Are there any other leftists here? 👀

[Earl Grey]

16 hours ago, steve said:

 

For the same reasons you point out, I rarely engage with anything political. I feel the discomfort when sharing and exposing myself that you describe. I frankly feel a bit uncomfortable on the DaoBums anymore.

 

Ironic that a sectarian, egalitarian, Daoist meeting room developed and hosted by a leftist activist has become a “stronghold” for right wing propaganda and invective. I guess political ideology is a bit like a virus, or a mold - it grows and spreads where conditions allow.

 

16 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I am somebody whose disheartened with the pronounced right wing slant of the political threads here.  It´s weird.  Don´t socialists read Chuang Tzu and practice Tai Chi?  I think they do, though you wouldn´t know it reading the Trump Talk thread.  My take is that appearances are deceiving.  Many of the Bums I respect most are left-leaning cultivators who simply prefer to post about spirituality and eschew political conversation here altogether.   In my experience,  the political threads are mostly toxic -- and addictive (like so many other toxic things).  Luckily, there´s a lot of other more nourishing conversation to be had when I tear myself away from the political fighting.

 

A shorter version of a longer piece I've been writing summarized here: the tendency to do "cultivation practices" is one thing, but the degree of quality is another. With the inherent nature of the Internet and some people making themselves self-proclaimed masters through YouTube videos and pirated PDFs who dislike the structure of formal tutelage, is it still surprising that the somewhat esoteric practices of varying quality also invites the conspiracists?

 

Let's say you have someone who is open to these esoteric discussions and philosophies. She may be interested because she read a few books in college and decided to do a Reiki workshop, then joins an online board and gets introduced to some people of a similar bent. Her openness to the metaphysical and what is also very personal does not correlate to being balanced, because she decides she's going to buy into a lot of conspiracy theories that make absolutely no sense.

 

What these conspiracies and these esoteric practices have in common are 1) no verification of actual value, 2) feeling of belonging to a cool kids' club of people in the know who defy the established norms and paradigms, 3) questioning or challenging those views and values is the same as discussing religion, as both are held sacred. For the esoteric influence, the only way to look at that for me is look at the fruits borne of their practice in character, health, and skill. For the conspiracy views, look at how much suspension of disbelief they need to carry and start believing is reality. 

 

In other words, if they're going to believe in qi and telekinesis, what's to stop them from believing in unfounded conspiracies like pizzagate? 

 

This is why years ago I liked the forum because it gave one of the four pillars important to any cultivator: community. The other pillars are good teacher, good system, good lineage, and the fifth pillar is good student. Due to the nature of my own work, community is lacking because I'm always hopping countries, and the Philippines is the longest place I've been stationed in for the past four years, which makes community organization interesting as the more one goes deeper into rooting, the better their ties to a community become and stronger the foundation for any work mobilizing things (PM me for all interested in stories as the rest is too sensitive to discuss here).

 

ADDENDUM:

 

So in short--believing in esoteric practices and doing them can strengthen one's existing ideological bent and fuels a lot of the conspiracies promoted here, reinforced by their belief in the power of their cultivation, often with poor barometers to test skill, character, and fruits of the practice if not an outright absence of them. It may feel more egalitarian, yet they seem to enjoy a strong man political approach, whereas they seem to fear that in a formal tutelage relationship even if with my own teachers, that relationship ends up promoting more subdued views and working with others, leading to more fairness. It's the difference between being Kid Miracleman,  full of power and bored, or Superman, who looks at people compassionately and with love precisely because he is the most powerful being in the universe. Give people power and it will show their character, but let people think they have power and see similar results until they meet someone with actual power. An actual man with power is often the most humble of them all. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

Here is a very good op-ed from Al-Jazeera about how the green sustainability economy isn't a good idea--and it's not because it's a bad thing itself, it's because of the current state of capitalism and the current structure that elaborates on the tragedy of the commons. 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/hipster-vegan-green-tech-economy-sustainable-190605105120654.html

 

This to me is what the real left in the contemporary world begins to look like, not the insufferable urban bleeding liberal guilt tripping others for not volunteering at a soup kitchen or being vegan and using hemp products. To me, the left and true anarchists organize very well around community. 

