Are there any other leftists here? 👀

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

That's the thing about an "intervention."   Once it's unleashed on a population, there's no leaving it alone -- typically there's nothing left to be left alone that is viable.  The term "romantic" originates from the word "Rome" and it's actually pretty ironic that we have come to use it to mean something like "free of Rome."  How can anything "romantic" be free of "Rome?.."  

 

  "Leaving a population alone" post factum, after a comprehensive assault on all its survival/thriving paradigms, is like running someone over by a car and then "leaving them alone" bleeding by the curb "so as not to keep interfering."  Yet the only alternative currently being offered to the victims of this assault is to either bleed to death -- or to hop in that car, get patched up with band-aids and continue on the joy ride to run over someone else.  If you can't beat them, join them.  If you can't join them, be left on the side of the highway to die.  The cars will keep whooshing by with or without you.

 

There's got to be a third way?  But for it to have a chance, people would have to start by actually noticing and acknowledging the sheer existence of the other two.  Of the inescapable "you can't beat them so join them" trap the only alternative to which is comprehensive existential misery -- so "joining" in whatever seems to be its opposite, not because it is but because that flip-over mirror world we all believe in (if this is so bad, its opposite must be amazing) is the only solution being proposed by even the best.  And it's not the best who call the shots in an intervention and post-intervention world we all know and love as civilized.   

 

 

Just reading the word 'intervention'    urks me   - but that isnt your fault  ;

" Ten years on, it’s time we learned the lessons from the failed Northern Territory Intervention

 

With no warning, and no consultation, the federal government moved swiftly to seize control of many aspects of the daily lives of residents in 73 targeted remote communities. It implemented coercive measures that would have been unthinkable in non-Indigenous communities."

 

https://theconversation.com/ten-years-on-its-time-we-learned-the-lessons-from-the-failed-northern-territory-intervention-79198

 

 

 

"  ... An analysis into the speeches and arguments made by the then Prime Minister and Minister for Indigenous Affairs found that the rhetoric used justified the government's extensive and contentious intervention into the remote Indigenous communities. The speech acts implied that the Ministers were the heroes of the situation. However, it has since been documented by several sources that some of the verifying sources that instigated the events of the intervention were fabricated by then-minister Mal Brough and coercive in nature...  " 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Territory_National_Emergency_Response

 

------

 

Some communities are getting better and recovering their culture, spirit and self worth and making great contributions to Australian culture, both in the area of arts and 'science'  ( that is working with government  using their knowledge to improve environment , species protection, bush fire management ,  National parks officers , etc  )     ... still a long way to go regarding agriculture, but the beginnings of this are observable

[gendao]

On 8/23/2019 at 9:27 PM, Earl Grey said:

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth showing pictures of the places we worked in and how they are a lot different than how Westerners define "rural", because Barstow, California is a lot different than living in the middle of Eastern Indonesia or Cambodia. 

 

The definition of "poverty" in development is better explained at this link: https://www.concernusa.org/story/top-9-causes-global-poverty/

Yes, I would love to see some pictures!  How is the ecology, environment, and native flora/fauna biodiversity in these undeveloped "Global South" regions?  Especially compared to developed global colonies?

 

Meanwhile, another Christian colonialist is burning down the Amazonian rainforest for more development.

Quote

Brazil’s Christian Fascist Bolsonaro Is Burning Down The Amazon For Jesus And Profits
Brazil’s President Jair Bolsonaro is overseeing the destruction of the Amazon rainforest and the genocide of indigenous peoples.
Environmental organizations and researchers say the wildfires blazing in the Brazilian rainforest were set by cattle ranchers and loggers who want to clear and utilize the land, emboldened by the country’s pro-business president.
The new Brazilian leader called himself “Captain Chainsaw” and mocked environmentalists who feared his pro-clearance policies could decimate the Amazon.

Brazil’s Christian Fascist President Jair Bolsonaro is overseeing a campaign of calculated genocide and environmental destruction.Indeed, Bolsonaro is a dangerous Christian fascist who has promised to remake Brazil into a Christian theocracy.
God above everything. There is no such thing as this secular state. The state is Christian and the minority will have to change, if they can. The minorities will have to adapt to the position of the majority.
a big part of Bolsonaro’s dream of a Christian theocracy entails the eradication of non-Christians, in particular, the indigenous peoples of Brazil currently making the Amazon rainforest their home.
Bolsonaro was inaugurated on New Year’s day 2019, and immediately began to set into motion his deplorable plans to remake Brazil into a Christian theocracy. In his acceptance speech, Bolsonaro promised to govern according to the Bible…And at the top of his list was the extermination of uncontacted tribes, and the persecution of indigenous groups.

