Are there any other leftists here? 👀

[sean]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

Perhaps I was being a little harsh but most of the people I see who call themselves anarchist and/or communists are Antifa types who when you pull off the black balaclava turn out to be spotty students who live with their parents.  They are LARPing basically and to no good end.

 

But this is the same argument against used against every generation of protest.

 

5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And (even more puzzling to me) how is anarchy leftist?

 

This has come up a few times now along with requests to define left and right. I think this is where some Google-fu will serve you better. Volumes have been written about these subjects far more articulate than I could ever hope. Wikipedia is not a bad starting point.

 

Anarchism

Left-wing politics
 

Sean

 

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Thank you for the sharing.. but there are things I'm more confused about than I was before. 

 

Such as how do you believe Mccarthyism applies to the way people view the left? And what people?

 

And (even more puzzling to me) how is anarchy leftist?

 

Anarcho-communism was a significant movement in the Spanish Civil war period - many of them fought against Franco's fascists but in the end were screwed by their own 'comrades' from the soviet communist side.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Apech

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Please explain the context?

 

In the old Trump thread, soo many times when I thought to share observations or ask questions..

 

You chased me out as surely as rideforever did when I took your talk of the patriarchy seriously.. 

 

I am a woman and a laborer, and yet I couldn't find an ounce of the compassion you espoused for either. It was disheartening, and apparently I have not completely processed this yet..

 

Soo many big and valiant words... a veritable forest of them...

 

If you want to get real and actually connect ralis, I'm here, but i'm not soo very interested in the ideals when they fail to express in actual interaction.

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, sean said:

 

But this is the same argument against used against every generation of protest.

 

 

This has come up a few times now along with requests to define left and right. I think this is where some Google-fu will serve you better. Volumes have been written about these subjects far more articulate than I could ever hope. Wikipedia is not a bad starting point.

 

Anarchism

Left-wing politics
 

Sean

 

 

In the US maybe but not everywhere.

[rideforever]

No political idea has ever been implemented, ever.

Why ?  Because the catastrophic lack of intelligence and consciousness of human beings ensures that every idea is twisted and betrayed before it ever goes into society, and there are so many people drying to hurt each other, and trip each other up that nothing ever ever results. 

These words that people use, capitalism socialism communism and all that ... it's a joke like everything else here.

Nobody could even say what would result from any of these because they have never been tried, you would have to be sane to try something.

The big joke is that humans continue to talk about what they understand and what should be done and what they think was done!

That, is funny.

Comedy is the only thing humans can do.

In society there are continuous narratives about what is happening and what should or shouldn't be done.

I hope someone is laughing, because nobody knows anything.

Not only that, after 10000 years of falling on their face ... they don't sense anything is wrong.

This is never ever ever going to end, even the cows can programme the vcr by now.

Anyway ... don't let that stop you !!!!

[doc benway]

21 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

It's the polar opposite for me.

 

Steve, you should honestly ask yourself why you'd feel like you can suddenly breathe, when there's essentially talk of banning (or otherwise disallowing) those whose opinions you disagree with, and only allowing those of a certain opinion to express their thoughts. Falsely labeling the other side as "socially toxic", etc...or "racist" as ralis did, without a smidgen of proof of such.

These are not things that should cause a person to breathe more easily.

 

So many ways to respond here but I'll try to be brief.

 

First, thank you for bringing up this point. It is an important one. Yes, I've engaged with this question for many years, especially so since 2016. I gave it some consideration again after reading your post in the present context. I don't think there is much value in sharing my conclusions. They're really only meaningful for me. Each of us needs to look at this for ourselves. I've got nothing you haven't already heard if you participate in political discussions and sharing is unlikely to be of much value to either of us.

 

Second, since you've already posted your conclusions and presumptions about my position on censorship and exclusion, I won't bother with that either. I simply posted something I was genuinely feeling in the moment. Your response was to invalidate and negate my experience while using that to further support and defend your own position. This is how we tend to "communicate" in political discussion. Nothing I'm interested in engaging with. This is a major reason I stay out of the political threads entirely. My practice goes in the opposite direction - question my own position, try to break down my own story rather than reify it at another's expense.

 

Finally, the loud and obnoxious right wing rhetoric that blossomed here in 2016 has made the board feel claustrophobic and foreign to me. I've read a lot of crazy shit here over the years but nothing as mean and dangerous as what I've seen in the current political threads. While it's easy to stay out of the political discussion, it is difficult to not be affected by it. Seeing the abject lack of compassion, the harsh indifference to suffering, and the willful ignorance in people who claim interest in spiritual practice and growth has been disappointing and somewhat horrifying for me. Hence, to see someone like Sean lead a bit of charge to counterbalance the extreme right wing invective that's dominated the tenor on this board for 3 years has been a true breath of fresh air for me. 