[MooNiNite]

What about historical Daoist figures? Do any of them align left?

I think Lao Tzu is pretty much out of the question, because many of his quotes are anti-government/taxes, but what about Confucius? Or any other major figures?

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

6 hours ago, dawei said:

 

 

I would therefore say I have no idea what "left" and "right" means.  

 

Left means you have no name, no identity.

Right means you have identity and the choices that come with it.

 

Its ego vs no-ego. Freedom of choice and identity vs collective giving and the destruction of self.

 

I personally don't think either is a way of finding balance, so you need both.

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, MooNiNite said:

I think Lao Tzu is pretty much out of the question, because many of his quotes are anti-government/taxes, but what about Confucius? Or any other major figures?

 

Mozi, believe it or not, has some views that sound like proto-communism as one of my academic friends in Korea jokingly describes him. Not the fun kind, mind you, but the eyebrow-rasing kind. 

[gendao]

17 hours ago, joeblast said:

It was why I had a good hard laugh when some folks out there had a problem with Trump's proposal to clean up the plastic island in the pacific - why, an ecosystem's sprung up around it, and we'd kill it off if we cleaned it up! 

 

I'm all for a clean environment, and contrary to what some might think, I'm also the type of guy who picks up trash when he goes on a hike.

 

But the problem is I looked into James Hansen's soul and saw it was corrupt, and there's been such a focus on the conjecture, at the expense of real environmental efforts.

Well, I'm glad he proposed that...but only because it's not on American turf and so does not impede American business/convenience.
 

Whereas back at the ranch, he is just another textbook Republichristian colonialist who simply views Nature as an inexhaustible resource to domesticate, own, gleefully plunder and profit from.  He is a developer, after all...  His aide even reversed the ban on lead bullets in wildlife reserves, for gawdsakes!

 

I mean, government regulations and the EPA all fall wayyyy short of truly stewarding the land...but something is still better than nothing!  And before they were created, colonialist coastal settlers typically simply dumped all their trash straight into the ocean (up until 1934 in NYC)!   And when the EPA was created in 1970, the US had looked like this:

So when Trump wants to "MAGA" by stripping all these environmental regulations back...this is what he wants to recreate!

 

In the larger picture, Left & Right are still both merely subsets of the same materialist colonialists, both following the same basic path of Man/Machine Vs Nature.

Quote

The "life path" established by the Great Spirit divides into the lower, narrow path of continuous Life in harmony with nature and the wide upper road of white man's scientific achievements. The bar between the paths, above the cross, is the coming of white men; the Cross is that of Christianity. The circle below the cross represents the continuous Path of Life.
The short line that returns to the straight Path of Life is the last chance for people to turn back to nature before the upper road disintegrates and dissipates. The small circle above the Path of Life, after the last chance, is the Great Purification, after which corn will grow in abundance again when the Great Spirit returns. And the Path of Life continues forever...

MAGA?  That would actually require taking the Path of Life again like before the arrival of Christian colonialism...

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by gendao

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

A shorter version of a longer piece I've been writing summarized here: the tendency to do "cultivation practices" is one thing, but the degree of quality is another. With the inherent nature of the Internet and some people making themselves self-proclaimed masters through YouTube videos and pirated PDFs who dislike the structure of formal tutelage, is it still surprising that the somewhat esoteric practices of varying quality also invites the conspiracists?

 

Let's say you have someone who is open to these esoteric discussions and philosophies. She may be interested because she read a few books in college and decided to do a Reiki workshop, then joins an online board and gets introduced to some people of a similar bent. Her openness to the metaphysical and what is also very personal does not correlate to being balanced, because she decides she's going to buy into a lot of conspiracy theories that make absolutely no sense.

