No more right-wing bullshit.

[ilumairen]

 

4 minutes ago, Spotless said:

No - simply not - partial truth and certainly inarguable partial truth but imagine saying this about Hitler - seriously put it in those terms:

 

Trump became President partly because of dissatisfaction and attraction - but he was fundamentally elected on a pack of vitriol and hate and propaganda coming from he himself, from the Russian government, the religious right, the hate radio specialists, the "say anything you want against Hillary regardless of the truth" haters - his own birther myth about Obama - the anti-science crowd - the anti-women-choice crowd - and a great many organized Christian religions where in many cases the congregation was taught "that a vote for Hilary Clinton was a vote for the Devil".

 

I don't know about all this, perhaps with some in some places the above may be true, but the few people who voted Trump I spoke with about the subject after the election voted for "draining the swamp," and as a smack in the face to the people who held the reigns. They believed themselves to be somewhat revolutionary in voting for someone outside of the political sphere and dynasties of power. 

 

 

[manitou]

11 hours ago, sean said:

 I would just ask that those of us on the fence with where this is all going be patient with your "captain" 😂 There will be some turbulence as I figure out how to even navigate this ship anymore. 🙏❤️

 

 

Oh Captain, my Captain.  Please know that you have our support as you navigate these treacherous waters. 

 

I really appreciate your comment about the left leaners not feeling able to express themselves previously.  That's exactly how I felt; stifled and a bit intimidated.  My PTSD does not allow me to argue - or to even see others arguing.

[manitou]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

 

I don't know about all this, perhaps with some in some places the above may be true, but the few people who voted Trump I spoke with about the subject after the election voted for "draining the swamp," and as a smack in the face to the people who held the reigns. They believed themselves to be somewhat revolutionary in voting for someone outside of the political sphere and dynasties of power. 

 

 

 

 

LOL.  The swamp has been drained.  Now all we're left with is the alligators.  And new ones slithering up each day.

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

I'm good with waking ourselves; I'm not always so sure about smacking others - I'm no Zen master.

 

 

Not all smacking is equal, some smacking is better than others.  Or so my friends tell me

 

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, steve said:

 

"The Republican Party is the most dangerous organisation in human history."

- Noam Chomsky

 

Oh really?  The Nazis, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ghenghis Khan, the Spanish Inquisition ... I could go on.

 

[ilumairen]

8 minutes ago, manitou said:

Illumairen - nice post.  I think the sweet spot (my fellow tennis player!) is found in the realization that Trump is you, Trump is me.  And apparently we elected the leader we deserved.  That, to me, is the most urgent part of this.  That 'we' elected him and it's a direct reflection of the society that we have been become.  An alpha dog leading a pack of angry,  frightened, unaware people.  Trump can't help being what he is any more than we can.    The full extent of his sickness is yet to be known.  (Which has been a quandry for me for several years - can't we just diagnose this guy out of office?  Check first for psychopathy and narcissism?)  It isn't possible for a true narcissist to be able to see things from other people's position - to place themselves in the shoes of another.  How in the world can one be an effective leader with those character traits?

 

(Actually, I know what somebody is going to say.  That 'we' didn't elect him at all, the damned electoral college did).  But there's no denying the man has his followers, and they seem to be stuck on him with superglue. )

 

I'm sorry, I'm not there yet, and unable to call the "just grab them in the p..." man me... 

 

He was however, by the rules of the game, elected, and if people don't want a second term it's time to get some shit together. And I don't think calling people names is going to cover it..

[sean]

15 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I wouldn't compare Trump to Hitler though, but more to authoritarian leaders like Erdogan or Putin. And actually I think more to Erdogan because of his over the top rhetoric, than than to Putin.

 

I agree, I think Trump is more like Erdogan.

 

Good article I read recently by the way: "The Era of People Like You Is Over": How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals.

