Jing to Qi - a Technical Question

[Wu Ming Jen]

On 8/11/2019 at 8:48 AM, freeform said:

 

I like what you have said.

 

But I think it's important to point out that the bit in bold is not necessarily so. In fact, it rarely is.

 

Developing virtue is a practice in its own right - and it doesn't automatically come with spiritual cultivation. In fact, at certain stages in the process, the exact opposite can and does manifest...

 

That's why there are so many creepy, gregarious and non-virtuous Daoist practitioners with skill out there. (And just as many - if not more, from other traditions - so it's certainly not exclusively Daoist!)

If we teach non virtuous people we will have bad karma that would ruin our own lives, it against the rules of transmission.

 

If we teach kindness, forgiveness, compassion then we have someone to teach. True virtue is not virtuous it happens with out thought or agenda it is just who we are without convention, true virtue.

 

When we see creepy, gregarious and non-virtuous Daoist practitioners they obviously have no real skill and not able to be given transmission. Traditional lineages weed out the garden fast so those types of people can not be taught.

[freeform]

6 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

True virtue is not virtuous it happens with out thought or agenda it is just who we are without convention, true virtue.

 

Completely agree.

 

6 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

If we teach non virtuous people we will have bad karma that would ruin our own lives, it against the rules of transmission.

 

Every person carries defilements within them. There are no fully virtuous people - and no completely non-virtuous people.

 

6 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

When we see creepy, gregarious and non-virtuous Daoist practitioners they obviously have no real skill and not able to be given transmission. Traditional lineages weed out the garden fast so those types of people can not be taught.

 

That’s not the case in my experience. I’ve seen people with great skill, but low virtue. Though I agree that in a traditional lineage these characteristics should and usually are weeded out. Negative characteristics are present in all of us, and cultivation can either increase them, or transform them into virtue.

[MIchael80]

On 12.8.2019 at 6:03 PM, Wuschel said:

 

may i ask why?

sure.

It is taught that silent sitting meditation is beneficial if done for 10-15 minutes for its calming effect etc. but that calming can be reached also with neidan (moving techniques) ...longer is harmful because it is too yin.....but in alchemy you want to increase the yang (yuan jing, yuan chi)....so it is counterproductive.

Once you have the elixir ...the silent sitting is not harmful anymore and it is used in higher stages for further refinement. But in one lineage it was not used at all.

 

Keep in mind what i said in my other posts about neidan with full alchemical principle and the much more well known neidan where this principle is not fully used and other things have interwoven ...bringing different results (not lesser, just different).

[Bruce Qi]

On 8/7/2019 at 9:55 AM, MIchael80 said:

 

The ones that do this public are the (here) much hated russians.....they are boasty but the two schools they teach have the full alchemical system (at least that is what my teacher said).

 

 

who are these Russians ?

 

[MIchael80]

10 hours ago, Bruce Qi said:

who are these Russians ?

 

They were active here on the forum from roughly 2012 to 2017.

They have a school in Russia with several branches there and also Australia.

they teach the only 2 Schools with full alchemical principle outside of china.....which are yuxian pai and a branch of wuliu pai.

One cannot learn Wuliu if not a russian and living near their school....but one can be taught yuxian pai through skype and retreats in russia.

 

Some of them were more active others less. One of them was very active here ..with the name of opendao (a teacher in the yuxian school).

Because they had the knowledge of schools with full alchemical principle they were not shy to "expose" the schools and thoughts wich do not have this knowledge (which is basically every modern school and book about neidan on the market). They just labeled their teaching neidan and stated that all the others are not real neidan. Which from a certain point of view is right but misses the point (see my other posts for this).  As you can guess this resulted in lots of heated discussions and they were not liked much here.

They have stopped posting here a while ago but you can find these threads through the search function (just type in opendao for ex.).

You can contact them through: forum.daode.ru    it is a russian speaking forum with an english section.

 

All the best

Edited August 24, 2019 by MIchael80

[ReturnDragon]

On 8/3/2019 at 6:35 AM, Shubin said:

It seems that in Neidan,  Jing to Qi，is 精 to 炁 （not 气）.

Some schools of Neidan call Jing as Yuan Jing (元精),  why they do not call it "sexual energy" (性精）？

It is because they are two different things. Jing as Yuan Jing (元精) was assumed to be the primordial substance or prenatal jng in the body.

 "sexual energy" is 性能
sperm (性精）:  the proper term is 精子.

