No more right-wing bullshit.

[wandelaar]

37 minutes ago, ralis said:

One of the most egregious problems on the right wing Trump threads was referencing to 4chan, 8chan, as well as QAnon. There were two members that referred to the above quite often. Given recent developments, most everyone here should understand the ramifications of allowing hate groups to infiltrate this site and the online community, in general. 

 

Not to start another dispute but to make my own position clear, I think that banning hate groups (or hate speech) in general would have been a better option than only kicking out right wing hate groups. (As it happened a lot of decent right wingers also left this site.) There are also hate groups on the left, and there are religious hate groups. But as I said before I am not the owner of this site and I agree that something had to be done. We will see how it works out.

Edited August 6, 2019 by wandelaar

[liminal_luke]

49 minutes ago, sean said:

Not to worry, this forum will always remain nonsectarian.

 

Personally, I deeply enjoy teachings across religious traditions, including Christianity and Islam. 🥰

 

Sean

 

 

Right-wing ideologues out; Rumi in.  What is this forum coming to?

[OldDog]

25 minutes ago, C T said:

Clarification please.

 

I know, it almost sounds contradictory ... probably my lack of being able to express the idea clearly.

 

Daoism, if it is to spread ... grow ... will have to do so in places where there are people influenced by other belief systems. For cultural reasons, there are no tabla rasas, for all practical purposes. So, in that sense Daoism will have to compete on its own.

 

But Daoism, as I have been exposed to it, does not seek to deny or overturn any other belief system. Daoism simply is a set of observations about the way things are. It presents notions about existence and change. It simply puts these ideas out there to be accepted or not. I don't see Daoism as putting itself in opposition to anything.

 

Of course, you understand , I approach Daoism from a more philosophical point of view. But I was raised Christian. If I have to take an exclusionary point of view ... Christianity vs Daoism ... then I end up in a dialectical struggle and am not really open to a new ideas. The argument becomes the point. (Not unlike what has happened in TDB)  So, I defer any such temptation. Besides, if it is the case, as I believe, that there is one unified existence and that all belief system derive from it, then eventually all will be reconciled. 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by OldDog
grammer

[flowing hands]

2 hours ago, Walker said:

 

I don't think that is a very good idea at all. The logic is skewed, too. People of any and all religions and no religion at all can be "genuinely interested in Daoism." I am aware of your aversion to people who blend Christian and Daoist ideas and practice, but I'm afraid that sort of thing has been going on since the days of the Silk Road and will certainly continue unabated for as long as Christianity and Daoism both exist... probably to many people's benefit, too.

 

Yes the great melting pot of misunderstanding.

 

59 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

The Tao Te Ching clearly states your point...

 

Chapter 27

 

A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.
A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is.

Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light.

What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.

 

 

 

 

Shame you haven't quoted a good or accurate translation.

 

 

35 minutes ago, sean said:

Not to worry, this forum will always remain nonsectarian.

 

Personally, I deeply enjoy teachings across religious traditions, including Christianity and Islam. 🥰

 

Sean

 

 

Then it will go back to the same old mish-mash, which degenerates due to human nature, to the the same level it has become (it really can't get much lower). For Daoist practitioners as myself the forum, as stated, has come to an end. It is not Daoist but simply the blind leading the blind, with the usual suspects, unqualified and untrained putting their invented taint on teachings, misleading themselves and others. So like in Animal Farm when the animals looked at the pigs and the humans they could see no difference. So when we look from one belief to another it has been smudge so badly we can't distinguish between one or the other, for they had been so corrupted.

 

I might add that other religious forums will not allow others who believe in something else to post on their forums; I know I have tried. You might as well change the name of the forum to represent what it stands for; simply a spiritual forum that includes Daoism in one section. The Dao Bums is a misleading title.  

 

Its your site, you must do with it as you will, but you won't see me smudging my traditional teachings with books written by men for men based on a load of lies! Women have been treated so badly by our two major religions I am surprised that you can allow them to be discussed on here, seeing that you uphold all other states of the human condition?!

[sean]

I think The Dao Bums is a pretty accurate title. 😆 We've always been rather ragtag hobos and don't take ourselves too seriously.

