Are there any other leftists here? 👀

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

Okay.  I think the place has quieted down.

 

Here's my question.  Can anybody tell me why we can't diagnose this obviously mentally sick man  out of office?  

 

 

 

 

 

Stockholm Syndrome?

[manitou]

23 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Stockholm Syndrome?

 

I laughed out loud at this clever response.  You made my day, Mr. Earl

Edited July 31, 2019 by manitou

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

I laughed out loud at this clever response.  You made my day, Mr. Earl

 

The pleasure is all mine, especially knowing you found momentary joy. We may not have communicated before, but I have followed your journey and your more challenging moments in life where you sought support here, and want you to know I'm one of the people who is glad you are here, glad you are still here, and glad you are okay as things get better. I never knew the forum would have this abrupt shift, but hey, it could happen in Washington, D.C. too, just like it did in Greece. 

 

Aashaa monetoo. 

[manitou]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Aashaa monetoo. 

 

  You possess an aura of beauty and compassion around your words. Thank you.  And I'm very glad to be meeting you now.  I'll have to look up Aashaa monetoo now.  Unless you want to tell me...

 

You may be causing my thinking to evolve even as we speak.  The Stockholm thing, to some extent, could very well figure into it.   Certainly the 'blunting Of outrage' must be one of the first steps in someone developing the willingness to be a participant rather than a hostage, or in this present communal-consciousness case, about one third of the U.S  is willing to go along with the current trajectory because of deep recesses within their heart that have never been dealt with from childhood imprints. Doesn't it seem as though our senses are being hammered day after day, one side of the earth and then the other?  What I question is the unintentionality of all of this.

 

 

 

 

[Walker]

On 7/29/2019 at 4:20 AM, lifeforce said:

 

Well, marxism and communism are leftist and we've all seen how ruthlessly authoritarian and murderous those ideologies can be.

China is now an Orwellian dystopian nightmare with it's social credit system and ultra-surveillance. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't wish to get into tit-for-tat arguments.

Over and out.

 

My man, China's "communist party" is about as communist as the PRC is the People's Republic.

 

I lived there for a loooooooong time. I've sat down with top students at top universities who are all forced to attend Marxism classes several nights a week, and have been since they were probably still in split pants (er, those're Chinese crotchless trousers for babies used in lieu of diapers... I digress). I have discovered that these kids do not know the word "alienation." With thousands of hours of forced "Marxist-Leninist-Maoist" indoctrination under their belts, they have never even heard of the concept. We get out the dictionary to double check that I have not misremembered the Chinese word for "alienation," and there it is in the dictionary, plain as day. We check it together and they look up at me quizzically and say, "no, we have never talked about this. Is this important? You learned about this when you studied Marxism in university?" That's always one of those moments where you can't laugh, you can't cry, you can't even shake your head, you just freeze and think, wowwwwwwwwwwwww, yall are fucked. 

 

My point is, whatever the direction the PRC is pointed it, it ain't leftwards, despite the propagandists' continued usage of words like "communism" and "socialism."

 

That said, I don't see much from the history of the last two centuries that leads me to believe that what the world needs will be found by emulating any of the grand communist experiments I know of. Somehow or other and in spite of my earlier prejudices I ended up more or less in the anarchist camp myself. I see it as especially compatible with a true spiritual path, perhaps so much so that the two may in some ways need one another, but I don't have the time or the wherewithall to try and make that point now. 