[ReturnDragon]

On 8/3/2019 at 9:35 PM, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

But in the variant seen in some texts, "炁" - the top radical doesn't actually represent "Water".

The top character was used often by the ancient Taoist to distinguish 氣 and 炁 .

炁:
旡(wu) is an ancient character for 無(wu). 
無 means none
灬 means fire

旡 + 灬 = 炁
炁 was untouched by fire. It symbolize that the Chi inside the body was not touched by fire.

Edited February 14, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Walker]

On 2/15/2020 at 4:05 AM, ReturnDragon said:

旡 + 灬 = 炁
炁 was untouched by fire. It symbolize that the Chi inside the body was not touched by fire.

 

謬種. Falsehood.

 

炁 does not mean what this deluded man says it does. It is a reference to so-called pre-heaven qi. It is not something that can be said to be located in the human body or any other place, and it has nothing to do with being touched by fire, or not.

 

He has merely looked at two radicals in the Chinese character and invented a definition.

 

To anybody who hopes to cultivate, this is dangerous foolishness.

 

He might want to be your internet friend.

 

But that doesn't mean he has your best interests in mind. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Walker

[mark]

On 8/4/2019 at 5:02 AM, mark said:

 

Nice post.

 

What happens to the body once it shifts from the void to creation/white hole?

 

The 'next stage' They're saying is to Return back to a Black hole.

 

Beyond Bugang

[Cleansox]

Voidisyinyang's special brand of qigong/neigong/nei dan. 

 

Modern and cross cultural. 

[mark]

He's crazy but he's correct

[Cleansox]

1 minute ago, mark said:

He's crazy but he's correct

One out of two, that is at chance level. 

[mark]

Just now, Cleansox said:

One out of two, that is at chance level. 

 

And Yet The Zero Still Shines

[Cleansox]

Now you are at the one-liners that doesn't make sense agail. 

[mark]

Memory is Everything

 

Restore Jing and Your All Bless

 

Seek Taomeow

[exorcist_1699]

On 2019/8/3 at 9:35 PM, Shubin said:

It seems that in Neidan,  Jing to Qi，is 精 to 炁 （not 气）.

Some schools of Neidan call Jing as Yuan Jing (元精),  why they do not call it "sexual energy" (性精）？

 

 

 

1) If you follow the medical qigong way  , then it is  jing ( 精)   to qi  (氣) ;

     If you follow the Neidan way , then it is jing to 炁 ( pre-heavenly qi );

 

What makes it different depends on  what kind of a mind you apply to the process,   whether it is something similar to your daily consciousness or  a unique emptied mind . 

 

2) Yuan ( original ) Jing (essence )   is  something elusive   behind , only its embodied forms in our bodies can be sensed :  when we see we use jing , when we hear , we use jing ; sex is just another form we use our jing , and because it drains  a large amount of it  and gets a materialized form  as result ,  we can identify it easily , others are  formless so they are not that easily be  recognized . Note that in Taoism , no matter  in TCM or Neidan sense,  jing  is not solely   referred to sex or  something stored in sex organ, rather  jing  is referred as the yin ( liquid and material ) aspect of every organ , and qi is the yang ( energy) aspect of every organ  ;  we  can  do many things  undermine our jing  say ,  by over-using our  eyesight in  reading too many books,  listening to too much music ,  sex-addiction  or over-thinking ( it hurts our stomach )..etc.

 

One of the reasons why people unable to attain physical immortality is their  incapacity of grasping  the complexity and delicacy of jing , espeically Yuan Jing ,  which in fact need  careful study of   their  daily life  and  practice ;   heavy reading of TCM's texts are also useful  ( you can view Neidan as a concentrated form of Taoism where a lot of details are not mentioned , it is in  TCM  that you are given them..)

Edited July 15, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[Shubin]

On 7/14/2020 at 11:57 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

 

1) If you follow the medical qigong way  , then it is  jing ( 精)   to qi  (氣) ;

     If you follow the Neidan way , then it is jing to 炁 ( pre-heavenly qi );

 

What makes it different depends on  what kind of a mind you apply to the process,   whether it is something similar to your daily consciousness or  a unique emptied mind . 

