Nungali Posted July 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Just for the record, I am not saying that ALL such parallels must be due to a chain of transmission in historical terms necessarily. Oftentimes, that will be the case, however... ... Oh , okay then ... I shall note that in 'the record' then . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hag Posted July 23, 2019 On 7/21/2019 at 3:21 PM, Michael Sternbach said: For instance, many people have been doing experiments and making observation in regards to 'pyramid energies'. As anybody with sufficient 'subtle perception' can tell you, these 'energies' are real enough and have definitive effects, however, they exist quite outside the scope of mainstream science and technology. Maybe as our knowledge of quantum physics and how it relates to other disciplines progresses, we will regain an understanding of what some ancient civilisations were aware of long ago. Do you have further information or material on the topic ? It is the first time I hear of this since I read a radiestesia treaty looong time ago. It was mentioning different kind of beams emitted by pyramidal and half-spherical solids (included a powerful "green ray"). Is is related ? Thank you for these threads by the way. Something I learned recently from an archeologist that is studying neolithic period is that around Stonehenge times there used to be stable societies of hunter gatherers, counting hundred of people, with no difficulty to find food for anybody. In many places, it seems that agriculture has been more a cultural choice than a necessity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 23, 2019 10 hours ago, Hag said: Do you have further information or material on the topic ? It is the first time I hear of this since I read a radiestesia treaty looong time ago. It was mentioning different kind of beams emitted by pyramidal and half-spherical solids (included a powerful "green ray"). Is is related ? Thank you for these threads by the way. Something I learned recently from an archeologist that is studying neolithic period is that around Stonehenge times there used to be stable societies of hunter gatherers, counting hundred of people, with no difficulty to find food for anybody. In many places, it seems that agriculture has been more a cultural choice than a necessity. Stonehenge 'phases' cover long amounts of time . Look into Scara Brae and other sites at Orkney Is - which appears to have been the centre of a vast network that Stonehenge later became a developing manifestation of ( dont be mislead by the modern view that Okney is a 'last northern outpost' ) - pre neolithic ( ie , before farming ) Check out 'Ring of Brodgar' and the info on the research of feasting there . Same around Goblkei tepe .... not only hundreds of cattle killed at one time for one feast, but genetic testing shows they all from one heard , Agriculture ? The biggest mistake mankind ever made . http://discovermagazine.com/1987/may/02-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 23, 2019 On 7/21/2019 at 4:41 PM, Nungali said: Of course, if you want to just rant about cool beliefs and 'supposin' and NOT try to prove it with science ...... thou shalt not be chastised . As I originally said, there are genetic and language clues left by early discovers. But I consider you an obnoxious lightweight intellectual with too much time on his hands. Not worth debating things with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 23, 2019 Genetic and language clues are there ? That show that Atlantis spread advanced civilisation around the planet What a shame you cant cite it here ... instead of just saying it exists . Obviously you can cite it .... its just that I am not worth debating with .... all of a sudden ( and I AM the 'light weight intellectual ' ? ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) On 23.7.2019 at 1:04 AM, Nungali said: Great ! Your 'research' has made the gap even bigger and even harder to explain Why the sarcasm? Would you not have the intellectual honesty to offer any data for consideration that might be seen as contradicting the main thrust of your argumentation? Quote Ummmm ..... your outline of the 'possibility' does not address the issue ( ie. the time gap) I thought the implication was obvious that, prior to the construction of Teotihuacan, the relevant information to build pyramids a particular way could have been held in store by a Mediterranean culture that eventually reached Yucatan. Again, this is being presented for discussion, my argumentation overall doesn't depend on it. Quote Nice claim about elephants in meso amercian art Have you been reading Zecharia Sitchin ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin#Criticisms I will file that along with the other 'proofs' ...... like that guy in the 'spaceship' I had to check out my extensive notes to ascertain what exactly my reference was pertaining to, as I had come across the anomaly quite a while back. The question is: How come the important Mesoamerican rain god Chaac is typically shown with a snout (not unlike the Indian elephant god Ganesha)? Quote Not only laid dormant .... in some places, to surface again 3000 years later, but also vanished and never came back 3 or 3000 years later in the places, or anywhere else, where they originated . As I said, all depending on finding a suitable place and time to reemerge. Quote Is that a South African elephant, a South Indian elephant or a South American elephant . Regardless of where he is from , he is blocking the progress of this 'theory' and cannot be ignored. So, he needs to be removed VALIDLY before this idea has even a remote chance of getting past him . Lo and behold! It's an Aussie elephant in a china shop! To me, the time gap is more of a curious mystery than an obstacle blocking my way of 'proving a theory'. Bear in mind that I am not trying to prove anything - at least not in a rigorous manner. I feel more just like a child playing on a beach and telling people around me, 'look what pretty shells I have found!' - to cite Sir Isaac Newton. It is you who almost always seems to be at pains to prove or disprove something. Quote Oh, I see ... we are going to invoke the mysterious power and ability of occult knowledge to get around the elephant That may count as a valid objection on your anthropology forum. On TDB, there is no requirement to play by the rules of contemporary academic science. There is plenty of room for the inclusion of analogous thinking, sources of psychic information etc. here, however. Home game for an 'old-style, old-fashioned occultist' like me! Quote That's cute. Edited July 25, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said: Why the sarcasm? Would you not have the intellectual honesty to offer any data for consideration that might be seen as contradicting the main thrust of your argumentation? Do you mean offering data that conflicts WITH my viewpoint .... you seem to forget I did that a few times and offered up info that might support your view (in part 1 ) . In case you mean offering up data that conflicted with 'the learner's' viewpoint Here is a start; Geographical http://apworldipedia.com/index.php?title=Key_Concept_1.1_Big_Geography_and_the_Peopling_of_the_Earth https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm Genetics http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/human-skin-color-variation/modern-human-diversity-genetics Linguistics. