No more right-wing bullshit.

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

social and political issues could - in principle - be discussed from a Taoist perspective, but that this would be a very delicate matter indeed

 

It would also need a lot of education on Taoism because people have various interpretations and understanding of it. At times the forum feels more like it's New Age rather than Taoist with some practices of people being self-taught and sounding more like someone from a strip mall yoga studio doing Reiki 1 and 2 on a weekend. 

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ OldDog

 

Lao tsu had some moral rules of thumb to offer, but Chuang tsu hardly so. That's why I think that social and political issues could - in principle - be discussed from a Taoist perspective, but that this would be a very delicate matter indeed. The necessary subtle reasoning would probably fall on deaf ears given the current heated and polarized political atmosphere.

 

Most are Taoist, Buddhist or whatever ism in name only with very little self awareness, let alone understand the workings of the cosmos. That would be an exercise in futility!

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Most are Taoist, Buddhist or whatever ism in name only with very little self awareness, let alone understand the workings of the cosmos. That would be an exercise in futility!

 

If someone could actually take time to run an informal class, and people were open to it, it might work.

 

A lot of people come here unfortunately to find power or reinforce the idea they have it independently, compare notes on systems, and demonstrate selective understanding and interpretations of the texts, especially devoid of cultural nuance. 

[sean]

Oh no. Looks like photographs are surfacing of Patrick Brown's experience barging into this topic. 😢

 

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said:

Hack it back ...

 

Some restructuring does seem to be in order ... But, yeah, simplicity is always a good idea. And, don't forget, we still have our personal practice threads, which often seem to be used to express narrower points of view.

 

 

[ilumairen]

Forget it.. decided long ago not to interact.. forgot for a moment.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by ilumairen

[Spotless]

In general the Taoist / Buddhist / ism spiritual discussions here are above average - all things considered:

 

For the most part - and I think this will improve to a very great extent going forward - we have a mishmash of people interested in inner growth and exploration - from all walks of life and from all over the planet. 

 

We are not from a single teaching and not being espoused to by any particular teacher or type of teaching - it should be messy and it is - and in this messy inclusiveness a great deal has come forth and continues to do so.

 

Most people are entirely asleep - some are in considerable flux - some have a clue or two and some are really set in practice and clawing along or with some a wind in their sails - it is always all over the board. 

 

New teachers, old teachers - good teachers and not so good - they all have a seat here - some have beginners mind and some believe they Know something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said:

But seriously there are way to many sub forums which is certainly part of the problem. If you allow a speck of bacteria to have a place to set-up-shop and breed then what do you expect? I never understood the women's sections as it just seems divisive. I think it's easy to come up with an idea and then just go with it without thinking it through. 

 

I think the lesson is simplicity!!! How ironic is that? 

 

Changed my mind again, you big bully. (If you've ever played halo you should hear the insult in a grunts voice - humor, right?)

 

I know well your thoughts on the women's area, and it exists just because of such thoughts, and the manner in which we will be coerced and bullied into further submission.. even a woman's area wasn't "far enough" from your damn table, and even there you had to dominate. 

 

Yes, how very aweful of me to share a paper about feminism in the damn women's area. It got to the point where I basically withdrew to my ppd.

 

Hi ho cheerio, and hip hip hooray, the men will tell us what to do and say.

 

 

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Changed my mind again, you big bully. (If you've ever played halo you should hear the insult in a grunts voice - humor, right?)

 

I know well your thoughts on the women's area, and it exists just because of such thoughts, and the manner in which we will be coerced and bullied into further submission.. even a woman's area wasn't "far enough" from your damn table, and even there you had to dominate. 

 

Yes, how very aweful of me to share a paper about feminism in the damn women's area. It got to the point where I basically withdrew to my ppd.

 

Hi ho cheerio, and hip hip hooray, the men will tell us what to do and say.

 

 

 

There should be a new rule in which no men are allowed in the women's area!

[OldDog]

4 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

You could have just let it go. I've had to ignore a few threads here because people took a different view and wouldn't let it go. I let go. 

 

Absolutely. Done that a few times myself. Periodically have to do a self check asking ...