 

2) Yuan ( original ) Jing (essence )   is  something elusive   behind , only its embodied forms in our bodies can be sensed :  when we see we use jing , when we hear , we use jing ; sex is just another form we use our jing , and because it drains  a large amount of it  and gets a materialized form  as result ,  we can identify it easily , others are  formless so they are not that easily be  recognized . Note that in Taoism , no matter  in TCM or Neidan sense,  jing  is not solely   referred to sex or  something stored in sex organ, rather  jing  is referred as the yin ( liquid and material ) aspect of every organ , and qi is the yang ( energy) aspect of every organ  ;  we  can  do many things  undermine our jing  say ,  by over-using our  eyesight in  reading too many books,  listening to too much music ,  sex-addiction  or over-thinking ( it hurts our stomach )..etc.

 

One of the reasons why people unable to attain physical immortality is their  incapacity of grasping  the complexity and delicacy of jing , espeically Yuan Jing ,  which in fact need  careful study of   their  daily life  and  practice ;   heavy reading of TCM's texts are also useful  ( you can view Neidan as a concentrated form of Taoism where a lot of details are not mentioned , it is in  TCM  that you are given them..)

Thanks for the detailed answers on my questions.

The unique emptied mind may be able to help on getting pre-heaven qi, but the body has to be under certain conditions, too.

Also, "emptied" is “空”，not “虚”。 

Many people take Taoism and Traditional Chinese Medicine as two different things.

[Goku76]

On 8/2/2019 at 12:19 PM, dwai said:

Jing to Qi happens when you deliberately start qi cultivation. What we are doing is essentially increasing the vibrational frequency of the jing and converting it to qi by the method of cultivation we choose. There are pre-heaven and post-heaven energies. The pre-heaven stuff we are born with and cannot be increased, it keeps decreasing until it dissipates (when the body dies). The post-heaven stuff comes from food and environment. 

No. We sink the Qi and drop it into/store it in the lower dan tien. 

Then there is Jin (also called jing by some traditions), which is generated by burning the qi and storing it in the bone marrow throughout your skeleton. This is akin to horse power generated by burning gasoline. The more we can condense the qi, the greater the jin we accrue and store in the marrows. This gives us more "power". The process by which we can get to this "creating and storing jin" is emptiness. We have to drop literally everything. Let go of all concepts, all thought, etc etc. That is when we start vibrating our qi at an even higher frequency to become shen or spirit.

 

But this doesn't mean that we don't already have Qi, Jing and Shen. We are born with them already. We are not necessarily making "new" stuff. We are uncovering what we already have, through the process of meditation and systematic cultivation. 

 

The way I understand it is, jing, qi and shen are all essentially part of the same continuum. They are not "different" substances. They are just different vibrational frequencies of the same energy. Eventually it becomes apparent (via direct experience) that there is only one energy, and every "thing" is that same energy vibrating in different frequencies. 

 

@dwai So then with this Tai Chi method of condensing chi in the bones to "burn the gasoline", what is the difference between this and how I mentioned a while back on the mo pai thread, how condensing energy with the supposed lvl. 2 technique Is the same as tai chi except only in the dantien? You could say that you are burning the gasoline but only in your Dantien right? If I remember correctly someone had mentioned that slow breathing plus, straining the muscles equals energy stagnation, and cancer. But recently I have done 100 days Chi Kung exercises from Tao of Meditation and one of the technique's requires you to let your breath fill the arms, and shoulders and squeeze very tightly for as long as comfortable. What are your thoughts on this? 

[dwai]

13 hours ago, Goku76 said:

@dwai So then with this Tai Chi method of condensing chi in the bones to "burn the gasoline", what is the difference between this and how I mentioned a while back on the mo pai thread, how condensing energy with the supposed lvl. 2 technique Is the same as tai chi except only in the dantien?

I've not read your mo pai thread comment, but the condensing into the marrow is a beginning process. Once the condensing process is "kickstarted", it will naturally condense into the lower dantien. In fact, after some practice, the condensing process will happen whenever we do the form. But the condensing to bone marrow is a critical beginning practice (i.e. beginning of advanced level taiji, imho). 

13 hours ago, Goku76 said:

You could say that you are burning the gasoline but only in your Dantien right? If I remember correctly someone had mentioned that slow breathing plus, straining the muscles equals energy stagnation, and cancer. But recently I have done 100 days Chi Kung exercises from Tao of Meditation and one of the technique's requires you to let your breath fill the arms, and shoulders and squeeze very tightly for as long as comfortable. What are your thoughts on this? 

There should not be physical squeezing...just a compression triggered by the mind alone imho. When I condense, I send my mind intent into the marrow from all directions, creating a pulling force, which draws the qi/breath etc into the marrow. I think this is called "all body pore breathing" in some other systems. 

