No more right-wing bullshit.

[OldDog]

It has more to do with the manner of discourse than the content. if aggressive,  denigrating,  profane and argument manner of speech is allowed, it becomes a thing of its own. Any effort to reach understanding is lost and the whole subject becomes mired in ego driven one-upmanship, shouting down everyone else.

 

Some subjects ... especially politics ... tends to attract this kind of rhetoric.  I think one has to decide what kinds of subject matter they want to see on a site.

[wandelaar]

@ MildMouse23

 

Ah - this is just as bad as the right wing rants you are protesting against. We don't need ranting from whatever side.

[OldDog]

Strangely enough, as I settled down to read last night, the following quote presented itself ...

 

If you want to get to the plain truth,

Be not concerned with right and wrong.

The conflict between right and wrong

Is the sickness of the mind.

 

- Seng Ts'an,  as quoted by Raymond M Smullyan in The Tao Is Silent

 

Naturally enough, my mind substituted left and right for right and wrong.

 

Just sayin'

[ilumairen]

 

12 hours ago, ralis said:

For background on this, Ian Kershaw's well written researched Volume 1 "Hubris" goes into detail as to why Hitler hated communists, socialists and so forth. I think it is on page 46.

 

Just sent you a PM about this...

 

[futuredaze]

4 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

It seems the rules and guidelines of this site are non political. Radical right wing bullshit extremist is not the way. The way of nature at extremes will revert back in the opposite direction to maintain balance. We are restoring balance. Look past the words. Using political terms is targeted at all the political bullshit on this site.

 

There are many forums for political discussions. Politics are not my interest on TDB and I do not want politics at all on this site IMO

 

Humanity's needs are the same in every country of this world. 

 

 

 

 

I despise the aspect of the far-right that believes they are racially superior, or that wants to inflict harm on Jews, non-whites, whatever.  They are evil.  However, I also loathe the far-left element that attacks people wearing Trump hats, believes that they are racially superior (there are plenty of black, hispanic, and Jewish supremacists out there).  Communism is just as disgusting as Nazism.  Communism has a significantly higher death count, after all, and though Nazism is more obviously corrupt, Communism is subtle and deceptive, but ultimately results in the same totalitarian, oppressive, death camp scenario.

 

If this post was against extremism of all sides, I would be all for it.  If one is seeing clearly and being honest with themselves, they cannot deny there is an extremist, hate-filled faction of BOTH SIDES. 

 

IMO, the hidden rulers of the world WANT there to be the extremes on both sides, so that a conflict can emerge that they can capitalize on, taking away peoples' liberties, getting more power and money for themselves.  The Nazis and the Commies are both useful idiots.  Having constructive conversations, trying to find common ground, love and forgiveness, these things will save us.  Of course, we need laws that will get rid of people actively practicing and planning violence, but that doesn't mean we need to silence everyone we disagree with.  People need to be more discerning, rational, and not so emotionally reactionary.

 

Even though I am of the right (though I have some left-leaning opinions), I have plenty of liberal friends and politics never makes me think less of somebody unless they are trying to force their beliefs, or they legitimately are filled with hate & violent thoughts, which is pretty rare in reality.

Edited August 4, 2019 by futuredaze

[futuredaze]

3 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

People who think logically, critically and are rational beings tend more often than not to gravitate towards the left. 

 

The right wing often talks of the liberal conspiracy to indoctrinate our children with liberalism.  

 

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5816094387001/#sp=show-clips

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Brainwashed-Universities-Indoctrinate-Americas-Youth/dp/1595559795

 

https://www.conservapedia.com/Liberal_indoctrination

 

To me it is very telling when the most educated and the most intelligent people lean to the left.

 

 

 

 

 

My personal experience in dealing with far right individuals is that this goes far beyond politics. 

 

Even if you ban all political discussion on the site, you still have people who are loud, obnoxious, and cannot be reasoned with as facts don't matter to them.