 

Took me a long time to wrap my mind around anarchism even with one in my family, even with the man James C. Scott (sorry about the name drop, but, 'chuknow...) himself giving me a copy of Anarchism in Action on some, "mix this into your Daoist soup, kid" shit. Anarchism is too often portrayed as just a big "anti" full of young kids who don't shower and like breaking shit, and therefore as an unsophisticated, shallow utopian fantasy for hypocritical malcontents. That my brother for a long time was militantly averse to underarm deodorant and serially heisted shopping carts full of bourgie groceries from Whole Foods, and failed to ever eloquently explain to me what the fuck he believed in (not that I was a particularly respectful listener back then, either) generally left me with the impression that anarchism is just some sort of love for chaos and liberated organic avocados. My bro grew up, though, and I read Anarchism in Action, and one thing led to another and I guess the philosophy really did end up mixed into my Daoist soup after all. Anyway, everything I know of it makes me pretty sure it only makes sense to place anarchism very firmly on the leftern "side," though I too agree that there is little value in boiling everything down to L v. R. You hand me the platform of a pre-"Southern Strategy" Republican and I'd probably find a good number of things I like on it. 

 

Still though, to the lefty left is for damn sure where I walk my walk, and where I remain despite being plenty aware that yessssssssssssssss, of course, the mainstream media feeds us lies and all that blahzay blahzay. Excuse my digression and my all caps, but yo, last time I checked, MOTHER JONES AND IN THESE TIMES AND ETC., ETC., ETC., HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT BEFORE THERE WAS EVEN AN INTERNET, AIGHT!? Like, um, here: Dear 21st century conspiradudes: We've been knowing that you can't trust everything the NYTimes tells you... So... Your point? Corporate media should be taken with a grain of salt? There are nefarious forces that wish to keep the man down? I dig. But this is news? Huh? To who, exactly? And the antidote to this revelation lies in "research" conducted via the YouTube algorithm, which, um, despite being a product of one of the wealthiest and most powerful corporations on earth, is somehow an undiluted source of accuracy and truth? Wuhhuhuhuhhhuhh? All this smells fishier than my lil bro's armpits circa his Oakland commune days, just sayinnnnn. I'd say more but I literally do not have the time to post walls of text day in day out and feast my eyes and ears on hours of "hidden truth" videos. What the fuck planet do you all live on and how is it that there are evidently 45 hours in your day? I can barely find time to get the trash out on time for the truck and make it to the grocery store around the way with discounted pineapples before closing time, much less read these excessively long Intercept articles and finish painting my oil portrait of AOC on a 3 meter tall canvas. Fuck if I'ma spend my precious downtime listening to mp3s of late nite AM radio, much as I do love aliens and shadow people. 

 

P.S., to anybody I have annoyed thus far with my SJW ways, would this avocado hummus lighten your mood? It possesses a most creamy texture. No no, I swear it is not stolen, it is merely fregan. Expiration dates are soooo shapeshifting Jewish lizard round earth cabal, knamean? Plus I'm pretty sure this mold contains DMT. 

 

Anyway, it is probably high time for me to shut up. In keeping with the spirit of the thread, while I seldom talk about politics here and don't particularly have any wish to change that (you can breathe your sigh of relief now), I'm standing up for this little role call. I'm dyed enough in the wool to have Crimethinc in my browser history and to sneak out at night to put up pro-HK graffiti (香港加油!!!). Hell, when Noam Chomsky Day came around in Captain Fantastic, I was like, oh shit, good idea, can't wait to have kids so I can subject them to this!

Edited July 31, 2019 by Walker

[sean]

4 hours ago, Walker said:

My man, China's "communist party" is about as communist as the PRC is the People's Republic.

...
My point is, whatever the direction the PRC is pointed it, it ain't leftwards, despite the propagandists' continued usage of words like "communism" and "socialism."

 

It's exhausting trying to deconstruct these narratives.

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

I have discovered that these kids do not know the word "alienation." With thousands of hours of forced "Marxist-Leninist-Maoist" indoctrination under their belts, they have never even heard of the concept.

 

Absolutely fascinating! Thank you for sharing this. What a striking concept to have missing.

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

That said, I don't see much from the history of the last two centuries that leads me to believe that what the world needs will be found by emulating any of the grand communist experiments I know of. Somehow or other and in spite of my earlier prejudices I ended up more or less in the anarchist camp myself. I see it as especially compatible with a true spiritual path, perhaps so much so that the two may in some ways need one another, but I don't have the time or the wherewithall to try and make that point now. 