The Guardian notes that Bolsonaro “has expressed open disdain for the indigenous peoples of Brazil, and it is no exaggeration to say that some of the world’s most unique and diverse tribes are facing annihilation.”
Bolsonaro himself has declared:

    It’s a shame that the Brazilian cavalry wasn’t as efficient as the Americans, who exterminated the Indians.

Yep, ~600 years of Christian colonialism is STILL ALIVE & WELL!!!!  R.I.P. EARTH!

Edited August 25, 2019 by gendao

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, gendao said:

Yes, I would love to see some pictures!  How is the ecology, environment, and native flora/fauna biodiversity in these undeveloped "Global South" regions?  Especially compared to developed global colonies?

 

Meanwhile, another Christian colonialist is burning down the Amazonian rainforest for more development.

Yep, ~600 years of Christian colonialism is STILL ALIVE & WELL!!!!  R.I.P. EARTH!

 

Are you even able to read and comprehend that you're making false comparisons of the capitalistic businesses such as mining firms versus development organizations being the same thing, which is what was just explained thoroughly how they are not the same thing? 

 

Anyway, this is for you and everyone to read: https://www.rappler.com/views/imho/237729-humanitarian-worker-frontlines

Edited August 25, 2019 by Earl Grey

[gendao]

17 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Are you even able to read and comprehend that you're making false comparisons of the capitalistic businesses such as mining firms versus development organizations being the same thing, which is what was just explained thoroughly how they are not the same thing?

Uh, that post was about Brazil's Christian colonialist President...not development organizations. 

And I also asked you some specific questions, of which you all ignored...in your overzealous defense of development organizations.
But, development organizations are not my focus - they're yours.

Edited August 25, 2019 by gendao

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, gendao said:

Uh, that post was about Brazil's Christian colonialist President...not development organizations. 

And I also asked you some specific questions, of which you all ignored...in your overzealous defense of development organizations.
But, development organizations are not my focus - they're yours.

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying. 

 

As for photos and ecology, let me get clearance from my old employers before I post as these belong to them. 

 

And yes: Bolsonaro to me is more dangerous than Putin or Xi or Trump because of what he can do to the Amazon rain forest...Sorry to any of his supporters, but he's a populist piece of shit and a homophobe. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

On a different note, here's something very interesting to discuss: 

 

http://evonomics.com/no-productivity-does-not-explain-income/

 

Excerpt: 

 

Quote

Did you hear the joke about the economists who tested their theory by defining it to be true? Oh, I forgot. It’s not a joke. It’s standard practice among mainstream economists. They propose that productivity explains income. And then they ‘test’ this idea by defining productivity in terms of income.

In this post, I’m going to show you this circular logic. Then I’ll show you what productivity differences look like when productivity is measure objectively. They’re far too small to explain income differences.

Marginal productivity theory

The marginal productivity theory of income distribution was born a little over a century ago. Its principle creator, John Bates Clark, was explicit that his theory was about ideology and not science. Clark wanted show that in capitalist societies, everyone got what they produced, and hence all was fair:

It is the purpose of this work to show that the distribution of the income of society is controlled by a natural law, and that this law, if it worked without friction, would give to every agent of production the amount of wealth which that agent creates. (John Bates Clark in The Distribution of Wealth)

Clark was also explicit about why his theory was needed. The stability of the capitalist order was at stake! Here’s Clark again:

The welfare of the laboring classes depends on whether they get much or little; but their attitude toward other classes—and, therefore, the stability of the social state—depends chiefly on the question, whether the amount that they get, be it large or small, is what they produce. If they create a small amount of wealth and get the whole of it, they may not seek to revolutionize society; but if it were to appear that they produce an ample amount and get only a part of it, many of them would become revolutionists, and all would have the right to do so. (John Bates Clark in The Distribution of Wealth)

So the neoclassical theory of income distribution was born as an ideological response to Marxism. According to Marx, capitalists extract a surplus from workers, and so workers get less than what they deserve. Clark’s marginal productivity theory aimed to show that this was not true. Both capitalists and workers, Clark claimed, got what they deserved.

The message of Clark’s theory is simple: workers need to stay in their place. They already earn what they produce, so they have no right to demand more.

 

[sean]

[manitou]

Wow.  This play is gettin' good.....

 

I can't believe I just got back from a tour of Washington DC and our group was touring the Congress building at the same time that Ms. P stood up to Mr. T.  How strange is that??

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

Wow.  This play is gettin' good.....

 

I can't believe I just got back from a tour of Washington DC and our group was touring the Congress building at the same time that Ms. P stood up to Mr. T.  How strange is that??

Hey there, welcome back. 

