Are there any other leftists here? 👀

[ralis]

29 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Respectfully, I'd submit that imagining one doesn't have a political preference is always a blind spot or disingenuous.

 

 

For what it's worth, it's hardly offensive when misogynist racist grandpas call socialism a mental illness.

 

What logical syllogism can liberate a closed heart with terrible aesthetics?

 

This is also the danger with far-right conspiracy theories, e.g., QAnon and Pizzagate lunacy. That's precisely what helps transform them into a compelling mode of religious belief.

It's not that there aren't bits and pieces of horrifying and often unacknowledge truth in conspiracies.

Please consider that literally no amount of tit for tat "facts and logic" in response to your ceaseless, colossal posts will ever put a dent in your religious faith. You're a true believer.

 

Sean

 

 

You summed up how the "big lie" is constructed. A small kernel of truth with mountains of deception built on top and given the size and scope, it must be absolutely irrefutable. Millions died in the last century by following the words of demagogues.

[joeblast]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

The man-made cyclone around us renders us immobile in the sense that we can't stop long enough to focus on any one thing, and this seems to be the intent. 

 

where Money is the god.

 

Other than that, things are going swimmingly.

Its ironic how a lot of people understand a lot of pieces of the puzzle, but ostensibly have HARD blinders on with regard to certain information.  The first two bits I singled out are very relevant to the root that many dont see entering the ground. 

 

And I'm glad things are going swimmingly I lament that my pointing out facts has likely negatively affected also your opinion of me since they relate to you too...but you can watch the outcomes and say "damn, I had no idea" later just like the rest of them

 

38 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Please consider that literally no amount of tit for tat "facts and logic" in response to your ceaseless, colossal posts will ever put a dent in your religious faith. You're a true believer.

 

Sean

 

I get it - the "news" "has already instructed otherwise," and circled the wagons to such an extent that the near verbatim chorus across all kinds of supposed independent and objective entities has convinced anyone who "generally accepts" the "news" that "this information should not be examined whatsoever." 

 

I know its insulting for you to consider it "programming" but that is indeed what it is, and your logical fallacies and non-examinations dont do the heart you wear on your sleeve any justice.

 

Just dont any of you lefties ever come say anything about compassion ever again, because what is on display by the left here is a shallow front for "accepted targets of compassion" and doesnt display actual compassion, its just virtue signaling as part of the lie of collectivism, showing its underlying energy current as mind speech and hearing control.  There is no defense (or even desire to defend or justify, as if the ideologies themselves are independently objectively obvious self justified as a given) of the ideologies concepts or the myriad negative outflows thereof, there is only the desire to compare it favorably to a theoretical antithesis. 

 

I will now leave you to your echo chambers where you can delude yourselves in peace.

Edited July 28, 2019 by joeblast

[dawei]

25 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Respectfully, I'd submit that imagining one doesn't have a political preference is always a blind spot or disingenuous.

 

I wouldn't doubt I have political blindspot 

 

I've only voted one time in my life and it was for Ross Perot to protest the two party system.  I would never participate in a real protest.  I've never paid attention to politics till halfway through Obama.  

 

I've just never been interested long enough to form strong positions that fall neatly into a name.  Maybe there's one out there but I have no interest to attempt a search just so I can give it a name.  

 

I now kind of like the idea that I have no idea what is right or left. 

[sean]

37 minutes ago, joeblast said:

>> Please consider that literally no amount of tit for tat "facts and logic" in response to your ceaseless, colossal posts will ever put a dent in your religious faith. You're a true believer.

 

I will now leave you to your echo chambers where you can delude yourselves in peace.

 

Somehow I doubt you'll have the restraint to avoid another wall of text in this topic, but I'll leave you with something as well. Isn't it strange that you went from patronizing us with links to logical fallacies and urging a "rational" discussion, to "peacing out" entirely when I asked you to even just consider that no amount of logical facts or evidence will change your mind.

