No more right-wing bullshit.

[manitou]

what a good dog

[OldDog]

Down where I come from there an expression...

 

You ain't justa woofin' !

 

... that seems to apply.

[sean]

20 hours ago, Chang said:

... beneath the iron hoof of Sean ...

 

While we're pouring out splashes of plum wine for Chang, I'll admit I now wish I actually do have iron hooves. Sounds pretty metal. 🤘

 

 

Sean

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

It is metal! Di goat of saturn tells me!

 

@flowing hands, i get it. Good to see things change, thanks for the reply.

[liminal_luke]

 

 

I was trying to find Aretha Franklin´s Chain of Fools which I´d misremembered as "Chang of Fools."  Ran into this delightful Thai children´s song.  No disrespect intended.

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by liminal_luke

[C T]

A haiku stalwart departs. 

Farewell... It was good while it lasted. 

There must be more than 575 reasons you could have stayed

Instead, you left because of one. 

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

37 minutes ago, C T said:

A haiku stalwart departs. 

Farewell... It was good while it lasted. 

There must be more than 575 reasons you could have stayed

Instead, you left because of one. 

 

 

 

 

 

Reminded me of a true story from history.  Peter the Great was inspecting the implementation of his rulings by touring various cities and getting into every detail personally.  It was, among other things, ordered that his arrival must always be officially announced and greeted by firing the city's cannons.  So, he comes to this one city (forget which) and he's greeted in a due ceremony but the cannons are silent.  Furious, he summons the governor. 

"Why didn't the cannons fire, you insubordinate rascal?"

"Your majesty, there's exactly 16 reasons why."

"Oh yeah?  And what are they?"

"Number one: we have no gunpowder..."

Peter interrupted the governor and waved a dismissive hand.

"There's no need to go into the other 15.  I'm satisfied in my inquiry."  

   

[Zork]

On 8/14/2019 at 3:26 AM, ralis said:

I highly recommend this Netflix series. The goal of “The Family” is to convert world leaders to right-wing Christianity. 

 

https://www.netflix.com/title/80063867?s=i&trkid=13641907

They aren't christian by any stretch. A right-wing cult could be more to the point.

If these guys are running the US, you are in big trouble.

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Zork said:

They aren't christian by any stretch. A right-wing cult could be more to the point.

If these guys are running the US, you are in big trouble.

 

They may not be christian but they fly the banner, twist the message, and use it as a rallying cry quite effectively.

Religion is used and abused like this continuously, as is every other excuse to manipulate each other for power.

Yes, they are running the US as evidenced by our denial of climate change, increasing intolerance to LGBTQ issues, racism, increasing wealth inequality, unaffordable health care, insane prescription prices, endless military engagement, crimes against humanity on our southern border, the list goes on... we are in big trouble.

This is precisely why some of us are so reactive to the insidious and offensive right wing narrative recently excised from this forum.

 

 

[gendao]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

They may not be christian but they fly the banner, twist the message, and use it as a rallying cry quite effectively.

Religion is used and abused like this continuously, as is every other excuse to manipulate each other for power.

Yes, they are running the US as evidenced by our denial of climate change, increasing intolerance to LGBTQ issues, racism, increasing wealth inequality, unaffordable health care, insane prescription prices, endless military engagement, crimes against humanity on our southern border, the list goes on... we are in big trouble.

This is precisely why some of us are so reactive to the insidious and offensive right wing narrative recently excised from this forum.

Quote

Story of Jesus Christ was 'fabricated to pacify the poor', claims controversial Biblical scholar
Christianity was a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of a the Roman Empire, claims scholar

A controversial American biblical scholar is set to make his first appearance in London next week to present a discovery that he claims proves the story of Jesus Christ was invented as a system of mind control to enslave the poor.

Joseph Atwill, who is the author of a book entitled 'Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus', asserts that Christianity did not begin as a religion, but was actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire.

At the 'Covert Messiah' conference, to be held at the Conway Hall in Holborn a week on Saturday, Mr Atwill will present his theory that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they entirely fabricated the story of Jesus Christ.