 

13 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I have seen the term "bothsideism" used several times now, so please explain what exactly it is supposed to mean, and who the accused are...

 

It's the reflexive misapprehension that because two things present as an apparent duality, that the truth must, intuitively be somewhere in the middle. The fallacy is clear in an example like:

 

A: Slavery is good, actually.

B: No, slavery is bad.

 

But it's less obvious when discussing political agendas where one "side", while perhaps correct twice a day like a broken clock happens to be, is actually quite ideologically rotten to the core. I think bothsidesism is particularly rampant in the U.S. where it's deliberately exacerbated by the media to maintain a spectacle for financial gain.

 

13 hours ago, Miffymog said:

>> I find the condescending pearl clutching of committed bothsidesism on the internet funny?

 

But, talking like this to Rene when she made, in my eyes, a very rational statement of the obvious

 

Was very, very poor.

 

I do find bothsidesism kind of funny-sad, but I agree this was poor form. I apologize.

 

In fact, on reflection afterwards I realized — while this was not my conscious intention and I do use the same language with men, the phrase "pearl clutching" has a gendered connotation that might have added an inadvertent, additional layer of acidity. I'll try to do better. 🙇

 

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

But please note, I said action and not reaction. 

 

I've seen alot of righteous anger in my life, and when it's tightly gripped and held it tends towards distortion imo. And yes, suppression distorts as well. So where is the "sweet spot" between these distortions?

 

Beautiful inquiry.

 

Sean

 

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, Spotless said:

From Apex:

 

"From a Buddhist perspective I think it might be helpful to say that anger, fear, uncertainty, dissatisfaction and so on - in any situation - are indispensable aids to vajrayana practice.  By this I mean they give an opportunity for realising emptiness - because those emotions are fundamentally empty.  By saying this I am not saying they don't matter - or that the political situation doesn't matter - I don't want to fall into the nihilist trap of saying 'its all illusion, man'.  But it is very useful to use both good and bad situations for practice.  So when we find a good situation we are happy for the benefit that arises - when we find a bad situation we are 'happy' for the opportunity to realise that what we are experiencing is a flux of energy."

 

This is fine - and both true and difficult work.

 

From Apex:

 

"It must be true to say that whatever arises depends on causes and conditions - and this includes Trump.  If you attack Trump then you are attacking the appearance of Trump - but if you look to the causes and conditions which gave rise to his election and deal with them then he will literally disappear (yes really) since whatever supports him will no longer be there.  This is why I say that people voted for him because of dissatisfaction(s) in their lives - if you like, they were emotionally drawn to him (in sufficient numbers but not a majority) because they had needs.  Needs that were not being met by the alternative narratives being presented about what had happened and what will happen.  Perhaps you could say needs and aspirations - which I would say were born from (looking at the local time frame) chiefly the events since 9/11 when the USA was shocked into action/reaction leading to and through the 2008 financial crisis.  Violent acts have violent results.  Karma.  I think that is why Trumps main bad feature, to me anyway, is instability - he's angry, defensive and personal when he doesn't need to be"

 

No - simply not - partial truth and certainly inarguable partial truth but imagine saying this about Hitler - seriously put it in those terms:

 

Trump became President partly because of dissatisfaction and attraction - but he was fundamentally elected on a pack of vitriol and hate and propaganda coming from he himself, from the Russian government, the religious right, the hate radio specialists, the "say anything you want against Hillary regardless of the truth" haters - his own birther myth about Obama - the anti-science crowd - the anti-women-choice crowd - and a great many organized Christian religions where in many cases the congregation was taught "that a vote for Hilary Clinton was a vote for the Devil". https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-church-bulletin-20161102-story.html.  

 

There was a reason well over half the nation threw up when they discovered the mistake that had taken place - that this mentally ill person was the head of The "United" States of America. 

