No more right-wing bullshit.

[doc benway]

I welcome the intervention Sean.

If only the US was a board and you were admin!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

12 minutes ago, ralis said:

I have pondered for several weeks if I should post this or not, but the time is right for it.

 

For ones that honestly believe that absolute free speech is harmless,  take a moment and engage in self reflection/awareness. Words matter as I have repeatedly stated!

 

A very good friend of ours lives next door, is very well educated, MD, PhD, from one of the top universities in the world. She is Jewish and is frightened/terrified of who may come after her because she is Jewish. Which is exactly what she told us over dinner a few months ago. I am not going to belabor this at all, but for many that believe that bigoted speech is absolute, then know that many don't feel safe in this toxic Trump environment here in the U.S.

 

Anyone that claims the path of Buddhism, Taoism or any other ism and has no awareness of the effects of speech and resulting actions on others is in name only. Honestly, I don't know why you are here!

 

My brother's wife is Mexican. 

She and their children are of a rich, brown complexion and she retains a distinct Mexican accent.

Since Trump's rise in 2016, she and her children have had to endure endless questioning from strangers about their heritage and legality, threats, demands to see ID, admonishments that they "go back to where they came from," and so forth. This happens at work, at school, in the community, anywhere! My beautiful nephews, children, having to face ugly white faces demanding they justify their existence. Why? All because Trump felt it expedient to scapegoat refugees and our poorest and most desperate neighbors, created largely through US foreign policy, in order to boost his political appeal. 

 

It was deeply offensive to see that same alt-right insanity invade our quirky little spiritual community here. 

The alt-right is a cancer. 

Cancer needs to be treated with urgent, loving, dispassionate, and radical excision.

 

Trumpian and GOP politics are inconsistent with spiritual growth and have no place here, particularly not in the way they've been on display by bullies and bigots. 

 

Thank you again Sean.

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

 

 

[Earl Grey]

5 hours ago, Kar3n said:

I've spent the better part of 3 years upholding and enforcing the egalitarian principles of this forum and defending the thing you, @sean set into motion years ago.

 

I left the day you chose to show how little respect you have for the team who kept this place afloat by closing reports and refusing to answer questions.

 

I've come back here to inform you that I believed in what you had going here. I loved that it was a diverse community awash with different view, people and practices. 

 

Sad you've chosen this path and shat on those who had real faith in you and TDB as a whole. It's really sad...

 

 

See ya bums. 

 

5 hours ago, Toni said:

But is that a political forum? I think it would be better to forget politics a little bit here. Just avoid it and focus on spirituality and the like. To ban and discriminate people because of their political opinions is very dangerous. Think well about this.

There will always be different opinions. History tells us about countries that have done this in the past (discrimination based on ideology), and the lesson is not very nice

 

3 hours ago, moment said:

 

The last two months or so Kar3n had started making snide negative remarks about people she did not agree with or like.  I found that unacceptable for a moderator.

 

3 hours ago, moment said:

 

She worked hard indeed. She also attacked several people on this site for no reason other than she did not like them, me included.  You will notice that I have no warnings, suspensions, etc.  The attacks were personal (yet done as a moderator) without warning and left no warning.  I spoke the truth here, I was not mean so, my conclusion is: You are being over-sensitive.  I will not discuss this with you or anyone else further because that would be ungraceful.

 

Free speech? If you include the countless insults and abuse that was levied against people here and abusive behavior unchecked as free speech, then the parallel I can think of is someone shouting, talking over others, belittling them for the things they say, and thinking there's nothing wrong with mocking them--no, that's not free speech, that's verbal abuse and bullying. It's all over the Trump thread, climate change, and even in some system threads.

 

If you include the posting of copyrighted material (and even if it weren't unethical posting) of something that is also dangerous for others here (https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/47557-free-hua-tuo’s-spontaneous-five-animals-play-qigong -zi-fa-wuqinxi-dong-gong/), then that's not free speech, that's encouraging piracy, which is against forum rules too. I would love to have this thread deleted. 

 

How about the double standards of telling someone like ilovecoffee that he's going off topic within one or two posts and yet joeblast can disrupt any thread he wants with his conspiracy theory nonsense, verbal abuse, and belittling? Sure, back in the day I insulted Mo Pai but got sick of it and wanted to make peace with ilovecoffee and I'm glad I did because we don't agree on many things related to internal training, but he won't follow me around and mock me in other threads for my beliefs--he stayed in his own lane and I stay in mine, and rarely did he stray from his focus. 

