An end to the intellect?

[Mskied]

Hi Im wondering if there is anyone familiar with a system that is meant to be advanced where the adept no longer thinks.  Ive been initiated into the Kabbalah and Ive experienced advanced Kundalini and fought the serpent to attain wisdom, but the serpent fights back, and now I am forced not to move my mind lest it keep devouring.  I was given over to Thelema, and I know that Therion wanted an end to reason, and I wonder if there are some other systems I could explore that does not want the adept to access their mind.  Ive fortunately finished my studies and no longer seek knowledge, but Im also kept from an interest in writing or broadening my information base, and have to practice a mental stillness, which is quite boring and not at all the promised land of liberty and creativity.  Thanks in advance 

[thelerner]

On 12/22/2017 at 2:18 PM, thelerner said:

There are some excellent guided meditations around.

 

.. I present Barry Long, a mystic, perhaps best known as a major influence behind Eckhardt Tolle.   Long has a soothing voice, with straight forward methods of removing thoughts.  This meditation is from a youtube video Start Meditating Now by Barry Long, originally 36.51 minutes, after listening once or twice, feel free to fast forward to 6:24 minutes (or 10:24) depending on how much pre-instruction you want.   You can listen at your computer or transfer it to an MP3 player to listen to in bed or during meditation. 

 

I encourage people to give this a try.  This is a great experiential meditation, with imo important lessons.  Like many mystics, Long sees thoughts as addictions, once we get away from habitual 'junk' thoughts, we get more instep with reality.    Generally a good thing.

 

Meditation_guided_Barry_Long_1.mp3

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB_S4jLJ3KI&list=PLmOtSswGcXa4bmB2BiYbZMsO0CM9w_OsY

 

Not thinking is a hard nut to crack.  Some people can operate out of there subconscious/unconscious and do superbly.  Others can't.  If you can make good decisions without having to go into 'move your lips as you read' mode of thinking, go for it, that's great, the essence of 'flow'.  If you find you're making bad decisions in 'no word/thoughtless mode' then its not for you.   Its important to judge honestly. 

[Mskied]

Ive been fortunate, and unfortunate, in that I have been able to keep my mind clean, except that I have listened to nearly 4 decades of music, as much as I can, and have contemplated their lyrics and rhythm to seek truth.  I didn't read much as an adult, and learned only minimal things in school.  Mostly a free spirit, I have been allowed to spend my time musing about the invisible nature of force and the impetus to love and be kind.  I naturally fell into the sphere of Chesed early.  I guess I took for granted that I had a clean mind, and was able to do pretty much whatever I chose as I chose to do things- not very inhibited but not completely lawless.  I was handed over to Thelema after initiation into Kabbalah (much to my dismay) and have spent 20 years fighting for sanity.  

 

I recognize that there is the LHP and the RHP- it is the easiest and most convenient analogy for working with Law and Will.  The left is lawless- total lawless and willful beings.  The right is the lawful and willed, and for that, you have every reason imaginable to proclaim your truth and attain your Will.  It depends what you believe is Good.  Go to the far right, and you find certain religious Truth, and the laws and rules of the prophets from those places.  

 

The key is to know your law, and to know what you will allow, and to know those that disagree with your law or work in ways that you would think is lawless.  The Jewish faith warns about this very well, especially Christianity.  There is symbolism, and the forms of religious and philosophical truth that comes from the real truth behind the symbol, and its been my duty to sort through the history of these things to assert my truth, in the hopes of aiding the world.  Hard task.

 

Im sure most serious students are aware that spiritual discipline is a life choice, and its not easily handled when we have to do other things in life.  It is however rewarding.  It requires great diligence to know, and to know not, and to know of others and to know your own- and to know how to defend against the others, and how to eloquently communicate and interact with people of opposing views.  In our age, this is a monumental task.  I began life just wanting to run, and now I am being forced to sit still.  I am looking forward to the future to see what new journey is ahead.