 

Sean

 

[joeblast]

6 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Somehow I doubt you'll have the restraint to to avoid another wall of text in this topic, but I'll leave you with something as well. Isn't it strange that you went from patronizing us with links to logical fallacies and urging a "rational" discussion, to "peacing out" entirely when I asked you to even just consider that no amount of logical facts or evidence will change your mind.

 

Sean

 

deflect away and tu quoque, my friend - its about all you've got here.  but there's no need for me to beat this horse dead, its already beaten, you just cant smell it yet.

Edited July 28, 2019 by joeblast
oh sorry, not the horse, I meant your position, and you just cant smell it decaying yet

[lifeforce]

1 hour ago, sean said:

I'd submit that imagining one doesn't have a political preference is always a blind spot or disingenuous.

 

If you don't mind I'd like to chime in here.

There's no imagining on my part. I've been a true anarchist since as long as I can remember, waaaay back into early childhood, before I'd heard of the word, or even understood what it meant. I've never voted. The whole system is a complete farce and undoubtedly rigged anyway to keep us all in conflict with each other. 

[manitou]

53 minutes ago, joeblast said:

 

And I'm glad things are going swimmingly I lament that my pointing out facts has likely negatively affected also your opinion of me since they relate to you too...but you can watch the outcomes and say "damn, I had no idea" later just like the rest of them

 

"Damn, I had no idea" would certainly apply in both directions, friend.  Please know that your political proclivities have no effect on my opinion of you.  Actually, I don't have an opinion of you.  But I've always enjoyed being with you on a thread.

 

I think what underlies this discussion is the disparity of what the Sage would do, as opposed to what the Sage would not do.  The Daodejing brought us all together, regardless of our specific paths.  I think it comes as a surprise to some of us that it's possible to have deep knowledge of the spiritual dynamics of the DDJ, and yet not apply this to our outside life.  We all have the love in our hearts to search for the true meaning of life - it's that same question that has been bringing us back here for years.  But to embrace the incredible corruption of this administration and think that anything productive could come out of it just doesn't seem possible to me.

 

You know, we truly do see what we want to see.

[doc benway]

5 minutes ago, manitou said:

I think what underlies this discussion is the disparity of what the Sage would do, as opposed to what the Sage would not do.  The Daodejing brought us all together, regardless of our specific paths.  I think it comes as a surprise to some of us that it's possible to have deep knowledge of the spiritual dynamics of the DDJ, and yet not apply this to our outside life. 

 

I think this highlights the discrepancy between "knowledge" and "practice."

I can know everything there is to know about chocolate, even have a pantry-full, and still not know how it tastes.

Lot's of experts our there, very few effective practitioners.

We need only look at any Buddhist website, or the state of "Christianity" in the US.

... or here, apparently.

[sean]

1 hour ago, lifeforce said:

>> Respectfully, I'd submit that imagining one doesn't have a political preference is always a blind spot or disingenuous.

 

There's no imagining on my part. I've been a true anarchist since as long as I can remember, waaaay back into early childhood, before I'd heard of the word, or even understood what it meant. I've never voted. The whole system is a complete farce and undoubtedly rigged anyway to keep us all in conflict with each other. 

 

✊ Anarchism is a deeply leftist political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Sean

 

[lifeforce]

8 minutes ago, sean said:

 

✊ Anarchism is a deeply leftist political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Sean

 

 

True anarchism is against ALL political authority. It's very basis is anti-authoritarian, whether that's left, right or centre.

I'd take anything written on wikipedia with a massive grain of salt.

 

[lifeforce]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchism

 

anarchism

 noun

an·ar·chism | \ ˈa-nər-ˌki-zəm  , -ˌnär-\

Definition of anarchism

1: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

2: the advocacy or practice of anarchistic principles

[manitou]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

  Actually, I don't have an opinion of you.  But I've always enjoyed being with you on a thread.

 

 

 

 

I need to retract this, joeblast.  I do have an opinion of you, and it's one of you being a very kind person.  I'm sorry, my memory is not good, so I didn't remember it until this moment.  I really appreciate the kindness you showed to me when my husband died a year and a half ago.  I remember that you PM'd me a few times to check in and see how I was doing.