Outlining his ideas in a blog posting on his website Mr Atwill writes: "Christianity may be considered a religion, but it was actually developed and used as a system of mind control to produce slaves that believed God decreed their slavery."
Mr Atwill says that acts of insurrection by Jewish sects, who were awaiting the arrival of a so-called 'warrior Messiah' in Palestine, were a perpetual problem for the Roman Empire and that after the Empire had exhausted all traditional means of dealing with the problem they resorted to psychological warfare. 
"They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system," Atwill told PRWeb.com

"That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented.

"Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

Mr Atwill continues: "Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history.

To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."

Elsewhere, Mr Atwill also writes: “In fact he [Jesus] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Atwill says he made his discovery when while studying the New Testament alongside the 'War of the Jews' by Josephus - the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea.

Mr Atwill claims that he began to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts.

"What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus," Atwill claims.

"This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern", he continues.

"The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

Richard Dawkins, the English evolutionary biologist and author, well known for his anti-religion views, yesterday tweeted a link to the press release advertising the event in London.

However, he later tweeted: "RT doesn't imply endorsement. I'm not qualified to judge Atwill's thesis. Just thought it might be worth a look."

Mr Atwill's theory is simply one of a number of what are known as Bible conspiracy theories.

These theories commonly include the suggestion that secret societies, mystery schools and other religions used the fictional story of Christ to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion.

 

[gendao]

On 8/13/2019 at 3:57 PM, flowing hands said:

Actually,

some time past I had said to Dawei I was getting fed up with the general tone of the site. My thread about climate change is still going on, I think on its 39th page and it was hijacked by the right wingers/Trumpsters who denied that it even existed. In the end I pulled out of the thread.

Yea, it's a tiny minority fighting against the colonialist majority who just doesn't give a f*** about Nature!

For example, another day...yet more Christian colonialists busy rubber-stamping the destruction of vestigial native lands...

Aborigines vs Colonialist "Developers" (Destroyers) (Mayor Linda Langerhans, City Manager Kent Myers, & Council Members Charlie Kiehne, Gary Neffendorf, & Bobby Watson) - Round #2349723492343242342342342334!

On 8/13/2019 at 7:12 PM, sean said:

Ciao, grandpa internet tough guy. Good luck with your inert memes, completely full diaper and everyone laughing at you whenever you leave a room.

 

Sean

I liked this for Sean's comedic gongfu, lol...not the fact that Chang was leaving (I embrace all dialogue).

Edited August 15, 2019 by gendao

[Zork]

4 hours ago, steve said:

Yes, they are running the US as evidenced by our denial of climate change, increasing intolerance to LGBTQ issues, racism, increasing wealth inequality, unaffordable health care, insane prescription prices, endless military engagement, crimes against humanity on our southern border, the list goes on... we are in big trouble.

My problem isn't that they are running the US but their willingness to export their ideologies elsewhere.

The world doesn't need saviors. At least not of this kind.

4 hours ago, steve said:

They may not be christian but they fly the banner, twist the message, and use it as a rallying cry quite effectively.

Not true. If that is the case, whoever claims to be something or act in the name of someone is automatically telling the truth or has no other motives to act like that. We both know this isn't true at all.

 

4 hours ago, steve said:

Religion is used and abused like this continuously, as is every other excuse to manipulate each other for power.

  Organised religion? Sure. Religion in general? Depends.

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, Zork said:

My problem isn't that they are running the US but their willingness to export their ideologies elsewhere.

That's only because you don't live here...

 

5 hours ago, Zork said:

The world doesn't need saviors. At least not of this kind.

What?! 

I know what the world needs....

 

TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE!

Spoiler

 

 

5 hours ago, Zork said:

Not true. If that is the case, whoever claims to be something or act in the name of someone is automatically telling the truth or has no other motives to act like that. We both know this isn't true at all.

It is functionally true.

Christianity in the US is synonymous with right wing politics.

It's eerily similar to the radical manipulation and perversion of Islam.

 

Is it legitimate? No

Is it an effective method to control minds, votes, and money? You bet your ass!

 

5 hours ago, Zork said:

Organised religion? Sure. Religion in general? Depends.

Agreed

[Jeff]

57 minutes ago, steve said:

 

It is functionally true.

Christianity in the US is synonymous with right wing politics.