 

I remember my (now departed 😢) teacher Liu Ming once telling me that — unlike e.g. Christian faith where, say, merely reading the Bible and believing in Jesus is often enough to self-identify as Christian, historically the only people who would have said "I'm a Daoist" would have been bona fide Daoist priests who studied exclusively under a lineaged teacher, full time for many years in the work-equivalent of earning at least one medical degree. So I suspect most of us are probably rather doomed to mishmash Daoism from a canonical perspective.

 

Sean

 

[flowing hands]

2 minutes ago, sean said:

I think The Dao Bums is a pretty accurate title. We've always been rather ragtag and don't take ourselves too seriously. 😆

 

I remember my teacher Liu Ming once telling me that — unlike e.g. Christian faith where, say, merely reading the Bible and believing in Jesus is often enough to self-identify as Christian, historically the only people who would have said "I'm a Daoist" would have been bona fide Daoist priests who studied exclusively under a lineaged teacher, full time for many years in the work-equivalent of earning at least one medical degree. So I suspect most of us are probably rather doomed to mishmash Daoism from a canonical perspective.

 

Sean

 

 

The trouble is that in most temples they don't teach the DDJ or study Chuang Tzu etc, they simply follow alot of rituals or become shamans as myself and learn Daoist practices from Immortals. The problem remains with western people who take on the teachings and practices of a belief system like Daoism is there are really not many proper Daoists to learn from. So this is where  a book full of incredible teachings, becomes a dry old book of philosophy, because its totally misunderstood. This is what needs to change. To identify as a Daoist, people need to be brought up in a Daoist family, where the teachings of Dao are the binding principles or as you say follow a Daoist master for many years. The western world has been swamped by Christianity and the Bible and it is very aggressive in its conversion of others, either peacefully or violently. Daoist are not like this and do not force others to believe in what they believe. I have helped many people who are of other faiths, but I think that if people want to learn something right and pure of corruption, then a site must solely deal with the belief system that it is intended for. Otherwise we get a whole chasm of people who think they are experts in Buddhism, (Buddha of course never wrote a single word) Daoism, Christianity etc. etc. and so we see inane comments by many on this site purely from mish-mash and ego.

 

My last few pennies

[ilumairen]

 

29 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

For Daoist practitioners as myself the forum, as stated, has come to an end. It is not Daoist but simply the blind leading the blind, with the usual suspects, unqualified and untrained putting their invented taint on teachings, misleading themselves and others.

 

 

Perhaps this is where some of the confusion lies. The only leaders here are those who keep us from proverbially hitting each other overly harshly upside the head with our respective texts of choice. 

 

[OldDog]

The value in being a Daoist is not in having read Laozi any more than having read the bible makes one a Christian.  It is in the application and practice of the principles that is significant.

 

Christianity did not spread because of the bible. It spread because, in its time, people found value in the application and practice of the principles expounded by Jesus. And it continues to do so ... Although the principles may have shifted some over the millennia.  And so it will be with Taoism. Those who find value in Daoist principles won't be denied that value. They will find a way to reconcile beliefs.

[ilumairen]

 

48 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

Shame you haven't quoted a good or accurate translation.

 

Such as yours? Hope you don't mind my sharing the link Dawei provided. I rather like your version of the chapter in question. 

 

 

[OldDog]

I am going to indulge in a short rant.

 

I grow weary of being told that because I have not taken instruction from a bonafide tradittion holder, that I can't possibly have a valid understanding. Under those conditions, understanding always seems to be just beyond reach. I am what I am ... and I find value in Laozi, Chuangzi, Leizi and others. Those teachings help me to learn and grow ... and I dont mind sharing what I have understood with others and hearing what others have understood. That's why I came here.

 

Somebody hit me with a bucket of cold water.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by OldDog

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

I am going to indulge in a short rant.

 

I grow weary of being told that because I have not taken instruction from a bonafide tradittion holder, that I can't possibly have a valid understanding. Under those conditions, understanding always seems to be just beyond reach. I am what I am ... and I find value in Laozi, Chuangzi, Leizi and others. Those teachings help me to learn and grow ... and I dont mind sharing what I have understood with others and hearing what others have understood. That's why I came here.

 

Somebody hit me with a bucket of cold water.