 

What I don't understand, though, how someone with a golden soul  could support anyone who belittles everyone, humiliates his co-workers, tears down any institution that gets in his way, acts like a dictator, has lied over 10,000 documented and researched times, pulled us out of the global climate change agreement, wanted to initially pull out of NATO, smashed the Iran agreement, is imprisoning people in cages with no sanitary provisions, cares for nothing else other than what money he can get out of it, and is obstructing justice, still to this day, right in front of our eyes.  and I can't even think of one of the apple cart upsets that he does with regularity that benefited the U.S.  They've all been exactly as you would imagine Putin would want to happen - for the purpose of totally smashing the U.S. culture.  Fracturing us, dividing us exactly as we are 

 

But the other side of the philosophical coin (now that I got that tirade out of my system - thanks, JB, for the opportunity.  I feel better now).  On the other side of the philosophical coin is the unfathomable truth that all is One.  That means that I am Trump and you are me.  We are all the one Life; it's as though we're all an individual tentacle of a huge giant squid, each thinking we're different and not noticing that we attached up at the top.  This is my highest thinking on this whole subject, and it works every time to remember this when I get too wratcheted up politically.

 

Group hug, please.  ((  ))

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Anarchism shows up in the oddest places:

 

On 7/24/2015 at 11:46 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

What, Plato an Anarchist!?

Quote

Plato believed that the ideal political situation would be a State with citizens neatly divided into Worker, Soldier, and Guardian classes living and working in harmony under the leadership of a philosopher-king, right? Actually there are good grounds to question whether this is what Plato really means in the Republic.
Rather, Plato’s remarks in Republic 2.369b et seq. might be taken as his true view of the ideal political arrangement. There, before he mentions any other kind of government, he proposes a system that we might today call a natural law stateless society (or anarchy — but in the sense of having no government institutions, not social chaos). That is, Plato first proposes that if people were content with simple pleasures, they could live happily, in harmony with each other and with nature, and social affairs could be conducted without institutional government. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

 

Following the link in the quote leads to an interesting discussion, That really puts Plato's Republic in context, not that my own exposition of Plato isn't interesting.

 

ZYD

[sean]

31 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

True anarchism is against ALL political authority. It's very basis is anti-authoritarian, whether that's left, right or centre.

I'd take anything written on wikipedia with a massive grain of salt.

 

I only link to the Wikipedia on Anarchism as it's a free, relative decent starting point for further research and validation. The nice thing about Wikipedia is that it includes references and further reading. If you'd like I can also personally suggest a dozen rigorous texts on the history of Anarchism as a positively leftist philosophy.

 

You're also mistakenly equating leftism and authoritarianism when the two in are no way conjoined.

 

I wonder if there's also a negative reaction to a kind of literalist notion of the word "left" itself. As if "left" implies one's political philosophy has a fixed, "narrow" and halfsighted location in space. I'd contest that the directional connotation of the term "left" doesn't map over to anything meaningful about leftism as a political philosophy. For example, I think political centrism is incredibly myopic and perpetuates injustice despite the appeal of the world "center" as used in other contexts, e.g. "let's all take a deep breath and center ourselves."

 

Sean

 

[lifeforce]

16 minutes ago, sean said:

You're also mistakenly equating leftism and authoritarianism when the two in are no way conjoined.

 

Well, marxism and communism are leftist and we've all seen how ruthlessly authoritarian and murderous those ideologies can be.

China is now an Orwellian dystopian nightmare with it's social credit system and ultra-surveillance. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't wish to get into tit-for-tat arguments.

Over and out.

Edited July 28, 2019 by lifeforce

[sean]

26 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

Well, marxism and communism are leftist and we've all seen how ruthlessly authoritarian and murderous those ideologies can be.

China is now an Orwellian dystopian nightmare with it's social credit system and ultra-surveillance. 