It's eerily similar to the radical manipulation and perversion of Islam.

 

Is it legitimate? No

 

 

Where in the US do you live?  Because I can say in the Midwest it is totally the opposite.  Grew up Christian in Minnesota, and everyone has more Scandinavian socialist like views.  Same in Chicago, and Illinois in general. I can say that all of the pastors that I know are completely left leaning socialist, that is pretty much all they preach about. I know personally 3 catholic priests, and they are all the socialist in their views too. 

[doc benway]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Where in the US do you live?  Because I can say in the Midwest it is totally the opposite.  Grew up Christian in Minnesota, and everyone has more Scandinavian socialist like views.  Same in Chicago, and Illinois in general. I can say that all of the pastors that I know are completely left leaning socialist, that is pretty much all they preach about. I know personally 3 catholic priests, and they are all the socialist in their views too. 

 

I'm talking at a policy level. 

Individuals have little influence on policy.

[manitou]

Eastern Ohio, western Pennsylvania, W. Virginia - synonymous with right wing politics for sure.

[Zork]

5 hours ago, steve said:

That's only because you don't live here...

Hmm it would be fair to say that each country has it's own set of problems and i can't be asked to handle your problems on top of mine just because it might spread here.

 

5 hours ago, steve said:

It is functionally true.

Christianity in the US is synonymous with right wing politics.

It's eerily similar to the radical manipulation and perversion of Islam.

 

Is it legitimate? No

Is it an effective method to control minds, votes, and money? You bet your ass!

Christianity is a conservative religion but being synonymous with right wing politics is too much. Maybe you mean that it is easier to fish for votes from the christian pool than any other religious group.

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Zork said:

Hmm it would be fair to say that each country has it's own set of problems and i can't be asked to handle your problems on top of mine just because it might spread here.

Maybe no one can ask that of you, and I certainly would not.

Nevertheless, it's spread already - no?

 

3 hours ago, Zork said:

 

Christianity is a conservative religion but being synonymous with right wing politics is too much. Maybe you mean that it is easier to fish for votes from the christian pool than any other religious group.

You're probably correct.

It seems to me that this extreme right wing movement has managed to associate itself with "Christian" values in this country.

This has been an effective way to achieve legitimacy and big bucks.

Then again, I could be completely mistaken.

I'm mostly disengaged from politics.

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

Maybe no one can ask that of you, and I certainly would not.

Nevertheless, it's spread already - no?

 

You're probably correct.

It seems to me that this extreme right wing movement has managed to associate itself with "Christian" values in this country.

This has been an effective way to achieve legitimacy and big bucks.

Then again, I could be completely mistaken.

I'm mostly disengaged from politics.

Quote

Christian socialism[edit]

The rise of Non-Conformist religions, in particular Methodism, played a large role in the development of trade unions and of British socialism. The influence of the radical chapels was strongly felt among some industrial workers, especially miners and those in the north of England and Wales.

The first group calling itself Christian Socialists formed in 1848 under the leadership of Frederick Denison Maurice. Its membership mainly consisted of Chartists (see below). The group became dormant after only six years, but there was a considerable revival of Christian socialism in the 1880s, and a number of groups sprang up. Ultimately, Christian socialists dominated the leadership of the Independent Labour Party, including James Keir Hardie.

 

 

from Wiki.

 

I think that Christian values of love your neighbour, sermon on the mount, feed my sheep - led directly to the development of socialism or at least socialist values.  May be different in the US but I think this is because conservatives manipulated Christianity to produce a very right-wing view point especially during the Cold War.  So we have to be careful about Christianity = right-wing.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

31 minutes ago, Apech said:

I think that Christian values of love your neighbour, sermon on the mount, feed my sheep - led directly to the development of socialism or at least socialist values.  May be different in the US but I think this is because conservatives manipulated Christianity to produce a very right-wing view point especially during the Cold War.  So we have to be careful about Christianity = right-wing.

 

Considering John the Baptist and the Essenes with their communal living, this is true historically that they had values parallel to our views we might idealize as socialist. 

 

How the Religious Right failed to understand the fundamental message of Jesus of unconditional love, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness is still baffling to many devotees of the faith. 