 

Peace y'all

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sean]

3 hours ago, Chang said:

I think that we have to face the fact that Socialism is a form of insanity and that its adherents are sufferers.

 

No one:  ...

Chang: Socialists are crazy, I'll tell you what! ... continues rambling ... and women! Don't even get me started on women ... white men something something ... but after my wife left me ... weird throat clearing noises .... and now cultural Marxism, am I right? They've completely taken over ... mumbling, doddering away, yelling at Muslim kids to get off his lawn.

 

[ilumairen]

12 minutes ago, sean said:

 

No one:  ...

Chang: Socialists are crazy, I'll tell you what! ... continues rambling ... and women! Don't even get me started on women ... white men something something ... but after my wife left me ... weird throat clearing noises .... and now cultural Marxism, am I right? They've completely taken over ... mumbling, doddering away, yelling at Muslim kids to get off his lawn.

 

 

Unless it's the haiku chain, I tend to avoid Chang (what with me being a woman and all), so after reading this I wandered back to his post to see what he was getting on about this time in regard to women.. only I didn't see anything about women in the post.. 

 

Yes, the caricature would be accurate regarding posts I could easily find.. but not here. 

 

And, in regard to (an overall) this, am I allowed to ask, "where the hell have you been?"

[thelerner]

Thing is the same word means different things to different people/ideologies.

 

I say Socialism, I mean Canadian style or Norway/Sweden.. European.  In the U.S socialism means Social Security, Medicare a whole host of services for the poor.  Programs to spread education, better housing, care for the pregnant, indigent.. The whole extensive Social Work programs that go on in most cities.  Paid by local and federal budgets.

 

I think on Right, you hear socialism, you think Socialism- Venezuela, USSR, North Korea, Cuba.. places where the government takes control of production and planning.  Which then slides into suffocating dictatorship and loss of rights and freedoms.  Group think, Officially sanctioned PC run amuck.

 

Big difference in how we hear and interpret the word. 

 

The Lefts socialism can slide into Rights definition if it forgets to pay its bills and offers too much bread and circus.  But it doesn't have to.  When it works, having a good social net, brings equity and happier life to the people.   I think Capitalism unreined, without heart, leads to Feudalism, where the rich live well and the middle class and poor are devastated.  

 

The U.S is both.  Our socialist programs improve and save peoples lives.  They are something to be proud.  There's always a sweet spot though. 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Thing is the same word means different things to different people/ideologies.

 

I say Socialism, I mean Canadian style or Norway/Sweden.. European.  In the U.S socialism means Social Security, Medicare a whole host of services for the poor.  Programs to spread education, better housing, care for the pregnant, indigent.. The whole extensive Social Work programs that go on in most cities.  Paid by local and federal budgets.

 

I think on Right, you hear socialism, you think Socialism- Venezuela, USSR, North Korea, Cuba.. places where the government takes control of production and planning.  Which then slides into suffocating dictatorship and loss of rights and freedoms.  Group think, Officially sanctioned PC run amuck.

 

Technically state ownership of the means of production is Socialism - while Canada, Norway and Sweden are capitalist countries with social democratic governments which is basically tax and redistribute through public services.

 

 

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Big difference in how we hear and interpret the word. 

 

The Lefts socialism can slide into Rights definition if it forgets to pay its bills and offers too much bread and circus.  But it doesn't have to.  When it works, having a good social net, brings equity and happier life to the people.   I think Capitalism unreined, without heart, leads to Feudalism, where the rich live well and the middle class and poor are devastated.  

 

The U.S is both.  Our socialist programs improve and save peoples lives.  They are something to be proud.  There's always a sweet spot though. 

 

All western democracies are capitalist with social programmes - all that varies is the balance - with the US being on the low end of the scale with respect to social programmes like healthcare.

[thelerner]

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Technically state ownership of the means of production is Socialism - while Canada, Norway and Sweden are capitalist countries with social democratic governments which is basically tax and redistribute through public services.

 

 

 

All western democracies are capitalist with social programmes - all that varies is the balance - with the US being on the low end of the scale with respect to social programmes like healthcare.

Exactly and that was my point.  The left thinks of Socialism as Capitalism with social programmes- tax & redistribute.  When the Right hears the word Socialism, they think state ownership of production, a very very close cousin of Communism.