 

What these conspiracies and these esoteric practices have in common are 1) no verification of actual value, 2) feeling of belonging to a cool kids' club of people in the know who defy the established norms and paradigms, 3) questioning or challenging those views and values is the same as discussing religion, as both are held sacred. For the esoteric influence, the only way to look at that for me is look at the fruits borne of their practice in character, health, and skill. For the conspiracy views, look at how much suspension of disbelief they need to carry and start believing is reality. 

 

In other words, if they're going to believe in qi and telekinesis, what's to stop them from believing in unfounded conspiracies like pizzagate? 

 

This is why years ago I liked the forum because it gave one of the four pillars important to any cultivator: community. The other pillars are good teacher, good system, good lineage, and the fifth pillar is good student. Due to the nature of my own work, community is lacking because I'm always hopping countries, and the Philippines is the longest place I've been stationed in for the past four years, which makes community organization interesting as the more one goes deeper into rooting, the better their ties to a community become and stronger the foundation for any work mobilizing things (PM me for all interested in stories as the rest is too sensitive to discuss here).

 

ADDENDUM:

 

So in short--believing in esoteric practices and doing them can strengthen one's existing ideological bent and fuels a lot of the conspiracies promoted here, reinforced by their belief in the power of their cultivation, often with poor barometers to test skill, character, and fruits of the practice if not an outright absence of them. It may feel more egalitarian, yet they seem to enjoy a strong man approach, whereas they seem to fear that in a formal tutelage relationship even if with my own teachers, that relationship ends up promoting more subdued views and working with others. It's the difference between being Kid Miracleman,  full of power and bored, or Superman, who looks at people compassionately and with love precisely because he is the most powerful being in the universe. Give people power and it will show their character, but let people think they have power and see similar results until they meet someone with actual power. An actual man with power is often the most humble of them all. 

 

You've touched on something that I'd like to comment on.

I suspect my comments will be unpopular among some but I feel it's something that needs to be said.

 

If your spiritual practice is bringing you closer to others and causing you to feel more empathy towards those less fortunate and more vulnerable, they are working. If you feel more open to others, especially those that once generated feelings of aversion, what a blessing! If you look for and find fault in your own positions and actions preferentially, rather than looking to reinforce your beliefs and cut down those of others, you are making progress. Congratulations and keep up the good work.

 

If you find yourself able to tolerate, let alone support, policies and ideology that scapegoat the vulnerable, cause harm to or withhold assistance for the weak, and put up barriers to closer connection with others, particularly neighbors; your practices are failing, you are not experiencing the expected result. You are either engaged in practices that are not effective for your individual spiritual needs, you are not practicing correctly, or your practices are corrupt. Either give up the facade of being interested in spiritual growth or connect with a credible master who can guide you.

 

I almost never attempt to sound authoritative.

Here I make an exception.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

 

You've touched on something that I'd like to comment on.

I suspect my comments will be unpopular among some but I feel it's something that needs to be said.

 

If your spiritual practice is bringing you closer to others and causing you to feel more empathy towards those less fortunate and more vulnerable, they are working. If you feel more open to others, especially those that once generated feelings of aversion, what a blessing! If you look for and find fault in your own positions and actions preferentially, rather than looking to reinforce your beliefs and cut down those of others, you are making progress. Congratulations and keep up the good work.

 

If you find yourself able to tolerate, let alone support, policies and ideology that scapegoat the vulnerable, cause harm to or withhold assistance for the weak, and put up barriers to closer connection with others, particularly neighbors; your practices are failing, you are not experiencing the expected result. You are either engaged in practices that are not effective for your individual spiritual needs, you are not practicing correctly, or your practices are corrupt. Either give up the facade of being interested in spiritual growth or connect with a credible master who can guide you.

 

I almost never attempt to sound authoritative.

Here I make an exception.

 

 

 

Beautiful. The only thing I can add to what you've said is "Amen". 