 

The whole scenario has developed in a manner so abstract to my sense of normal, the feeling when reading the news, is as if I've been in a coma for decades and have awakened in a Terry Gilliam film world, a tweaked out mix of Brasil, Dr Parnassus and Zero Theorum.

[manitou]

I don't see why I couldn't have shown up there subconsciously to represent the collective energy of the Bums.  For the purpose of being in the exact place and time where all in the House, Senate, and President were in the building as well, although one room over.  Maybe to somehow tweak a dynamic or elevate a vibration..  When you consider what and who We really are - then, it makes sense.    

 

To consider it in duality, not so much.

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by manitou

[Boerewors]

On 7/25/2019 at 2:39 PM, Earl Grey said:

It's been a real turn-off and I've seen a lot of bullying here too as a result of it to the point people who disagree with my politics will bother me in other threads, including my PPJ, which should be personal space really.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 7:58 AM, sean said:

NOTE: This is not going to be a debate topic. I stopped debating right-wing dipshits many years ago for literally the same reason I don't argue with small children. Don't post right-wing bullshit in this topic. I'm in a mood and you've been warned.

 

I'm curious if there are any actual leftists on this forum?

 

To be clear, I don't mean neoliberal or "progressive" Democrats. I mean bonafide anti-fascists, left-anarchists, left-libertarians, Marxists, socialists or communists.

 

I haven't been active on here in years. (Short story: I fell in love, crisscrossed the country twice, leveled-up my engineering career, got married, bought a house in a new town, adopted an enormous dog.)

 

It's been incredibly disheartening to see that many of the loudest, most active voices here are right-wing reactionaries and conspiracy theory bros. Frankly, it makes the entire forum feel juvenile and toxic to me.

 

I can barely imagine wanting to share anything in this environment, let alone intimate, personal details of my spiritual practice.

 

Is this just what happens to online communities post-Trump now? The vulnerable aliveness slinks away slowly from the boorish spectacle, slipping quietly out the back door?

 

Trying times y'all. I remember often hearing this trope when I was young that I would eventually "grow out of" being a lefty. At 43 now it appears the prophecies were mistaken. I've only grown from Chomsky to Kropotkin to Marx. (With a cringe laissez-faire libertarian phase in there somewhere.)

 

Hi, my name is Sean. I'm a leftist. 👋

 

I read a ton but also (hopefully) avoid retreating into purely theoretical astronautics. "If it's not accessible to the poor, then it's neither revolutionary nor is it radical." My perspective continually evolves, but "anarcho-communist" is a shoe that fits well enough.

 

I'm active in community politics and not ideologically opposed to involvement in electoral politics. I vote for the least garbage candidates both nationally and locally. I don't shame people who conscientiously abstain from voting. I think pressuring the generally shitty, center-right led Democratic party leftward is worthwhile even if only as an exercise in shifting the Overton window and organizing solidarity. On a national scale, I believe universal healthcare is a medium-term fight worth focusing on given its populist support and massive capacity to reduce human suffering and death.

 

So, that's a bit about my politics. Any other leftist comrades hiding out here? I'd love to hear from you. Also, feel free to PM me if you're not yet ready to come out as a commie infidel. 😆

 

Sean

 

 

The only problem I have with "leftists", is that your ideals tend to extend as far as your nose. You believe in ideals you never put into practice. You might be the owner of this forum, but that doesn't mean living in a first world country and being a hippy doesn't make you a hypocrite. 

 

Why don't you come live in some "leftist" country in Africa for a while, if you can live here for 30 years I can respect your opinion, until then your ideals stems from ignorance, and you're too much of a coward to actually live in a communist or socialist country. Your interaction with other cultures as a tourist and as an expat is much different. 

 

Cuba and Venezuela are also waiting for you "Comrade", so is Zimbabwe and South Africa. 

[Boerewors]

Yes liminal_luke, everybody isn't a bootlicker, and some people actually live in communist or socialist countries. I just think it's ironic that you're all from capitalist countries in general. Put your money where your mouth is.

[ralis]

54 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

Yes liminal_luke, everybody isn't a bootlicker, and some people actually live in communist or socialist countries. I just think it's ironic that you're all from capitalist countries in general. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

I don't know what country you are from, but capitalism is running amok here in the U.S., and by extension affecting the entire planet!

[manitou]

10 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I don't know what country you are from, but capitalism is running amok here in the U.S., and by extension affecting the entire planet!

 

Kleptocracy, methinks.

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Kleptocracy, methinks.

