Golden Flower | Beginner Journey

[freeform]

On 07/12/2020 at 10:46 AM, Spaceofawareness said:

when I say the light was turned around, I don’t refer to light appearing inside visually, but rather the light refers to awareness itself, and the turning around refers to instead of awareness being constantly directed outwardly, it becomes looped back on itself, through paying attention to things like the breath, thoughts, etc.

 

Both 'the light' and the 'turning around of the light' are much more subtle than what's been mentioned above.

 

There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding of the GF method - largely because the classical texts describe certain manifestations and principles - but not the methodology. The methodology is only ever taught directly by a teacher to a disciple. Any methodology in books is largely guesswork.

 

There are a lot of prerequisites before the GF method becomes possible. It's a pretty advanced practice...

 

The light being talked about is the light of Shen Ming - it's the light of your original spirit - it appears only at certain levels of meditation. It becomes apparent at the Jhana level of inner absorption - so beyond the stillness of samadhi...

 

So samadhi and jhana are a major prerequisite... without these, it's all just imagination. This is further confounded because what people think samadhi and jhana are is not right either... Often people confuse calmness and euphoria for these.

 

The light isn't the after-image behind the eyelids

 

The light isn't simply awareness.

 

The turning around is a fundamental shift in how your primordial spirit manifests into the earthly realm (our physical world).

 

It's possible to practice in an awareness-only approach, but this is only for the very gifted who naturally generate a huge amount of qi and have a natural ability to concentrate and absorb... One in a billion type of person.

 

For the rest of us there's about a decade of preliminary work to be done before we get to GF

[Spaceofawareness]

On 09/12/2020 at 9:49 PM, freeform said:

 

Both 'the light' and the 'turning around of the light' are much more subtle than what's been mentioned above.

 

There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding of the GF method - largely because the classical texts describe certain manifestations and principles - but not the methodology. The methodology is only ever taught directly by a teacher to a disciple. Any methodology in books is largely guesswork.

 

There are a lot of prerequisites before the GF method becomes possible. It's a pretty advanced practice...

 

The light being talked about is the light of Shen Ming - it's the light of your original spirit - it appears only at certain levels of meditation. It becomes apparent at the Jhana level of inner absorption - so beyond the stillness of samadhi...

 

So samadhi and jhana are a major prerequisite... without these, it's all just imagination. This is further confounded because what people think samadhi and jhana are is not right either... Often people confuse calmness and euphoria for these.

 

The light isn't the after-image behind the eyelids

 

The light isn't simply awareness.

 

The turning around is a fundamental shift in how your primordial spirit manifests into the earthly realm (our physical world).

 

It's possible to practice in an awareness-only approach, but this is only for the very gifted who naturally generate a huge amount of qi and have a natural ability to concentrate and absorb... One in a billion type of person.

 

For the rest of us there's about a decade of preliminary work to be done before we get to GF

I think it depends on the person and how active their mind is, and how identified as ego they are. For a person deeply identified, it might take a lifetime, for a more reflective person, maybe the 100days mentioned in the text is time enough with consistent practice.

 

If your effort is like water, acting only via the natural forces which move it, yet always returning to the most neutral place, it shouldn’t take a lifetime to realise, but consistency and the continual returning I would imagine are of utmost importance to stabilisation.

 

My basic understanding of the golden flower method is the discovery of your true nature as the space of awareness and the moving into this space and realisation of your nature as this space.

 

but first one needs to realise or notice this space before they can even move into it, Which is why the light must be turned around because the space will never be noticed outside of Oneself.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Spaceofawareness

[freeform]

Without meaning to sound harsh or critical (I'm aiming for 'helpful' instead )

 

On 11/12/2020 at 3:59 AM, Spaceofawareness said:

My basic understanding of the golden flower method is the discovery of your true nature as the space of awareness and the moving into this space and realisation of your nature as this space.

 

Interpretations of classical methods won't get you far.

 

There's a very unambiguous oral tradition that explains exactly how to achieve the milestones talked about. (Wang Liping teaches it - it's one of the core aspects of several Longmen Pai (and in fact Shangqing) traditions.)

 

Despite how it appears - it's very unambiguous...

 

For instance when the light appears - it's not in the least bit subtle or vague - it's a brilliant, almost painfully bright light. Although it's talked about vaguely in texts - which invites interpretation... these texts were designed as handbooks for students already going through the process with a teacher.