 

Well, capitalism and fascism are right-wing and we've all seen how ruthlessly authoritarian and murderous those ideologies can be. Knee-jerk tropes about inherent flaws in Marxism and communism nearly always avoid admitting the horrific failures of capitalism. Its fundamental dependence on mass consumer culture and cheap labor (or slave labor whenever possible), ceaseless, unbridled destruction of the planet for the profit of a few, widespread inequality and poverty proximate grotesque wealth, half a million homeless in the U.S. adjacent millions of empty homes, an institutionally racist police force originating from slave patrols, trillion dollar wars but not a dime for citizens with cancer going bankrupt from for-profit healthcare, etc, etc. China is one of the most capitalist nations in the world by the way.

 

Sean

 

[lifeforce]

23 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Well, capitalism and fascism are right-wing and we've all seen how ruthlessly authoritarian and murderous those ideologies can be. Knee-jerk tropes about inherent flaws in Marxism and communism nearly always avoid admitting the horrific failures of capitalism. Its fundamental dependence on mass consumer culture and cheap labor (or slave labor whenever possible), ceaseless, unbridled destruction of the planet for the profit of a few, widespread inequality and poverty proximate grotesque wealth, half a million homeless in the U.S. adjacent millions of empty homes, an institutionally racist police force originating from slave patrols, trillion dollar wars but not a dime for citizens with cancer going bankrupt from for-profit healthcare, etc, etc. China is one of the most capitalist nations in the world by the way.

 

Sean

 

 

I totally agree.

That's why I'm against ALL forms of political ideology. Governments have failed the very citizens who, allegedly, voted them in, be it left, right or centre.

Signing off for now. Best wishes.

[manitou]

1 hour ago, sean said:

 

Well, capitalism and fascism are right-wing and we've all seen how ruthlessly authoritarian and murderous those ideologies can be. Knee-jerk tropes about inherent flaws in Marxism and communism nearly always avoid admitting the horrific failures of capitalism. Its fundamental dependence on mass consumer culture and cheap labor (or slave labor whenever possible), ceaseless, unbridled destruction of the planet for the profit of a few, widespread inequality and poverty proximate grotesque wealth, half a million homeless in the U.S. adjacent millions of empty homes, an institutionally racist police force originating from slave patrols, trillion dollar wars but not a dime for citizens with cancer going bankrupt from for-profit healthcare, etc, etc. China is one of the most capitalist nations in the world by the way.

 

Sean

 

 

 

I think capitalism has surely created a great nation.  Back when the Henry Fords and the Duponts and Westinghouse and all the giants were producing incredible things and building this nation - capitalism was at the heart of the motivation to build, bigger and bigger.  It seemed to have worked beautifully.

 

But now the manufacturing has gone, the steel mills are gone, the potteries are gone, auto plants are gone - and the only surefire career now for the general unspecialized populace is in something  like the service field or being a mechanic or a plumber - jobs like that, just off the top of my head.  This country's needs are entirely different now.  The uneducated are getting further and further behind.  The level of specialization within the scientific and academic fields gets higher and higher.  The disparity between rich and poor is already ridiculous, and it's getting worse all the time.

 

I think the time has come to consider seriously a more leftist approach, maybe trying to embrace the best of socialism and capitalism.  Certainly at some point this is going to have to take place, to get us past this awful divide we find ourselves in.  But the old idea of thinking that people should bring themselves up by their bootstraps and get no help from government is just a way of wanting to keep it all for ourselves.  Tax cuts have once again been given to the reincarnations of Dupont, Westinghouse, and Ford.  The rest can just go and eat cake.

 

I think this nation needs to really look at itself.  As a metaphysician, I realize that everything is Here and Now and linear time is an illusion.  So I don't think the argument of how none of us were around when people were taken into captivity for the purpose of nation building is going to really cut it.  It is all happening Now, and even if that concept isn't familiar to one's mind, certainly we can all agree that we reap the benefits of the nation they built for us by just living here.  This was built at the expense of Native Americans, Africans, Caribbeans, Chinese, Japanese - and probably more I'm not thinking of.  Our founding fathers and ancestors are the ones who committed the original sin, and I don't think this nation has ever seen the other half of this karma.  Maybe it's happening now, I don't know.  Maybe our current leadership is our karma.  Actually, as I think about it, it probably is.