 

Well said, I really resonate with this. Lately, I loosely identify as something like "anarcho-socialist" because, for me, I find the two form a more complete picture together than separate. I also feel like "why" might take a book-length wall of text to unpack.

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

Took me a long time to wrap my mind around anarchism even with one in my family, even with the man James C. Scott (sorry about the name drop, but, 'chuknow...) himself giving me a copy of Anarchism in Action on some, "mix this into your Daoist soup, kid" shit. Anarchism is too often portrayed as just a big "anti" full of young kids who don't shower and like breaking shit, and therefore as an unsophisticated, shallow utopian fantasy for hypocritical malcontents. That my brother for a long time was militantly averse to underarm deodorant and serially heisted shopping carts full of bourgie groceries from Whole Foods, and failed to ever eloquently explain to me what the fuck he believed in (not that I was a particularly respectful listener back then, either) generally left me with the impression that anarchism is just some sort of love for chaos and liberated organic avocados. My bro grew up, though, and I read Anarchism in Action, and one thing led to another and I guess the philosophy really did end up mixed into my Daoist soup after all.

 

Great story, thank you for sharing.

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

Anyway, everything I know of it makes me pretty sure it only makes sense to place anarchism very firmly on the leftern "side," though I too agree that there is little value in boiling everything down to L v. R. You hand me the platform of a pre-"Southern Strategy" Republican and I'd probably find a good number of things I like on it. 

 

Yep! I've lived in deep south Mississippi, where I met my wife in fact. I've conversed with anti-racist, pro-union, effectively left-anarchist grandfathers, though they would never identify as such.

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

Like, um, here: Dear 21st century conspiradudes: We've been knowing that you can't trust everything the NYTimes tells you... So... Your point? Corporate media should be taken with a grain of salt? There are nefarious forces that wish to keep the man down? I dig. But this is news? Huh? To who, exactly? And the antidote to this revelation lies in "research" conducted via the YouTube algorithm, which, um, despite being a product of one of the wealthiest and most powerful corporations on earth, is somehow an undiluted source of accuracy and truth? Wuhhuhuhuhhhuhh?

 

😆

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

What the fuck planet do you all live on and how is it that there are evidently 45 hours in your day? I can barely find time to get the trash out on time for the truck and make it to the grocery store around the way with discounted pineapples before closing time, much less read these excessively long Intercept articles and finish painting my oil portrait of AOC on a 3 meter tall canvas. Fuck if I'ma spend my precious downtime listening to mp3s of late nite AM radio, much as I do love aliens and shadow people. 

 

😂

 

4 hours ago, Walker said:

 I'm dyed enough in the wool to have Crimethinc in my browser history and to sneak out at night to put up pro-HK graffiti (香港加油!!!).

 

✊

 

Sean

 

 

[MegaMind]

When debating with these idiots about how socialism cannot work.

 

I point out how the Nordic countries which have socialized medicine and healthcare have the highest standard of living, and a well educated and healthy populace. 

 

When you don't spend more than Russia, China and the next top 30 countries combined on the military you can afford to educate and provide healthcare for your citizens. 

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/these-countries-have-the-highest-quality-of-life

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MooNiNite]

51 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

When debating with these idiots about how socialism cannot work.

 

I point out how the Nordic countries which have socialized medicine and healthcare have the highest standard of living, and a well educated and healthy populace. 

 

When you don't spend more than Russia, China and the next top 30 countries combined on the military you can afford to educate and provide healthcare for your citizens. 

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/these-countries-have-the-highest-quality-of-life

 

 

 

You're clearly not examining the extent of communism. A country that just has a socialist healthcare structure is much different than a full blown communist economy.

Edited July 31, 2019 by MooNiNite

[MegaMind]

9 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

 

You're clearly not examining the extent of communism. A country that just has a socialist healthcare structure is much different than a full blown communist economy.