 

I agree when you say we're on the low end w/ respect to social programmes, which is a 2 edged sword.  It makes the U.S prosperous, yet behind other countries in many key metrics education, health and happiness.

 

A dear neighbor of mine was born in Cuba.  She raged against any mention of Socialism.  To her, it meant thugs that took everything you had, beat you half to death once, then again if you complained.  Being a doctor she hated Obama care for the possibility it could be a slippery slope towards anything socialist. 

 

 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

Exactly and that was my point.  The left thinks of Socialism as Capitalism with social programmes- tax & redistribute.  When the Right hears the word Socialism, they think state ownership of production, a very very close cousin of Communism.

 

I agree when you say we're on the low end w/ respect to social programmes, which is a 2 edged sword.  It makes the U.S prosperous, yet behind other countries in many key metrics education, health and happiness.

 

A dear neighbor of mine was born in Cuba.  She raged against any mention of Socialism.  To her, it meant thugs that took everything you had, beat you half to death once, then again if you complained.  Being a doctor she hated Obama care for the possibility it could be a slippery slope towards anything socialist. 

 

 

 

 

Ah sorry I missed your point.

 

Its interesting that you say being on the low end makes the US prosperous ... while I think the original idea of welfare in the UK anyway was to educate, house, keep healthy and so on the workers -which would make them more productive and thus create more wealth - if this ever happened I don't know - but I know the early examples of this kind of thing in the 19th Century were exactly this - philanthropic mill owners and so on.  At the end of the day its hard to imagine how someone being chronically sick and unable to work benefits anyone at all.  I still find it staggering that there is no form of universal health care in the US - I can't see who is gaining from that.

 

 

[C T]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I can't see who is gaining from that.

 

 

 

The most controversial source of excess spending, though, is rent-seeking by health-care firms. This is when companies extract outsize profits relative to the capital they deploy and risks they take. Schumpeter has estimated the scale of gouging across the health-care system. Although it does not explain the vast bulk of America’s overspending, the sums are big by any other standard, with health-care firms making excess profits of $65bn a year. Surprisingly, the worst offenders are not pharmaceutical firms but an army of corporate health-care middlemen. (The Economist - March '18) 

[thelerner]

This isn't exactly Seans house, its more like his coffee shop.  He created it, kept it alive and thriving in its early years.  Picked good people to run it in his absence.  That's no easy feat.  These forums, come..peak..and die.  This one has thrived.  It's been a good community.   Hyper partisanship becoming our top threads is hurting that.  Instead of ideas, its filled with attacks, leading to bitterness and bad feelings.  

 

Coming back he seems to see the politicization as bad.  Admittedly from a left wing perspective.  Its a feeling many on the board have had.  Dialing back some of the politics on all sides, sounds good to me. There are better boards for it, I assume. 

 

Bottom line, his site, his rules.  He's a good guy, got some wisdom.  I trust him.

[C T]

I suppose it didn't help matters much when admin chimed in with his personal political preferences. Some may've misunderstood that to mean consent, began to form wild assumptions, lost sight of decorum, and likely felt emboldened as time passed to raise their voices in an effort to prove their rightness. 

[ilumairen]

51 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Ah well that's an ad hominem attack and at least worthy of consideration for a ban.

 

What I'm curious about is if either of the now banned members knew who Sean was, and that his use of the word "dipshits" was not something one could respond in kind to without the repercussions they're now facing, or if they believed it to be just another "free for all" type thread in off topic, and just another member they were responding to in ways they've responded numerous times before without any repercussions.

 

[Pilgrim]

12 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

What I'm curious about is if either of the now banned members knew who Sean was, and that his use of the word "dipshits" was not something one could respond in kind to without the repercussions they're now facing, or if they believed it to be just another "free for all" type thread in off topic, and just another member they were responding to in ways they've responded numerous times before without any repercussions.

 

It is my opinion they had no idea whom they were fucking with.

 

Windwalker is retired army and respects chain of command and had he knew I believe he would have stifled himself out of respect for the owner the other one no idea.

 

When I read the warning Sean was in a mood  I thought oh shit I hope no one is stupid enough to take him on. He is pissed and looking down a barrel.

 

I do hope Sean will give Windwalker a reprieve for the sake of humanity not his political views.

 

I as former Army have respect for vets especially Vietnam Era vets like Ralis and Windwalker these troops were in the shit and the system fucked them when they came home, hung our boys out to dry and left them with conditions like PTSD we are only now coming to terms with.

 

I believe Windwalker like many of us found a community here and he needs the human interaction.

 

I reckon some will say fuck him and good riddance to them I say.  Hope you never are considered that way. Karma is a real bitch and she is taking score.