 

How about protecting an inactive member who has already been proven a scammer when flowing hands warns us for our own safety of what their newest scam was, pushing out esteemed member flowing hands from the forum for merely warning us? 

 

Or how about when one member invaded the Flying Phoenix thread and started trolling the topic and knew nothing about it, yet when I and other members told him off, instead of warning him for his posts, I am publicly humiliated with a screen capture he makes to try to ridicule me, furthered by your public scolding instead of a public warning saying I "have a lot of anger" in my posts instead of a more courteous PM to allow me to change things on my own and spare me the embarrassment, but totally disregarding what he did to troll the thread? And ignoring my PM asking "WHICH POSTS SHOWED ANGER?" doesn't help especially if prior she said to ask for help any time. Kar3n was a good mod in the beginning, but I have to agree she and the team were the reason I left the forum last year and only came back because of the one good mod who supported me without question, and that mod was NOT Kar3n.  The constant characterization I heard from many members privately when I first left and afterwards characterizing Kar3n was hypocrite.

 

This forum was not free speech-oriented at all, it was focused on granting the loudest and most obnoxious voices the license to do as they will if they shared the same political view, which in this case was the Far Right. I nearly left a second, permanent time because bullying was allowed and my anger (as with many others who share the same sentiment) couldn't stand how that license was allowed under "free speech" but nobody protected us from the harm--if anything, we were mocked for all the hurt we experienced. 

 

How about the first time when I posted I was leaving in my PPJ, s1va and others told me that I was just too sensitive and made no apologies for what they said? The moment you say someone is too sensitive, whether they are or not, you're refusing feedback for what may fundamentally be wrong, and encouraging bad behavior and dismissing a person's genuine feelings of being hurt or upset. Saying "you're too sensitive" by the way is a form of abuse, and it's called "trivialization". 

 

Yes, I got so mad that I told joeblast I wish he were dead when he invaded my personal practice journal and kept harassing me, but I did apologize and rescind that, and proved my point in my final post on the Trump thread how much jerk-ass behavior goes on in this forum, led by him and encouraged by the mods. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49376-trump-talk/?do=findComment&comment=894472. And yet, nobody seemed to mind. 

 

Fa Xin once jokingly posted that I remind the forum often how much I hate it and I replied in a very reserved manner that I used to love it, the response I got was that the forum changes as do communities--a platitude, but I respected the sentiment of trying to communicate support and hold no ill will towards him nor have I ever had bad blood with him, although it does not excuse the direction the forum has gone. No malice with you, Fa Xin, and actually no malice with anyone above, but the behavior that was allowed on this forum was honestly and frankly flat out shitty. 

 

Now, I've aired my grievances towards some of the mods and their actions, I will speak well for those mods whom I can't stand, who are at this point mainly Kar3n and s1va (the others, I have no issue with aside from the inaction). 

 

Karen, in spite of all you have done that has upset me and my friends here (many who left after being fed up), you were dedicated to your job, gave your time, gave your support emotionally to those you felt needed it like the suicidal members, and in your own view, tried to be as impartial and fair as possible. While I do not agree with how you executed it, I respect your dedication and how you were very fast in assisting others with getting PPJs or access to the men and women's sub-forums. 

 

S1va, in spite of our disagreement on that thread, and my disdain for what was trivializing my own hurt with what you and the mods did, you did a good job of advocating to not ban others or warn them as admin, preferring to "nudge" and gently advocate others to remember their better selves rather than lay down the law.

 

For that, I thank both you, Kar3n and s1va for what you have done and after airing my above grievances, I hold no more ill will and release the remaining anger I have, forgive you for everything else, and lay to rest my issues that had greatly disappointed me in my past year in the forum. I wish you all the best of luck and hope if you remain that you enjoy what the spirit of the forum means even if certain political views are off the table now.

 

To the rest of the mods from dawei to Fa Xin, Zhongyongdaoist and others, I have never had an issue with any of you, and if you are happy with the job you have done, I am happy with the job you have done too and wish you all the best of luck, while hoping you remain to contribute because I thoroughly enjoy interacting with you and reading what you write even if we don't interact much. 