 

I think you are projecting, I never mentioned communism.

[dawei]

59 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

When debating with these idiots about how socialism cannot work.

 

I point out how the Nordic countries which have socialized medicine and healthcare have the highest standard of living, and a well educated and healthy populace. 

 

I can't debate the realm of countries as x, y, or z... but this topic caught my eye the other day:

 

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist  

 

SWEDISH EX-PRIME MINISTER REBUKES BERNIE: SOCIALISM ONLY DESTROYS

 

Maybe the subtlety is their socialized medicine but not really saying they are socialist countries.

 

I would agree the military mentality is problematic.  Several countries want to maintain a global eye and presence.  Maybe the Nordic are surrounded by better neighbors. 

[MegaMind]

On 7/31/2019 at 12:20 PM, dawei said:

 

I can't debate the realm of countries as x, y, or z... but this topic caught my eye the other day:

 

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist  

 

SWEDISH EX-PRIME MINISTER REBUKES BERNIE: SOCIALISM ONLY DESTROYS

 

Maybe the subtlety is their socialized medicine but not really saying they are socialist countries.

 

I would agree the military mentality is problematic.  Several countries want to maintain a global eye and presence.  Maybe the Nordic are surrounded by better neighbors. 

 

 

Besides healthcare and education there are a lot of social safety nets in Nordic countries.

 

Homeless? Not possible in most Nordic countries.

 

Having a baby?  70 weeks of paid parental leave in Sweden.

 

Unemployed in Sweden? 300 days of unemployment, and then if you still can't find a job you can go to the labor market program and be guaranteed at least some type of work.  

 

Disabled, no need to hire a lawyer to appeal 20 times to get disability benefits. 

 

I had a friend in the USA they refused his disability even after his kidneys shut down and he had to go on Dialysis.  He got disability, and his lawyer took 20% of back payments due, and then he died 4 months later (bankrupt by the way from hospital bills).

 

Retirement pension in Norway for those over 67, the basic rate was $2,326 USD in 2013.

 

I have a friend in Norway, he delivers the mail, 4 days per week, and makes $50,000 USD a year,  he said he saves after all bills and expenses are paid $1500 USD a month.

 

These are just some examples.

 

In my opinion we are being hecked over with a big red white and blue baseball bat.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

Besides healthcare and education there are a lot of social safety nets in Nordic countries.

 

Homeless? Not possible in most Nordic countries.

 

Having a baby?  70 weeks of paid parental leave in Sweden.

 

Unemployed in Sweden? 300 days of unemployment, and then if you still can't find a job you can go to the labor market program and be guaranteed at least some type of work.  

 

Disabled, no need to hire a lawyer to appeal 20 times to get disability benefits. 

 

I had a friend in the USA they refused his disability even after his kidneys shut down and he had to go on Dialysis.  He got disability, and his lawyer took 20% of back payments due, and then he died 4 months later (bankrupt by the way from hospital bills).

 

Retirement pension in Norway for those over 67, the basic rate was $2,326 USD in 2013.

 

I have a friend in Norway, he delivers the mail, 4 days per week, and makes $50,000 USD a year,  he said he saves after all bills and expenses are paid $1500 USD a month.

 

These are just some examples.

 

In my opinion we are getting bent over with a big red white and blue strap on.

 

 

 

that's fine to explain the goodness of nordic areas but there is no explanation why and how it worked.  And then explain how that can be applied to the US, if possible.

 

I am not sure why you end it with a reference to anal sex?   Isn't this homophobic or not, or just a prison cliche?   I thought such talk was now against the rules.   I hope this is not what the website is now attracting.  

[sean]

Somehow it's easy to forget that it's socialists that fight for socialized healthcare. Also socialists that fought for dozens of basic rights we easily take for granted in the U.S., e.g. elimination of sweat shops, child-labor laws, 8-hour workdays, etc, etc. These advances were not magically bestowed on the working class by benevolent capitalists one sunny day they felt chipper. They were fought for relentlessly at all levels, including the streets, and at great personal sacrifice.