 

Do I have a worthwhile point of view to express? Worthwhile mostly meaning am I soliciting meaningful feedback.

 

Do I even know enough to have a point of view?

 

Or, am I being tempted to push my own view just for the sake of hearing myself carry on?

 

... discretion being the better part of something. 😁

Edited August 1, 2019 by OldDog
spell check

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

There should be a new rule in which no men are allowed in the women's area!

 

She had posted in Nuwa which allows men... in some cases, women welcome men's comments on the topic at hand.

 

She could of taken it to the Women's Sanctuary which currently is private.

 

There used to be specific moderates (really Stewards) for that area but it was not what some wanted to do. 

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, dawei said:

 

She had posted in Nuwa which allows men... in some cases, women welcome men's comments on the topic at hand.

 

She could of taken it to the Women's Sanctuary which currently is private.

 

There used to be specific moderates (really Stewards) for that area but it was not what some wanted to do. 

 

Yeah, I could have made the post a whisper among other women, however I was foolishly hopeful the idea of what was being presented would be considered, and we could engage in dialogue.. perhaps even fruitful dialog. 

 

 

[OldDog]

@wandalaar

 

Hey, long time, no see.

 

Yes, Daoist discussion would be a very delicate thing, indeed. It would help if we could confine ourselves to exploring social issues and avoided taking up a politicised position. Would require the ability to suspend judgement. Not sure we are capable of that, though.

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

@ OldDog

 

Lao tsu had some moral rules of thumb to offer, but Chuang tsu hardly so. That's why I think that social and political issues could - in principle - be discussed from a Taoist perspective, but that this would be a very delicate matter indeed. The necessary subtle reasoning would probably fall on deaf ears given the current heated and polarized political atmosphere.

Social and political issues can be discussed and it does not have to be entirely difficult - but we can look at male/female discussions here and see that they usually end up with several members being barred or banned in short order.

 

I think that was solved by positioning them somewhat - not sure but they no longer seem to be a glaring problem. 

 

In any case - Social and political issues could be started with an implied requirement - to be open, to offer solutions, to utilize reasonably researched and relatively unbiased agencies of research and reporting - and a general intention of not constantly bullying everyone and tweeting snide remarks.

 

If one were actually in front of a great spiritual teacher one would typically give thought to a question or observation before bringing it before he or she. Definitely one would not walk down the aisle stepping on everyone and then yelling the question or observation with a requirement that the teacher and all those present must submit NOW - IMMEDIATELY - to one's rant or question or observation. And it is certainly not permitted to run down the aisle and take a shit and leave - and even think of ever being allowed back let alone given a key to the teachers house.

 

It is entirely possible to speak on social topics - schools, prisons, taxes, war, the death penalty, pollution - in a sane way. 

And it is possible to not allow pirates and thugs and righteous closed minded bigots from tearing up the carpet and polluting the air.

And in barring these hell realm elements one does not need to feel they are being antiseptic or enfeebled in doing so - shit smells and it is easy to put in its place.

[sean]

30 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Changed my mind again, you big bully. (If you've ever played halo you should hear the insult in a grunts voice - humor, right?)

 

I know well your thoughts on the women's area, and it exists just because of such thoughts, and the manner in which we will be coerced and bullied into further submission.. even a woman's area wasn't "far enough" from your damn table, and even there you had to dominate. 

 

Yes, how very aweful of me to share a paper about feminism in the damn women's area. It got to the point where I basically withdrew to my ppd.

 

Hi ho cheerio, and hip hip hooray, the men will tell us what to do and say.

 

❤️ 🙇

 

Sean

 

[wandelaar]

Perhaps the basic stance should not be one of debating but one of inquiring. Debating implies winners and loser, in the case of inquiring all participants could win (even those or perhaps especially those who find out that they have to correct some of their previous views). But its difficult and I often don't live up to it myself...

[gendao]

Oh, the irony, lol...  Seriously though, the Left doesn't have the answers to beat the alt-Right.  Nor do the Right have them, either...  Both are really stuck inside the same little frog well (Annunaki, colonialist foxes arguing about how to best guard the native, natural henhouse).  The real answer is a whole paradigm expansion that compiles both subsets into that same category...from zooming out-of-the-box into deep history and Ickeian exopolitics to see the REALLY bigger picture (spanning millenia) here.