 

 

[Mskied]

Im realizing why I am in this state.  I broke down my ego/soul/history to the point of knowing my reasons for being, and my choices and the results of them, recognizing my own folly and success.  In this process I realized that we all lead from these places.  I guess this is what you call "death of the ego", for I stopped forcing my Will onto the world, and started to let the world force its Will onto me.  In this state, I become very tolerant of all activity, but I choose not to stay here, because I have no power.  In order to mold reality to what I desire, I must return to Ego.  Im not sure this non-ego is sustainable in a modern context, but it helps alleviate some of the distress of personal want.  Ive defined it as this:  detachment from desire takes away its power, but I have to move back into desire again, for sitting in quiet is not desirable, except this time I am free from want, so whatever comes from my efforts is bounty.

 

I can sit and allow others to propose to me their Will, and I can allow it to be what it is, and tolerate all ignorance, or I can reassert my own knowledge and move the Will presented in the direction of my choosing.  Either way, I am free now, so what comes, comes.  I guess I am at some desired state.  Personally... well, its better than fighting demons I guess.

[Jadespear]

...why on earth would you not want to think?  Thinking is the basis of your intellect, which is your ability to understand things through reasoning and rationale.  If you don't think and cant understand things, what kind of existence are you going to have?  

[thelerner]

19 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

...why on earth would you not want to think?  Thinking is the basis of your intellect, which is your ability to understand things through reasoning and rationale.  If you don't think and cant understand things, what kind of existence are you going to have?  

imo, a good smooth one.  Thinking is a great tool but not our only one.  We don't need constant measuring, planning and judging all the time.  We have a vast deep consciousness that can function quickly and efficiently without 'talking' to ourselves. 

 

Having a habitual 'thinking' voice in your head can be bit like moving your lips when reading.  Alright for somethings, but in general slows things down.

 

 

[EmeraldHead]

I don't really understand this thread....you don't want thought-forms? Or ability to control them Regardless of which place (=depth) in the subconsciouss to consciouss spectrum of consciousness they Arise From? Than you want Wei Wu Wei, basically; which requires a good functional well developed atman/Adam Kadmon and his energy/chi called Yechidah or pure awareness in hinduism. I've dealt with a similar issue ..

[thelerner]

What I was getting at is, we want both.  thought forms ie ability to 'think' things out and the ability to function well without constant measuring, judging, planning.. thinking out loud to ourselves.   Trusting our innate intelligence. 

 

We function best with a quiet mind but that's not to say the thinking mind isn't a good tool when needed.  In the West we tend to over emphasize it.  Until its only seen in states of mastery or when tired or meditating.  Quiet flow becomes something special instead of our usual state of mind.  

Edited August 25, 2019 by thelerner

[C T]

One way to suspend discursive mind is to learn how to wilfully generate states of inner bliss. 

Thats the mental equivalent of a full body orgasmic peak experience. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by C T

[Nungali]

On 24/08/2019 at 6:05 AM, EmeraldHead said:

I don't really understand this thread....you don't want thought-forms? Or ability to control them Regardless of which place (=depth) in the subconsciouss to consciouss spectrum of consciousness they Arise From? Than you want Wei Wu Wei, basically; which requires a good functional well developed atman/Adam Kadmon and his energy/chi called Yechidah or pure awareness in hinduism. I've dealt with a similar issue ..

 

 

I wouldn't try to hard - its full of   misunderstandings and conflictual ideas and confusions

 

Also his posts are full of just plain wrong stuff

 

just one glaring example : 

 

On 03/08/2019 at 10:26 AM, Mskied said:

 ....   I was given over to Thelema, and I know that Therion wanted an end to reason, and I wonder if there are some other systems I could explore that does not want the adept to access their mind.  ...

 

Now he is saying ( elsewhere ) that  this system is satanic and also that he is a Christian  ... and met divine forces ( that will want to punish you when you meet them  )  ... standard Christian guilt and redemption stuff   running under a mask to try and subvert Thelema and other systems of  individual gnosis and anarchistic religion .