 

It's capitalists (which in the U.S. are now represented ubiquitously by both Republicans and Democrats) that oppose tooth and nail nearly every non-profitable, socialized service and safety net that, sure, might incommensurably reduce human suffering and senseless death but also * cough * might mildly put a dent in some bottom lines, good sir.

 

BTW — this is not some naive, anti-business owner screed. We live in a capitalist society and have to do our best to survive. If you own a business I'm not pissing on that. I'm just asking us not to close off our imaginations to what might be possible. I own my home and land but I'm not attached to some weird, cosmic, fetishism of individual private property ownership for all eternity.

 

Sean

 

[manitou]

The thing that's unfortunate is that it's only because of LABELS that we are afraid to embrace what would otherwise be common sense solutions.  I think we need a third option in here; something where our capitalism can be directed to the kinder and gentler, where greed isn't the only thing that's rewarded.  There are surely some concepts that fall under the Socialist category that we need to adopt, to adjust to the present times and conditions.  Would it ever be possible to find representatives with backbones enough to draw outside of the lines a little?  

 

I was in an American founding fathers groove for a while.  I remember reading where one of the founding fathers (and I think it was Thomas Jefferson) believed that the Constitution should be reviewed every 20 years for adaptations to the times.  It's like now we're chained to this huge cement block of a Constitution  that was poured and frozen in time nearly 250 years ago.

 

But the fear of the label of Socialism keeps us immobilized

[manitou]

mildmouse23 - thanks for posting that wonderful piece on the Norweigan prisons.  It would be wonderful if the U.S. could do that.  Cost effective in the long run, and hopefully an improved human being as a result.  That could be a very inspirational project for this country to do - and I think the grass roots nature of it could breathe new life into our society.  Maybe even tie it in somehow with the necessity for the green industry to be established, researched, and implemented.

 

The Way Things Have Become would appear to also have hidden opportunities in it.

[MooNiNite]

11 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I can't debate the realm of countries as x, y, or z... but this topic caught my eye the other day:

 

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist  

 

SWEDISH EX-PRIME MINISTER REBUKES BERNIE: SOCIALISM ONLY DESTROYS

 

Maybe the subtlety is their socialized medicine but not really saying they are socialist countries.

 

I would agree the military mentality is problematic.  Several countries want to maintain a global eye and presence.  Maybe the Nordic are surrounded by better neighbors. 

 

Its basic economics why socialism doesnt work. Everyone is different. And companies need competition to prevent them from taking advantage of people. 

[sean]

26 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

Its basic economics why socialism doesnt work.

 

LOL. Uh oh. The PHP coder cum economics brain genius has logged on.

[Earl Grey]

 

8 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

And companies need competition to prevent them from taking advantage of people. 

 

Under the current market's hyper capitalism, let's look at Silicon Valley. Unregulated and unscrutinized until recently, a huge monopoly that had a business model with Amazon, Facebook, and others buying other companies to eliminate competition and free choice. Does this really sound like an acceptable situation without some modicum of regulation?

 

If even a little regulation is socialist, then unfortunately, I'm all for it because it harms people, especially those who have become slaves to the gig economy, where firms such as PostMates garnish tips and pay far less than they are supposedly promised. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/nyregion/doordash-ubereats-food-app-delivery-bike.html

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/reader-center/insider-reporter-food-deliveryman.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Edited August 1, 2019 by Earl Grey

[MooNiNite]

25 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

Under the current market's hyper capitalism, let's look at Silicon Valley. Unregulated and unscrutinized until recently, a huge monopoly that had a business model with Amazon, Facebook, and others buying other companies to eliminate competition and free choice. Does this really sound like an acceptable situation without some modicum of regulation?