I don't think there is any doubt that there are places within the poor populaces of all races that the mentality of being taken care of by others still lives on.  Perhaps it started with the owner and master dynamic within indentured servitude or slavery wherein all the laborer's housing and food needs were provided for.  This may be a dynamic that is passed from generation to generation - I don't know.  But it seems likely to me that if this type of conditioning was passed down, it could go for an awfully long time.  Have you ever tried to really re-condition yourself, to really change?  Like a huge, basic point of view change?  This is not an easy task at all, and involves changing one's character by about 180 degrees.  I suspect that ones that are capable of doing this are masters.  I think that to get out of a passed-down dynamic of this nature would be herculean.  

 

All I  know is that I think reparations are long overdue.  i say this in the spirit that I know that 'I Am' every person, every race, every nationality.  I Am everyone, and what happens to one happens to all. Times have changed.  Capitalism shouldn't be written in stone.  And I think it may go a long way in trying to right a wrong, and ease our national karma.  

 

 

[dawei]

18 hours ago, manitou said:

The uneducated are getting further and further behind.  The level of specialization within the scientific and academic fields gets higher and higher.  The disparity between rich and poor is already ridiculous, and it's getting worse all the time.

 

I think the time has come to consider seriously a more leftist approach, maybe trying to embrace the best of socialism and capitalism.  Certainly at some point this is going to have to take place, to get us past this awful divide we find ourselves in.  But the old idea of thinking that people should bring themselves up by their bootstraps and get no help from government is just a way of wanting to keep it all for ourselves.  Tax cuts have once again been given to the reincarnations of Dupont, Westinghouse, and Ford.  The rest can just go and eat cake.

 

You covered so many ideas but seemed to be suggesting the US has become a runaway train ride of capitalism that needs socialist turns to slow down.  I think that fair to say but I see the real difficulty is that capitalism creates a kind of power struggle which is then almost impossible to dismantle as who is going to give up the power?

 

Social Security and Medicare are essentially socialist programs, yes (?), so the US is not really foreign to adopting socialist ideas; likely they prefer to not admit the label.   I've wondered why we have not tried to expand those programs instead of creating new things.   I was against Obamacare.  Not because of its universal enforcement but the messaging was easily seen to be no true and not thought out.  It seemed to me, it was easy to see the train wreck it would produce.   It wrecked really hard here in FL when provider after provider stopped offering; some states were worse with no providers left.

 

I though they should just have a program for the poorest... so why didn't they just expand medicare to cover the poorest families.  It is a system that works and doesn't need to be built; maybe re-tooled but it has a foundation.   After they get it working for the poor, then move up the ladder.   But the really big problem is that costs have to come down.   And those in power [in the medical, pharmaceutical, etc] don't give up power easily.   So in a way, the karmic tide of capitalism is real. 

[manitou]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

 

 I think that fair to say but I see the real difficulty is that capitalism creates a kind of power struggle which is then almost impossible to dismantle as who is going to give up the power?

 

 

 

 

Yes, good points.  And you're right, who's going to give up the power?  It seems that the country is locked into thinking it's got to be a binary choice.  At this rate, the country will most likely implode from the weight at the top.

 

And I'd also like to start up a wager as to whether or not the current occupant of the throne will ever give up power peacefully.  

[thelerner]

We talk about social security and medicare/medicaid, but not super long ago,  my fathers generation, in the 1970's the top tax rate** was over 70%.  If you made over $50,000, taxes were about 50%.  That seems awfully high to me, yet the1950's and 60's were higher.  Taxes that high are pretty much socialism.  It was also somewhat remembered or mis-remembered as a golden age of Americana.   Maybe these days will too.