[exorcist_1699]

On 8/3/2020 at 5:29 AM, Shubin said:

Thanks for the detailed answers on my questions.

The unique emptied mind may be able to help on getting pre-heaven qi, but the body has to be under certain conditions, too.

Also, "emptied" is “空”，not “虚”。 

Many people take Taoism and Traditional Chinese Medicine as two different things.

 

Both Taoism and TCM base on jing, qi , shen  ,  these are basic stuff they both share , but there are  really some differences :

 

1) Taoism ( I mean Neidan) is for  eternal life ,  TCM is   for  curing diseases and health;

 

2) While Taoism emphasizes the attainment of pre-heavenly qi,  TCM limits itself to  use  the post-heavenly qi ;

 

3) TCM looks more complicated , or trivial , as you need to know all 14 meridians , concepts related to them say Shao Yang, Yang-Ming..etc  and  the 5-element theory..so as to identify the diseases and make use of acupuncture, tuna ,herbs  to cure ; on the other hand,  in  Neidan, once you are capable of initializing qi , you start to be able to cure ( at least yourself);  the jing-qi-shen theory  and the Du  plus Ren meridians are the main things you need to know , 5-element theory is less important because once the qi  from lower dantian initialized , it will build up and spread... So unless you are eager  to preach Taoist theory to the public and answer  troubles from qi-gong practitioners ,  the Neidan path should be a simpler one .

 

4) Hardly does TCM mention the emptied-Mind issue, but in Neidan it is crucial .

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[Shubin]

On 9/15/2020 at 12:17 AM, exorcist_1699 said:

"Both Taoism and TCM base on jing, qi , shen  ,  these are basic stuff they both share , but there are  really some differences :"

 

Taoism has different branches, and only some branches are based on the theory of Jing, Qi, Shen.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Shubin said:

 

Taoism has different branches, and only some branches are based on the theory of Jing, Qi, Shen.

 

Interesting - I know that not all branches follow the same internal process, but I’d be surprised (and interested) to hear of Daoist traditions that don’t account for Qi at all.

[EmeraldHead]

17 hours ago, Shubin said:

 

Taoism has different branches, and only some branches are based on the theory of Jing, Qi, Shen.

 

I haven't heard this before but this must be true. There surely a lot more forms of energy than 6 (postnatal & prenatal sanbao). So categorizing all into 6 seems to be a modern off-track. £$$$,$$$,$$$

[exorcist_1699]

There are two hurdles to pass  if  people  follow Daoist way towards  Immortality ,and  they can be very  " technical " :

1) Whether or not people can initialize  qi ,ie ,  convert their  essence ( jing) to qi or not . If not , the life energy in their bodies are still not grasped in their own  hands , but leaking outside , mainly through sex or nocturnal leakeags . If they  can turn their jing into qi , then they can reverse the direction of the downward flow of jing , now in the form qi, upwards to their  spine and brain ;  which  also means some  start of reversing the direction of the time's arrow of  their life . In fact, many old people do have  feelings or doubts about whether they have lived through their lifetime or not  ,  a period full of  so  many events and moments :  those regrets , successes and  defeats, yet now all became so illusory and uncertain   . Unfortunately , although they can doubt the ever existence of them ,  the lost hair ,  withered faces and crumpled knees are  so real as proofs , beyond doubt  ; the proof of the flow of time is  not people's  subjective feelings , but things that  are jing-related .

2) Whether they  understand  and grasp what an emptied Mind is ?  Notice that " focusing on qi " , " visualizing qi as a light ball ", " leading qi to a place  wanted "..etc   all are those mindsets unrelated , not so suitable  . Assume that you are learning Physics,  in order to answer a simple question say  how far a car has traveled  in certain period of time at certain speed , what you need are some arithmetic skills of addition and  multiplication ; but in  order to solve some problems in higher Physics , say in  Thermodynamics,  about how  gas molecules behaves under various conditions, then you may need some mathematical tool ,say partial differentiation , a specific mindset of  varied levels of abstractions , to handle it .  Similarly , in the arena of qi, we also need some specific kind of  abstractions , now intuitive not analytic,  like Zen's , to handle the  high-quality qi ( pre-heavenly  qi ) we are targeting at .  

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by exorcist_1699

[yugenphoenix]

This is one of the clearest explanations of JING, in particular, and “changing” JING to CHI in general, I have heard in a long while. 
 

I have learned these facts experientially myself. 

 

Respect 🙇‍♂️