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsif.2016.0185 even ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_language Now, since 'The learner' introduced such subjects and claimed they hold evidence for Atlantians spreading genetics and language, I would have thought that rather than me offering up the scientific view on those subjects , the one making the radical claims should be the one coughing up the evidence . But no, apparently Daobums doesnt work that . Quote I thought the implication was obvious that, prior to the construction of Teotihuacan, the relevant information to build pyramids a particular way could have been held in store by a Mediterranean culture that eventually reached Yucatan. I see. They where unknown or hiding all that time in the Mediterranean , up to the time they left for America , which I assume is close to the time of the beginning of Teotihuacan . . hiding out. passing on knowledge, for near 2000 years . To many ... such 'solutions' are NOT immediately obvious ! For 'certain reasons' . Quote Again, this is being presented for discussion, my argumentation overall doesn't depend on it. I had to check out my extensive notes to ascertain what exactly my reference was pertaining to, as I had come across the anomaly quite a while back. The question is: How come the important Mesoamerican rain god Chaac is typically shown with a snout (not unlike the Indian elephant god Ganesha)? Are you serious ? That is nothing like Ganesha or an elephant ! Look, I will help you out even ! next time you want to pull the south American elephant caper ... use a much better example Quote As I said, all depending on finding a suitable place and time to reemerge. Lo and behold! It's an Aussie elephant in a china shop! Hmmmm ... more like a Kangaroo in a Theosophical bookstore . Quote To me, the time gap is more of a curious mystery than an obstacle blocking my way of 'proving a theory'. Bear in mind that I am not trying to prove anything - at least not in a rigorous manner. I feel more just like a child playing on a beach and telling people around me, 'look what pretty shells I have found!' - to cite Sir Isaac Newton. Well, the bear in my mind is reminding me that this one of the first questions I asked in oart 1 and YOUR answer was that you wanted to prove that the visions of Edgar Cayce where right . Now, apparently, you dont want to prove anything at all . Okay then . I too like pretty sea shells ...... unless people are mistaking shark shit for them . Quote It is you who almost always seems to be at pains to prove or disprove something. Hang on there .... you claimed you where going to prove Cayce right . I suppose its all my fault ... again . Quote That may count as a valid objection on your anthropology forum. On TDB, there is no requirement to play by the rules of contemporary academic science. There is plenty of room for the inclusion of analogous thinking, sources of psychic information etc. here, however. Of course and I also think the forum should support the valid criticism of anything offered .... especially if its right out there Like people might recommend some far out exercise that will do x y and z ... the others pop up and say BS , that doesnt work, its a fake, it can be dangerous ... etc . The we all read it and come to our own conclusions . Quote Home game for an 'old-style, old-fashioned occultist' like me! I'm going to buy you one of those Elphis Levi Magus 'frock coats' for your birthday . Quote That's cute. There used to be miniature elephants on Flores Island .. the little Hobbit people humans that lived there used to hunt them (Homo Hobbitus) How far out is that ! And I wouldnt be surprised if I was mocked or asked to show the proof of it . ... thing is, the proof can be shown . .... not of the Homo Hobbitus tag though https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/science/human-evolution/homo-floresiensis/ Edited July 25, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) On 23.7.2019 at 2:20 AM, Nungali said: ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuria_(continent) Why not Doggerland ? We have much better proof that pace existed . https://www.heritagedaily.com/2018/07/doggerland-europes-lost-land/117925 Nah, that's nowhere even near the area in which Mu/Lemuria is assumed to have existed (let's informally call this 'the Santorini effect'). Playing that ball right back into your hemisphere of the globe: How about Sundaland? We know for certain that a large landmass was submerged there as well at the end of the Ice Age, with the Indonesian archipelago and the Malay Peninsula still exposed today. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-and-where-is-the-sundaland.html Edited July 25, 2019 by Michael Sternbach 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) On 23.7.2019 at 2:26 AM, Nungali said: WOW! The connection of logic here eludes me ! Talk about trying hard ! Yep, let's talk about that. Quote It might work on the uneducated due to vague and general association . Okay, let's take an even closer, more comprehensive look at that "vague and general association" then. The following has been compiled by me from various sources: Quetzalcoatl was attributed by the Aztecs with the foundation of writing and books, mathematics, the calendar, astrology, and the law. All of that also applies to Thoth and Hermes Trismegistos respectively in regards to Egypt. Quetzalcoatl was said to have come over the sea from a distant land in the East. Likewise, Thoth (called the “ruler of overseas lands” in the inscriptions of the pharaoh Userir-An) originated from a land far away - however, Thoth is constantly associated with the West. The two statements are obviously in line with one another if we assume the common homeland of both to be the Atlantic Isle located in the middle. Both Quetzalcoatl and Thoth were seen as rulers of the lands they Both Quetzalcoatl and Thoth (see Book of the Dead, chapter 161) were reputed to support the sky - BTW strongly reminiscent of Atlas, the son of Poseidon and first king of Atlantis according to Plato. Quetzalcoatl is depicted as a feathered or plumed serpent, whereas Thoth/Hermes came to be associated with a winged serpent wand. Both deities are associated with the wind. Now Quetzalcoatl had a few predecessors with other Mesoamerican tribes that were pretty much identical with him, and according to page 90 of Zhirov's book (repeatedly referred to in my first Atlantis thread), there once was a Mexican deity called Teot, Teut