some kind of liquid polishing techniques in ancient stones, where is the evidence for advanced technology? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_L._Donnelly Edited July 21, 2019 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 21, 2019 4 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: One of the most mysterious archaeological sites in Mesoamerica is an ancient city some 50 kilometers from Mexico City. We still don't know who exactly built it. The Aztecs found it abandoned since hundreds of years; awestruck, they called it Teotihuacan or "Birthplace of the Gods". The most impressive feature of this city (by the way, the biggest one of its time in the Western hemisphere) are three pyramids which are strangely reminiscent of the Giza plateau. The Aztecs called them the Pyramid of the Sun, the Pyramid of the Moon, and the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl. With a width of 230 meters at its the base, the Pyramid of the Sun is exactly equivalent to the Great Pyramid of Giza, however, it is (almost precisely) half as high as the latter. The Pyramid of the Moon and the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl ("Feathered Serpent") are of smaller dimensions. As one of these three buildings is somewhat offset relative to a line connecting the two others, their alignment is reminiscent of the Giza plateau too. Adding to the similarities is a system of tunnels and chambers located under the pyramids. https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-americas/descending-underworld-teotihuacan-labyrinthine-tunnels-and-rivers-mercury-021401 Of particular interest are the huge amounts of quicksilver found under the Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl, forming lakes and rivers in miniature. With them, numerous metallic spheres and other objects have been excavated. Quetzalcoatl was the patron god of the Aztec priesthood, of learning and kniwledge. He was said to have invented books and the calendar. In so many ways, he resembles Thoth and Hermes Trismegistos respectively, the deified cultural hero of the ancient Egyptians. I have read many times about the similarities between the ancient Egyptian pyramids and that 'technology' and those at Teotihuacan. Yet, whenever I ask about the dating discrepancies , it isnt answered , or I am offered silly explanations . " The city may have lasted until sometime between the 7th and 8th centuries CE, but its major monuments were sacked and systematically burned around 550 CE. Teotihuacan began as a religious center in the Mexican Highlands around the first century CE." " Archaeologists believe Egypt's large pyramids are the work of the Old Kingdom society that rose to prominence in the Nile Valley after 3000 B.C. Historical analysis tells us that the Egyptians built the Giza Pyramids in a span of 85 years between 2589 and 2504 BC. " Basically, we have a 3000 year gap .... if we are postulating an influence between the two cultures. ... thats some gap ! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted July 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nungali said: I have read many times about the similarities between the ancient Egyptian pyramids and that 'technology' and those at Teotihuacan. Yet, whenever I ask about the dating discrepancies , it isnt answered , or I am offered silly explanations . " The city may have lasted until sometime between the 7th and 8th centuries CE, but its major monuments were sacked and systematically burned around 550 CE. Teotihuacan began as a religious center in the Mexican Highlands around the first century CE." " Archaeologists believe Egypt's large pyramids are the work of the Old Kingdom society that rose to prominence in the Nile Valley after 3000 B.C. Historical analysis tells us that the Egyptians built the Giza Pyramids in a span of 85 years between 2589 and 2504 BC. " Basically, we have a 3000 year gap .... if we are postulating an influence between the two cultures. ... thats some gap ! It takes a long time to paddle across the Atlantic. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 21, 2019 Indeed ! people lived a lot longer in the old days ... look at Noah ! And it would take time - especially with 3000 years of teachings aids, tubular saws and giant Sun reflecting polished gold mirrors for laser rock cutting . Even worse having to drag them across the 'top route' and down through Canada (while only building teepees on the way ) Finally, when settling down, they built the teepees out of rocks . (If you put your non working electric shaver in a tee pee overnight on the full Moon ... it will never work again ! ) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) There's a show on History channel, the new "In Search of..." that recently had a two part series on Atlantis. It was cool because they used the description of Atlantis from Plato and explored various possibilities based on Plato's clues. One possibility they suggested was the Minoans. Some of the clues matched, others did not. I've also heard it suggested that it could've been the East Indies. Edited July 22, 2019 by Fa Xin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) On 22.7.2019 at 12:19 AM, Nungali said: I have read many times about the similarities between the ancient Egyptian pyramids and that 'technology' and those at Teotihuacan. Yet, whenever I ask about the dating discrepancies , it isnt answered , or I am offered silly explanations . " The city may have lasted until sometime between the 7th and 8th centuries CE, but its major monuments were sacked and systematically burned around 