 

If this is really fascinating for you (as it is for me!) - I would suggest trying to find a genuine teacher that can teach the method and theory... Wang Liping and his student Nathan Brine are a great start

[Spaceofawareness]

22 hours ago, freeform said:

Without meaning to sound harsh or critical (I'm aiming for 'helpful' instead )

 

 

Interpretations of classical methods won't get you far.

 

There's a very unambiguous oral tradition that explains exactly how to achieve the milestones talked about. (Wang Liping teaches it - it's one of the core aspects of several Longmen Pai (and in fact Shangqing) traditions.)

 

Despite how it appears - it's very unambiguous...

 

For instance when the light appears - it's not in the least bit subtle or vague - it's a brilliant, almost painfully bright light. Although it's talked about vaguely in texts - which invites interpretation... these texts were designed as handbooks for students already going through the process with a teacher.

 

If this is really fascinating for you (as it is for me!) - I would suggest trying to find a genuine teacher that can teach the method and theory... Wang Liping and his student Nathan Brine are a great start

Not at all.

 

GF talks of the “celestial eye” which I think is actually what I am describing. But it seems that is just the starting point. So what I mention is just the basis of what this Neidan work talks about. I don’t actually know anything firsthand about neidan. Maybe I am just not there yet.

 

But what I speak of does seem to be part of GF.

 

I have stumbled across Nathan Brine, still evaluating whether it’s all bs or something there.

 

i come at this from a skeptics POV, unfortunately it’s just a perspective I have to work from. I assume something which sounds ridiculous is, unless I experience otherwise. Yet at the same time, I am open to new things. I am open to discovering this new world of neidan. I place the burden squarely on myself to discover any truth in claims.

 

Most people wouldn’t even believe what I have discovered about the nature of reality, so I also realise my view is an extreme or not normal one, yet it seems there is much more to discover potentially.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Spaceofawareness

[freeform]

13 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

GF talks of the “celestial eye” which I think is actually what I am describing.

I can only talk from my experience - which includes many years of doing this stuff full time with very experienced teachers around the world. Including training (and results) from the GF line of internal practice.
 

This stuff isn’t that intuitive (in many ways it’s counter-intuitive) - it’s not possible to ‘reverse engineer’ accurate understanding of this particular process. I can tell you that each and every concept is unambiguous and specific - with not much wiggle room for personal interpretation.
 

But I’m not trying to dissuade you getting into this stuff - very much the opposite... with the caveat being that it’s probably not what you think - meaning you must find people with genuine understanding and results from this sort of training  
 

13 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

i come at this from a skeptics POV, unfortunately it’s just a perspective I have to work from.

 

Nothing unfortunate about it  I think you have a very healthy perspective. There is a lot of delusion in these arts. It’s hard to gain access to genuine methods... Blind belief and lack of discernment is a guarantee of getting stuck in a pitfall...

[Creation]

Hi @Spaceofawareness,

 

The reversal of ordinary awareness to it's source, the what you could call the space of awareness, is something that is done in paths that focus on sudden awakening to what is variously called the nature of mind, nature of consciousness, or the nature of self.  For instance, Dzogchen, Zen, and Mahamudra. 

 

It would seem that this is not actually what The Secret of the Golden Flower is talking about, although the connection is very tempting to make if you are familiar with one of these paths and come across SotGF.  The light referred to in SotGF is more like the light of the nimitta in Theravada Buddhism, and the light seen in the third eye in Samadhi-oriented Yoga traditions such as Kriya Yoga.  There is also some information out there that says SotGF is a way to awaken kundalini.  freeform can speak with (much) more authority about this than I can, but the impression I get is that part of the Daoist path that deals with kundalini awakening is not the same as the part that SotGF is describing. 

[Spaceofawareness]

6 hours ago, Creation said:

Hi @Spaceofawareness,

 

The reversal of ordinary awareness to it's source, the what you could call the space of awareness, is something that is done in paths that focus on sudden awakening to what is variously called the nature of mind, nature of consciousness, or the nature of self.  For instance, Dzogchen, Zen, and Mahamudra. 