or Teute who also played the role of civiliser and supported the sky. As another interesting aside, Thoth's birth place was hit by a cosmic catastrophe, from which he ("employing wings") escaped eastwards over a great body of water together with some other Gods whom he thereby saved (see Book of the Dead, chapters 17 and 97). Vague and general association?! Quote But not to those that know more about the two Gods. Like you? Quote I can compare many cultures serpent icons with both Egyptian and South American Uhm... That would still be 'Mesoamerican'. Quote it doesnt mean that they had a 3000 year time gap influence on each other though. Peepes be straining their logic and reason 'facilities' over this one . They do that when they WANT to or NEED to 'believe ' . Indeed. I rest my case. Edited July 25, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 25, 2019 On 23.7.2019 at 2:57 PM, Hag said: Do you have further information or material on the topic ? It is the first time I hear of this since I read a radiestesia treaty looong time ago. It was mentioning different kind of beams emitted by pyramidal and half-spherical solids (included a powerful "green ray"). Is is related ? You can count on that. You might find the article Teotihuacan: Model of a Very Different Cosmos by Dave Truman enlightening. R. C. Hoagland elaborates on some of the ideas it presents in a two-hour-plus speech that can be found here: https://archive.org/details/TorsionPhysics2013 For a theoretical study of as well as practical experiments in 'pyramid energetics', I can recommend the book Pyramid Power by Max Thoth. If you PM me your email address, I will be happy to keep you posted regarding a n upcoming publication of my own pertinent to this topic. On 23.7.2019 at 2:57 PM, Hag said: Thank you for these threads by the way. You are very welcome. On 23.7.2019 at 2:57 PM, Hag said: Something I learned recently from an archeologist that is studying neolithic period is that around Stonehenge times there used to be stable societies of hunter gatherers, counting hundred of people, with no difficulty to find food for anybody. In many places, it seems that agriculture has been more a cultural choice than a necessity. Well, I am not sure about that. Perhaps you have heard of a megalithic site called Göbekli Tepe in Turkey? It is not only much bigger than Stonehenge (even though only a small part of it has been excavated to this day), it is also considerably older (safe perhaps for the latter's earliest preliminary stages). As a matter of fact, it dates back right to the end of the Ice Age. It is believed that the construction and running of that place required the logistical support of numerous people fully dedicated to their activities and it is hard to conceive how that could be accomplished without agriculture. There are indeed indications for its employment at so early a date on that site. While some academic researchers still treat Göbekli Tepe as some kind of weird anomaly and others tentatively suggest that religiously motivated endeavours of that kind may have been the very reason for the development of agriculture, I assume that the understanding of it as well as the craftsmanship and astronomical knowledge (and so on) that went into the construction of the site were things possessed and imported by the antediluvian culture that IMO initiated the project. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) On 7/23/2019 at 6:24 PM, Nungali said: Genetic and language clues are there ? That show that Atlantis spread advanced civilisation around the planet What a shame you cant cite it here ... instead of just saying it exists . Obviously you can cite it .... its just that I am not worth debating with .... all of a sudden ( and I AM the 'light weight intellectual ' ? ) If you hadn't started sarcastic and obnoxious it'd be easier to converse with you. Lifes too short to argue with .. I'll give a little bit though. You don't understand the gist of my argument. The mythos of Atlantis is an advanced civilization that disappeared suddenly. Its not that it, or rather 'they' spread civilization as much as they left clues to there existence. Serious researchers mostly archaeologists have looked for clues and found some, in artifacts, language, folk lore and genetics. This is how Troy, once considered mythological was found. This is how we pushed back the 'discovery' of America to the Vikings, and many suspect its even earlier. It took investigators with an open mind and budget to do this kind of detective work in history. The scientific method is hypothesis, testing, analysis.. formulating models based on that the results.. repeat. Yet before hypothesis is speculation. Not blind or wild, but what's possible. Take Egyptians, long civilization, technology. In Alexandria they had an incredible library that brought in scholars from around the civilized world. Historians are constantly finding trade to be more pervasive then previously thought. For gold, spices and drugs, kingdoms and traders would go to vast extremes. And then there's simply bad luck, ships wildly off course in storms. There is much smoke, not so fire, except in the cases of Leif Erikson and the Vikings. Here's a pretty good clear eyed summation of the entire Pre-columbian trans ocean possible voyages to the Americas. Note, while its good to be skeptic, its an ongoing field, new discoveries are being made. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories There are excerpts dealing from Polynesian, leaving vegetational clues to the Irish, leaving old folk lore. Here's an example of possible Roman contact- Claims involving ancient Roman contact Evidence of contacts with the civilizations of Classical Antiquity—primarily with the Roman Empire, but sometimes also with other cultures of the age—have been based on isolated archaeological finds in American sites that originated in the Old World. The Bay of Jars in Brazil has been yielding ancient clay storage jars that resemble Roman amphorae[103] for over 150 years. It has been proposed that the origin of these jars is a Roman wreck, although it has been suggested that they could be 15th or 16th century Spanish olive oil jars. Romeo Hristov argues that a Roman ship, or the drifting of such a shipwreck to the American shores, is a possible explanation of archaeological finds (like the Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca bearded head) from ancient Rome in America. Hristov claims that the possibility of such an event has been made more likely by the discovery of evidences of travels by Romans to Tenerife and Lanzarote in the Canaries, and of a Roman settlement (from the 1st century BCE to the 4th century CE) on Lanzarote island.[104] Floor mosaic depicting a fruit which looks like a pineapple. Opus vermiculatum, Roman artwork of the end of the 1st century BCE/beginning of the 1st century CE. In 1950, an Italian botanist, Domenico Casella, suggested that a depiction of a pineapple was represented among wall paintings of Mediterranean fruits at Pompeii. According to Wilhelmina Feemster Jashemski, this interpretation has been challenged by other botanists, who identify it as a pine cone from the Umbrella pine tree, which is native to the Mediterranean area.