 

It may come as a surprise to many here but I am not held in this web of hate or vitriol - I do however understand framing and the democrats have had a surprising lacking in the ability to frame an issue - though since Hitler Germany the world has not had a large western nation so under attack from complete and utter lies and propaganda - and the inertia's of complete Insanity.

 

The "Republican Party" is truly insane - and those that are still breathing some portion of reality are leaving or distancing themselves - like Christian's distancing themselves from nearly the entire bible and picking out what they like - and enjoying the momentum of centuries of Inquisitions, torture and mind control/fear/propaganda - its why so many are leaving but so few are stating why.

 

For those from other countries - it may be like hearing about a daughter being raped - it is horrible but not personal. 

When your own daughter is being raped and it is being done while you are held to watch - it is personal - doubly personal.

 

There is nothing about this President and his followers and the machine of hate that it spews that is normal politics - this is indeed nothing of the sort. 

 

In my previous posts I took a picture of what is happening - and put it into words - I was not in a frame of mind of hate - not in a frame of mind to spew - I was not in the inertia's of Democrat's ideology. 

 

 The Nazi Germany tactics - have found real root again - they have become the Way forward in the Republican Party. Repeat lies and with enough repetitions they become real (and simple people become the machines for our greatest tragedies).

 

On a clear day - it is easy to see smoke rising - and it is not opinion to say that the smoke is rising. One does not need to be mad in order to state the perils of a fire spreading to a town just downwind of the fire that is spreading. When trying to summarize in words a fire of hate and lies - it may appear that the person summarizing is lost in the fire - but I assure you I am as cool as a cucumber - and I stand firmly against the machine of "exclusiveness and agenda at all costs" and the nazi machine of the Republican Party.

 

 

 

 

Spotless my dear chap my name is Apech not Apex - but I accept I am the pinnacle of something.

 

Ok your view - I accept that - and maybe from here across the pond it does look a little different.  Maybe Trump is the new Hitler but I ask you to consider that Hitler would not have put children in cages he would have shot them in the head.  But where i do agree is that the US presidential system is (or can be) inherently fascistic - like a series of 4/8 year dictatorships.

 

But I am sticking to my guns - doing my practice, praying for peace and hoping for the best.

[Apech]

By the way if you want to look round the world for a really nasty piece of shit, try Bolsonaro in Brazil.  Sinister and highly unpleasant.

[liminal_luke]

9 minutes ago, sean said:

 

the phrase "pearl clutching" has a gendered connotation

 

 

Not among my crowd.

[sean]

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

>> The Republican Party is the most dangerous organisation in human history

 

Oh really?  The Nazis, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ghenghis Khan, the Spanish Inquisition ... I could go on.

 

The level of planet-destroying power the U.S. now wields adds orders of magnitude to the devastation possible. I think that's part of Chomsky's point there. Also I think the Republican party is the modern pinnacle of sophistication at laundering their agenda into less overtly broadcasted "grand schemes." So the widespread suffering and death that's a direct result of their policies is more insidious.

 

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

By the way if you want to look round the world for a really nasty piece of shit, try Bolsonaro in Brazil.  Sinister and highly unpleasant.

 

💯 Far worse than Trump! 😬

 

Sean

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, sean said:

 

The level of planet-destroying power the U.S. now wields adds orders of magnitude to the devastation possible. I think that's part of Chomsky's point there. Also I think the Republican party is the modern pinnacle of sophistication at laundering their agenda into less overtly broadcasted "grand schemes." So the widespread suffering and death that's a direct result of their policies is more insidious.

 

 

💯 Far worse than Trump! 😬

 

Sean

 

 

The size of the US military is genuinely frightening - and if you have a weapon I guess sooner or later you want to use it - so I concede yes the US military industrial complex is truly scary more scary than anything that has existed before.  I like Tulsi Gabbard on this aspect.  Maybe Sanders/Gabbard would be a good ticket.