 

Gandhi once was perhaps apocryphally attributed to say something along the lines of "I like Christianity, but I am not a fan of Christians" and a parallel statement was also said by Jack Kornfield to Duncan Trussell that the teachings of the Buddha ask people to become Buddhas, not Buddhists. 

 

When a teaching becomes a doctrine, the doctrine becomes susceptible to interpretation, and interpretation becomes subject to revision, and revision becomes preface to ideology, and ideology becomes a new teaching, completely divorced from the original teaching. 

[Earl Grey]

 

[OldDog]

12 hours ago, steve said:

Christianity in the US is synonymous with right wing politics.

 

This is a very delicate subject. On the surface Steve's assertion is shocking, outrageous ... And probably gets a lot of people's backs up. But I think it bears a little deeper discussion.

 

It is telling that the statement is qualified by ... in the US.  I would expect that Chistians outside of US might take exception to the assertion. But I think there is a bit of truth in the assertion. Let me suggest a way to think about this.

 

The current situation in the US began its rise in the early 1980s with the political coalescing of the Moral Majority. Christian communities had fairly strong sense of direction surrounding issues of morality ... public prayer, abortion, sexuality. This sense of Christian morality had served the country relatively well in terms of social behavioral guidelines and order. In many ways it was the US morality.

 

So, what happened? Some very astute politicians realized that Christians represented a voting block that was already consolidated around a set of values. They needed no convincing. All that was necessary was that a political party, regardless of its agenda, adopt these moral values, at least superficially, and a large block of voters would swing their way.

 

Ever since then, that political party has only had to agitate the moral block ... by way of threatening their core values ... in order to gain support each political cycle ... And their real agenda can ride the wave. So, every election cycle, the same "issues" arise ... prayer, religious imagery in public places, abortion, sexuality (now in the form of LGBT issues). Align these issues with American core values ... mom, Apple pie and the American flag ... And you have a very potent mixture indeed.

 

In this way, Christian moral authority has been usurped. As long as the political party is able to identify with morality ... It has the high ground. This is because it is sacreligious to question an established religion. This is a very powerful position.

 

Seen from this vantage point ... Steve's assertion makes sense. But where to place the fault. Is it Chistians that are at fault ... not from the point of view of a life guiding morality ... perhaps, though, by allowing themselves to be manipulated. Generally, as a country we (the US) share the blame for having allowed this situation to go unchallenged.  And certainly, there are those master manipulators,  who saw the potential and seized upon it.

 

Small wonder our founding fathers took steps to try and keep religion and governing separate. They just didn't figure on political parties being so ... Machiavellian. 

 

Just sayin.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by OldDog
autocorrect

[liminal_luke]

14 hours ago, steve said:

 

Christianity in the US is synonymous with right wing politics.

 

This has been my experience 100%.  Which isn´t to say that there aren´t many Christian individuals who veer from the right-wing path.  A good friend of mine, a heterosexual woman, once told me that she would not marry as long as gays and lesbians were not allowed to.  She based this personal policy on her Catholic faith.  Needless to say this was not the official position of the church.

 

Outside the US, Christianity may be associated with liberal causes.  I don´t know.  But rightly or wrongly, most people in the US don´t associate Christian values with openness towards transexuals, a welcoming attitude towards Islamic immigrants, or socialism.  What Jesus himself would do (or think) remains an open question.

[doc benway]

Thank you, Old Dog.

Well said.

[doc benway]

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

This has been my experience 100%.  Which isn´t to say that there aren´t many Christian individuals who veer from the right-wing path.  A good friend of mine, a heterosexual woman, once told me that she would not marry as long as gays and lesbians were not allowed to.  She based this personal policy on her Catholic faith.  Needless to say this was not the official position of the church.

 

Outside the US, Christianity may be associated with liberal causes.  I don´t know.  But rightly or wrongly, most people in the US don´t associate Christian values with openness towards transexuals, a welcoming attitude towards Islamic immigrants, or socialism.  What Jesus himself would do (or think) remains an open question.

 

I think we can extrapolate what Jesus would say or do from the Christian scriptures. I loved when the pope visited the US in 2016. His comment was something along the lines of, ‘the US is a very religious country but their god is money.’