 

I respect his fighting spirit, have disagreed with him plenty but all in all he is a decent Joe.

 

Dissenting voices are needed otherwise people can just walk around in circles going yep, yep, yep , nope, Nope, nope hope this site does not become another AYP.

[C T]

21 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

What I'm curious about is if either of the now banned members knew who Sean was, and that his use of the word "dipshits" was not something one could respond in kind to without the repercussions they're now facing, or if they believed it to be just another "free for all" type thread in off topic, and just another member they were responding to in ways they've responded numerous times before without any repercussions.

 

 

Could it be they were emboldened by restrained moderation for their lack of manners? 

Its good the voice of breitbart on TDB has been rested pending reviews, as per admin's announcement. 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, sean said:

 

I'm picturing my poor, black Marxist friends eye-rolling out of their head at the "privileged leftist" meme in 2019. We're attacked from both ends on this. When we figure out how to not die and pay our bills we're "champagne socialists". When we're poor and struggling we're lazy whiners just looking for a handout.

 

It sounds like you and I want the same things. I believe that the terms I use can still be living maps of where we're going and that renouncing them instead of updating them is part of why we never get there.

 

Sean
 

 

!

 

Man ... I been trying to get the commune to do that for over 30 years !

 

They had a charter   ( promise ) that in turn for  creating a company to  continue to NURTURE and DEVELOP  the original vision of the founders, they would sign over the land title papers . which we and they did .

 

NO ONE seems to understand what nurture and develop means !  They seem to think its like how some of them try to nurture and develop their children  ... that is  By trying to hold them in a non developing stasis and  cling to the old baby like an insecure mother .

 

And STILL  try to follow principles  put in place for 1978 ! 

 

 

(Same with magick and hermetics  ... peeps still be following occult teachings from Bible influenced post - Victorian Christian mystics with racist attitudes !    .... Which is why I into NEO-Hermetics      )

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Yes, it was absurd of me to ask if someone expressing apparent angst would like a hug.

 

WTF is wrong with me??? We're here to dig into our trenches, be outraged on behalf of others, and argue dagnabbit. Guess for a moment I forgot... 

 

I'd like a hug .

 

 

Wait .....   send a picture first .

[ilumairen]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

I'd like a hug .

 

 

Wait .....   send a picture first .

 

:throws a grape towards nungali's nose:

[Aetherous]

5 hours ago, steve said:

My practice goes in the opposite direction - question my own position

 

Honestly, it's primarily my hope that we all do this much better than we currently are. Might as well leave it at that.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Remember those old 1950s and 1960s exams in some colleges that essentially had you using a red pencil to color in all the communist countries on a map and reciting the domino effect Churchill warned about? 

...

 

I remember this  ... on one wall at catholic primary school was pics of  Mary Jesus Joseph 

 

on the other wall was a pic of the then Pope and   Chiang Kai-shek  - seriously !

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

 

Later in big school I learnt about Red China and China .  Then it was Mainland China  (as we traded more with them ),  and Formosa  then  'The people's republic of China '   ( Formosa sorta dissipated off the map ) and now .... ' China ' 

 

( Still bloody Red Commies though !   ... Ooops ... here comes the trade delegation  ...

 

 

 " Zǎoshang hǎo xiānshēng  " 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

What I'm curious about is if either of the now banned members knew who Sean was...

 

 

Theoretically, it shouldn´t matter -- the rules ought to be the same for everybody.  Would they be out if they´d called me a dipshit?  I can´t know for sure but judging from past experience I doubt it.  Even so, I think the right decision was made, at least in the case of Windwalker.  He´s been curmudgeonly and snide and sneakily hostile -- for years now.  The board may have been good for him but he has not been good for the board.  And it´s not simply that I disagree with his politics.  I often disagree just as strongly with other right-leaning Bums (Joeblast and Redcairo come to mind) whom I respect and consider friends.  

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I grew up in the 60's with an imminent threat called "The Red Scare" which is a crowd control technique. Living in that kind of fear of imminent nuclear attack, commies are living next door, socialism will reduce everyone to poverty with a dictatorship. That same fear is still an undercurrent here in the U.S.

 

If it weren't for socialist movements here in the U.S., Civil Rights, Voting Rights, social safety net programs would not exist were it not for progressive left movements. 

 

 

I didnt .  But I realised as a kid you guys did !

 

I watched an old corny movie about the Commies  invading USA from underground tunnels ..... coming out the road drains and manhole covers .... shooting lone citizens in their backyards while hanging up the washing , etc .

 

Even at that age I thought    WTF ?