550 CE. Teotihuacan began as a religious center in the Mexican Highlands around the first century CE." However, we still don't know who built Teotihuacan and when. At the time the Aztecs found it, the city had been abandoned for centuries. We do know that the area was permanently inhabited since the 6th century BCE (at the latest), though. Quote " Archaeologists believe Egypt's large pyramids are the work of the Old Kingdom society that rose to prominence in the Nile Valley after 3000 B.C. Historical analysis tells us that the Egyptians built the Giza Pyramids in a span of 85 years between 2589 and 2504 BC. " A recent study by the university of Basel, employing an advanced version of carbon dating on a sample of wood admixture from mortar found in a wall inside Khafre's pyramid, revealed that (in all likelihood) it was built even some 500 years earlier than previously believed. (I can dig up the reference if anybody cares to have it.) Quote Basically, we have a 3000 year gap .... if we are postulating an influence between the two cultures. ... thats some gap ! Yes. Despite numerous cultural parallels between the Mesoamerican natives and the ancient Egyptians as well as their neighbours, the Babylonians (a culture believed to be another Atlantean offshoot), there is indeed a temporal gap that warrants an explanation. The way I see it, there are basically two possibilities: In antiquity, seafarers from Mediterranean countries introduced what was to them already old cultural heritage to Central America. Representations of elephants (long extinct in the Americas) in ancient Mesoamerican art might indicate that. Also, Quetzalcoatl (the Aztecs' aforementioned culture hero) was often seen as a white, bearded man - perhaps suggesting a Babylonian. The prevalence of step pyramids in Central America, strongly reminiscent of Babylonian ziggurats, might speak to that possibility as well. On top of that, Egypt may well have had direct connections too (see cocaine mummies! ). Sacred buildings as well as other cultural features in both parts of the world independently reflect Atlantean heritage that had lain dormant for millenias. While this explanation may sound rather unlikely at first, we should bear in mind that after a global cataclysm considerable time may pass before the survivors of an advanced civilisation (rather their descendants) see themselves in a position to take up the threads it had left once again. (Einstein: "I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stone!") And things did move slowly in antiquity! Nevertheless, I agree that that question is really the elephant in the room. However, it can be assumed that, in general terms, occult (!) knowledge has the mysterious ability to reappear after long periods of time whenever and wherever the seed has fallen on fertile ground. Edited July 22, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 22, 2019 17 hours ago, Nungali said: Cool. Any attempts to back up your religious beliefs and hopes and dreams by twisting or misquoting or misrepresenting any of the sciences like archaeology, geology etc. shall be run through the Nungali research centre and you will be be busted for any lies and BS . ... and arrested too ! Busted and arrested by the Nungali Anti New Age , BS and Woo Woo Squad ! ( NANABSAWWS ) .... This post bought to you by ~ Nanabsawws ~ Of course, if you want to just rant about cool beliefs and 'supposin' and NOT try to prove it with science ...... thou shalt not be chastised . ugh, your mind is so closed and you have waay too much time on your hands. You may be the biggest contributor to 'fun' speculative threads like this. As a profession I assume you stand on street corners yelling at people. Correcting any and everything you find frivolous. You don't even read well. Notice in my single original post here (versus your multiple) I wrote cocaine/nicotine because in one of the most famous cases they couldn't replicate the cocaine, but they could the nicotine. Course there are a few other plants other then South American tobacco that have some nicotine, but I don't think its too over far fetched to contemplate trade between continents earlier then is generally thought. I know that offends, you. Pushing dates back is woo woo to you, cause you see history written in stone. Nothing to find there, but while it can get into speculative and even woo woo territory, good history is fluid. New discoveries are made, dates of discovery pushed back. The Nanabsaww PC police squad fight against it, but with enough solid evidence paradigms and dates change all the time. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 22, 2019 12 hours ago, Fa Xin said: There's a show on History channel, the new "In Search of..." that recently had a two part series on Atlantis. It was cool because they used the description of Atlantis from Plato and explored various possibilities based on Plato's clues. One possibility they suggested was the Minoans. Some of the clues matched, others did not. Please don't get me started with the Minoan theory! Yes, the isle of Santorini was an important centre of that relatively advanced culture, and while the volcanic eruption of 1600 BCE and the subsequent tsunami hitting Crete certainly shook up the Minoans, the island didn't sink and the culture wasn't destroyed overall. Besides the time scale, also the location is way off, as Santorini is in the Mediterranean sea, not in the Atlantic. Plato as well as the Egyptians who conveyed the story to Solon would certainly have known the difference. That being said, it is conceivable that the Minoans originally inherited their culture from the Atlanteans whose domain (says Plato) covered much of the Mediterranean zone. That might explain some of the parallels between the Atlanteans and the Minoans. 