 

To take a page from a friend, 

 

Best wishes.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Earl Grey

[s1va]

43 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

For that, I thank both you, Kar3n and s1va for what you have done and after airing my above grievances, I hold no more ill will and release the remaining anger I have, forgive you for everything else, and lay to rest my issues that had greatly disappointed me in my past year in the forum. I wish you all the best of luck and hope if you remain that you enjoy what the spirit of the forum means even if certain political views are off the table now.

 

 

Hi Earl Grey,

 

I never had any ill will towards you and certainly did not commit any action with the intention to hurt.  If you still feel I trivialized your hurt, I apologize for that.  I am truly glad that you are able to air your grievances and able to release the anger.

 

I wish you the best also.  Much Love .

 

-------------------------------------

 

I am very happy to see the Talk Trump thread shut down.  Hope this will stop all heated discussion about Trump -- both for and against.  

 

If it were only up to me I would have done this (and blocked all other heated political arguments), long time back.  I was also never in agreement with the amount of tolerance shown with respect to extreme views (from any side) or trading insults in the O-G area.  I was informed such lax rules were the norm in O-G area of TDB all along.  I mostly stayed away from this place.

 

 

[s1va]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

If you include the posting of copyrighted material (and even if it weren't unethical posting) of something that is also dangerous for others here (https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/47557-free-hua-tuo’s-spontaneous-five-animals-play-qigong -zi-fa-wuqinxi-dong-gong/), then that's not free speech, that's encouraging piracy, which is against forum rules too. I would love to have this thread deleted. 

 

 

Btw, I still do not agree with your views this thread needs to be removed from TDB and your repeated protests on the thread disrupting the discussion, which resulted in some member reporting the thread complaining on your actions.  This is what prompted the action from the Mod team at that time requesting you to let it go.

 

If you still feel so strongly that this thread has no place in TDB, you are welcome to report the thread to the new Mod team and they can take a decision after reviewing the thread and the details of the old report.

 

Best wishes once again!

[MooNiNite]

It's pretty intolerable when people discuss politics in the Off Grid section of the forum (designed for political discourse) and Hun Dun (designed for pointless bickering). It wastes too much server space in the end and raises forum costs and drains conversation from spiritual topics. 

 

Of course, Trump ("hewhomustnotbenamed") is the source of all problems so it only makes sense to ban him from the forum.

Suppression of belief systems is much more healthy than discussion and reasoning because those things could illuminate people to a conclusion that Trump isn't "IT" and that is unacceptable and too complicated to palate.

 

Even though in the Dao no belief system is perfect and no ideology is concrete, suppression of some ideas over others and segregation of people based on political and economic ideologies seems to provide a temporary warm and safe feeling to the one-sided members the Dao forum: particularly the ones who are damaged from the political tides and outcomes in the US.

[sean]

MooNiNite: The senile president that wants to build a literal wall and put children in cages is the best choice.
Also MooNiNite: Any boundaries I'm asked not to cross are suppression because Dao something something.

 

[Zork]

49 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

Of course, Trump ("hewhomustnotbenamed") is the source of all problems so it only makes sense to ban him from the forum.

Trump is the tip of the Iceberg. Populism is the real problem both in the US and in Europe.

 

2 hours ago, s1va said:

Btw, I still do not agree with your views this thread needs to be removed from TDB and your repeated protests on the thread disrupting the discussion, which resulted in some member reporting the thread complaining on your actions.  

Man seriously? First you are trying to reconcile with EG and then you are restating your views on a thread that shouldn't be?

You do realise that in a court the site is liable if someone gets hurt doing the form don't you?

 

PS no i won't start another round of confrontation. And

PS2 yes i know it is hard to prove in court but the karmic damage you will suffer for not doing anything is REAL.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Zork

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, s1va said:

 

 

Btw, I still do not agree with your views this thread needs to be removed from TDB and your repeated protests on the thread disrupting the discussion, which resulted in some member reporting the thread complaining on your actions.  This is what prompted the action from the Mod team at that time requesting you to let it go.

 

If you still feel so strongly that this thread has no place in TDB, you are welcome to report the thread to the new Mod team and they can take a decision after reviewing the thread and the details of the old report.

 

Best wishes once again!

 

So much for reconciling by going back to your original stance. My stance also stays because of my integrity of lineage and you can practice your own views from living unbound, which last I checked, had contradictory views to Taoist and lineage integrity, not to mention safety. 