[105] Back to Atlantis, I've found claims of Crete/Minoan and Santorini following the Atlantean rise and fall mythos interesting. Not that they were wizards or magical, rather they were an advanced trading sea farers that got wiped out pretty quickly. Things that conform to the Atlantis pattern, the kind of things that fade into legend. You can find many sites that look into it, like https://www.greecehighdefinition.com/blog/2018/11/22/is-crete-or-santorini-the-lost-atlantis Edited July 25, 2019 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 26, 2019 18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Nah, that's nowhere even near the area in which Mu/Lemuria is assumed to have existed (let's informally call this 'the Santorini effect'). Playing that ball right back into your hemisphere of the globe: How about Sundaland? We know for certain that a large landmass was submerged there as well at the end of the Ice Age, with the Indonesian archipelago and the Malay Peninsula still exposed today. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-and-where-is-the-sundaland.html Hmmm ... More like 'Sahul ' I think . Some Sri Lankan ' Lemurians' see the 'continent ' extending all the way to off the western Australian . coast 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, thelerner said: If you hadn't started sarcastic and obnoxious it'd be easier to converse with you. Lifes too short to argue with .. I'll give a little bit though. You don't understand the gist of my argument. The mythos of Atlantis is an advanced civilization that disappeared suddenly. Its not that it, or rather 'they' spread civilization as much as they left clues to there existence. Serious researchers mostly archaeologists have looked for clues and found some, in artifacts, language, folk lore and genetics. I dont think then, that you understand the ghist of Sterney's argument that you are trying to support ... it IS all about the 'spread' of civilisation .... as much. Quote This is how Troy, once considered mythological was found. The mythical Troy has been found has it ? . You need to look deeper into that one . and its one that is always thrown up as an example . But lets run with dominant paradigm here and say it has been ... but that still doesnt ease the the 'strain' of that analogy http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/why-the-discovery-of-troy-is-a-bad-analogy-for-finding-atlantis Quote This is how we pushed back the 'discovery' of America to the Vikings, and many suspect its even earlier. and some KNOW it is earlier Vikings 'discovery' of America ! Pffft ! https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2018/11/ancient-dna-reveals-complex-migrations-first-americans/ Thats as bad as saying Capt Cook discovered Australia Quote It took investigators with an open mind and budget to do this kind of detective work in history. The scientific method is hypothesis, testing, analysis.. formulating models based on that the results.. repeat. Yet before hypothesis is speculation. Not blind or wild, but what's possible. Take Egyptians, long civilization, technology. In Alexandria they had an incredible library that brought in scholars from around the civilized world. Brought in ? If you happened to dock in Alexandria back then , they seized your books and records by force . Not that I get what it has to do with what you are saying . Quote Historians are constantly finding trade to be more pervasive then previously thought. For gold, spices and drugs, kingdoms and traders would go to vast extremes. And then there's simply bad luck, ships wildly off course in storms. I already said I am a proponent of early sea faring ... Australian ... remember ? And a reviewer of History . Quote There is much smoke, not so fire, except in the cases of Leif Erikson and the Vikings. Here's a pretty good clear eyed summation of the entire Pre-columbian trans ocean possible voyages to the Americas. Note, while its good to be skeptic, its an ongoing field, new discoveries are being made. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories There are excerpts dealing from Polynesian, leaving vegetational clues to the Irish, leaving old folk lore. Here's an example of possible Roman contact- Claims involving ancient Roman contact Evidence of contacts with the civilizations of Classical Antiquity—primarily with the Roman Empire, but sometimes also with other cultures of the age—have been based on isolated archaeological finds in American sites that originated in the Old World. The Bay of Jars in Brazil has been yielding ancient clay storage jars that resemble Roman amphorae[103] for over 150 years. It has been proposed that the origin of these jars is a Roman wreck, although it has been suggested that they could be 15th or 16th century Spanish olive oil jars. Romeo Hristov argues that a Roman ship, or the drifting of such a shipwreck to the American shores, is a possible explanation of archaeological finds (like the Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca bearded head) from ancient Rome in America. Hristov claims that the possibility of such an event has been made more likely by the discovery of evidences of travels by Romans to Tenerife and Lanzarote in the Canaries, and of a Roman settlement (from the 1st century BCE to the 4th century CE) on Lanzarote island.[104] Floor mosaic depicting a fruit which looks like a pineapple. Opus vermiculatum, Roman artwork of the end of the 1st century BCE/beginning of the 1st century CE. In 1950, an Italian botanist, Domenico Casella, suggested that a depiction of a pineapple was represented among wall paintings of Mediterranean fruits at Pompeii. According to Wilhelmina Feemster Jashemski, this interpretation has been challenged by other botanists, who identify it as a pine cone from the Umbrella pine tree, which is native to the Mediterranean area.