Edited August 1, 2019 by gendao

[liminal_luke]

Many of us come to political activism by way of personal trauma.  We take up causes to correct systemic injustice that we know only too well because we ourselves are the victims.  Women fight sexism, gays homophobia.  Others come to activism not because they´ve experienced injustice directly, but out of a strong sense of empathy and compassion.  Some of us experience the pain of others so powerfully, so viscerally, that we´re moved to fight against the injustice of the world.  Either way, emotions often run strong.  Understandably so.  Our efforts to effect change are fueled by hurt and rage.  I´d suggest that this emotional turbulence, however justified, won´t bring peace or harmony or even justice.  The true revolution will not happen because we´re angry and sad; it will happen because we´re awash in love and joy.  An effective activist is a happy activist.  We need to work through our trauma first – in therapy or on the meditation cushion – before taking the fight to the streets. Otherwise left-wing distress begets right-wing distress, and vice versa.  Otherwise we´re caught in an endless circle of recrimination and contempt.

 

In the best circumstance, political action and spiritual cultivation intersect at the heart. I´d like to propose a politics of love.  Namaste: the divine spark in me bowing to the divine spark in you.  Can I see through the ways my conditioning has lead me, has lead you, to put up walls of hate and resistance...can I see through all this to the innocent child still there beneath the hurt?  Can I feel the infinite human depth of someone who sees life through a political lens that feels impossibly foreign?  May we approach each other with softness, with gentleness, and with unbounded respect.

Edited August 1, 2019 by liminal_luke

[C T]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Many of us come to political activism by way of personal trauma.  We take up causes to correct systemic injustice that we know only too well because we ourselves are the victims.  Women fight sexism, gays homophobia.  Others come to activism not because they´ve experienced injustice directly, but out of a strong sense of empathy and compassion.  Some of us experience the pain of others so powerfully, so viscerally, that we´re moved to fight against the injustice of the world.  Either way, emotions often run strong.  Understandably so.  Our efforts to effect change are fueled by hurt and rage.  I´d suggest that this emotional turbulence, however justified, won´t bring peace or harmony or even justice.  The true revolution will not happen because we´re angry and sad; it will happen because we´re awash in love and joy.  An effective activist is a happy activist.  We need to work through our trauma first – in therapy or on the meditation cushion – before taking the fight to the streets. Otherwise left-wing distress begets right-wing distress, and vice versa.  Otherwise we´re caught in an endless circle of recrimination and contempt.

 

In the best circumstance, political action and spiritual cultivation intersect at the heart. I´d like to propose a politics of love.  Namaste: the divine spark in me bowing to the divine spark in you.  Can I see through the ways my conditioning has lead me, has lead you, to put up walls of hate and resistance...can I see through all this to the innocent child still there beneath the hurt?  Can I feel the infinite human depth of someone who sees life through a political lens that feels impossibly foreign?  May we approach each other with softness, with gentleness, and with unbounded respect.

 

According to this writer, on its current trajectory, universal salvation is lost.

But tDB could still be saved, right? 

 

Quote

 

"The world is engulfed in stupid, which is a way to say: nothing means anything, precisely because the only kind of power we desire anymore is the power to take meaning away from things, not give meaning to them." 

 

 

Quote

 

"All those extremist parties arising around the globe? They look to America as an example — not as a warning. That’s what they want to become. Hence, the bombastic demagogues that run them stand for cutting public services, deconstructing governance, shredding the social contract, and replacing it with various forms of authoritarianism, kleptocracy, and feudalism, which don’t really have social contracts as much as pledges of fealty. It took human beings millennia to develop these things called social contracts — and yet here we are, timewarping backwards centuries by the month.

 

But it’s not just demagogues and extremists who want fealty these days, is it? I read an article in the Guardian where Elon Musk said that to survive the next World War, we have to colonize Mars. Ahahaha LOL. Elon. My dude, my dude. Maybe we could try to…prevent the next world war? You know, save millions of lives, instead of running away while they turn into radioactive dust?" 