 

But what would I know ?   Lets look at what 'Therion' says himself      (and I note that  , although Mskied touts opinion ( forst for then against ) Thelema , BoL, Crowley etc   ... he can never show a reference , )  ;

 

" 

16.

To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17.

Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?   - Liber Librae   Or the basic beginners handbook Liber O   1. The student must FIRST obtain a thorough knowledge of “Book 777”, especially of columns i., ii., iii., v., vi., vii., ix., xi., xii., xiv., xv., xvi., xvii., xviii., xix., xxxiv., xxxv., xxxviii., {14} xxxix., xl., xli., xlii., xlv., liv., lv., lix., lx., lxi., lxiii., lxx., lxxv., lxxvii., lxviii., lxxix., lxxx., lxxxi., lxxxiii., xcvii., xcviii., xcix., c., ci., cxvii., cxviii., cxxxvii., cxxxviii., cxxxix., clxxv., clxxvi., clxxvii., clxxxii.   When these are committed to memory, he will begin to understand the nature of these correspondences "   "memory ' ... 'begin to understand '       - bit hard without thoughts or an 'end to reason '

[Mskied]

line 27 chapter 2 the book of the law: There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.

 

 

line 32 chapter 2 the book of the law:  Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.

[Mskied]

Also I don't recall saying Im a Christian or anything much of anything with  a name.  Ill give you this much, I do speculate on the essential kernel that motivates named religions.  For instance I went  a little far when I said that the Law of JHVH is kindness, I really don't know because Ive never had that conversation with anyone named JHVH and I don't know any "Jews", though I have read that they revere the virtue.  

 

This weekend I realized that there are many Laws, and many prophets, and you will obviously need to pick the one you follow, this is just the most sensible Law I discovered, one that, if applied, would change the case of our existence, but obviously with people like Crowley running around, it wont.  Im fine with Crowley- he sees things as what they are, and that is his whole premise, I believe- that everything is because it is, and everything under the Sun is perfectly what it should be, unless you hesitate, which is why I say this sounds more anti intellectual than not.  Im not saying Crowley and Thelema worship a God named Satan, but from the vantage of a Judeo based religion, they probably would, and so I use that name, because it fits.  

 

I also use Satan because I have my own definition of the God, and it fits my definition, as I, and most of the Western World, have been exposed to, and are constantly interacting with, Christians.  

 

As far as my experiences, believe what you want.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Mskied

[Mskied]

As far as conceiving and defining thought forms to control on the Astral Plane, I never had the chance to do that, as I was simply tossed into the Abyss and it was fight or flight.  Every time I tried to do such a thing I was beaten and devoured. 

[Desmonddf]

On 05/08/2019 at 10:42 AM, Mskied said:

I recognize that there is the LHP and the RHP- it is the easiest and most convenient analogy for working with Law and Will.  The left is lawless- total lawless and willful beings.  The right is the lawful and willed, and for that, you have every reason imaginable to proclaim your truth and attain your Will.  It depends what you believe is Good.  Go to the far right, and you find certain religious Truth, and the laws and rules of the prophets from those places.  

 

Not quite. LHP and RHP are quite racists ideas propagated by european occultists ever since they became influenced by dualism.

 

Good practioners of what would be called "LHP" practices (such as excesses and breaking mental and moral shackles) do not become lawless - they become aware.

 

Indeed, Thelema is considered to be LHP in many RHP occult orders, such as the Martinists, Rose-Cross' and even some massonry adepts.

 

On 07/08/2019 at 7:48 AM, Mskied said:

Im realizing why I am in this state.  I broke down my ego/soul/history to the point of knowing my reasons for being, and my choices and the results of them, recognizing my own folly and success.

 

That's the "Abyss Baby" stage. You have failed to cross the Abyss and is now dealing with a fractured ego. To solve that you'll have to achieve conversation with your Sacred Guardian Angel and find your own Kingship according to the Law.