 

Yes! Corruption to the max! 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Boerewors said:

Yes liminal_luke, everybody isn't a bootlicker, and some people actually live in communist or socialist countries. I just think it's ironic that you're all from capitalist countries in general. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

You are rude, dude.  And a post earlier you also rudely lashed out at the forum owner/admin, which is usually a bad idea regardless of all other considerations.  Hope you're not suicidal in RL.  If that's the case, I have much compassion and can share some helpline numbers.    

 

But if you're saying, unnecessarily rudely, that no one here has the real perspective, please allow me to introduce myself.  I lived the first half of my to-date life in a socialist and the second half in a capitalist country.  Do you have any questions you would like me to answer, or do you have all the answers already? 

[Boerewors]

2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

You are rude, dude.  And a post earlier you also rudely lashed out at the forum owner/admin, which is usually a bad idea regardless of all other considerations.  Hope you're not suicidal in RL.  If that's the case, I have much compassion and can share some helpline numbers.    

 

But if you're saying, unnecessarily rudely, that no one here has the real perspective, please allow me to introduce myself.  I lived the first half of my to-date life in a socialist and the second half in a capitalist country.  Do you have any questions you would like me to answer, or do you have all the answers already? 

My question to you is, why are you living in a capitalist country, if socialism and communism is superior? I'd say your actions contradict your ideals. You may perceive it as rude, but at the same time, to live in a capitalist society screaming about how unjust it is, and sitting in a first-world Western country, is a paradox. And as such, I cannot take any "leftist" or commie seriously when their actions contradict their claims, it's a form of hypocrisy, or cowardice.

 

If capitalism was worse than communism, you wouldn't be living in a capitalist society, people from socialist or communist societies would not be trying to get into Western capitalist societies. You can claim differently all you want, but your actions are what I trust, not your words, typed from a capitalist country.

 

1 hour ago, ralis said:

I don't know what country you are from, but capitalism is running amok here in the U.S., and by extension affecting the entire planet!

I'm from South Africa. I'd like you to come live here, or some other non-capitalist society, and then compare. You see, it's easy to think it works when you don't understand how unions can ruin a country. All of our SOEs, State-owned Enterprises, have been neglected, and run into the ground. Let's take Eskom as an example, our power utility, which employs over 20000 more people than it should, and the CEOs all get massive sign-on and leaving bonuses. There's a thing called load shedding in my country, rolling blackouts, and it can never be fixed for a number of reasons;

 

1) Unions have too much power, and the ANC won't fire the 20000+ that are nothing but leeches, because they'll lose those 20000+ votes.

 

2) The people in townships, which are like favelas, don't pay for water or electricity, and owe the municipalities billions, billions every year. Will they be forced to pay? They can't because nobody wants to invest here to create jobs due to the power of unions, corruption, and racist policies. Will they be cut off? No. Instead, we have rolling blackouts, depending on the stage (from 2 hours a day to 12), for both those who pay and those who don't and it'll get even worse. So can you imagine paying a massive amount for your utilities, and then being cut off from it because others don't? It's shit.

 

Zimbabwe, is a great example of what's going to become of South Africa soon. 

 

[Taomeow]

1 minute ago, Boerewors said:

My question to you is, why are you living in a capitalist country, if socialism and communism is superior?

 

That's not a question, that's a falsification.  I never made a peep about anything being superior to anything else, so why would you falsify an assertion I didn't make instead of asking a question as I proposed?  

 

Wanna try again?    

[Nungali]

On 17/10/2019 at 12:45 PM, sean said:

 

 

Down here in Aussie land . we are pressed for time , so we condense replies like that to just two words .    

 

Well, 9 actually ;    Dear Sir  Oswald.  ( or  whatever, like   .... Dear New Poster ....      )  

 

Spoiler

since apparently he didnt get it

 

< the two words> 

 

yours sincerely    

 

.........   ...........

Edited December 14, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

 

Spoiler

There are not many people in the world that will BBQ a turd .

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Nungali

[Boerewors]

35 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

There are not many people in the world that will BBQ a turd .

 

There are not many people in the world that come from cultures that committed genocide against the natives, and were complicit in concentration camps in South Africa. Reflect upon your own culture before judging others.

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

There are not many people in the world that come from cultures that committed genocide against the natives, and were complicit in concentration camps in South Africa. Reflect upon your own culture before judging others.

 

Uhmm.. ask Nungali where he's from. 

[Boerewors]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

Uhmm.. ask Nungali where he's from. 

 

51 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Down here in Aussie land

 

[SirPalomides]

To summarize Borewars argument:

 

 

[SirPalomides]

1 hour ago, Boerewors said:

 

 

There are a hell of a lot of people in Australia not descended from genocidaires. Also, since you’re complaining about leftists, you should move out of SA to some racist apartheid state like Israel since it was leftists who abolished apartheid in SA.