12 hours ago, Fa Xin said: I've also heard it suggested that it could've been the East Indies. Again, this is due to a confusion. There was indeed once a widespread civilisation in the Pacific that left many traces in terms of archaeology, genetics and mythology, and that also exerted some influence on the Americas. It is known as Mu and Lemuria respectively today. While its existence partially overlapped with Atlantis (and there seems to have been some contact going on between the two), the Lemurians were of a much more introverted and monkish nature than the rather imperialistic Atlanteans. Like yin and yang, really. To some degree, the difference between the two cultures can still be seen reflected in Eastern vs. Western countries today. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) Coming back to Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec deity that was first worshipped at Teotihuacan. This is from the Wikipedia article about him: Quote To the Aztecs, Quetzalcoatl was, as his name indicates, a feathered serpent, a flying reptile (much like a dragon), who was a boundary-maker (and transgressor) between earth and sky. He was a creator deity having contributed essentially to the creation of Mankind. He also had anthropomorphic forms, for example in his aspects as Ehecatl the wind god. Among the Aztecs, the name Quetzalcoatl was also a priestly title, as the two most important priests of the Aztec Templo Mayor were called "Quetzalcoatl Tlamacazqui". This is telling Quetzalcoatl's story rather nicely: https://www.inside-mexico.com/the-legend-of-quetzalcoatl-by-chela-orozco/ Now the parallels between Quetzalcoatl ( "Feathered Snake") and the Egyptian Thoth (who later became Hermes Trismegistos) should make the Hermetists amongst you really prick up your ears. Just looking at Hermes' famous caducaeus will provide you with a not-so-subtle hint... How about the Giza site and its alleged relation to Teotihuacan now? Is Giza connected to Thoth in any way? Well, tradition has it that pharaoh Khufu was seeking the ancient knowledge of Thoth in order to build the Great Pyramid... 😲 https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/khufumag/ Edited July 22, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Content added Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 22, 2019 Just for the record, I am not saying that ALL such parallels must be due to a chain of transmission in historical terms necessarily. Oftentimes, that will be the case, however... To me, the Gods (or Archetypes) are real and alive. They can find parallel expression in places that are far away from each other in space and time. As long as there are humans that are sensitive to them, their messages will be conveyed. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 22, 2019 10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: However, we still don't know who built Teotihuacan and when. At the time the Aztecs found it, the city had been abandoned for centuries. We do know that the area was permanently inhabited since the 6th century BCE (at the latest), though. A recent study by the university of Basel, employing an advanced version of carbon dating on a sample of wood admixture from mortar found in a wall inside Khafre's pyramid, revealed that (in all likelihood) it was built even some 500 years earlier than previously believed. (I can dig up the reference if anybody cares to have it.) Great ! Your 'research' has made the gap even bigger and even harder to explain 10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Yes. Despite numerous cultural parallels between the Mesoamerican natives and the ancient Egyptians as well as their neighbours, the Babylonians (a culture believed to be another Atlantean offshoot), there is indeed a temporal gap that warrants an explanation. The way I see it, there are basically two possibilities: In antiquity, seafarers from Mediterranean countries introduced what was to them already old cultural heritage to Central America. Representations of elephants (long extinct in the Americas) in ancient Mesoamerican art might indicate that. Also, Quetzalcoatl (the Aztecs' aforementioned culture hero) was often seen as a white, bearded man - perhaps suggesting a Babylonian. The prevalence of step pyramids in Central America, strongly reminiscent of Babylonian ziggurats, might speak to that possibility as well. On top of that, Egypt may well have had direct connections too (see cocaine mummies! ). Ummmm ..... your outline of the 'possibility' does not address the issue ( ie. the time gap) Nice claim about elephants in meso amercian art Have you been reading Zecharia Sitchin ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin#Criticisms I will file that along with the other 'proofs' ...... like that guy in the 'spaceship' 10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Sacred buildings as well as other cultural features in both parts of the world independently reflect Atlantean heritage that had lain dormant for millenias. While this explanation may sound rather unlikely at first, we should bear in mind that after a global cataclysm considerable time may pass before the survivors of an advanced civilisation (rather their descendants) see themselves in a position to take up the threads it had left once again. (Einstein: "I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stone!") And things did move slowly in antiqui Not only laid dormant .... in some places, to surface again 3000 years later, but also vanished and never came back 3 or 3000 years later in the places, or anywhere else, where they originated . 