 

I have met far right individuals and found they think with their emotions and not with logic.

 

Politicians who know how to convince these people using emotional language and arguments.

 

They can convince them of any absurdity they want.

 

Look at this as a prime example:

 

 

 

 

In this video Newt Gingrich says that feelings are facts too, and that just because the FBI national statistics say one thing doesn't mean they are true as what people feel emotionally is more important.

 

You cannot present facts because facts don't matter, only feelings and delusions matter. 

 

So even if political discussion is banned, these people are going to continue to turn this place into a cesspit any way they can.

 

What we need here on this forum is a group of intelligent, rational and compassionate people,  not a group of loud obnoxious trolls.

 

Telling all these far right conspiracy nutjobs to GTFO and don't let the door hit them on the way out is a really good start to cleaning this place up. 

 

We don't need that kind of crazy here.

 

Just my $0.02

 

1. With the Trump-Russia thing having turned into an obvious lie, it is clear that it is the mainstream media that are the real conspiracy theorists.  Not to mention the whole "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" nonsense and all the other lies they have pushed.  Conspiracies are a part of history.  Check out the Cataline conspiracies in ancient Rome, for instance... Nothing new.

 

2. Read Aristotle.  There are people who speak and think using rhetoric (feelings) and those who utilize dialectic (facts and information).  Of course, everyone has emotions, but some people formulate their opinions from dialectic.

 

3.  Universities are generally left-leaning.  From what I've gathered, they used to be not so much, but in the last 30-40 years, they have become progressively moreso.  Read about "the long  march through the institutions" which originated from the writings of Gramsci I believe  (I may be mixing up my Commies).  The Commies couldn't get the Russian-style revolution they wanted, so they tried to infiltrate their ideologies through art, the education system, the media, etc.  Thank God for the internet.  They will lose.  Lies are not sustainable.

 

4. Being intelligent does not mean you are right.  Sociopaths tend to be very intelligent, but are total liars, selfish assholes who only serve their own desires.  There are many creative genuises who are plagued by mental delusions and psychoses.

Edited August 4, 2019 by futuredaze

[ralis]

21 minutes ago, futuredaze said:

1. With the Trump-Russia thing having turned into an obvious lie, it is clear that it is the mainstream media that are the real conspiracy theorists.  Not to mention the whole "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" nonsense and all the other lies they have pushed.  Conspiracies are a part of history.  Check out the Cataline conspiracies in ancient Rome, for instance... Nothing new.

 

2. Read Aristotle.  There are people who speak and think using rhetoric (feelings) and those who utilize dialectic (facts and information).  Of course, everyone has emotions, but some people formulate their opinions from dialectic.

 

3.  Universities are generally left-leaning.  From what I've gathered, they used to be not so much, but in the last 30-40 years, they have become progressively moreso.  Read about "the long  march through the institutions" which originated from the writings of Gramsci I believe  (I may be mixing up my Commies).  The Commies couldn't get the Russian-style revolution they wanted, so they tried to infiltrate their ideologies through art, the education system, the media, etc.  Thank God for the internet.  They will lose.  Lies are not sustainable.

 

4. Being intelligent does not mean you are right.  Sociopaths tend to be very intelligent, but are total liars, selfish assholes who only serve their own desires.  There are many creative genuises who are plagued by mental delusions and psychoses.

 

Are you attempting to derail this thread into another Trumpster thread? It won't work! 

 

#3 above is more right wing propaganda!

[sean]

3 hours ago, OldDog said:

Strangely enough, as I settled down to read last night, the following quote presented itself ...

 

If you want to get to the plain truth,

Be not concerned with right and wrong.

The conflict between right and wrong

Is the sickness of the mind.

 

- Seng Ts'an,  as quoted by Raymond M Smullyan in The Tao Is Silent

 

Naturally enough, my mind substituted left and right for right and wrong.

 

Just sayin'

 

Oh cool!