[manitou]

(from Steve's post)

 

"The Nazi Germany tactics - have found real root again - they have become the Way forward in the Republican Party. Repeat lies and with enough repetitions they become real (and simple people become the machines for our greatest tragedies)."

 

 

 

Yes, exactly.  I was on a real WW2 bender for a while, studying with fascination.  the thing that really strikes me today are the tone of the rallies - the repetition - the staging.  So much of it is like watching a Hitler Youth rally, which I've seen video of.

 

[wandelaar]

16 minutes ago, sean said:

It's the reflexive misapprehension that because two things present as an apparent duality, that the truth must, intuitively be somewhere in the middle. The fallacy is clear in an example like:

 

A: Slavery is good, actually.

B: No, slavery is bad.

 

But it's less obvious when discussing political agendas where one side, while perhaps being correct twice a day like a broken clock happens to be, is actually quite ideologically rotten to the core. I think bothsidesism is particularly rampant in the U.S. where it's deliberately exacerbated by the media to maintain a spectacle for financial gain.

 

Yes - when used as a kind of mechanical procedure to arrive at the truth, blindly following the middle way is flawed. But then that's not what I proposed. What I protest against is when parties don't even want to consider the sheer possibility that their political opponents could be right about a few points. This leads to the absurdity that one party automatically starts denying that something could possibly be the case just because the other party says that it is. This sort of thing happens more often than one would believe before looking in to it. 

[Spotless]

59 minutes ago, manitou said:

(from Steve's post)

 

"The Nazi Germany tactics - have found real root again - they have become the Way forward in the Republican Party. Repeat lies and with enough repetitions they become real (and simple people become the machines for our greatest tragedies)."

 

 

 

Yes, exactly.  I was on a real WW2 bender for a while, studying with fascination.  the thing that really strikes me today are the tone of the rallies - the repetition - the staging.  So much of it is like watching a Hitler Youth rally, which I've seen video of.

 

The above quote was a re-quote from me/Spotless:

 

"The Nazi Germany tactics - have found real root again - they have become the Way forward in the Republican Party. Repeat lies and with enough repetitions they become real (and simple people become the machines for our greatest tragedies)."

 

[C T]

Im taking a minute here to pause and reflect on the stark difference in the tone of discourse as evidenced in the latter parts of this thread, and throughout the now defunct nightmarish Talk Trump Talk ones. Its clear not everyone's singing Kumbaya here, as some had scoffingly remarked in the recent past. Their cringeworthy reality was obviously skewed. This leaves little doubt in my mind that some of those who were booted out needed that at precisely the right time (for them). Thank goodness for Manjusri's wisdom sword being unsheathed and used in a timely manner. Already, a few of the treasured members of old have made their return, and this augurs well for the site. It may not all be apparent now, but it already feels healthier and lighter, just like after, crass as it may sound, a satisfying detox purge. (i wanted to use "dump"  but couldn't type it except as an after-word). 

[Spotless]

18 hours ago, wandelaar said:

What I protest against is when parties don't even want to consider the sheer possibility that their political opponents could be right about a few points.

This is a great example of a Straw Man argument:

 

It is basically impossible to find any cognizant "normal" human that does not see "a few points" that their political opponents could be right about.

 

Arguing with no-one that exists within "normal" society is a favorite of those that have not done their homework.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Spotless

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

The size of the US military is genuinely frightening - and if you have a weapon I guess sooner or later you want to use it - so I concede yes the US military industrial complex is truly scary more scary than anything that has existed before.  I like Tulsi Gabbard on this aspect.  Maybe Sanders/Gabbard would be a good ticket.

 

Agree on the size & fright issue... that is one of the few things that has bothered me for a long time... and why I first took notice of Tulsi.  I told my wife the other day I wanted to contribute to her campaign.  I think it would be a shame if she drops out too soon.  She has not yet qualified for the next debates.