 

Humiliate me as you did on the spontaneous thread by ignoring my report on the thread and then publicly posting what is a CONFIDENTIAL report, focus on allowing a controversial thread to continue discussion that was not even going on, making ME the bad guy for saying the emperor has no clothes. Now continue to stand by that and it undoes your apology above. I have spoken my piece and you have undone your reconciliation. 

 

Whatever. Garbage in, garbage out.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Walker]

Nuff respect. I also welcome the intervention.

 

In recent times it seemed like the cliques that formed in and were fueled by threads that might as well've been labelled "QAnon YouTube Fever Dreams" were spilling their culture into other parts of the forum, to the growing detriment of conversations related to seeking the Dao. It did seem like at least one mod was involved and egging some of this on with "likes" and comments. Having worked hard isn't an excuse for that. A shakeup meant to look squarely in the face of the cultural changes that have taken place since Donald the Trumpet rode down his escalator raving about Mexicans seems right, and right on. Words do have plenty of power. That power can and does extend all the way to, yes, as Steve said, jackasses harassing people of color because they picked that shit up online, or even jackasses bringing AR15s to pizza parlors.

 

"It takes way more effort to refute bullshit than to spout it," I paraphrase, but amen.

[wandelaar]

Mixed feelings about this. I don't like limitations on free speech. But mainly sad that it had to come this far.

 

Trump is the complete opposite of a Taoist ruler with his continuous bragging, delusions of grandeur, lying, name calling, intimidation of opponents, inability of considering legit criticism, and general lack of common sense. This guy behaves like a spoiled child, not as a wise man. Which is a very dangerous thing for a president of the US. I hope we get through his presidency without to much damage to the US and the world at large. Seeing this guy idolized by a great many Bums has been an unpleasant reminder of the simple fact that otherwise very sensible  people can greatly err in political matters without being aware of it. So I have mostly avoided participating in Trump-related discussions considering them as a hopeless waste of time. But I didn't like how those discussions (if you may even call them that) took up so much of the energy and attention of the Bums to the detriment of what this forum is actually meant to be about. I mentioned this reprehensible derangement of attention in a few topics.

 

Well - to conclude there are many else places on the internet where Trumpists can vent their opinions, and a forum on Taoism and spirituality isn't the most likely place to do so. Sean has a right to restrict the borders of what his forum is about. I think there is (or should be) a place here for talk about politics in relation to Taoism, but I am not sure that such is still possible in the current highly polarized and poisoned political climate...

[s1va]

7 hours ago, Zork said:

You do realise that in a court the site is liable if someone gets hurt doing the form don't you?

 

PS no i won't start another round of confrontation. And

PS2 yes i know it is hard to prove in court but the karmic damage you will suffer for not doing anything is REAL.

 

I was encouraging EG to air his concerns and let go of the anger.  That has nothing do with my views or decision taken by Mod team at the time in this thread.  I recall you were the other person protesting that thread but were not disrupting the discussion.  I have heard many such scare tactics as were applied on that thread pressuring the member sharing to stop and remove that thread, calling them secret teachings and it may harm others, etc etc.  Those were all addressed by the OP in that thread.

 

It's clear both of you still harbor resentments about this thread.  It's not my business anymore.  I have nothing else to say.   Take it up with the new team.  I doubt you will like their decision also.  Politics aside I believe the moderators of the site no matter who they are, will uphold the principles of the site.  

[MooNiNite]

7 hours ago, Zork said:

Trump is the tip of the Iceberg. Populism is the real problem both in the US and in Europe.

 

That's what we call sarcasm young lad. 

 

[Jeff]

The last few years have seen this site go increasingly more political, and further moving away from spiritual topics. Discussions around  things pro or anti trump have dominated the site, and to see this change has saddened me with the increasing polarity of the membership.  I have not participated in those topics as I dont care, and there is no point as no one ever really changes their views.

 

But, such an exclusion statement, just makes the matter worse and further locks this site into a political format, and mostly forgoing the possibility of free and open Taoist/spiritual discourse. The simple fix rather than banning or asking members to leave would have been to simply eliminate all political trump like discussions.  There are endless number of sites to vote pro or con trump, but very few for free and open spiritual discussion.  Now it seems that one more such site has been dropped from the world, leaving us with nothing but more increasing political polarity. Spiritual traditions are about moving beyond such dualistic views into greater clarity or oneness. Telling half the world to pack up and leave does not make the world a better place, it simple increases the framework of hostility and war.