[ilumairen]

18 hours ago, sean said:

 

The political terms "left" and "right" have an actual meaning.

 

 

If it has not already occurred (I haven't read ahead) could somebody explain what these actual meanings are? Because all I've actually experienced were labels placed upon me by individuals who disagreed with some idea I set forth, or question I've asked, and the terms seem anything but clearly defined to me.

 

[sean]

1 hour ago, steve said:

If your spiritual practice is bringing you closer to others and causing you to feel more empathy towards those less fortunate and more vulnerable, they are working. If you feel more open to others, especially those that once generated feelings of aversion, what a blessing! If you look for and find fault in your own positions and actions preferentially, rather than looking to reinforce your beliefs and cut down those of others, you are making progress. Congratulations and keep up the good work.

 

If you find yourself able to tolerate, let alone support, policies and ideology that scapegoat the vulnerable, cause harm to or withhold assistance for the weak, and put up barriers to closer connection with others, particularly neighbors; your practices are failing, you are not experiencing the expected result. You are either engaged in practices that are not effective for your individual spiritual needs, you are not practicing correctly, or your practices are corrupt. Either give up the facade of being interested in spiritual growth or connect with a credible master who can guide you.

 

I almost never attempt to sound authoritative.

Here I make an exception.

 

❤️

 

[MooNiNite]

7 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Mozi, believe it or not, has some views that sound like proto-communism as one of my academic friends in Korea jokingly describes him. Not the fun kind, mind you, but the eyebrow-rasing kind. 

 

Any examples? 

[MooNiNite]

6 hours ago, gendao said:

MAGA?  That would actually require taking the Path of Life again like before the arrival of Christian colonialism..

Because of course only Christian colonialism could move humanity into the industrial era. 

Those pure harmonious native people would never figure out or move forward with technology, because of their love of nature huh? 

After all, only white people and Christians don't innately follow the "Path of Life". Lets ignore every single non-christian country on earth in the doing most of the polluting in today's world.

 

 

[sean]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

I suppose I am  a lefty  .... is an Aussie lefty the same as an American one ?

 

100%. In fact, I apologize for often centering my politics on a U.S. perspective. I can be a dumb-dumb American like that. I try to stay knowledgeable of important international issues and trends. But I'm also already completely overwhelmed with how much cruelty and injustice is happening in my own country. 😞

 

Quote

What else ....   I done a bit of eco protests .... we took 'magic to the forest' , it was fairly successful , one day the loggers turned up with heavy machinery  to remove the barricades we had built overnight   ... I painted  Necronomicon  and spirit sigils all over it .  I wasnt there in the morning but someone else told me the bulldozer driver freaked out  " Thats it, I have had my equipment sabotaged , piss bombs dropped on me,  the road blocked everyday and now THIS , (pointed at  sigils)  I'm not putting up with THAT shit ! "  and went home !

 

 

😆 Great story. I love witchcraft as activism.

 

Sean

 

[sean]

Speaking of Alan Moore, he was on one of my favorite podcasts last month:

 

 

[thelerner]

Yo, buddy, long time no read.

 

I consider myself an independent that leans democratic.   Its good to have the 2 parties get there 'turn', cleaning up each others messes,  in the hopes we can get the best of both.   I prefer the most pragmatic leader. 

 

As a businessman, numbers have to add up.  You can't continually live off borrowed money, budgets can't continually run deficits, the government can't play Santa Claus or politicians who pretend to be.  Capitalism(with all its problems) has gotten more people out of poverty then any charity or such system).

 

Yet I am also a human.  A very fortunate one.  This nation is too rich and hopefully to thoughtful to have so many poor and destitute.  I don't want it to become a two tier nation of have and have nots.  I support a stronger social safety net.   The US has been falling disgracefully low amongst other first world countries in terms of education and health.  We can do so much better. 

 

I don't know about Medicare for all, but it'd be nice to have an inexpensive buy in.  It'd be nice to have a national agenda to work on long term stagnant poverty/homelessness.. training, counseling and housing for work, shouldn't be radical. 