[105] Back to Atlantis, I've found claims of Crete/Minoan and Santorini following the Atlantean rise and fall mythos interesting. Not that they were wizards or magical, rather they were an advanced trading sea farers that got wiped out pretty quickly. Things that conform to the Atlantis pattern, the kind of things that fade into legend. You can find many sites that look into it, like https://www.greecehighdefinition.com/blog/2018/11/22/is-crete-or-santorini-the-lost-atlantis You seem to think that I think Christopher Columbus discovered America ? And are now going on about all this . It started by me disputing our cocaine and tobacco mummies as evidence of trade between Egypt and Sth America, that you offered up in some type of support of the world wide Atlantis influence on world cultures (throughout time) . Now you are acting as If I never knew others came to america before the USA history books state . Way to run a 'argument ' . Edited July 26, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 27, 2019 On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: Do you mean offering data that conflicts WITH my viewpoint .... you seem to forget I did that a few times and offered up info that might support your view (in part 1 ) . Yeah. Or that might support alternative views still in line with the gist of the thread, at any rate. I do appreciate that kind of contribution that leads to the exploration of various what-if scenarios, rather than to an artificial and tedious 'academic view vs. Theosophical view' kind of stalemate, mate. On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: In case you mean offering up data that conflicted with 'the learner's' viewpoint Here is a start; Geographical http://apworldipedia.com/index.php?title=Key_Concept_1.1_Big_Geography_and_the_Peopling_of_the_Earth https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm Genetics http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/human-skin-color-variation/modern-human-diversity-genetics Linguistics. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsif.2016.0185 even ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_language Now, since 'The learner' introduced such subjects and claimed they hold evidence for Atlantians spreading genetics and language, I would have thought that rather than me offering up the scientific view on those subjects , the one making the radical claims should be the one coughing up the evidence . But no, apparently Daobums doesnt work that . The pool of objective data unearthed by those sciences is one thing, its interpretation quite another. There is a widely shared agreement that things get dodgy and speculation prevails especially when it comes to questions that involve evidence from archaeology. On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: I see. They where unknown or hiding all that time in the Mediterranean , up to the time they left for America , which I assume is close to the time of the beginning of Teotihuacan . . hiding out. passing on knowledge, for near 2000 years . To many ... such 'solutions' are NOT immediately obvious ! For 'certain reasons' . I have no problem imagining an Egyptian priest from overseas and a local Mayan priest getting high on tobacco and cocaine together and chatting about their cults. Egyptian dude: "For quite some time already, we've had this really cool arrangement of three huge pyramids in a line, with one of them a bit set off to the side. You know, arranged just like the belt stars in Orion... The kids really dig the place!" Mayan dude: "Wow, that rocks, man! I'm gonna have a word with my chief engineer, let's see if he can come up with something similar... " And the Mayan priest would get all the exact plans of the site in exchange for more tobacco and cocaine... On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: Are you serious ? That is nothing like Ganesha or an elephant ! Look, I will help you out even ! next time you want to pull the south American elephant caper ... use a much better example Yes, I am aware of depictions of elephants found in various parts of South America, including Panama and Bolivia, but I intended to keep the focus on Mexico. Quite mysterious, really, because as I said, any elephant-like mammals had already vanished from the Americas long before all these cultures allegedly started existing. So this seems to indicate either some cultural exchange between those Native Americans and another culture that knew about them or that their culture is itself much older than believed. Interestingly, Plato is rather explicit regarding elephants in Atlantis: "There were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all." On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: Hmmmm ... more like a Kangaroo in a Theosophical bookstore . Sounds like a great idea to me! On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: Well, the bear in my mind is reminding me that this one of the first questions I asked in oart 1 and YOUR answer was that you wanted to prove that the visions of Edgar Cayce where right . Now, apparently, you dont want to prove anything at all . Okay then . No, I said something to the effect that I was going to demonstrate the plausibility of my inner vision to the reader. Neither did I use the word 'prove' nor did I mention Cayce there. On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: I too like pretty sea shells ...... unless people are mistaking shark shit for them . Hang on there .... you claimed you where going to prove Cayce right . I suppose its all my fault ... again . Of course and I also think the forum should support the valid criticism of anything offered .... especially if its right out there Like people might recommend some far out exercise that will do x y and z ... the others pop up and say BS , that doesnt work, its a fake, it can be dangerous ... etc . The we all read it and come to our own conclusions . I'm going to buy you one of those Elphis Levi Magus 'frock coats' for your birthday . Thanks, but I'd prefer MacGregor Mather's Golden Dawn Magus outfit. On 25.7.2019 at 3:33 AM, Nungali said: There used to be miniature elephants on Flores Island .. the little Hobbit people humans that lived there used to hunt them (Homo Hobbitus) How far out is that ! And I wouldnt be surprised if I was mocked or asked to show the proof of it . ... thing is, the proof can be shown . .... not of the Homo Hobbitus tag though https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/science/human-evolution/homo-floresiensis/ Interesting. We will get back to Sunda shortly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 27, 2019 On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Yep, let's talk about that. I seemed to have missed this one before . On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Okay, let's take an even closer, more comprehensive look at that "vague and general association" then. The following has been compiled by me from various sources: Quetzalcoatl was attributed by the Aztecs with the foundation of writing and books, mathematics, the calendar, astrology, and the law. All of that also applies to Thoth and Hermes Trismegistos respectively in regards to Egypt. Quetzalcoatl was said to have come over the sea from a distant land in the East. Likewise, Thoth (called the “ruler of overseas lands” in the inscriptions of the pharaoh Userir-An) originated from a land far away - however, Thoth is constantly associated with the West. The two statements are obviously in line with one another if we assume the common homeland of both to be the Atlantic Isle located in the middle. Both Quetzalcoatl and Thoth were seen as rulers of the lands they Both Quetzalcoatl and Thoth (see Book of the Dead, chapter 161) were reputed to support the sky - BTW strongly reminiscent of Atlas, the son of Poseidon and first