[Zork]

8 minutes ago, s1va said:

I have heard many such scare tactics as were applied on that thread pressuring the member sharing to stop and remove that thread, calling them secret teachings and it may harm others, etc etc.

You still don't get it do you? There is a reason why it is not passed around for free without guidance plus the instrunctions were missing some parts.

That might or might not prove dangerous to the one attempting it.

 

The cost is there to detter practitioners who are not serious. Not to bankrupt people or cost them money.

[Earl Grey]

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

I have heard many such scare tactics as were applied on that thread pressuring the member sharing to stop and remove that thread, calling them secret teachings and it may harm others, etc etc

 

Wow, it's like you want people to know you know nothing about integrity of a lineage or safety of practitioners, especially for those with mental health issues who would be most adversely affected by it without guidance.

 

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

Those were all addressed by the OP in that thread.

 

Like a scammer says, "If you read the fine print, I am not liable." No, I don't want to buy a bridge you or he are selling and it's not my fault for falling for it.

 

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

It's clear both of you still harbor resentments about this thread.

 

No, more like you can't give up the fact the work you did was garbage. This is the same as saying others have a problem with Trump and he has done no harm, absolving yourself of anything you've done irresponsibly and placing it on others for not appreciating you.

 

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

It's not my business anymore.

 

The only accurate thing you have ever said!

 

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

I have nothing else to say.

 

Yeah, right. It seems you're more likely to respond each time you've been rebutted.

 

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

Take it up with the new team.  I doubt you will like their decision also.

 

Those who are most certain of themselves are the ones who do everything to deny facts presented before them.

 

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

I believe the moderators of the site no matter who they are, will uphold the principles of the site.  

 

Principles even you failed to uphold and as the thread proved, you know absolutely nothing about Taoist principles and lineage integrity. 

 

Why not return to a place with values more in line with your views at Living Unbound with the rest of the Far Right who have been booted? Allowing this crap to go on just as you allowed the bullying and abuse here in the name of free speech is a joke, and calling what we did scare tactics when we have no financial stake whatsoever but the safety of others.

 

Perhaps Sean won't eliminate that thread, but I hope to be more open to his reasoning than yours if he decides to retain it.

 

My three message limit for garbage exchanges with people like you have expired, and I won't say anymore about that thread because res ipsa loquitur--the thing speaks for itself. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Earl Grey

[wandelaar]

Ideally Trump (as being an important political phenomenon of today) should be discussed here from a Taoist perspective. But that doesn't happen. As soon as Trump is mentioned Bums (with few exceptions) simply forget their Taoist teachings and practices and start ranting for or against. It's a sad thing indeed.

[lifeforce]

53 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The last few years have seen this site go increasingly more political, and further moving away from spiritual topics. Discussions around  things pro or anti trump have dominated the site, and to see this change has saddened me with the increasing polarity of the membership.  I have not participated in those topics as I dont care, and there is no point as no one ever really changes their views.

 

But, such an exclusion statement, just makes the matter worse and further locks this site into a political format, and mostly forgoing the possibility of free and open Taoist/spiritual discourse. The simple fix rather than banning or asking members to leave would have been to simply eliminate all political trump like discussions.  There are endless number of sites to vote pro or con trump, but very few for free and open spiritual discussion.  Now it seems that one more such site has been dropped from the world, leaving us with nothing but more increasing political polarity. Spiritual traditions are about moving beyond such dualistic views into greater clarity or oneness. Telling half the world to pack up and leave does not make the world a better place, it simple increases the framework of hostility and war.

 

This is so true. I mentioned this to Sean a couple of days ago in a post. Maybe the better thing to do would have been to delete the Off Grid section altogether and get the forum back to something resembling a spiritual learning and sharing space. Then we could have still had the input from valuable, knowledgable members without the melodrama.

I rarely ventured into the swampish depths of the forum as politics and other associated subjects were not particularly beneficial to me. The internet is indeed awash with such places.

[MegaMind]

20 hours ago, sean said:

👋 Howdy y'all.

 

I wanted to tell you that I've decided to:

• Revoke all existing moderators.
• Ask all committed right-wing members of the forum to leave.