 

The truth is generally, despite political rhetoric, the best and thankfully the worst outcomes, don't happen.

 

 

 

**(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=2ahUKEwiTpOeqodvjAhUMVs0KHeQJBUAQFjADegQIBxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.stanford.edu%2Fclass%2Fpolisci120a%2Fimmigration%2FFederal%20Tax%20Brackets.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0sCc1jpFi_B1k5KQYIZ0hA)

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by thelerner

[Nungali]

On 29/07/2019 at 6:04 AM, sean said:

 

I only link to the Wikipedia on Anarchism as it's a free, relative decent starting point for further research and validation. The nice thing about Wikipedia is that it includes references and further reading. If you'd like I can also personally suggest a dozen rigorous texts on the history of Anarchism as a positively leftist philosophy.

 

You're also mistakenly equating leftism and authoritarianism when the two in are no way conjoined.

 

I wonder if there's also a negative reaction to a kind of literalist notion of the word "left" itself. As if "left" implies one's political philosophy has a fixed, "narrow" and halfsighted location in space. I'd contest that the directional connotation of the term "left" doesn't map over to anything meaningful about leftism as a political philosophy. For example, I think political centrism is incredibly myopic and perpetuates injustice despite the appeal of the world "center" as used in other contexts, e.g. "let's all take a deep breath and center ourselves."

 

Sean

 

 

 

I think there are two types of anarchist ; political and general .

 

You spoke well for the political type .   But the other type  !   (which seems to fit some people's definition here  )

 

EG.   On the commune  -  may years back there was a type of governance system  ' the trustees' .

 

 

It eventuated that most lived off property, did not live in or work  in 'the experiment' , did not supply funds or anything much - just had the land title and a mortgage to pay off ( which  they didnt )  and a feeling of  'running the show'  ( and other  insanities ) .

 

briefly; they expected you to come,  with your own accommodation, pay to stay there and work for free , while they got supported for 'spiritual teaching'  ( about 'Pan' and 'nature spirits  '   .....  with no consideration for anything indigenous whatsoever ! ). people lived in bad conditions, one guy in an old chook shed . They had one small domestic fridge for over 30 peoples food and one hoover twin tub washing machine         .... remember them ?

 

 

idiots !

 

Anyway , as these things usually pan out , there was a revolution , etc etc , trustees evicted residents , most left, the hard core bailed themselves up in the barn and flew the Eureka stockade flag off the roof   ( Aussies  only real symbol of rebellion ever  )

 

 

 

 

( which is now 'banned'  in 'certain places'   by the way ;

 

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/eureka-flag-ban-industrial-dictatorship-says-cfmeu

)

.... or  ran away and hid in the forest when the police came to evict them .

 

 

Eventually led to a mediation where those left and the 'trustees'  signed an agreement that is the group formed a company to take on the aims and ideals of the 'trust' they would hand over the land title papers . They did, and over time we paid off the mortgage and all the debts the 'trustees' had run up ... started  converting the farm house to a community house, library and kitchen, put in a huge cool room for food storage, an amenities block with toilets showers and washing machines,  began putting on festivals, building a sound stage, set up 3 phase power  ... built meditation sanctuary by the river  etc etc etc .  YAY!

 

They even all sat down ( the revolutionaries) and worked out a new fair way to run things , new rues and regs , new assist and help programmes .

 

YAY !

 

But here is the thing ; I watched for over 30 years those same people that fought  for  their freedom  and implimented their own system and rules ... continually break them, complain about them, subvert them,  react stupidly about them, get told time and time again what they where  doing ... but kept doing so until they  eventually wrecked their own beautiful creation.  And then all the good people started leaving .

 

becasue they have NO concept of following a system , they MUST rebel against  any system - even their own  that they made up themselves .

 

Thats the other type of 'anarchist'  .   And IMO its a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE   fuck up !    And they dont get anywhere with it ... just continual fighting amongst themselves .