 

I read an article yesterday how some are talking about her aspirations are not really for the presidency but definitely to do something next.   There were hints that she has defended Biden for maybe VP consideration.  Time will tell. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by dawei

[dawei]

49 minutes ago, C T said:

Im taking a minute here to pause and reflect on the stark difference in the tone of discourse as evidenced in the latter parts of this thread, and throughout the now defunct nightmarish Talk Trump Talk ones. Its clear not everyone's singing Kumbaya here, as some had scoffingly remarked in the recent past. Their cringeworthy reality was obviously skewed. This leaves little doubt in my mind that some of those who were booted out needed that at precisely the right time (for them). Thank goodness for Manjusri's wisdom sword being unsheathed and used in a timely manner. Already, a few of the treasured members of old have made their return, and this augurs well for the site. It may not all be apparent now, but it already feels healthier and lighter, just like after, crass as it may sound, a satisfying detox purge. (i wanted to use "dump"  but couldn't type it except as an after-word). 

 

Only two were booted and for rude comments... although I agree that at least one was more a 'mirroring' issue as someone mentioned.  It reminds me of sports where the second punch is sometimes [unfairly] punished more than the first punch.   At least 5 (likely more) left on protest or given a "you're not welcome here" feeling.  Maybe they'll come back some day.  I never celebrated someone being banned (well, let me try hard enough, maybe I can come up with one), but certainly do like seeing old ones making their return. 

 

I don't sense it as lighter and healthier...  being skewed goes both ways.  It's just a pendulum effect except now the extreme left has no extreme right voice to worry about.   Fewer voices can ensure fewer disagreements for sure.  Maybe that is the healthy part... 

[wandelaar]

I will stop participating in this topic for some time as it is taking up too much of my time and energy. We will see how things develop.

[dwai]

46 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Agree on the size & fright issue... that is one of the few things that has bothered me for a long time... and why I first took notice of Tulsi.  I told my wife the other day I wanted to contribute to her campaign.  I think it would be a shame if she drops out too soon.  She has not yet qualified for the next debates.

 

I read an article yesterday how some are talking about her aspirations are not really for the presidency but definitely to do something next.   There were hints that she has defended Biden for maybe VP consideration.  Time will tell. 

I've supported her. Like I supported Bernie last time. I don't have any hopes of her getting the ticket...

[C T]

48 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Only two were booted and for rude comments... although I agree that at least one was more a 'mirroring' issue as someone mentioned.  It reminds me of sports where the second punch is sometimes [unfairly] punished more than the first punch.   At least 5 (likely more) left on protest or given a "you're not welcome here" feeling.  Maybe they'll come back some day.  I never celebrated someone being banned (well, let me try hard enough, maybe I can come up with one), but certainly do like seeing old ones making their return. 

 

I don't sense it as lighter and healthier...  being skewed goes both ways.  It's just a pendulum effect except now the extreme left has no extreme right voice to worry about.   Fewer voices can ensure fewer disagreements for sure.  Maybe that is the healthy part... 

 

My point meant to highlight healthy debate based off respect of individual views more than anything else, Dawei. As you may have noticed, not everyone's on the same page with whats being discussed here, but definitely one notes a stark abstinence of much of the unpleasant language frequently employed by those who're no longer active (in protest, you said?) + the 2 who thankfully got dislodged. 

 

The above, by the way, wasn't a celebratory note, but Im glad all the same, but not for the slightly skewed reason you stated above regarding the exit of voices echoing extreme right sentiments.