I realize this may seem extreme and come as a shock to many. I'll do my best to explain where I'm coming from, what this means for the forum moving forward and I'll also request help.

 

 

> WTF?

 

Pas de replâtrage, la structure est pourrie.

No replastering, the structure is rotten.

 

I made a fundamental mistake in the foundational ethos for this forum: believing that "no insults, be nice" is a powerful enough core virtue to sustain a diverse, healthy community.

 

The problem with "just be nice" is that it's impotent in the face of organized malice.

 

In a society where marginalized people often suffer invisibly, taking a clear, assertive stance against the creeping normalization of bigotry and even outright fascism whenever possible is far more important than being "nice" merely to avoid rattling an oppressive status quo.

 

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

— Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

> This is about Trump, isn't it?

 

Donald Trump is a menacing buffoon but also mostly a disgusting symptom of a very sick society.

 

He's also a kind of litmus test for how deranged I find someone's morality. Being anti-Trump is not "partisan" (if being nonpartisan is even possible or noble). One of the lowest ethical bars I can imagine is finding Trump repugnant.

 

I'm not even going to waste time enumerating Trump's voluminous flaws and demonic policy positions. If you're pro-Trump you almost certainly already know and don't care.

 

This isn't a debate. We have deeply incompatible values, and I'm drawing a line in the sand.

 

> What should pro-Trump and other far-right members of the forum do now?

 

You should leave.

 

If you're pro-Trump, I'm asking you to leave this forum. You're not welcome here anymore.

 

If you're right-wing, please leave.

 

We might need a bullet list. Here we go:

• If you're pro-Trump, please leave.
• If you're right-wing, please leave.
• If you're pro-border wall, pro-ICE, racist, homophobic, transphobic or misogynist, please fuck off and leave.

The web is awash with other far-right friendly dumpsters you can crawl into.

 

If you think it's unacceptable that I'm booting members with dangerous, disgusting, antisocial politics, you should probably leave too.

 

(Sidenote: If you're some strange brew of anti-fascist, social anarchist, left-libertarian, or anti-authoritarian, democratic Marxist, socialist or communist infidel, please stay and help me raise hell! ✊ Are there any other leftists here? 👀)

 

> This is an outrage!! ** shits entire diaper ** You're the real fascist, watch this 4-hour Youtube video, something something ...

 

I'm unfortunately acutely aware that if you're being asked to leave that you're not going to understand this decision.

 

I trust that you're going to settle on a self-serving narrative in which I'm a cartoon, totalitarian-communist, "cultural Marxist" suppressor of your patriotic free speech. I'm a hysterical, intolerant "snowflake" that can't stand proximity to your brilliant, hard-truths, lest I be destroyed by sheer "facts and logic".

 

I don't care. I've made peace with your ignorance.

 

Allow me to repeat for those in the back: This isn't a debate. We have deeply incompatible values. So much so that I'm asking you to leave my forum without further discussion.

 

> Did the moderators do anything wrong?

 

I sincerely appreciate the time and energy the previous team put into tending to the forum. If they made mistakes in terms of moderating, I'd hedge they were mostly a result of inheriting the laissez-faire, lazy-white-guy ethos that I unfortunately fostered and encouraged.

 

If you were a part of the previous team and are not being asked to leave and you still want to help out, please PM me.

 

> But this is a spiritual forum!

 

Spirituality without material roots is a dead tree, my friend.

 

The notion that spiritual cultivation, of all things, should somehow be categorically divorced from moral maturation and praxis is a "bad take".

 

This forum has always strived to be a big tent for all manner of weirdos from diverse spiritual and sociopolitical backgrounds.

 

But there have also been times when new boundaries needed to be set. This is one of them.

 

> But what about the terrible things that Obama, Hillary, etc. have done?

 

As I said, I'm not going to debate, and this isn't a political 101 education forum.

 

For what it's worth, here are some of my recent thoughts on the center-right led Democratic party and the rise of Trumpism:

• The Democratic Party is not inculpable for Trumpism
• Trump is not a unique Republican

If the grotesque insincerity of center-right Democrats (e.g. Clinton and Obama) are the reason that anyone reading this has hitched to the neoreactionary Trump dump-truck, please find a local shaman to unbind this rotten hex. There's a better and much more magical way forward. ✨

 

> I'm not right or left, I'm a truth-seeker, you're being unreasonable.