 

Wrong/Left: Kicking the most vulgar excesses of a fundamentally antisocial political philosophy off a single online discussion forum.

Right: Some other approach.

 

I'm glad we need not be concerned with resolving this meta-duality either. Thank you jianzhi Sengcan. 😜

 

Also: A literalist notion of the word "left".

 

Quote

I wonder if there's also a negative reaction to a kind of literalist notion of the word "left" itself. As if "left" implies one's political philosophy has a fixed, "narrow" and halfsighted location in space. I'd contest that the directional connotation of the term "left" doesn't map over to anything meaningful about leftism as a political philosophy. For example, I think political centrism is incredibly myopic and perpetuates injustice despite the appeal of the world "center" as used in other contexts, e.g. "let's all take a deep breath and center ourselves."

 

Sean

 

[sean]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Well - that's the problematic thing about all this. It's like cutting off one leg to save the rest of the body. On the other hand something had to be done. Anyhow, I think that for a Taoist there is or should be no place for triumphalism at this point. The Taoist general does what has to be done on the battlefield, but he doesn't take any pride in it and he mourns the casualties.

 

(Bolded for emphasis). Well said. I'm no Daoist general or anything, but FWIW I'm not relishing this. Quite the opposite. This is cumbersome labor and something I've avoided and tried to imagine alternatives to for years. Also, my felt sense is not that I'm banning human beings, or treating people with antisocial ideas as if they're discardable in real life. I'm halting the language of memetic bigotry from spreading uncontested in one online space.

 

Sean

 

[sean]

I've split the mass shooting discussion to:

 

Sean

 

[liminal_luke]

Here´s something you might not know about me: I´m addicted to political drama.  For years now I´ve been saying that the forum should eschew talk of controversial social issues altogether and return to it´s roots as a place to discuss Daoism and other spiritual pursuits.  I still stand by this opinion.  At the same time, I get a kick out of the drama of Off Grid.  It´s exciting.  Bad for me but exciting.

 

So imagine my alarm when Sean came along and actually shut down Trump Talk.  Where would I get my fix?  I need not have worried.  Now we have the "No more right-wing bullshit" thread and the fighting here is every bit as good.  Better than Netflix anyway.  

Edited August 4, 2019 by liminal_luke

[silent thunder]

I find it impossible to divorce spiritualism from politics.  Or to find any aspect of life that is not imbued with spirit, utterly.  That said, there are avenues of spirituality that are not only untenable, but an affront to the natural progression of the proliferation and thriving of life itself.  Hateful bigotry, misogynism, gay bashing, racial domination/discrimination are all aspects of a rotting spirit.  A rigid death laden decaying corpse in waiting.

 

To me, politics is the very fabric of our spiritual persuasions put into action.  Each political decision of a culture is an example of the spiritual tone of their inner landscapes.

 

As such, the recent tone, timbre and vibration of America and The Bums has been an eye watering, mouth gaping exercise of revelation for me, in realizing how depraved and bankrupt much of the spiritual landscape currently is.

 

One that for a time, shut me down in sadness and despair.  But the time for quiet has passed.  The time to watch and wait has given way to the need to act and respond decisively.

 

Time to act and engage.

[silent thunder]

Some actions are life anti-thetical and cannot be tolerated, or simply observed.  They by the nature of their essential vibration must prompt action, or by indifference, relinquish in one's choice of non-action a notion of consent.

 

No more consent.  No more observation without action.

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I find it impossible to divorce spiritualism from politics.  Or to find any aspect of life that is not imbued with spirit, utterly. 

 

In the movie 127 Hours, mountaineer Aron Ralston cuts off his arm to free himself from beneath a boulder that trapped him in a remote slot canyon in Utah.  It´s a horrifying flick.  This amputation reminds me of my own suggestion that we cut political discussion out of the board.  It would be a radical move, not to be undertaken lightly, because you´re right that spirituality and politics are inseparable: they are part and parcel of the same human body.  