 

On 07/08/2019 at 7:48 AM, Mskied said:

I guess this is what you call "death of the ego", for I stopped forcing my Will onto the world, and started to let the world force its Will onto me

 

Not exactly. That's the destruction of the ego, not its death. Ego never really dies, it surrenders and dissolves into Will.

You haven't found your own Will, and have been letting the Will of others possess you. That's being a slave under the kingship of others. You must find your own Kingship, your own Will - the one true Will which will make you King as Aiwas called.

 

At this moment, you not only doesn't has an ego, but also has many of the social and mental vines of others trying to possess you. That's why it is said that, once you fall into the Abyss and becomes an Abyss Baby you've lost your chance in this life.

 

Not exactly, you still have a chance if you find your own Will - but you must remain watchfull of these vines trying to possess you, as they don't have a mind of their own and would, indeed, turn you insane.

 

Everyone has an Essence, a Will granted by "god" (Kether). This is your Tipheret, and your Sacred Guardian Angel is the universal force which guards and protects this Will of yours. This is why you NEED to achieve conversation with it in order to reach Adeptus Minor.

 

If you don't, then you'll become passive and inactive. A pawn made of flesh, bones and empty space on your head. Devoid of Soul, Will, Spirit.

 

 

On 07/08/2019 at 7:48 AM, Mskied said:

Ive defined it as this:  detachment from desire takes away its power, but I have to move back into desire again, for sitting in quiet is not desirable, except this time I am free from want, so whatever comes from my efforts is bounty.

 

Non-action would be the answer. You (ego) won't ever do anything again. Your Will will manifest through you, and act in the world. Achieving complete detachment is only half the equation - the other half is manifesting Will and identifying yourself (creating a "golden ego", a "philosopher's stone" with your Ego) with your Will and thus becoming perfect.

 

Once you do that, there will be no desire, no quiet and no action. You'll be a living manifestation of Essence/Will, and therefore a King.

[Mskied]

Yes this is why I have declared in my East to West thread that I have discovered the Law of Kindness, for there are two people involved in making Law correct:  me and you.  If I make a Law according to anything but kindness, it becomes about my want and Will, which is self motivated by my Ego wanting something from another person and asserting my Will onto them, which is sorcery and Black Magick.  You say that LHP isn't lawless, that it is aware- it is aware of the want of the individual and not a Law that both can agree is Good.

  There is no escape from being submissive according to a Law that is Good for both me and you, unless you iron out the bars you will set when kindness is not returned.  By making my Will to be kind, I am not asserting my Will for personal desire, and am honoring the other person as a living embodiment of Deity as I am.  However, if that person does not partake in that Will of kindness, then I have to protect my interests lest I become their slave.

  I chose the Law of Kindness because it is the proper step forward in a society where two individuals come together and raise children (yes, sometimes just one).  Obviously children will be lawless until they find a reason to be lawful, but in the rearing of that child we can either be tolerant and Wise and kind in our instruction and illustration of why Law is Good, or we can be unkind and cruel in our punishing and cause harm to their development to be kind people.  This applies also to adults, who naturally expect kindness and are offended when it isn't offered.  

 

This system I have designed isn't an absolute, not all people are offended when kindness is lacking, and these people can still be considered lawful from  a "my rights, your rights" point of view, it depends on what kind of relationship I want to have with that individual.