 

I've found that people who claim they're "neither right nor left," especially U.S. citizens, are usually center-right at best. (And often worse, e.g., right-wing libertarians or crypto-antisemitic conspiracy-theorists.)

 

The political terms "left" and "right" have ideological meaning. Likewise "centrism" is not defined via an attempt to locate a compromised middle ground somewhere between right-wing Republican monsters and diet-right-wing corporatist Democrats.

 

I've written more about this here: This is what passes for "reasonable" politics.

 

> What about free speech?

 

There's a popular notion that the only civilized approach to social disagreement is to always hear out "all sides" in the "free marketplace of ideas", an imaginary immaterial abstraction. That opinions, no matter how brain-dead stupid or toxic, should always be honored and meticulously ironed out via public "intellectual" debate.

 

But this kind of free speech absolutism is often a pretentious stance weaponized to platform memetic bigotry and silence already marginalized views.

 

By extreme analogy, imagine if there were pro-slavery members on this forum. My stance is that it's a complete waste of time to argue with these people. It would pollute our space with the delusion that both sides of this "debate" are legitimate.

 

I think most of us would agree that bans of racist and violent speech are appropriate. I'm drawing a new, firmer line in the sand.

 

No racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, climate change denial, fascism, crypto-fascism, antisocial bigotry, or far-right bullshit in general (including QAnon and Pizzagate lunacy).

 

There are plenty of other reactionary ashcans on the Internet for these "very fine folks" to brigade.

 

Speech is not harmless. Speech has real, immediate, direct, material consequences on other human beings. Implicitly allowing socially toxic rhetoric to continue platforming itself unchecked in a space, poisons that space, and disproportionately harms the least powerful.

 

> This is a slippery slope, where will it end?

 

Fully automated luxury gay space communism, obviously. You should probably leave now before the communism and gay-stuff starts happening. 🍆💦

 

> This seems exclusionary and mean.

 

It's exclusionary and not nice, but I don't think it's mean, at least not senselessly.

 

Ask yourself, how many thoughtful, gracious members of this forum have quietly left after seeing relatively uncontested right-wing bullshit plastered across the forums here? I'm aware of several personally.

 

And I don't think the bullshit here is undisputed because of implicit support. I think it's merely sidestepped for the same reason most reasonable people avoid challenging someone screaming evangelical diatribes on the subway. It's literally just not worth the effort. i.e., "the amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than to produce it."

 

There's plenty of other subways on the internet to scream inside. This one is no longer tolerating right-wing bullshit.

 

> Are we abandoning confused people who maybe need this forum the most?

 

Meh. I think this question comes from a decent place. But this isn't a political education forum. My stance is that we need to reestablish a bare minimum baseline of shared values.

 

> Are you still with me?

 

If so, that must mean:

1. You weren't asked to leave.
2. You think it's okay and even very good that I've gone full heruka.

Welcome! I'm delighted to have you here. I hope you'll stay. ❤️

 

And I hope you'll stand in solidarity with me as I perch precariously on this fraught limb I've now climbed out on. It's my sincere hope that we can reclaim and reenchant The Dao Bums as a weird-left-friendly space again.

 

> Will you help me?

 

I do need your help. In fact I won't be able to do this without you. Please PM me if you're interested in helping our community. There will be free snacks. 🙃

 

With Love,

Sean

 

 

 

As silly as this sounds for a grown man, I sincerely cried when I read this. 

 

These people have made life a living hell for our entire group.

 

Sean from the bottom of my heart, thank you sir.

 

 

[Spotless]

Personally I would like to thank ralis for fighting the exhaustive fight of bringing truth to light in the extremely dark and demented threads that were pretended to be discussions of politics.  Very rarely but occasionally it would come to me to venture into the hell realms there and strike a match in hopes of dissipating the mounting gas.

 

It has been difficult to watch nazis and their ilk be coddled and given voice - anywhere - but in this wonderful possibility - in this light filled community it has been especially odd and grievous.

 

I look forward to this fresh breeze of adjustment - like a fast - it is a re-alignment with the essence of its origin.

 

And like a fast - it is a welcome but abrupt change in the status quo - something simple dieting just can't seem to comprehend.

 

I look forward to finding out more of what my place is in all of this - I am not versed in the background of politics much and do not know what to call myself if I were incline to do so - but certainly to the left of what most call the left these days.