king of Atlantis according to Plato. Quetzalcoatl is depicted as a feathered or plumed serpent, whereas Thoth/Hermes came to be associated with a winged serpent wand. Both deities are associated with the wind. Thats pretty good . For myth comparison . Thing is the meanings of Egyptian Gods change over time and location, so we can choose the best fits. But it IS a good one . So I dont want to spoil it I'll just add one more thing here though , a quote ; " The pool of objective data unearthed by those sciences myths is one thing, its interpretation quite another. There is a widely shared agreement that things get dodgy and speculation prevails especially when it comes to questions that involve evidence from archaeology mythology . " On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Now Quetzalcoatl had a few predecessors with other Mesoamerican tribes that were pretty much identical with him, and according to page 90 of Zhirov's book (repeatedly referred to in my first Atlantis thread), there once was a Mexican deity called Teot, Teut or Teute who also played the role of civiliser and supported the sky. Yeah, but ( as an example of the 'quote; above ) if you generally ask what Egyptian God supported the sky , I think even you know what the answer would be ? https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shu-Egyptian-god ... and so on . But I do like the words ' Teut ' and 'Duat ' On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: As another interesting aside, Thoth's birth place was hit by a cosmic catastrophe, from which he ("employing wings") escaped eastwards over a great body of water together with some other Gods whom he thereby saved (see Book of the Dead, chapters 17 and 97). That Book is equally obscure and what part and section of those chapters are you referring to ? Actually, it is better to directly quote and paste the passage here . with a ref source or you could use this one https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/literature/religious/bd17.html - note the ' What does this mean ? '' element of the internal commentary : " with its unparalleled structure of internal commentary. It identifies the deceased individual with the creator-god, and every few lines inserts the words 'what does it mean?' followed not much by an explanation as by a redescription in religious terms. " On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Vague and general association?! Okay, it was an improvement . On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Like you? Only partially, , mostly on the wide range of expertise I have read . As you know Michael , I see far as I stand upon the shoulders of many others . On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Uhm... That would still be 'Mesoamerican'. Nope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent#Names_in_different_cultures On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Indeed.' Indeed-eedoo On 25/07/2019 at 6:11 PM, Michael Sternbach said: I rest my case. Good, it needs a rest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted July 27, 2019 Chapter 161 BoD quoted above: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/literature/religious/bd161.html Formula for cutting an opening in the sky done by Thoth over Wennefer, when he was opening into the sun-disk Ra lives, the turtle dies! the body is pure in the earth, the bones are pure of Osiris N. Ra lives, the turtle dies! the one in the chest is well, the one in the chest is Osiris N. Ra lives, the turtle dies! suffocated by the flesh of Qebehsenuf for their keeper Osiris N. Ra lives, the turtle dies! their passing surpasses the foundation. This is about opening the sky for the sun to rise - not supporting the sky. Also I can't think of any reference in Ch. 17 of Thoth coming from the West over a body of water. The sky in Egyptian mythology is supported by Shu (and the pillars of Shu). Every book I read which quotes Egyptian texts in support of some theory - especially Hancock and Sweatman get the Egyptian stuff all wrong. Its very depressing. But what they do is quote mine - given there is so much material to choose from they can usually find something that sounds like it supports their theory. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 28, 2019 15 hours ago, Apech said: Chapter 161 BoD quoted above: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/literature/religious/bd161.html Formula for cutting an opening in the sky done by Thoth over Wennefer, when he was opening into the sun-disk Ra lives, the turtle dies! the body is pure in the earth, the bones are pure of Osiris N. Ra lives, the turtle dies! the one in the chest is well, the one in the chest is Osiris N. Ra lives, the turtle dies! suffocated by the flesh of Qebehsenuf for their keeper Osiris N. Ra lives, the turtle dies! their passing surpasses the foundation. This is about opening the sky for the sun to rise - not supporting the sky. Also I can't think of any reference in Ch. 17 of Thoth coming from the West over a body of water. The sky in Egyptian mythology is supported by Shu (and the pillars of Shu). Every book I read which quotes Egyptian texts in support of some theory - especially Hancock and Sweatman get the Egyptian stuff all wrong. Its very depressing. But what they do is quote mine - given there is so much material to choose from they can usually find something that sounds like it supports their theory. yep, as I said . ( and when I read Michaels view on it, I must admit I thought " I hope Apec sees this mess ." And I even venture to suggest that Michaels comparisons come from such a source like Hancock or Sweatman or others and cut and pasted . I might be wrong, but I had to add that ( due to his 'shot ' at my lack knowledge on such matters ) Ancient Egyptian sources are notorius for misinterpretation ( unless its by someone with an actual background in reading and understanding them with much cross reference in other fields ) . Have you ever read any Cladking ( pyramid and ancient Egyptian 'theorist' and 'translator ' ? Its rather hilarious and has spread through over 3 different internet site forums . ( By mistranslating certain passages he 'proves' that the great pyramid was actually built on a cold water desert geyser that squirted water up into the air, got caught in a pan and the weight of that pulled down on a rope, through pullies and pulled the stone blocks up the other side of the pyramid .... and posted 10.100 s of words on it, showing how each part of his machine is described ( eye of Ra is the pan .... the duat is actually the geyser spray twinkling like stars in the sunlight .... and so on ) I think he has now been banned out of existence Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) We shall await Michael's response patiently on this : 17 hours ago, Nungali said: .... That Book is equally obscure and what part and section of those chapters are you referring to ? Actually, it is better to directly quote and paste the