10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Nevertheless, I agree that that question is really the elephant in the room. Is that a South African elephant, a South Indian elephant or a South American elephant . Regardless of where he is from , he is blocking the progress of this 'theory' and cannot be ignored. So, he needs to be removed VALIDLY before this idea has even a remote chance of getting past him . 10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: However, it can be assumed that, in general terms, occult (!) knowledge has the mysterious ability to reappear after long periods of time whenever and wherever the seed has fallen on fertile ground. Oh, I see ... we are going to invoke the mysterious power and ability of occult knowledge to get around the elephant Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, thelerner said: ugh, your mind is so closed and you have waay too much time on your hands. You may be the biggest contributor to 'fun' speculative threads like this. As a profession I assume you stand on street corners yelling at people. Correcting any and everything you find frivolous. Ha! Closed mind ... thats funny to people that know me. It seems fairly open to them ... but not open to the sort of unrealistic fantasies you need to believe in . professionally I am retired . I awake way before dawn and spend some time here and elsewhere while the sun rises ... street corners are too cold that time of morning this time of year. Thats right .... its the rational logical types yelling from street corners ... not the believers in Atlantis ! Nice try for an insult ... but actually a failure.. and more ... a backfire - your post reads more like its being shouted from a street corner The rest of the time (on line, reading and academically ) I spend studying the very sciences you are trying to prostitute to your own new age and woo woo ends ; archaeology, palaeontology, history, anthropology, geology etc . I dont bother correcting the frivolous but I will correct people like you that throw their 'proofs' around and try to back them up with science . As I said, believe whatever brain mash you want to or need to, but if you try to back up your BS with science, then expect a canning . and I dont care how many stupid and pathetic responses that are not even relevant that you make, like the above . They are just diversions from the facts that make you feel uncomfortable . Evidenced by the reaction you had . I say, if you misinterpret science to back up your prejudices, I will expose that ... your response was ... well ... look at it ! . Quote You don't even read well. You dont compose woo woo well . The whole original hijacking of these tests (by people that did not do them, or initiate them ) was to try and prove trade contact between ancient Egypt and some postulated ancient American civilisation of that same time, by suggesting the mummies had COCAINE and TOBACCO in them - both products of the New World . The whole thing is stupid and ridiculous ... cocaine was not even invented back then, what they thought they found was traces of certain alkaloids similar to cocaine ... so they dropped that like a hot potato (like you did ) . Then they dropped the tobacco to nicotine. The even that got debunked . Except for those , who keep mindlessly repeating this internet woo woo drivel . Its been solidly de-bunked YEARS BACK! Quote Notice in my single original post here (versus your multiple) I wrote cocaine/nicotine because in one of the most famous cases they couldn't replicate the cocaine, but they could the nicotine. Course there are a few other plants other then South American tobacco that have some nicotine, but I don't think its too over far fetched to contemplate trade between continents earlier then is generally thought. Look at the reason and the logic in what you just wrote ; you just admitted other plants have nicotine . This includes many plants throughout Africa as well . Do you know what they are ? Do you know the constitution of mummy embalming ingredients ? The results showed NICOTINE not TOBACCO . Can you understand that ? But you refer to think this means there was contact between the Egyptians and South Americans and they traded ... that is what is touted with the people that started this cocaine mummy BS in the first place ... the original tester and researcher never did ! And then you somehow seem to think it justifies trade between continents than earlier thought . It doesnt . But other things indicate that. And the establishment of an earlier date of intercontinental trade , even if some people in America shipped drugs to ancient Egypt there is still a 3000 year time gap ..... OI VEY ! Quote I know that offends, you. Nope, not at all. I often debate FOR earlier sea trade / travel dates . Good God man, I am an Aussie interested in ancient Australia , the best evidence we have for early seafaring ! I got posts about it all over the place here . Quote Pushing dates back is woo woo to you, cause you see history written in stone. You must have totally missed or read the opposite of what I write here in other posts and all over the forum . I have also been at the fore front and an advocate for , over the last 6 months the whole and complete re writing of Australian pre-colonial history. It can be followed on the Historum website .. and occasional rare posts on Daobums (but I tend not to get too