 

 

I liked your rant. How about some iced tea instead?

[flowing hands]

14 minutes ago, OldDog said:

The value in being a Daoist is not in having read Laozi any more than having read the bible makes one a Christian.  It is in the application and practice of the principles that is significant.

 

Christianity did not spread because of the bible. It spread because, in its time, people found value in the application and practice of the principles expounded by Jesus. And it continues to do so ... Although the principles may have shifted some over the millennia.  And so it will be with Taoism. Those who find value in Daoist principles won't be denied that value. They will find a way to reconcile beliefs.

 

And where were those principles found?...............The Bible, so are you telling me that when the preacher preached to folk he didn't quote from the Bible? People were also forced to believe. There is a whole terrible history about missionaries and what they did to people to get them to believe in the Bible, lets not go down that route.

[liminal_luke]

36 minutes ago, sean said:

I think The Dao Bums is a pretty accurate title. 😆 We've always been rather ragtag hobos and don't take ourselves too seriously.

 

 

I´m sure there´s a lot to running a forum that I don´t know about, but I think the secret to our success is the name -- Dao Bums.  The title hints at an alchemical formula.  Taken separately, the two words Dao and Bum connote very different states of being.  They are fire and water, yin and yang.  Dao conveys a certain seriousness of intent; Bum an appealing looseness.  What does it mean to combine these two qualities into one?  The answer brings one to the brink of eternity.  

[OldDog]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

How about some iced tea instead?

 

Thanks, I ... needed that!

[flowing hands]

9 minutes ago, OldDog said:

I am going to indulge in a short rant.

 

I grow weary of being told that because I have not taken instruction from a bonafide tradittion holder, that I can't possibly have a valid understanding. Under those conditions, understanding always seems to be just beyond reach. I am what I am ... and I find value in Laozi, Chuangzi, Leizi and others. Those teachings help me to learn and grow ... and I dont mind sharing what I have understood with others and hearing what others have understood. That's why I came here.

 

Somebody hit me with a bucket of cold water.

 

 

 

If you don't have the proper understanding of the text you are simply spreading your own take which becomes lies. Rant all you like, a true understanding can only come from someone who has been exclusively trained. The DDJ is not philosophy, it  is mostly a book of deep self cultivation on many levels that will see those who are wise enough to realize immortality.

 

I find myself hitting my head against a wall!!

[ilumairen]

 

1 minute ago, flowing hands said:

I find myself hitting my head against a wall!!

 

Because you claim authority over one who doesn't accept your authority.. I imagine this would lead to frustration for both parties. 

[OldDog]

2 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

And where were those principles found?...............The Bible

 

C'mon, FH. You're cherry picking.

 

There was not a whole lot of Bible around in the first century ... But Christianity spread anyway.

 

As for a Sunday sermon ... I enjoy a good dose of hell, fire and brimstone as much as anyone. I learned a lot from those sermons. I also found those sermon raised, for me, more questions than they provided answers. But i dont disvalue any of that.

 

And I grew beyond that. At the tender young age of 20, I discovered the DDJ... and it has been my perennial companion since. I am never far from that text. There are about 6 sitting on my bookshelf. I have 4 e-versions on my tablet ... even one from Flowing Hands! And I find value in all of them.

 

 

[manitou]

I love this site because I discovered the DDJ at a yard sale, fell in love with it, and somehow happened on to this site maybe 12 years ago.  I was thrilled that it wasn't just Daoists, because I consider myself All Of It and None Of It.  I was thrilled to find that all traditions seem to meet up in metaphysics, the place where we find the hole in the middle of the donut, and where we can all dwell together.  The place of no-thing-ness. I think turning this back into a Daoist-only site (although it may well have started that way) would eliminate a lot of people; it has evolved into what it is because that's what the site wanted to be.  It's a living thing.  I have learned so much from the Buddhists and Daoists here, and it has furthered my growth immeasurably since finding the site.  What I've seen missing from this site are folks who are really trying to walk their talk.  We do have a handful that obviously do - but we also have a great number that obviously don't.  To me, I think the actual 'practice' is an inner journey, and what's the difference if our paths differ a bit if we end up in the same place and achieve the same understanding?  