passage here . (least we think something fishy is afoot . ) with a ref source or you could use this one https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/literature/religious/bd17.html Edited July 28, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 28, 2019 On 25.7.2019 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said: If you hadn't started sarcastic and obnoxious it'd be easier to converse with you. Lifes too short to argue with .. I'll give a little bit though. You don't understand the gist of my argument. The mythos of Atlantis is an advanced civilization that disappeared suddenly. Its not that it, or rather 'they' spread civilization as much as they left clues to there existence. Serious researchers mostly archaeologists have looked for clues and found some, in artifacts, language, folk lore and genetics. This is how Troy, once considered mythological was found. This is how we pushed back the 'discovery' of America to the Vikings, and many suspect its even earlier. It took investigators with an open mind and budget to do this kind of detective work in history. The scientific method is hypothesis, testing, analysis.. formulating models based on that the results.. repeat. Yet before hypothesis is speculation. Not blind or wild, but what's possible. Moreover, speculation should be allowed plenty of leeway first. Sorting out what parts of it might qualify as hypotheses comes at a later stage, followed by the gathering evidence in support or contradiction to the latter. On this occasion, I would like to remind participants in my threads that they are primarily intended to stimulate the reader's imagination, not to stifle it. Few definitive claims are made. On 25.7.2019 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said: Take Egyptians, long civilization, technology. In Alexandria they had an incredible library that brought in scholars from around the civilized world. Historians are constantly finding trade to be more pervasive then previously thought. For gold, spices and drugs, kingdoms and traders would go to vast extremes. And then there's simply bad luck, ships wildly off course in storms. There is much smoke, not so fire, except in the cases of Leif Erikson and the Vikings. Here's a pretty good clear eyed summation of the entire Pre-columbian trans ocean possible voyages to the Americas. Note, while its good to be skeptic, its an ongoing field, new discoveries are being made. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories There are excerpts dealing from Polynesian, leaving vegetational clues to the Irish, leaving old folk lore. Here's an example of possible Roman contact- Claims involving ancient Roman contact Evidence of contacts with the civilizations of Classical Antiquity—primarily with the Roman Empire, but sometimes also with other cultures of the age—have been based on isolated archaeological finds in American sites that originated in the Old World. The Bay of Jars in Brazil has been yielding ancient clay storage jars that resemble Roman amphorae[103] for over 150 years. It has been proposed that the origin of these jars is a Roman wreck, although it has been suggested that they could be 15th or 16th century Spanish olive oil jars. Romeo Hristov argues that a Roman ship, or the drifting of such a shipwreck to the American shores, is a possible explanation of archaeological finds (like the Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca bearded head) from ancient Rome in America. Hristov claims that the possibility of such an event has been made more likely by the discovery of evidences of travels by Romans to Tenerife and Lanzarote in the Canaries, and of a Roman settlement (from the 1st century BCE to the 4th century CE) on Lanzarote island.[104] Floor mosaic depicting a fruit which looks like a pineapple. Opus vermiculatum, Roman artwork of the end of the 1st century BCE/beginning of the 1st century CE. Wow, that's pretty awesome: A fruit indigenous to South America on a 1st century BCE Roman fruit plate! On 25.7.2019 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said: In 1950, an Italian botanist, Domenico Casella, suggested that a depiction of a pineapple was represented among wall paintings of Mediterranean fruits at Pompeii. According to Wilhelmina Feemster Jashemski, this interpretation has been challenged by other botanists, who identify it as a pine cone from the Umbrella pine tree, which is native to the Mediterranean area.[105] Maybe so. That's a pineapple in the floor mosaic above anyway. On 25.7.2019 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said: Back to Atlantis, I've found claims of Crete/Minoan and Santorini following the Atlantean rise and fall mythos interesting. Not that they were wizards or magical, rather they were an advanced trading sea farers that got wiped out pretty quickly. Things that conform to the Atlantis pattern, the kind of things that fade into legend. You can find many sites that look into it, like https://www.greecehighdefinition.com/blog/2018/11/22/is-crete-or-santorini-the-lost-atlantis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted July 28, 2019 On 26.7.2019 at 2:34 AM, Nungali said: Hmmm ... More like 'Sahul ' I think . Some Sri Lankan ' Lemurians' see the 'continent ' extending all the way to off the western Australian . coast First off, for the sake of interested third-party readers, this summarizes what Sahul is all about: https://www.thoughtco.com/sahul-pleistocene-continent-172704 As Sundaland and Sahul were really close to each other, I suppose our Lemurian seafarers wouldn't have found it too daunting a task to cross over the Wallace line and travel the 90 kilometres or so that separated the two continents. The supposedly rather expansive civilization of Lemuria may well have straddled both landmasses. Furthermore, as the Lemurians are believed to have reached South America at some stage, this may explain the presence of an Australasian genetic signal in tribes indigenous to the Amazonas area which Apech mentioned before. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 29, 2019 Genetics dont work like that. It can be explained and is explained in the material on this subject if one cares to read it eg. " ... But this mixing of genes was not, according to Willerslev, the result of ships crossing the Pacific as previously suggested. Rather, Willerslev suggests that South Americans might have mixed with Asian populations who were related to modern day indigenous people in Australia and Melanesia. This could have allowed the Australian-Melanesian genes to arrive in America by a well-known recent population surge, writes Sciencemag.org " It shows that there was more than one ingress of people into America ..... 