 

As far as the board goes, I'm sorry its descended into such hyper-partisan politics.  It wasn't meant to be that way.  imo the board shouldn't be a drop off point for Huffington Post, Breitbart or Alex Jones articles. I fear as the election gets closer, it will get worse.  I'd like to see political crap/propaganda segregated back to Hundun.   Both sides are guilty here but lately the right wingers have become  ascendant thus we're seeing more conspiracy theories and pics of Pepe the frog. 

 

This shouldn't become a political site and definitely not a hyper-partisan one, filled with echo chambers.  I'd prefer the worst threads sent to Hundun; to continue there, and perhaps gentle reminders to people that this is a Philosophy site.  Save the heated rhetoric for a more appropriate site.   This one is for eclectic practices and philosophy.

 

It's at its best when its a community that communicates and shares, not brow beat and scream.

 

Course that's just my opinion and ideal, others undoubtedly differ.  Ooouhmnnn

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by thelerner

[Zork]

23 hours ago, sean said:

 

The political terms "left" and "right" have an actual meaning.

Do they? They are just labels that mean different things in different countries.

Most people have opinions that mix ideologies, and come to think of it, why shouldn't they?

I don't care about left and right, I oppose corrupt and stupid wherever that leads me.

 

By the way, what should a taoist believe politically?

True taoists aren't right or left.

Sure, taoist utopia looks like a communist ideal society but the only sure way to fail reaching it is through a communist revolution.

[sean]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

Yo, buddy, long time no read.

 

👋 Howdy. It's been too long.

 

Going to riff a bit from your post but don't feel like this is all directed at you or anything.

 

While I think capitalism was historical progress from feudalism, I find it sad when people settle into capitalism as some kind of naturally occurring zenith of human civilization.

 

Capitalism is structurally incapable of offering solutions to critical problems of exploitation, monopoly/monopsony, inequality, and environmental devastation.

 

Socialism aims to secure the advances of capitalism without these disastrous inconsistencies.

 

A recent U.N. report estimated that 40 million people are living in poverty in the United States, nearly 19 million of them in extreme poverty. The U.S. is one of the wealthiest capitalist countries in the world. If this were a report about the Soviet Union during the cold war, it would be used as clear evidence that communism is an abject failure.

 

Reducing poverty is not a goal of capitalism. It's an incidental byproduct at best, and arguably only correlated not causative (e.g. industrialization seems more directly causal and need not be capitalist). Capitalism also creates and inherently perpetuates poverty. Native Americans were not in poverty before colonization.

 

The trouble with trying to remain categorically middle-of-the-road is when you don't realize the entire road has been shifting beneath you in a single direction for 40 years.

 

Both U.S. political parties have effectively converged on the same right-wing, neoliberal core that Reagan was peddling. It's in the capitalist class interest to keep proletariat focus on inflammatory culture wars and away from this fact.

 

Outside of some softball, corporate-friendly, identity politicking, the Democratic Party has drifted only rightward for several decades. They're in no way inculpable for the rise of Trumpism. Democratic Party ghouls abandoned labor and left-wing politics in the 70s, escalating the decimation of hard-won unions. A once pro-working class party quietly morphed into a party by, and for, elite professionals. The fallout has been a poorer and increasingly disempowered working class more easily captivated by racial resentment narratives (amongst other misdirected conspiracy theories) and now without even financial motivations to vote socially.

 

If the grotesque insincerity of center-right Democrats (e.g. Clinton and Obama) is the reason that anyone reading this has hitched to the neoreactionary Trump dump-truck, please find a local shaman to unbind this rotten hex. There's a better and much more magical way forward.

 

❤️

 

Sean

 

[ralis]

Yesterday I described my political views as being one of progressive/left which hardly defines my point of view. 