 

If even a little regulation is socialist, then unfortunately, I'm all for it because it harms people, especially those who have become slaves to the gig economy, where firms such as PostMates garnish tips and pay far less than they are supposedly promised. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/nyregion/doordash-ubereats-food-app-delivery-bike.html

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/reader-center/insider-reporter-food-deliveryman.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

 

Amazon, Facebook, some of the most technologically advanced companies in the world. Google. Some people actually appreciate these companies and what they do. Want to do something new? Now is better than ever to be an internet entrepreneur. Many of these mega companies lean left and support socialism, because they are the ones who will win the government contracts, so you're not actually going against them. Obama in 2012 passed the Citizens United bill, do you know what that does?

 

What about government run programs? I hope you see the inefficiency and waste. Does that factor into your assessment? We have Nasa vs Space X and Blue Origin. How about the F-35 program (over 1 trillion for a plane comparable to the euro fighter)?

 

You think the gig economy is evil? Being able to work whenever you want? Some people see that as an innovation. Lastly, no one is forced to work gig jobs, many people actually PREFER it. It also has huge tax benefits as everything is a write off. 

 

You know Texas had their own public ride sharing company .. do you know how that worked out?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by MooNiNite

[sean]

3 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

Lets compare them to government run programs. 

 

Ahh, you mean government programs run by the kind of politicians you think are the "best choice" who massively slash funding to government programs to further enrich the corporations you laud?

 

Sean

 

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

 

Amazon, Facebook, some of the most technologically advanced companies in the world. Google. 

 

Lets compare them to government run programs. 

 

We have Nasa vs Space X. How about the F-35 program?

 

Your statement is a misdirection.

 

There is no question that they are technologically advanced. But that’s not answering the point about the economic unfairness and lack of regulation.

 

Try again.

[MooNiNite]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Your statement is a misdirection.

 

There is no question that they are technologically advanced. But that’s not answering the point about the economic unfairness and lack of regulation.

 

Try again.

 

Well, I guess im just sorry you believe supporting the left will help you regulate the megalith companies. Funny how the companies you mentioned are pro-left. lol. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by MooNiNite

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

 

Well, I guess im just sorry you believe supporting the left will help you regulate the megalith companies. Funny how the companies you mentioned are pro-left. lol. 

 

Pro-Left with abominable treatment of laborers for Amazon and gig economy contractors with Uber and others?

 

With that kind of view you have of what is Left in name only with those companies, you probably are so Right-Wing that you believe Genghis Khan was a Liberal.

 

You still haven’t answered the part about economics. Strike two.

 

Will Mighty Casey hit a home run or embody the maxim of how pride cometh before the fall?

[ralis]

18 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

 

Amazon, Facebook, some of the most technologically advanced companies in the world. Google. Some people actually appreciate these companies and what they do. Want to do something new? Now is better than ever to be an internet entrepreneur. Many of these mega companies lean left and support socialism, because they are the ones who will win the government contracts, so you're not actually going against them. Obama in 2012 passed the Citizens United bill, do you know what that does?

 

What about government run programs? I hope you see the inefficiency and waste. Does that factor into your assessment? We have Nasa vs Space X and Blue Origin. How about the F-35 program (over 1 trillion for a plane comparable to the euro fighter)?

 

You think the gig economy is evil? Being able to work whenever you want? Some people see that as an innovation. Lastly, no one is forced to work gig jobs, many people actually PREFER it. It also has huge tax benefits as everything is a write off. 

 

You know Texas had their own public ride sharing company .. do you know how that worked out?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

‘Citizens United was a SCOTUS ruling not a bill signed by President Obama. 

 

As a freshman in college I took Sociology 110, in that class we discussed the so called “technological fix” in which all technology produces problems for the society in which it is implemented. As much as you revere such advances, the problems that FB and Amazon are responsible for are miles long. I won’t provide a list, but anyone with an ounce of critical thinking will be able to elicit a few of the myriad problems.