'across the top route' from Asia also ; " n some of the living Native American groups -- including the Surui tribe from the Amazon and the people of the Aleutian Islands in Alaska -- the scientists found surprising signs of DNA from Australia and Melanesia. " http://sciencenordic.com/mysterious-link-between-people-south-america-and-australia The pineapple thing got debunked about years ago, just after someone started touting it . Aside from the concept being silly ; Ancient Americans following the Gulf Stream somehow brought a pineapple from lower South America all the way up to the North American coast and then across the Atlantic—keeping it fresh, no less—before turning it over to the Romans, who dispatched it not to the capital but to a resort town where its image was faithfully preserved, though only in an obscure corner of a single mural, for 140 years. There are many 'pineapples' in Roman art . Why, it was decor, a fruit platter decoration, and they are actually pine cones , a common practice in a feast to decorate the table and plates . Specifically , the 'umbrella pine cone . ' They called em pine apples becasue they look like the 'apple' of the pine tree . DUUUUDES ! Still ' patiently ' awaiting the explanation about you interpretation about Thoth and the Egyptian Book of the Dead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted July 30, 2019 http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/humans-hominin-introgression-07438.html?fbclid=IwAR3OzvZ7eKbtlpCHNFgfV5XdzzlNozgsSFdAdc43Q8UAG2xaFFvj90bo9to Quote "As anatomically modern Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa and around the rest of the world, they met and interbred with at least four different hominin species, according to new research from the University of Adelaide, Australia. Strikingly, of these hominins, only Neanderthals and Denisovans are currently known; the others remain unnamed and have only been detected as traces of DNA surviving in different modern populations." “Island Southeast Asia was already a crowded place when what we call modern humans first reached the region just before 50,000 years ago,” Dr. Teixeira said. “At least three other archaic human groups appear to have occupied the area, and the ancestors of modern humans mixed with them before the archaic humans became extinct.” In their new research, Dr. Teixeira and his colleague, Professor Alan Cooper, analyzed genetic, archaeological and fossil evidence as well as additional information from reconstructed migration routes and fossil vegetation records. The scientists found there was a mixing event in the vicinity of southern Asia between anatomically modern humans and a group they named Extinct Hominin 1 (EH1). Other interbreeding occurred with Denisovans in Island Southeast Asia and the Philippines, and with another group — named Extinct Hominin 2 (EH2) — in Flores, Indonesia." Interesting that there is so much activity in 'island southeast Asia'. Also @Nungali if the Australasian DNA in Amazon tribes originated through land bridge migrations from the Beiring Straits where are the traces in the rest of north and central America? through which they must have migrated? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) That is not THAT unusual . There are traces ( if one chooses to see them as that ) in the 'top route' , half way down America , and near the origin point, but there is not a clear trail of 'footprints' in every place they may have passed through. They may have not interbred, passed through , not found yet ( or ever ), been 'carriers' or even died out . There are traces of ancient people in Morroco that died out and never continued, and in other places . " The link between Australia and ancient Amazonians also hints that several genetically distinct groups may have come across Beringia into the Americas. The Australian signature was first found in modern-day indigenous South Americans by Pontus Skoglund and colleagues (SN: 8/22/15, p. 6). No one was sure why indigenous Australians and South Americans shared DNA since the groups didn’t have any recent contact. One possibility, says Skoglund, a geneticist at the Francis Crick Institute in London and a coauthor of the Cell paper, was that the signature was very old and inherited from long-lost ancestors of both groups. So Skoglund, Nakatsuka and colleagues tested DNA from a group of ancient Brazilians, but didn’t find the signature. Willerslev’s group, however, examined DNA from 10,400-year-old remains from Lagoa Santa, Brazil, and found the signature, supporting the idea that modern people could have inherited it from much older groups. And Skoglund is thrilled. “It’s amazing to see it confirmed,” he says. How that genetic signature got to Brazil in the first place is still a mystery, though. Researchers don’t think early Australians paddled across the Pacific Ocean to South America. “None of us really think there was some sort of Pacific migration going on here,” Skoglund says. That leaves an overland route through Beringia. There’s only one problem: Researchers didn’t find the Australian signature in any of the ancient remains tested from North or Central America. And no modern-day indigenous North or Central Americans tested have the signature either. Still, Raff thinks it likely that an ancestral group of people from Asia split off into two groups, with one heading to Australia and the other crossing the land bridge into the Americas. The group that entered the Americas didn’t leave living descendants in the north. Or, because not many ancient remains have been studied, it’s possible that scientists have just missed finding evidence of this particular migration. " https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-dna-fossils-south-america-populated Edited July 30, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 28, 2020 Mod notice - As requested by OP, recent posts in this thread were moved to part 1 - Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 29, 2020 Hmmm ... tricky . This just in ( and I thought worth posting) ; 'Archaeologists explore 7,000 year old submerged site . ' But Welkin doesnt want me to post in the Atlantis Thread PART 1 ... where the new posts to Atlantis PART 2 are being moved back to .... Anyway https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/archaeology-underwater-australia-180975235/ " Benjamin and his colleagues documented the world's oldest seawall at a 7,000-year-old site off the coast of Israel. Other teams are exploring the west coast of North America searching for sites that may settle long-standing debates about how humans first populated the continent. Evans just got back last week from a six-day expedition in the Gulf of Mexico, where 40 million acres of land that was dry 12,000 years ago is now underwater. She and her colleagues took 40 core samples from the underwater sediment that they plan to analyse for archaeological material. " It seems they are going to start looking for submerged stuff all over the place . Who knows what may turn up next ? 'Nungnuts' preparing a tasty sauce to potentially have with his hat . PS. If you move this back to Part 1 Steve ... you will have to deal with Welkin . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