 

My understanding of altruistic biology (E.O. Wilson) has informed my view as to how species evolve and survive in a cooperative manner. Wilson's research findings are contrary to the "survival of the fittest" belief system which was a popular pseudo scientific which was popularized by Herbert Spencer and fell out of favor in the mid 20th Century , a belief which Charles Darwin never postulated.

 

Wilson has pointed out that all species evolve as a group in which it is imperative that our species set aside pettiness and cooperate not only among ourselves, but with all species. After all, cooperation is built into our genetic structure as a result of evolutionary social group interaction. Current research has left no doubt in my mind that the planetary biosphere is in the early phase of the 6th mass extinction, and is aptly termed the Anthropocene epoch. Human caused environmental destruction! 

 

http://www.anthropocene.info

 

 

 

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, sean said:

 

👋 Howdy. It's been too long.

 

Going to riff a bit from your post but don't feel like this is all directed at you or anything.

 

While I think capitalism was historical progress from feudalism, I find it sad when people settle into capitalism as some kind of naturally occurring zenith of human civilization.

 

Capitalism is structurally incapable of offering solutions to critical problems of exploitation, monopoly/monopsony, inequality, and environmental devastation.

 

Socialism aims to secure the advances of capitalism without these disastrous inconsistencies.

 

A recent U.N. report estimated that 40 million people are living in poverty in the United States, nearly 19 million of them in extreme poverty. The U.S. is one of the wealthiest capitalist countries in the world. If this were a report about the Soviet Union during the cold war, it would be used as clear evidence that communism is an abject failure.

 

Reducing poverty is not a goal of capitalism. It's an incidental byproduct at best, and arguably only correlated not causative (e.g. industrialization seems more directly causal and need not be capitalist). Capitalism also creates and inherently perpetuates poverty. Native Americans were not in poverty before colonization.

 

The trouble with trying to remain categorically middle-of-the-road is when you don't realize the entire road has been shifting beneath you in a single direction for 40 years.

 

Both U.S. political parties have effectively converged on the same right-wing, neoliberal core that Reagan was peddling. It's in the capitalist class interest to keep proletariat focus on inflammatory culture wars and away from this fact.

 

Outside of some softball, corporate-friendly, identity politicking, the Democratic Party has drifted only rightward for several decades. They're in no way inculpable for the rise of Trumpism. Democratic Party ghouls abandoned labor and left-wing politics in the 70s, escalating the decimation of hard-won unions. A once pro-working class party quietly morphed into a party by, and for, elite professionals. The fallout has been a poorer and increasingly disempowered working class more easily captivated by racial resentment narratives (amongst other misdirected conspiracy theories) and now without even financial motivations to vote socially.

 

If the grotesque insincerity of center-right Democrats (e.g. Clinton and Obama) is the reason that anyone reading this has hitched to the neoreactionary Trump dump-truck, please find a local shaman to unbind this rotten hex. There's a better and much more magical way forward.

 

❤️

 

Sean

 

 

Well stated!

 

Since Reagan and the neoliberal crowd took over, upwards of 7 trillion dollars has been taken from the middle class and redistributed to the upper 1%. And, yet if anyone states that taxes should be raised on the 1%, then the reactionary right-wing shouts a deafening cry that redistribution of wealth is a communist plot. What the hell happened to critical thinking?

[rideforever]

Such censorship that is being proposed will lead to what ?  Nothing good.

Now's your chance ... anyone with a long-running grievance get in here and say what manner of censorship or deletion you would like.

People wish to stay silent out of respect.   That is not respect, it means you have no respect for the audience, or you fear.

Perhaps you fear the owner because he is in a bad mood and will delete you at the touch of a button.

Such respect you are given.

Shall the members crawl on their bellies then.

Let's see how people react after all the big talk around here, anyone still standing upright?

Others wish to define collectivism as the ultimate positive virtue.  Well that is certainly not the view of a large number of individualist sages who left town to be with just a few people.  

And there are yet others who saw no difference between strife and harmony, as long as it could be used.

Here, there are threads for many unpopular political opinions ... people engage as they wish, easily, and if they do not wish, then they do not.