 

Ideally, we could discuss anything here.  To put up a fence and say this-subject-no would only diminish us.  And yet I despair of ever being able to talk about politics in a respectful way.  I don´t think we can do it.  I´ve gotten to the point where I´m willing to cut off my arm.

[MegaMind]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In the movie 127 Hours, mountaineer Aron Ralston cuts off his arm to free himself from beneath a boulder that trapped him in a remote slot canyon in Utah.  It´s a horrifying flick.  This amputation reminds me of my own suggestion that we cut political discussion out of the board.  It would be a radical move, not to be undertaken lightly, because you´re right that spirituality and politics are inseparable: they are part and parcel of the same human body.  

 

Ideally, we could discuss anything here.  To put up a fence and say this-subject-no would only diminish us.  And yet I despair of ever being able to talk about politics in a respectful way.  I don´t think we can do it.  I´ve gotten to the point where I´m willing to cut off my arm.

 

From my perspective its not political discussion that needs to go, so much as toxic abusive members. 

 

More often than not these people are far right. 

 

I think the best solution is just to let these people go their own way, which is what we are doing.

 

We will all be better off for not having their toxic behaviour and energy here.

[manitou]

I despair getting rid of anybody, as we are all the same entity.  But as to answers to the problem, I have none.

[Wu Ming Jen]

3 hours ago, futuredaze said:

I despise the aspect of the far-right that believes they are racially superior, or that wants to inflict harm on Jews, non-whites, whatever.  They are evil.  However, I also loathe the far-left element that attacks people wearing Trump hats, believes that they are racially superior (there are plenty of black, hispanic, and Jewish supremacists out there).  Communism is just as disgusting as Nazism.  Communism has a significantly higher death count, after all, and though Nazism is more obviously corrupt, Communism is subtle and deceptive, but ultimately results in the same totalitarian, oppressive, death camp scenario.

 

If this post was against extremism of all sides, I would be all for it.  If one is seeing clearly and being honest with themselves, they cannot deny there is an extremist, hate-filled faction of BOTH SIDES. 

 

IMO, the hidden rulers of the world WANT there to be the extremes on both sides, so that a conflict can emerge that they can capitalize on, taking away peoples' liberties, getting more power and money for themselves.  The Nazis and the Commies are both useful idiots.  Having constructive conversations, trying to find common ground, love and forgiveness, these things will save us.  Of course, we need laws that will get rid of people actively practicing and planning violence, but that doesn't mean we need to silence everyone we disagree with.  People need to be more discerning, rational, and not so emotionally reactionary.

 

Even though I am of the right (though I have some left-leaning opinions), I have plenty of liberal friends and politics never makes me think less of somebody unless they are trying to force their beliefs, or they legitimately are filled with hate & violent thoughts, which is pretty rare in reality.

There are many forums for political discussions. Politics are not my interest on TDB and I do not want politics at all on this site IMO

 

also IMO politics are for bottom feeders my life is way above agenda pre conceived thought control and the rest that goes along with it.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Wu Ming Jen

[silent thunder]

7 minutes ago, manitou said:

I despair getting rid of anybody, as we are all the same entity.  But as to answers to the problem, I have none.

In theory I am with Manitou.  100/100.  I have the unshakable, palpable sense that we are all (the entire cosmos, not just humans) one fluid unified process.

 

Yet in practice, I find that there must now be consequences and decisive responses for certain processes, even if I understand they are a part of my overall unified self, my sense of self dictates that certain aspects be excised for the health of the overall organism.

12 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

From my perspective its not political discussion that needs to go, so much as toxic abusive members. 

 

21 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

In the movie 127 Hours, mountaineer Aron Ralston cuts off his arm to free himself from beneath a boulder that trapped him in a remote slot canyon in Utah. 