 

I don't think we ever reach perfect Will, for there is always some new scenario to engage in that causes us to consider and choose paths of action. Anything less than considerate gentleness with calm Wisdom is going to bring my Will into conflict with yours, and there will be no understanding and shared enlightenment, just me oppressing you with my Will and want, which isn't an objective Law, it is a Law of the Self, which is a manifestation of what I would call the LHP, which isn't necessarily bad for the LHP magician unless I oppose that Will.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Mskied

[Mskied]

When I say that I don't want to act on personal desire I mean a desire that will only garner my want without a return of the need of the individual I interact with.  Its hard to escape doing things out of desire, for everything is motivated by a want based on desires or needs.  Im still ironing our how this part works, at what point I can get my desire without using black magick.  I don't want to use sorcery, for love is a gift and at the worst it should be a trade off, one that is willfully granted and not coerced from the hands of the lover.  Finding the way to do this properly seems like an impossible ideal, for in all things there is an initiation and an expectation, and sorcery is such a part of human interaction.  It almost makes more sense to just be powerful and seduce to get my desire without regards to what the other gets from it.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Mskied

[Jadespear]

On 8/23/2019 at 3:55 PM, thelerner said:

imo, a good smooth one.  Thinking is a great tool but not our only one.  We don't need constant measuring, planning and judging all the time.  We have a vast deep consciousness that can function quickly and efficiently without 'talking' to ourselves. 

 

Having a habitual 'thinking' voice in your head can be bit like moving your lips when reading.  Alright for somethings, but in general slows things down.

 

 

 

...Yes, while the constant internal verbal speaking is unnecessary, what you are referring to in it's place to use I also understand to be a form of thinking... or "understanding".  My point was that our internal dialogue is a natural result of that intuitive type of "understanding" or base of knowledge we have...  hence it is pointless to try and end the natural part of ourselves that is our thinking. 

[Mskied]

I believe intuition has a rule set, though Im not certain its the same for everyone.  If it were, we could then declare the natural Law of what we should desire from events and people.

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Mskied said:

line 27 chapter 2 the book of the law: There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.

 

 

line 32 chapter 2 the book of the law:  Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.

 

Those quotes from that book are entirely relevant to ones real level of initiation  and  are notorious for their  often  weird, obscure  and even dangerous and violent interpretation..   You chose a REALLY bad source to cite.  I am citing AC's instructional material, not his 'channelling' .   His instructional material is  rational , his 'channelling' is a hotchpotch of assorted jumbling ,  'cosmic' contacts and assorted uprisings from his own unconscious .... replete with  post-Victorian imagery.

 

I recall reading you touting Christianity, 'talking' to 'Jews' who asked you if you wanted to '  join '

 

" Im not saying Crowley and Thelema worship a God named Satan, but from the vantage of a Judeo based religion, they probably would, and so I use that name, because it fits.   "

 

You  said  his law ( do what thou wilt ... which you seem to think implies interference with YOUR will )  was Satanic ... and that love was the law of Satan .    So although, now, not claiming to be Christian, you happily borrow their outlook and tout it here.

 

And after the denial, you admit ;  " I also use Satan because I have my own definition of the God, and it fits my definition,  "

 

?

 

and you have posted so much over so short a period of time, I am not surprised you cant remember what you wrote .  - and thats only the random snippets I read !   Heaven knows what is in the rest of it !

 

You are also claiming to be 'an Adept' which is a very high level of initiation and awareness.

 

R  i i i i i g h t  !    

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Not quite. LHP and RHP are quite racists ideas propagated by european occultists ever since they became influenced by dualism.

 

Good practioners of what would be called "LHP" practices (such as excesses and breaking mental and moral shackles) do not become lawless - they become aware.

 

Indeed, Thelema is considered to be LHP in many RHP occult orders, such as the Martinists, Rose-Cross' and even some massonry adepts.

 

 

That's the "Abyss Baby" stage. You have failed to cross the Abyss and is now dealing with a fractured ego. To solve that you'll have to achieve conversation with your Sacred Guardian Angel and find your own Kingship according to the Law.

 

 

Not exactly. That's the destruction of the ego, not its death. Ego never really dies, it surrenders and dissolves into Will.

You haven't found your own Will, and have been letting the Will of others possess you. That's being a slave under the kingship of others. You must find your own Kingship, your own Will - the one true Will which will make you King as Aiwas called.