 

It would seem that this is not actually what The Secret of the Golden Flower is talking about, although the connection is very tempting to make if you are familiar with one of these paths and come across SotGF.  The light referred to in SotGF is more like the light of the nimitta in Theravada Buddhism, and the light seen in the third eye in Samadhi-oriented Yoga traditions such as Kriya Yoga.  There is also some information out there that says SotGF is a way to awaken kundalini.  freeform can speak with (much) more authority about this than I can, but the impression I get is that part of the Daoist path that deals with kundalini awakening is not the same as the part that SotGF is describing. 

Thanks Creation, 

 

after delving further into this text and topic, it seems to be more clear to me that you are correct, though Thomas Cleary’s interpretation of GF seems more inline with an awareness interpretation, yet the unknown and more esoteric parts of the text still seem to allude to that which you mention.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spaceofawareness

[Spaceofawareness]

What I don’t understand though, is much of the golden flower text actually mentions mindfulness, and thus the application of awareness to the mind.

 

specific parts talk of “stopping and seeing” which quite obviously refer to the process of interrupting awareness from distraction and observing a distraction, unless my interpretation is way off. 
 

it’s pretty clear at least some part of GF is aimed at awareness practices, yet it also has the neidan side which you both mentioned. 
 

Yet it doesn’t specifically differentiate the two practices, even though they seem rather distinct, at least to me, though I know little of neidan directly.

 

Not sure if it was intentional to make this vague on the part of the author, or maybe the text has been meddled with over time.

 

here is an excerpt from chapter 3:

 

Quote

17. Stopping and observing (止观) is a Buddhist method that originally was not secret. One looks attentively with both eyes at the tip of the nose, sits upright in a comfortable position, and focuses the heart around the center, which is also called the Yellow Middle in Taoism. It not necessarily means the center of the head. It is only a matter of fixing one's attention on the point which lies between the two eyes. Light is something extremely volatile. When one fixes the attention on the mid-point between the two eyes, the light naturally enters. One doesn`t need to direct the attention to the middle castle. These few words include all essential points. As for the rest, matters of entering and exiting stillness, the prelude and the aftermath, one can check the book Small Stopping and Observing for a reference.                    

18. Focusing around the center is a very subtle expression. The center is omnipresent; the whole universe is contained in it. This indicates the crucial point of Creation, and through this one enters the gate. One takes focusing as a hint, so that one doesn`t become rigidly fixed. This expression is alive and subtle.  

19. Stopping and observing are inseparable; they mean concentration and insight. When thoughts arise, you don't need to sit still as before, but you should investigate this thought: where is it? Where does it come from? Where does it go? Repeat this inquiry until you realize it cannot be grasped, then you will see where thoughts arise. After that you don`t need to seek out the point of arising any more. Having looked for my mind, I realize it cannot be grasped; I have pacified your mind for you.

20. This is right observation. What opposes this is incorrect. Once one realizes it cannot be grasped, one keeps practicing stopping followed by observing and keeps practicing observing followed by stopping. This is the double cultivation of  stopping and observing. This is turning the light around. The turning around is stopping, the light is observing. Stopping without observing is called turning around without light; observing without stopping is called having the light without turning it around. Remember this.

It seems there are at least two interpretations of what turning the light around is focussed on in the GF.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spaceofawareness

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

here is an excerpt from chapter 3:

 

Interpretations of interpretations I'm afraid.

 

With interpretations, people can only use their prior knowledge and experience to generate their interpretation... In this case it's understanding of Buddhist methods.

 

 

17 hours ago, Creation said:

There is also some information out there that says SotGF is a way to awaken kundalini.  freeform can speak with (much) more authority about this than I can, but the impression I get is that part of the Daoist path that deals with kundalini awakening is not the same as the part that SotGF is describing.

 

Yes - your impression is spot on. The GF deals with a similar 'level' as shakti... it's dealing with a form of Shen Light - a kind of divine light... but it's not stimulating the shakti force at the base of the spine... it's generating light at the centre of the central channel - then working with it in some specific ways.

[Spaceofawareness]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Interpretations of interpretations I'm afraid.

 

With interpretations, people can only use their prior knowledge and experience to generate their interpretation... In this case it's understanding of Buddhist methods.

 

 

 

Yes - your impression is spot on. The GF deals with a similar 'level' as shakti... it's dealing with a form of Shen Light - a kind of divine light... but it's not stimulating the shakti force at the base of the spine... it's generating light at the centre of the central channel - then working with it in some specific ways.

So in your opinion, does this working with inner light come with the same risks as kundalini type of work? Is kundalini awakening or experience necessary to do this neidan inner light work?