I recall reading his account when it was published.  It resounded through my awareness so potently as to what we regard as 'our self'.   His arm was expendable.  Compared to losing his life, the arm was released and was no longer 'part of him', so to speak.

 

On a more mundane and less egregious scale...

I do not save my fingernail clippings as they have no intrinsic value.

I usually do not save stray hairs, or hair that I shed.  I no longer consider it part of myself in some odd way.

I have never gathered together my shed skin to save... even though it was part of me.

 

What is part of me, and what is not?  Is a fluid ever shifting process... never a thing.

 

We are all verbs.  Any longer, I don't perceive nouns, or things... but processes.

 

In my current process, it is much as it was for Aron... a position of relative health of the organism, versus keeping all of it intact as it currently expresses itself.

 

Certain levels of toxicity will bring down not just the organism, but blanc the entire ecosystem if left unchecked.

 

Some aspects that i acknowledge as part of me, i also acknowledge as untenable for the health of the whole and thus, must be brought to a shift, and this action is not only beneficial, but a natural response to conditions as they are...

 

 

[liminal_luke]

This latest Daobums shakeup has taught me something about myself -- I´m not very good at disposing of bullshit.  Lots of Bums are better at this task than I.  They don´t fool around.  They know how to work a shovel.  They don´t worry so much about how the bullshit feels as they toss it in the garbage.

 

My own style is not nearly so decisive.  I stand there looking at the bullshit, wondering if it really has to go.  I think to myself that perhaps the bullshit has redeeming qualities.  I fret about the bullshit´s right to Free Speach.  

 

According to the five element theory of Chinese medicine, it´s the element of Metal that allows us to wield a mighty sword and cut away that which no longer serves.  There´s a time and place for the sword and I salute those who are willing to use it.  Even if personally all this cutting makes me a little squeamish.  Thank you for your service.  

 

    

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by liminal_luke

[Rocky Lionmouth]

 

So... yeah, of course it is the actual owner and supplier of this FREE service of a Dao/spiritual board drawing a boundary and asking everyone who isn’t willing to play nice to leave who is childish, not those who have outstayed their welcome and know this for a fact but still argue the abstract principle of having their way unconditionally because rights, free speech and yada yada.

 

Do you guys also crash weddings and claim it’s a free country when the newlyweds tell you ”please leave, you’re not invited.”? I bet my nose you do, after reading this.

Do you argue semantical rethoric of impartiality when something you don’t like gets kindly asked to leave before being escorted off the premises? I just dont think so.

 

It’s not at all infuriating to read page after page of ”uh, excuse me GOD, stop dictating stuff, i feel denied my right to live if i cant be on here against your wishes to blab and rant and bully. Aint this heaven? Well then let me bully people in the name of free speech, Jesus man, stop being butthurt God. Amen.”

 

Lord Guan Gong help me, this is pitiful to watch.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Here´s something you might not know about me: I´m addicted to political drama.  For years now I´ve been saying that the forum should eschew talk of controversial social issues altogether and return to it´s roots as a place to discuss Daoism and other spiritual pursuits.  I still stand by this opinion.  At the same time, I get a kick out of the drama of Off Grid.  It´s exciting.  Bad for me but exciting.

 

So imagine my alarm when Sean came along and actually shut down Trump Talk.  Where would I get my fix?  I need not have worried.  Now we have the "No more right-wing bullshit" thread and the fighting here is every bit as good.  Better than Netflix anyway.  

 

 

 

 

Do  YOU  want a fight    ? 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In the movie 127 Hours, mountaineer Aron Ralston cuts off his arm to free himself from beneath a boulder that trapped him in a remote slot canyon in Utah.  It´s a horrifying flick.  This amputation reminds me of my own suggestion that we cut political discussion out of the board.  It would be a radical move, not to be undertaken lightly, because you´re right that spirituality and politics are inseparable: they are part and parcel of the same human body.  