 

And besides - it goes against the first lesson of initiation and the first paradox of philosophy ... which every aspiring adult SHOULD learn ;

 

'In able to better do your will, and find freedom you will have to   subject yourself to  discipline organisation and training .'

 

Whether it is finding a new way to live , making a new system, practising  yoga or meditation , being a soccer player .....

 

But this seems unpop nowadays .... " I dont need that .... I can work it all out by myself ! "  

 

 

.... and with no self development training whatsoever  !

 

 

 

[manitou]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

We talk about social security and medicare/medicaid, but not super long ago,  my fathers generation, in the 1970's the top tax rate** was over 70%.  If you made over $50,000, taxes were about 50%.  That seems awfully high to me, yet the 60's and 50's were higher.  Taxes that are pretty much socialism.  It was also somewhat remembered or mis-remembered as a golden age of Americana.   Maybe these days will too.

 

The truth is generally, despite political rhetoric, the best and thankfully the worst outcomes, don't happen.

 

 

 

**(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=2ahUKEwiTpOeqodvjAhUMVs0KHeQJBUAQFjADegQIBxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.stanford.edu%2Fclass%2Fpolisci120a%2Fimmigration%2FFederal%20Tax%20Brackets.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0sCc1jpFi_B1k5KQYIZ0hA)

 

 

And in the '70s I bought my first house - best rate available at that moment was 13.75%.

 

Lerner, I checked out your stats and they made my head explode.   Can you tell us in 20 words or less what they say?

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Whether it is finding a new way to live , making a new system, practising  yoga or meditation , being a soccer player .....

.... and with no self development training whatsoever  !

 

 

 

 

Yes, yours is the way of willingness.  I wish I had gone that route.

 

Some of us had to go out and batter the hell out of ourselves for years, only to find that the only way to truly stay sober is by removing all the inner buttons that kept us drunk.  Anyone turning their life around against very bad odds, it requires you inside to face all fears and resentments.  The search for the inner buttons leads to the very same place as the self development training, I would think.  At least, it feels the same as what you're talking about.  And any rewards came as such a surprise to me because this spiritual journey wasn't what I set out to do at all; I would think many martial artists started out without the knowledge of what part the spiritual journey into self entails.  I would guess most young kids would get involved because of Bruce Lee or a similar hero.

 

Although you couldn't call recovery from habitual behavior  a voluntary discipline as required in a martial art, the daily discipline of self examination is none the less an art that requires diligence and extreme discipline.  There is a blend with meditation here too, as the only way to realize this degree of self realization is to be able to empty the mind to the exclusion of unwanted thoughts.  This takes a day or two.....

 

To my astonishment, at some point I realized the Oneness of all of us, and that we, communally, are the very mind of the creator process itself.  Evolution is Here and Now; but it also lays out as a timeline.  Perhaps it's the same dynamic as the as the particle/wave phenomenon of quantum physics.  either way...I'm good.

[thelerner]

14 hours ago, manitou said:

 

And in the '70s I bought my first house - best rate available at that moment was 13.75%.

 

Lerner, I checked out your stats and they made my head explode.   Can you tell us in 20 words or less what they say?

1970's the advent of Stagflation, the worst of all worlds; high inflation, hi unemployment, stagnant production.  The last decade withstanding, historically Capitalism moves in cycles of boom and bust.  The 70's had a nasty economic period where all economic rhythms collapsed all at once.  If you had money though interest rates were sky high, but that mattered little to those without and everyone saw inflation eat away there cash at 6 to 12% a year.  Most of the world was caught by it. 

 

One thing worth noting, if you had the money, the 70's and 80's were times of massive tax dodges.  There were investments made to lose money but shield 3 times more income then they lost.  Gas, oil, buildings.. lots of strange esoteric, semi-nonsense, social engineering type things made to lower taxes. 

 

30 words

It was a system built by committee.  Artificial.. creating holes and trying to plug them.  On the other hand, they paid there national bills and didn't run up sky high deficits. 

 

Here's the chart-

Edited July 30, 2019 by thelerner
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