[freeform]

11 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

So in your opinion, does this working with inner light come with the same risks as kundalini type of work? Is kundalini awakening or experience necessary to do this neidan inner light work?

No - this isn’t risky in the same way as kundalini. You don’t need kundalini as a prerequisite - but you do need several other internal conditions for it to work. 
 

GF is an advanced practice. Not advanced coz it’s hard or complicated or extra powerful. It’s advanced in the sense that you need to have achieved certain preconditions for it to actually work.

 

The preconditions are ‘building the foundation’ (the result of Neigong practice) and various Xin Fa (mind development methods) as well as the ability to sit in unwavering stillness (both body and mind)... This is sufficient to start the practice. However it works most effectively when you’re able to enter meditation (samadhi) and the inner light starts to manifest automatically for you.

 

Id estimate around 5 to 10yrs of dedicated practice to achieve the preconditions necessary.

 

These arts always build one thing on another... 

 

As modern people we think in reductionistic ways which means we like to isolate elements and look at them out of context (like the guy in the gym who does leg day and chest day - instead of treating his body as a whole)

 

But these arts are very context dependent. People in the past would not have access to classical texts without someone knowledgeable introducing them to it. This introduction usually happened in a teacher-student relationship - and only when the student was ready to receive it (just like you wouldn’t teach quantum mechanics to school kid who just started learning physics).

[Spaceofawareness]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

No - this isn’t risky in the same way as kundalini. You don’t need kundalini as a prerequisite - but you do need several other internal conditions for it to work. 
 

GF is an advanced practice. Not advanced coz it’s hard or complicated or extra powerful. It’s advanced in the sense that you need to have achieved certain preconditions for it to actually work.

 

The preconditions are ‘building the foundation’ (the result of Neigong practice) and various Xin Fa (mind development methods) as well as the ability to sit in unwavering stillness (both body and mind)... This is sufficient to start the practice. However it works most effectively when you’re able to enter meditation (samadhi) and the inner light starts to manifest automatically for you.

 

Id estimate around 5 to 10yrs of dedicated practice to achieve the preconditions necessary.

 

These arts always build one thing on another... 

 

As modern people we think in reductionistic ways which means we like to isolate elements and look at them out of context (like the guy in the gym who does leg day and chest day - instead of treating his body as a whole)

 

But these arts are very context dependent. People in the past would not have access to classical texts without someone knowledgeable introducing them to it. This introduction usually happened in a teacher-student relationship - and only when the student was ready to receive it (just like you wouldn’t teach quantum mechanics to school kid who just started learning physics).

Okay. 

 

As a long term practitioner of the golden flower method, can you share insights, developments, thoughts, feelings, gleanings etc? Where has this work taken you? What has it achieved for you? 

[freeform]

43 minutes ago, Spaceofawareness said:

can you share insights

 

Actually not a long term practitioner of GF specifically. I only started with that line of work in the last 2yrs. I prefer not to talk about spiritual stuff I'm working on. It's a subtle process - and not to be shared with others (at least that's how I feel about it at the moment).

 

Here's a thread where I go into the results of another (more foundational process):

 

It's spread over several posts as people asked questions...

[Spaceofawareness]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Actually not a long term practitioner of GF specifically. I only started with that line of work in the last 2yrs. I prefer not to talk about spiritual stuff I'm working on. It's a subtle process - and not to be shared with others (at least that's how I feel about it at the moment).

 

Here's a thread where I go into the results of another (more foundational process):

 

It's spread over several posts as people asked questions...

Of course I respect your privacy on this matter, I come at this purely as a seeker. Thanks, I have heard of the mco, though I’m not sure I fully grasp it.

[thelerner]

I find it hard distilling the GF into specific meditative exercises.  Going over my notes from various sources I read this-

'SINCE HEART AND BREATH ARE MUTUALLY DEPENDENT, THE CIRCULATION OF THE LIGHT MUST BE UNITED WITH THE RHYTHM OF BREATHING.
When you breathe out, let the light go out of your eyes When you breathe in, let the light go back inside. Make a connection between your breathing and your light circulation. This way you will give some work to your breathing so it need not have any other imagination. This is an imagination – you have given something.

 

That’s why Lu-tsu says: Man CANNOT BE WITHOUT IMAGININGS – not in the beginning at least. It is only at the highest peak that imagination can be dropped. But we can use it, we can make a stepping-stone of it.