 

This daunting job Sean has set upon is as admirable as it is something to see and witness - and give aid too even if simply in withholding judgement. Perhaps in a sort of microcosm it will shed light upon how we can begin to rid this country of the same sort of despicable enabling that has taken place in the opiate of "open discourse" and polite sleep.

 

We should not go silently into the night - we are not here to hid our light - nor blend it with vinegar.

 

It is not just in the political threads - it is clear that many are here that have no interest in self reflection (however difficult it may be to affix that label to a discipline). Many rejoice in their cutting off of spirit - in their puffery and 'bigness" - it has been at the expense of intimacy and depth - and it derails countless interactions and discovery.

 

It is also difficult to rule out the possibility that some who have come here have been paid to disrupt and spew - their intelligence and deliberate engineering in false topic headings and clear harboring of contrary beliefs to the leanings of the simple name of this community is certainly not beyond what has become rampant in the exploitation of social media as a means to specifically engineer and undermine. 

 

To all those that have given their time and diligence I thank you - this is difficult - a bit like taking a group of cats out for a walk.

 

Like the fresh air after a great rain - and the energy of the lightning still resonating in the exuberance of the air - I so welcome everything that has been said in tone and content and extent by Sean that it is dazzling and rainbow vivid as is so rarely the case in reconciling habituations that need amending.

 

All the very best to that which is departing and the light that is pouring forth!

Edited July 31, 2019 by Spotless

[sean]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are endless number of sites to vote pro or con trump, but very few for free and open spiritual discussion.  Now it seems that one more such site has been dropped from the world, leaving us with nothing but more increasing political polarity. Spiritual traditions are about moving beyond such dualistic views into greater clarity or oneness. Telling half the world to pack up and leave does not make the world a better place, it simple increases the framework of hostility and war.

 

A: It's OK and very fun to say and do racist things.

B: It's not OK and in fact wrong to speak and behave racistly.

 

There. I've created a "duality" for us. But what spiritual tradition asks us to "move beyond such dualistic views"?

 

Also, not to nitpick, but Trump supporters are not "half the world". Trump was the third most popular choice after not voting at all (42% of the U.S.), and voting for Hillary Clinton (nearly 3 million more votes than Trump).

 

Sean

 

[wandelaar]

Thinking about it somewhat more the suggestion to simply close "The Pavilion" part of the forum looks like a less partisan solution to the problem. The general rule could then become that politics is no longer discussed on this forum unless explicitly in the context of Taoism and/or spirituality. I am afraid there is no simple and pain free way out of the dilemma, but shutting down "The Pavilion" might be the lesser evil.

[manitou]

Hi Sean,

 

I remember how much I enjoyed the forum before it broke up into so many smaller specialized sections.  Part of the problem might be of fermentation; folks sticking with the same topic category and not exposing themselves to other viewpoints.  When folks are talking to each other under the same umbrella, day after day, maybe things get a little rank.

 

 

[lifeforce]

So, just to clear things up, who is welcome here now ?

I am not from the USA, and as such, have no interest in Trump related posts.

As I show no political persuasion whatsoever, are my views, posts and comments considered inferior to those with leftist views ?

I may be mistaken, but the vibe I am feeling is that only those who believe in a certain ideology are worthy of membership.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, sean said:

 

A: It's OK and very fun to say and do racist things.

B: It's not OK and in fact wrong to speak and behave racistly.

 

There. I've created a "duality" for us. But what spiritual tradition asks us to "move beyond such dualistic views"?

 

Also, not to nitpick, but Trump supporters are not "half the world". Trump was the third most popular choice after not voting at all (42% of the U.S.), and voting for Hillary Clinton (nearly 3 million more votes than Trump).

 

Sean

 

 

Pretty much all spiritual traditions ask you to move beyond such views that you are implying of good and bad.  But, you did not respond to the point of my post, additionally you only copied a small part of my post to create a misleading view (seemly imply that I am somehow racist) of my point/position.

 

My point was about open spiritual discussions, obviously there should be a non-racist policy with posts (and I believe that has always been the case with the moderating team). Why not simply stop the political stuff and move the focus back to spiritual discussions (without a voting litmus test).  Each post (if somehow racist) can be dealt with through moderation.

 

What are you attempting to stop?