 

[rideforever]

On the subject of conspiracy theories, Chomsky mentioned at the start wrote a book called "Manufacturing Consent" amongst others.

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Such censorship that is being proposed will lead to what ?  Nothing good.

Now's your chance ... anyone with a long-running grievance get in here and say what manner of censorship or deletion you would like.

People wish to stay silent out of respect.   That is not respect, it means you have no respect for the audience, or you fear.

Perhaps you fear the owner because he is in a bad mood and will delete you at the touch of a button.

Such respect you are given.

Shall the members crawl on their bellies then.

Let's see how people react after all the big talk around here, anyone still standing upright?

Others wish to define collectivism as the ultimate positive virtue.  Well that is certainly not the view of a large number of individualist sages who left town to be with just a few people.  

And there are yet others who saw no difference between strife and harmony, as long as it could be used.

Here, there are threads for many unpopular political opinions ... people engage as they wish, easily, and if they do not wish, then they do not.

 

 

In case you are not aware, racism in all forms, anti-Semitism, misogyny are all based on hate. This forum is not a platform for such vitriolic expression. There has been enough of such talk here!

[Michael Sternbach]

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

Do they? They are just labels that mean different things in different countries.

 

I'd be interested to learn the OP's definition of these terms.

 

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

Most people have opinions that mix ideologies, and come to think of it, why shouldn't they?

 

I occasionally find myself agreeing both to statements expressed by left wingers and right wingers. However, I am not sure if that means I am 'mixing ideologies'. I simply have my own belief system, that I try to keep more or less coherent. Identifying it with either  left or right perspectives doesn't seem to work for me.

 

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

I don't care about left and right, I oppose corrupt and stupid wherever that leads me.

 

By the way, what should a taoist believe politically?

True taoists aren't right or left.

Sure, taoist utopia looks like a communist ideal society but the only sure way to fail reaching it is through a communist revolution.

 

I once talked about that with Marblehead (RIP). He was of the opinion that Daoists in general and Chuangtzu in particular were rather conservative and therefore politically on the right side.

 

Personally, I see Daoism as essentially anarchistic and therefore not inherently supportive of any existing kind of political system. A truly Daoist system would actually be a 'non-system' as outlined in various chapters of the DDJ.

 

The only kind of 'revolution' that could help to truly establish it would be dissociation with national interests altogether on the level of the individual and identification with the cosmos at large. In other words, it would be a revolution in consciousness.

 

However, things being the way they are, it is safe to say that we can't do without political systems per se. Even though it should be remembered that any such system will simply be expressing the collective views of a majority of people. A majority that constantly lives in a state of delusion or 'maya', as all spiritual traditions assure us.

[sean]

16 minutes ago, ralis said:

In case you are not aware, racism in all forms, anti-Semitism, misogyny are all based on hate. This forum is not a platform for such vitriolic expression. There has been enough of such talk here!

 

💯

 

There's a popular notion that the only civilized approach to social disagreement is to always hear out "all sides" in the "free marketplace of ideas", an imaginary immaterial abstraction. That opinions, no matter how brain-dead stupid or toxic, should always be honored and meticulously ironed out via public "intellectual" debate.

 

But this kind of free speech absolutism is often a pretentious stance weaponized to platform memetic bigotry and silence already marginalized views.

 

By extreme analogy, imagine if there were pro-slavery members on this forum. My stance is that it's a complete waste of time to argue with these people. It would pollute our space with the delusion that both sides of this "debate" are legitimate.

 

Speech is not harmless. Speech has real, immediate, direct, material consequences on other human beings. Implicitly allowing socially toxic rhetoric to continue platforming itself unchecked in a space, poisons that space, and disproportionately harms the least powerful.

 

Sean

 

[doc benway]

Ahhh, I feel like a cool, fresh breeze is blowing through the board and I can breathe.

 

Thanks Sean

Edited July 26, 2019 by steve