Imagine that when your breath is going out, your light is going out. When you breathe in, your light goes in. Try it in a simple way: when you breathe out, just feel all the light that was in being thrown out. And when you breathe in, feel all the light of the existence entering you. And soon the imagination will become joined together with your breathing, will be welded with breathing. So you have used imagination. And then slowly slowly, let your breathing become calmer and quieter.

There is no need to practise any particular rhythm as they do in yoga, PRANAYAMA, because each person has to find his own way. The body is different, the mind is different – your breathing cannot be alike; you will have to find your own way slowly slowly. One thing has to be kept in mind: that it has to be made calm and quiet and musical.'

 

While the above comes from a problematic source- Osho, its something to try.  Part of my practice is a period of sitting in with eyes half open, breathing as quietly as possible.  I could add this visualization to it.  Stay with it for awhile, then let it go.  See how it feels after a few weeks. 

 

[Spaceofawareness]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Actually not a long term practitioner of GF specifically. I only started with that line of work in the last 2yrs. I prefer not to talk about spiritual stuff I'm working on. It's a subtle process - and not to be shared with others (at least that's how I feel about it at the moment).

 

Here's a thread where I go into the results of another (more foundational process):

 

It's spread over several posts as people asked questions...

Just read through that thread above re MCO. Coming at this from a complete newbie to internal alchemy, qigong, or any kind of qi exercises, where would you suggest I start, I don’t necessarily have the ability to see a teacher in person at least for the next few years, due to family commitments, however, I do most of my practices while I work, which sounds unlikely, however I have found ways to integrate training into my work schedule due to its repetitive nature, which allows me a freedom of awareness.

 

i know this stuff needs to be done while sitting, in a meditative setting, so I do have time in the evenings, though I have found meditation difficult at these hours due to falling into oblivion, which is why I have gravitated towards a more life integrated approach.

 

i would appreciate your experience in these matters, is there any way a person can guide themselves in these practices with videos or text, or is it so esoteric and individual that a teacher is a must? I consider myself a fairly intuitive person, however my mind body connection isn’t as strong as it could be, I feel like that might be a good place to start. Any ideas? Thanks.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Spaceofawareness

[Spaceofawareness]

Quote

Turning the light around is done not by the eyes but by the mind; the mind is the eyes. After long persistence, the spirit congeals; only then do you see the mind-eyes become clear.
When you observe mind and become aware of openness, thereby you produce its vitality. When its virality srabi- lizes, it becomes manifest, and then you see the opening of the mysterious pass.
Gazing at the lower abdomen is external work. As for the inner work, when the mind-eye comes into being, that alone is the true "elixir field."
The light you see before your eyes is rat-light, not. the light of the tiger-eye or dragon-vitality. The light of mind does not belong to inside Or outside; if you look to see it with the physical eyes, that is bedevilment.

From GF Cleary version, questions and answers section, pg 66.

 

Quote

The mind is the eyes

. This reminds me more of awareness, we have an inner eye, that is one way I conceptualise awareness. 

 

Quote

As for the inner work, when the mind-eye comes into being, that alone is the true "elixir field."

The elixir field. So it seems what this elixir is made of, is within awareness, or the mind’s eye, or is made OF awareness. Or maybe, by field, they mean the daoist usage of the term field, which refers to the ground of potential which contains everything required. So the elixir might not actually be just awareness, yet awareness or the mind’s eye is one ingredient, tool, or part, which is somehow manipulate, circulated, etc.

 

when you can’t even trust the text it makes it is hard to interpret this stuff. But, surely what rings true, that which resonates with you, should be trusted and followed. 

 

There is just too much in the way of like freeform said, the inclusion of awareness based influences of thought, to just pass off as tampering. Yet, do we think maybe interventions and changes have been made to the text to the point where the main line has been altered beyond repair? 

 

Why include these awareness focussed references, throughout the text, if they aren’t essential to the practice? Just an attempt to change systems of spiritual influence?

 

 

 

 

[Cleansox]

6 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

From GF Cleary version, questions and answers section, pg 66.

/... ... /

 

Why include these awareness focussed references, throughout the text, if they aren’t essential to the practice? 

Did you notice the reference to the dragon and tiger? 

 

I read somewhere that the golden flower is mainly on the Xing level. Now, I haven't read it in decades and haven't studied it as a part of a formal practice at all, but if I could speculate a bit; could it be so that the text is more useful after a practitioner have some proficiency in the Ming practices? 