 

- Umair Haque

 

 

Interesting piece of writing. Its called "The Age of the Imbecile". 

[sean]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Many of us come to political activism by way of personal trauma.  We take up causes to correct systemic injustice that we know only too well because we ourselves are the victims.  Women fight sexism, gays homophobia.  Others come to activism not because they´ve experienced injustice directly, but out of a strong sense of empathy and compassion.  Some of us experience the pain of others so powerfully, so viscerally, that we´re moved to fight against the injustice of the world.  Either way, emotions often run strong.  Understandably so.  Our efforts to effect change are fueled by hurt and rage.  I´d suggest that this emotional turbulence, however justified, won´t bring peace or harmony or even justice.  The true revolution will not happen because we´re angry and sad; it will happen because we´re awash in love and joy.  An effective activist is a happy activist. 

 

Really well said. ❤️

 

Reminds me of the stated premise of this book at the top of my read-next stack: Pleasure Activism. ✨

 

Quote

We need to work through our trauma first – in therapy or on the meditation cushion – before taking the fight to the streets. Otherwise left-wing distress begets right-wing distress, and vice versa.  Otherwise we´re caught in an endless circle of recrimination and contempt.

 

I think this conclusion, while a lovely ideal, can be a bit problematic though?

 

On one hand, yes, deeply unstable people filled with unexamined, violent rage fighting in the streets is not going to change much. But, well, first, why do people get to this point? And second, I think there's a way in which the other extreme can end up prioritizing an endless, private treadmill of privileged, self-improvement projects before ever lifting a finger to help those in need.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that, IMO, I think it's OK to show up to the fight imperfect and broken while you also engage in trauma and personal growth work.

 

Quote

In the best circumstance, political action and spiritual cultivation intersect at the heart. I´d like to propose a politics of love.  Namaste: the divine spark in me bowing to the divine spark in you.  Can I see through the ways my conditioning has lead me, has lead you, to put up walls of hate and resistance...can I see through all this to the innocent child still there beneath the hurt?  Can I feel the infinite human depth of someone who sees life through a political lens that feels impossibly foreign?  May we approach each other with softness, with gentleness, and with unbounded respect.

 

🙏

 

Sean

 

[OldDog]

We may have turned a corner on this thread.

 

Started out with the shock of the sanctions imposed and outrage over the justice or injustice of those sanctions. We worked our way through the personal rights questions.

 

The conversation seems to have evolved to ... How can we best deal with sensitive issues in a respective civil manner. A lot ideas have been offered. Should be enough common ground now to formulate a new direction.

 

Very encouraging Bums!

[Wu Ming Jen]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

We may have turned a corner on this thread.

 

Started out with the shock of the sanctions imposed and outrage over the justice or injustice of those sanctions. We worked our way through the personal rights questions.

 

The conversation seems to have evolved to ... How can we best deal with sensitive issues in a respective civil manner. A lot ideas have been offered. Should be enough common ground now to formulate a new direction.

 

Very encouraging Bums!

As long as everyone agrees with me on sensitive issues we will not have a problem.

 

If anyone disagrees with my very narrow point of view because it is really all about me, that is right the "me" that is delusional enough to think of myself as separate to all things. Those people are Fu@#ed up.

 

Seriously I love the new direction of TDB the new and improved version that can make this site a magical place to be... or not

[Wu Ming Jen]

Sorry about the rant Marblhead just told me to sit down and shut up!

[manitou]

3 hours ago, OldDog said:

We may have turned a corner on this thread.

 

Started out with the shock of the sanctions imposed and outrage over the justice or injustice of those sanctions. We worked our way through the personal rights questions.

 

The conversation seems to have evolved to ... How can we best deal with sensitive issues in a respective civil manner. A lot ideas have been offered. Should be enough common ground now to formulate a new direction.

 

Very encouraging Bums!

 

 

For a moment there I thought you were talking about the government.  Maybe we're a template to put out into the universe for synthesizing new and evolving governments.  It all starts with Sean flapping his  wings on this side of the world.

[manitou]

1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Sorry about the rant Marblhead just told me to sit down and shut up!

 

 

Tell him we miss him and to come back soon.  Have him give us a heads up as to what his new handle will be.