[flowing hands]

24 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Because you claim authority over one who doesn't accept your authority.. I imagine this would lead to frustration for both parties. 

 

Nothing to do with authority...understanding.

[OldDog]

12 minutes ago, manitou said:

I discovered the DDJ at a yard sale,

 

Ha!

 

I laughed out loud! Because I found my first DDJ at a university bookstore sale at the end of the school year where they were reducing stock and selling books that weren't moving. It's funny how providence steps in just when you need it.

 

When the student is ready ....

[doc benway]

49 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m sure there´s a lot to running a forum that I don´t know about, but I think the secret to our success is the name -- Dao Bums.  The title hints at an alchemical formula.  Taken separately, the two words Dao and Bum connote very different states of being.  They are fire and water, yin and yang.  Dao conveys a certain seriousness of intent; Bum an appealing looseness.  What does it mean to combine these two qualities into one?  The answer brings one to the brink of eternity.  

I love your way with words...

That said, my reading of the Daoist classics leads me to believe that many sages would today be taken for bums!

 

41 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

If you don't have the proper understanding of the text you are simply spreading your own take which becomes lies. Rant all you like, a true understanding can only come from someone who has been exclusively trained. The DDJ is not philosophy, it  is mostly a book of deep self cultivation on many levels that will see those who are wise enough to realize immortality.

No one has perfect understanding and there is no one interpretation of any masterful work like the DDJ.

We are all working and playing with it in our lives and this is enough.

If someone is driven enough to seek direct instruction, wonderful!

If someone can do no more than read for themselves and work with the concepts in their lives, equally wonderful!

This is a great place to bounce interpretations and ideas off of others, some more knowledgeable and some less.

While you may be convinced that you have perfect and complete knowledge of the subject matter, I invite you to consider that maybe there is more than can be learned and understood with an open heart and mind.

Maybe there is opportunity to help others understand with just a little gentler touch.

 

41 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

I find myself hitting my head against a wall!!

Careful

 

14 minutes ago, manitou said:

I love this site because I discovered the DDJ at a yard sale, fell in love with it, and somehow happened on to this site maybe 12 years ago.  I was thrilled that it wasn't just Daoists, because I consider myself All Of It and None Of It.  I was thrilled to find that all traditions seem to meet up in metaphysics, the place where we find the hole in the middle of the donut, and where we can all dwell together.  The place of no-thing-ness. I think turning this back into a Daoist-only site (although it may well have started that way) would eliminate a lot of people; it has evolved into what it is because that's what the site wanted to be.  It's a living thing.  I have learned so much from the Buddhists and Daoists here, and it has furthered my growth immeasurably since finding the site.  What I've seen missing from this site are folks who are really trying to walk their talk.  We do have a handful that obviously do - but we also have a great number that obviously don't.  To me, I think the actual 'practice' is an inner journey, and what's the difference if our paths differ a bit if we end up in the same place and achieve the same understanding?  

I'm with you 100%. 

It's even OK if we end up in different places and with different understandings.

The fun part is playing and dancing together as we move through this miracle.

[escott]

Let's ask a Taoist priest what they think:

 

As a priest, I believe my religion’s strength lies not in converting millions of new followers, but in respecting diversity.

 

...

 

Picture this: Everyone in China has converted to Taoism. They all wear long ocher robes, nobody eats beef, and state laws are replaced by Taoist scriptures. Temples where Taoist ceremonies take place line the busy streets, and the Daodejing is recited solemnly. There are no more scholars, soldiers, farmers, or any other professions at odds with Taoist philosophy. To me, it sounds like a dystopia.

 

Source:

https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1532/a-taoist-china%3F-not-for-me%2C-thanks

 

[C T]

8 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

 

When the student is ready ....

 

.... the master appears. 

When he is steady,

the master disappears. 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

What?  No Rumi or St. John of the Cross????  

 

?

 

No Mullah Nasruddin   ?

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Keeping the forum strictly Taoist would lead to a fundamentalist and sectarian forum. Not my cup of tea! Besides - who is going to separate the true Taoists from the false? I hope this suggestion of flowing hands will be ignored.

 

 

' No More False Daosim Bullshit ! '

 

 

Spoiler