academic here becasue ..... well , people like you . ) Quote Nothing to find there, but while it can get into speculative and even woo woo territory, good history is fluid. New discoveries are made, dates of discovery pushed back. Really ? < extreme sarcasm > I review REAL history and am interesting in making VALID changes , not redefining things becasue some woo woo author made you (or me ) feel good with unbacked up, wrong, or money making BS . Quote The Nanabsaww PC police squad fight against it, but with enough solid evidence paradigms and dates change all the time. Yeah .... I already talked about that . If you cant take on my criticisms and challenges without referring me to things I already agree with and wrote about here, then I suggest you leave such stuff to the OP . He makes much better valid points than the response you had . All you had to do was do the simplest thing possible and simply go look it up on wikipeadia ! " The same argument can be applied to nicotine but, in addition, various plants other than tobacco are a source of nicotine and two of these, Withania somnifera and Apium graveolens, were known and used by ancient Egyptians.[ " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui Edited July 23, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 23, 2019 On 21/07/2019 at 11:21 PM, Michael Sternbach said: As it happens, I read Hancock's latest book too. I think you summarised/posed some really fundamental questions and conclusions. As to the highlighted part, this raises the question how we define advanced technology in the first place. It is conceivable that ancient civilisations found practical solutions for certain problems and tasks which are quite different from our current understanding of technology. We may hardly be able to recognize them as 'technology', yet they get the job done that they are meant for. This is a VERY valid point . If we are asked to move a huge a block we immediately start thinking of modern tech ways . But what if we never had that ? Look at big block moving guy in USA .. he uses simple methods, bits of wood, pebbles, etc . and it amazes the modern mind . One simple idea is ; how did ancient people get from B all the way over to D ? They walked . Whaaat ? that would take 9 months ! Why would they take 9 months out of their life just to get there ? Well, they might ask you, why would you take 9 months (or 9 years ) working in an office building ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Please don't get me started with the Minoan theory! Yes, the isle of Santorini was an important centre of that relatively advanced culture, and while the volcanic eruption of 1600 BCE and the subsequent tsunami hitting Crete certainly shook up the Minoans, the island didn't sink and the culture wasn't destroyed overall. Besides the time scale, also the location is way off, as Santorini is in the Mediterranean sea, not in the Atlantic. Plato as well as the Egyptians who conveyed the story to Solon would certainly have known the difference. That being said, it is conceivable that the Minoans originally inherited their culture from the Atlanteans whose domain (says Plato) covered much of the Mediterranean zone. That might explain some of the parallels between the Atlanteans and the Minoans. Again, this is due to a confusion. There was indeed once a widespread civilisation in the Pacific that left many traces in terms of archaeology, genetics and mythology, and that also exerted some influence on the Americas. It is known as Mu and Lemuria respectively today. While its existence partially overlapped with Atlantis (and there seems to have been some contact going on between the two), the Lemurians were of a much more introverted and monkish nature than the rather imperialistic Atlanteans. Like yin and yang, really. To some degree, the difference between the two cultures can still be seen reflected in Eastern vs. Western countries today. ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuria_(continent) Why not Doggerland ? We have much better proof that pace existed . https://www.heritagedaily.com/2018/07/doggerland-europes-lost-land/117925 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Coming back to Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec deity that was first worshipped at Teotihuacan. This is from the Wikipedia article about him: This is telling Quetzalcoatl's story rather nicely: https://www.inside-mexico.com/the-legend-of-quetzalcoatl-by-chela-orozco/ Now the parallels between Quetzalcoatl ( "Feathered Snake") and the Egyptian Thoth (who later became Hermes Trismegistos) should make the Hermetists amongst you really prick up your ears. Just looking at Hermes' famous caducaeus will provide you with a not-so-subtle hint... How about the Giza site and its alleged relation to Teotihuacan now? Is Giza connected to Thoth in any way? Well, tradition has it that pharaoh Khufu was seeking the ancient knowledge of Thoth in order to build the Great Pyramid... 😲 https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/khufumag/ WOW! The connection of logic here eludes me ! Talk about trying hard ! It might work on the uneducated due to vague and general association . But not to those that know more about the two Gods. I can compare many cultures serpent icons with both Egyptian and South American it doesnt mean that they had a 3000 year time gap influence on each other though. Peepes be straining their logic and reason 'facilities' over this one . They do that when they WANT to or NEED to 'believe ' . Edited July 23, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