 

In my view, that might clarify things. 

 

Btw, is Clearys translation the best option in english? 

[Spaceofawareness]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Did you notice the reference to the dragon and tiger? 

 

I read somewhere that the golden flower is mainly on the Xing level. Now, I haven't read it in decades and haven't studied it as a part of a formal practice at all, but if I could speculate a bit; could it be so that the text is more useful after a practitioner have some proficiency in the Ming practices? 

 

In my view, that might clarify things. 

 

Btw, is Clearys translation the best option in english? 

Honestly not sure, Cleary talks himself up compared to Jung and Wilhelm. What would you suggest?

 

I found it clearer than the Jung version, and without his aspects of the shadow being reflected in it, though I am probably partial to it due to it resonating with the more Xing related elements in my background. Though it seems much of the neidan is focussed on Ming aspects, I have also heard that the two are intertwined, or at least, work together and maybe lead to each other.

[anshino23]

16 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

i know this stuff needs to be done while sitting, in a meditative setting, so I do have time in the evenings, though I have found meditation difficult at these hours due to falling into oblivion, which is why I have gravitated towards a more life integrated approach.

 

i would appreciate your experience in these matters, is there any way a person can guide themselves in these practices with videos or text, or is it so esoteric and individual that a teacher is a must? I consider myself a fairly intuitive person, however my mind body connection isn’t as strong as it could be, I feel like that might be a good place to start. Any ideas? Thanks.

 

Not freeform, but hope it helps regardless. 

 

Damo Mitchell has released an online academy called the Internal Arts Academy. Here there are weekly lessons on internal neigong and building the foundation for later and higher levels of alchemy. This is a long-life endeavour so that is something to keep in mind. That said, despite not having direct face-to-face access, many are progressing well because the methods are authentic and their delivery by Damo is simply excellent. I highly recommend you join. We have an online Facebook group where you can take pictures or videos of yourself doing the practice for feedback if travel is an issue for you. You are also free to ask the teacher anything related to practice, and either Damo or another senior teacher will usually have great advice. So that can be a great support. 

 

That all said, it's important to realise that without dedicating at least an hour to two daily of practice, it will be difficult to see any results long-term. And that's formal practice time. Of course managing daily life is also hugely important, but we do need a dedicated time-slot to practice to make any real headway due to the nature of the physical changes necessary IMHO. 

 

Hope this helps! Best of luck moving forward. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by anshino23

[Cleansox]

4 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

Honestly not sure, Cleary talks himself up compared to Jung and Wilhelm. What would you suggest?

 

That was actually a question and not a hidden statement. 

I was considering reading it, but would prefer a recommended translation. 

[Spaceofawareness]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

That was actually a question and not a hidden statement. 

I was considering reading it, but would prefer a recommended translation. 

Okay, as I said, I like Cleary’s, going to give Jung and Wilhelm another go though, but I seem to remember it being a bit clunkier.

[silent thunder]

9 hours ago, Cleansox said:

That was actually a question and not a hidden statement. 

I was considering reading it, but would prefer a recommended translation. 

Wang Liping recommends the Wilhelm version at his retreats.

[Creation]

 

16 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

Honestly not sure, Cleary talks himself up compared to Jung and Wilhelm. What would you suggest?

 

I found it clearer than the Jung version, and without his aspects of the shadow being reflected in it, though I am probably partial to it due to it resonating with the more Xing related elements in my background.

I don't think either can be considered authoritative.  From what I have heard, Cleary's Buddhist background informs his translations, in a way that sometimes misses the original meaning. 

 

About Xinggong, I came at Longmen Daoism from a Tibetan Buddhist background, where there the two goals are realize the nature of mind and integrate that realization into the body using various methods such as inner heat, which works with internal essences, and practices with visions of light which spontaneously arises from your true nature.  So naturally, I assumed that this is what xing and ming cultivation refereed to in Daoism.  But apparently, Daoists don't really talk about the nature of mind like Buddhists do.  Ming is the work with internal essences, and xing is the work with the light of your original spirit. 

[freeform]

@Spaceofawareness 

 

Id suggest Damo’s online courses. Online learning is not 100% ideal - but several people i respect are getting a lot out of it.
 

Damo is an excellent teacher - everything is explained and nothing is ambiguous.