 

Ideally, we could discuss anything here.  To put up a fence and say this-subject-no would only diminish us.  And yet I despair of ever being able to talk about politics in a respectful way.  I don´t think we can do it.  I´ve gotten to the point where I´m willing to cut off my arm.

 

 

 

Hmmmm  ....   and if    Aron  had not cut off his arm   ?

 

What would have happened ?

[wandelaar]

My fear is coming true. With the expulsion of the right wing Bums the focus has not returned to Taoism and spirituality but has swung the other way to left wing apologetics. The problem here isn't with right or left wing Bums: the basic problem lies in the fixation on political issues and the addiction to ideological battles about who is right or wrong. Such discussions seldom if ever result in people changing their opinion, and thus they don't help in creating a better world (from whatever perspective). Yes - I hear the protests rising: But we can't let the right wing bullshitters have their way! No indeed we can't, but we will not stop them by preaching, shouting, or debating either. It is my impression that people who turn to Trump do so in large measure exactly because they are sick and tired of being criticized and preached to by the radical left. So we are achieving the exact opposite of what we want.

[OldDog]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

... that people turn [to the right] do so in large measure exactly because they are sick and tired of being criticized and preached to by the radical left.

 

This is something that is important to understand. Certainly, the Bum community, already familiar with the notions of yin-yang and reversion, can easily see the reactionary response inherent in extreme rhetoric. The strength of reaction being in some sense proportional to the action. This is why restraint is called for. Unless, of course, the intent is not to reason over issues but rather have a good fight.

[sean]

14 hours ago, wandelaar said:

My fear is coming true. With the expulsion of the right wing Bums the focus has not returned to Taoism and spirituality but has swung the other way to left wing apologetics.

 

It's been less than one week. There's now a handful of topics not entirely dominated by far-right brigades.

 

Quote

The problem here isn't with right or left wing Bums: the basic problem lies in the fixation on political issues and the addiction to ideological battles about who is right or wrong.

 

I disagree. Leftist maps desperately need to continue evolving. But I think right-wing political philosophy is generally fundamentally regressive and wrong, ideologically, and that the solution isn't a watered down compromise.

 

I don't believe being bipartisan is somehow "more Daoist" or "more spiritual". I find it "New Agey" at best, and often a form of incredibly oblivious spiritual bypassing.

 

Quote

Such discussions seldom if ever result in people changing their opinion, and thus they don't help in creating a better world (from whatever perspective). Yes - I hear the protests rising: But we can't let the right wing bullshitters have their way! No indeed we can't, but we will not stop them by preaching, shouting, or debating either.

 

This isn't a political 101 education forum.

 

The solution I've chosen is to ask committed right-wingers to leave and ban when they're unwilling to halt their incessant antisocial rhetoric.

 

The primary intention of this forum is not to "stop the right wing", convert them or "save" them. (Not to say that's not a noble cause. Though, in my experience, I think it's much better attempted offline.)
 

Quote

It is my impression that people who turn to Trump do so in large measure exactly because they are sick and tired of being criticized and preached to by the radical left. So we are achieving the exact opposite of what we want.

But what passes for "radical left" by Trump supporters, thanks to decades of state media propaganda, is actually center-right messaging from neoliberal corporatists, e.g. Obama, Hillary. (Who, by the way, I do think talk down to Trump supporters without offering any actual leftist solutions.)

 

So I don't believe the way forward is further compromising and watering down coherent leftist solutions to widespread inequality, human suffering and death.

 

Ironically I've found that when talking to Trump supporters in person, policy positions universally considered waay too far-left resonate more strongly than shitty centrist talking points, e.g. end all exorbitant foreign wars, take care of our citizens (and vets!) by giving everyone free healthcare — including high quality mental healthcare, free college, 90-100% tax on personal income over "n" million, sovereign wealth funds, job guarantee, etc.

 

"If it's not accessible to the poor, then it's neither revolutionary nor is it radical."

 

Sean