 

Did you really not notice the chronic and incessant need from "those on that side" to gang up and attempt to overwhelm every single post perceived as criticism of the trump? As if that wasn't satisfaction enough, showing little regard for manners, they'd resort to ridicule, belittlement, rudeness and personal attack even. This is all so childish and totally unnecessary, and, forgive me for saying this again, but you & other mods could have done more to lead the discussions in such a way as to ensure a certain amount of fairness was maintained for both sides, something that wasn't obvious at all, in fact. The issue actually goes some way over that of the left/right polarity - it was downright concerted attempts to disempower others who try to put in a word to highlight the weaknesses of this presidency. These intermittent objections to trumpism were often met with jeers and boos. It was a dangerous development for TDB to have had to encounter, and thats why I mentioned the timeliness factor when intervention took effect. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by C T

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

The size of the US military is genuinely frightening - and if you have a weapon I guess sooner or later you want to use it - so I concede yes the US military industrial complex is truly scary more scary than anything that has existed before. 

 

That combined with the refusal to acknowledge or address climate change which could spell human extinction. I think those are Chomsky’s points.

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

 

My point meant to highlight healthy debate based off respect of individual views more than anything else, Dawei. As you may have noticed, not everyone's on the same page with whats being discussed here, but definitely one notes a stark abstinence of much of the unpleasant language frequently employed by those who're no longer active (in protest, you said?) + the 2 who thankfully got dislodged. 

 

The above, by the way, wasn't a celebratory note, but Im glad all the same, but not for the slightly skewed reason you stated above regarding the exit of voices echoing extreme right sentiments.

 

Did you really not notice the chronic and incessant need from "those on that side" to gang up and attempt to overwhelm every single post perceived as criticism of the trump? As if that wasn't satisfaction enough, showing little regard for manners, they'd resort to ridicule, belittlement, rudeness and personal attack even. This is all so childish and totally unnecessary, and, forgive me for saying this again, but you & other mods could have done more to lead the discussions in such a way as to ensure a certain amount of fairness was maintained for both sides, something that wasn't obvious at all, in fact. The issue actually goes some way over that of the left/right polarity - it was downright concerted attempts to disempower others who try to put in a word to highlight the weaknesses of this presidency. These intermittent objections to trumpism were often met with jeers and boos. It was a dangerous development for TDB to have had to encounter, and thats why I mentioned the timeliness factor when intervention took effect. 

 

The staff noted the pendulum swing from left cursing and full on takedown of POTUS to right domination.  We had shut down a few threads and banned one conspiracy story.  Staff were talking about talking with the board/members and I had ok'ed one of the staff to start that... but it didn't happen in time.

 

What you may not see is that much of what you mention might of been in reaction (to borrow from Ilum).  I think we once again see the pendulum in reaction.  

 

So while we could of done some things earlier, not sure why folks can't just not go to a thread if they feel it is uncomfortable.  Self-moderation did lose on this note.  maybe we under-estimated those claiming spirituality (?) 

[C T]

3 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

The staff noted the pendulum swing from left cursing and full on takedown of POTUS to right domination.  We had shut down a few threads and banned one conspiracy story.  Staff were talking about talking with the board/members and I had ok'ed one of the staff to start that... but it didn't happen in time.

 

What you may not see is that much of what you mention might of been in reaction (to borrow from Ilum).  I think we once again see the pendulum in reaction.  

 

So while we could of done some things earlier, not sure why folks can't just not go to a thread if they feel it is uncomfortable.  Self-moderation did lose on this note.  maybe we under-estimated those claiming spirituality (?) 

 

There's a noticeable lack of conviction somewhere in those words, my friend. The reason for saying this is pretty obvious - those 2 threads in question were left to fester for a loooong time. I agree on the point about self-moderation, but that wasn't seen to have been encouraged by those who were responsible for oversight. Im not blaming you guys as I realise the immense challenges that lay in store on a daily basis, not to mention the fact that you were all volunteers who signed on to a mostly thankless task, but thats quite besides the point. 

 

Anyway, I think this is getting to be like beating a dead horse, so best let it lie. Spiritual aspirations have little to do with having common courtesy, something that is sort of an unwritten rule for those who value a bit of self-respect. 

 

Thanks all the same for all you & your team have done over the years to facilitate the running of TDB. 

This wasn't a fault-finding attempt on my part, so please do not misunderstand.