 

At this moment, you not only doesn't has an ego, but also has many of the social and mental vines of others trying to possess you. That's why it is said that, once you fall into the Abyss and becomes an Abyss Baby you've lost your chance in this life.

 

Not exactly, you still have a chance if you find your own Will - but you must remain watchfull of these vines trying to possess you, as they don't have a mind of their own and would, indeed, turn you insane.

 

Everyone has an Essence, a Will granted by "god" (Kether). This is your Tipheret, and your Sacred Guardian Angel is the universal force which guards and protects this Will of yours. This is why you NEED to achieve conversation with it in order to reach Adeptus Minor.

 

If you don't, then you'll become passive and inactive. A pawn made of flesh, bones and empty space on your head. Devoid of Soul, Will, Spirit.

 

 

 

Non-action would be the answer. You (ego) won't ever do anything again. Your Will will manifest through you, and act in the world. Achieving complete detachment is only half the equation - the other half is manifesting Will and identifying yourself (creating a "golden ego", a "philosopher's stone" with your Ego) with your Will and thus becoming perfect.

 

Once you do that, there will be no desire, no quiet and no action. You'll be a living manifestation of Essence/Will, and therefore a King.

 

Great summary   ^ 

 

M.  thinks he is an ' Adept ' .

 

 

[Mskied]

And what do you think you are Nungali?

[Jadespear]

I hope you all know that the word “adept” simply means one who is skilled.  All you’re debating here is mostly philosophical and subjective in nature to your own experiences... nothing really adept about it... unless you count having a philosophical point of view and opinion and your own experiences as equating to an adept... 

 

pretty sure real “adepts” actually have somewhat useful skills more than intellectual conjecture and mental mind games.  

[Nungali]

I hope YOU know .... he is  suggesting, through the stuff he wrote it is a 'grade' (of initiation) 'Kabbalistic  / GD  'Adept'  \... not being 'adept' at something

 

adept

 

adjective

adjective: adept

/əˈdɛpt,ˈadɛpt/

1. .

   very skilled or proficient at something.

   "she is adept at cutting through red tape"

    

   .

   a person who is skilled or proficient at something.

   "he is an adept at imitation"

    

    

    

   In the initiatory system of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, an adept is one who has taken the oath of the 5=6 grade and has been granted the title Adeptus Minor.^[6] Symbolically this degree represents a spiritual aspirant who, having mastered the union of the four elements under an upright and balanced spirit,^[7] is allowed passage from the Portal of the Vault of the Adepti into the tomb of Christian Rosenkreutz in the center of the Rosicrucian Mountain of Initiation, Abiegnus, at the center of the universe.^[8] The grade of Adeptus Minor and subsequent grades, Adeptus Major, and Adeptus Exemptus form the Second Order of the Golden Dawn, also called the Rosæ Rubeæ et Aureæ Crucis (The Ruby Rose and Golden Cross). These grades correspond to the kabbalistic sephirah of Tiphereth, Geburah, and Chesed respectively.^[9]

   The oath of the Adeptus Minor includes a provision to "unite myself with my higher and Divine Genius",^[10] a process which is more commonly referred to (by way of Aleister Crowley) as Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. To undertake this process the Adeptus Minor must reconfirm the work of earlier grades (Zelator through Philosophus) with their newfound knowledge before passing to the Adeptus Major degree, as a full-fledged adept.

    

   - Wiki.

    

    

   See M's raves about his 'experience' with sepiroth pertaining to his 'adeptship'

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Mskied said:

And what do you think you are Nungali?

 

 

Part of the Rainbow Serpents dream.

 

[Mskied]

This thread has become rather humorous as I don't recall naming myself anyone other than someone that has been initiated.  Get off your high horses please Im just sharing.  All that is written are just systems organized with methods to climb the mountain of experience that is found in initiation, and they are all simple opinion on what that will become and entail.  Some people experience Magick, and some people just read about it.  I am nothing but transparent in my conversations.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Mskied