An end to the intellect?

[manitou]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

   HA !       

 

(  I was going to question you on the blue bit . ) 

 

 

Unfortunately, it's geographically undesirable.    And a few other things that make for more stones on the Con pile than the Pro pile.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by manitou

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Unfortunately, it's geographically undesirable.   

 

?  

 

Does that mean too far away ?

 

OR

 

 

 

 

 " Sorry , you come from  a mountainous area with a low population , high resources but low political and economic activities  ? "

 

7 hours ago, manitou said:

And a few other things that make for more stones on the Con pile than the Pro pile.

 

 

Ahhhh .... the sensibilities of maturity !

 

When I was younger, I would have kicked those scales out my way in the rush to .... 'explore' .

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

?  

 

Does that mean too far away ?

 

OR

 

 

 

 

 " Sorry , you come from  a mountainous area with a low population , high resources but low political and economic activities  ? "

 

 

Ahhhh .... the sensibilities of maturity !

 

When I was younger, I would have kicked those scales out my way in the rush to .... 'explore' .

 

 

Seeing as this thread is titled An End To The Intellect, you little twerp, I will give you a little further explanation of why I am standing there with my nose in the air while he tries to give me flowers.

 

PRO:  There was a current of energy that was really something.

 

PRO:  He was a great watercolor painter.

 

PRO:  He was really funny.

 

CON:  This guy's heading into health problems.  I can see his knees need replacing, and his swollen lower limbs are probably indicative of poor circulation.  To make this work, I will have to uproot my life in Palm Springs, which I love, and go back and live in some chilly cabin on the east coast so I would have the privilege of being a nursemaid to this geezer.  He's also a bit heavy and out of shape and sort of pre-diabetes.

 

The very biggest CON:  We did discuss the idea of meeting each other in different places on the planet.  That could be fun.  I said "I'd really love to spend some days at the Grand Canyon".  His response:  "That sounds great!  Will we be tent camping on the dirt?"  I immediately replied that "No, we will be staying in that pretty hotel on the rim" 

 

Neither one of us brought that subject up again.

 

So I'm afraid, my young and ardent little friend, the sensibilities of maturity are based on many years of not knowing what I did or didn't want.  (Although he did call just now and it was really nice to talk to him.  Damn.) 

 

 

[manitou]

Oh I forgot.  

 

CON:   You've gotta speak into his good ear.

[Mskied]

Um... it doesn't sound like you are erring on the side of love

[Mskied]

On 8/23/2019 at 2:31 PM, Jadespear said:

...why on earth would you not want to think?  Thinking is the basis of your intellect, which is your ability to understand things through reasoning and rationale.  If you don't think and cant understand things, what kind of existence are you going to have?  

 

I actually feel the same way as you.  I love to think, and to imagine, and try to create a vision of what I am conceiving.  Its very difficult for me to acclimate to this new non-thinking me.

[manitou]

1 minute ago, Mskied said:

Um... it doesn't sound like you are erring on the side of love

 

 

Yes, I am.  I am including myself in the equation.  

[Nungali]

' Little twerp '    ???  

 

Twerp  ..... hmmmm ,  better look it up to make sure ;

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=twerp

Twerp

Justin Bieber

annoying "twerp" with a high pitch squel in your ear when you wake up in the morning feeling digusted to hear a pre-pubed boy singin and prancin like a balet and fat viking singin chick type combined.

 

 

 

.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Nungali

[manitou]

Yes, my darling!  That's it exactly!!  

[manitou]

3 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

I actually feel the same way as you.  I love to think, and to imagine, and try to create a vision of what I am conceiving.  Its very difficult for me to acclimate to this new non-thinking me.

 

 

You can merge in or out any time you wish.  You're either sitting on the fence watching the parade (silent mind) or participating in the parade.  Chop wood, carry water.  If you choose the parade for a while, put your back into it.  Be fully present.  Immersion into a task is truly one of life's blessings.

 

I don't consider that wei wu wei is something we walk around with all the time.  It's good that your meditations have gotten you to a place of silent mind.  But the wu wei is something we 'do' - or more accurately - 'not do'.  I think it usually applies to the wisdom of non-action as another dynamic is occurring.  The one Doing Nothing on the situation will not change the dynamic or try to control the situation.  All things blow by.  Occasionally something comes right at you.  You have to move it out of the way - this is when you choose the way of agape love (not Eros) in making a decision.  

 

I think you'll find that you use this place of oneness is a place of rest.  Just waiting at the doctor's office can turn into a mental spa.

[Jadespear]

On 9/12/2019 at 3:58 PM, Mskied said:

 

I actually feel the same way as you.  I love to think, and to imagine, and try to create a vision of what I am conceiving.  Its very difficult for me to acclimate to this new non-thinking me.

... why try to acclimate?  I understand that constant thought or even the most menial of thinking is one thing that can be called "the intellect", and there is another way of understanding that is more intuitive, which I believe is the somewhat basis of certain types of thought, and there is even yet another level deeper that is subconscious and instinctual.  Underlying all these and through them is the all pervasive awareness of oneself.  Are you trying to only be aware ?

 

[Mskied]

Im trying to organize my ideas into perfect Wisdom but the demons make it too difficult to do this.  Ive been forced into non-thinking because I can no longer fight them off.  Now my mind has gone silent, as the demons have departed, and I am able to clarify and gather my ideas again, but I fear that they will return once I begin again, so I find myself having to be content with sitting silently.

[Nungali]

Nice to see someone likes the Greek terms  .other than our general English ones

 

 

Agape  (original Greek)  '  affection '   

 

Eros    -  for the longer story   see    *

 

Also ;

 

Philia   -  ' brotherly love'  .

 

Philautia  -   ' self love '  . Now here we get REAL interesting. It needs to be understood in the old sense . Its something we have lost in many modern societies, and it means more than some modern definitions that seem negative.  Also it is tied in with old meaning of 'soul' . another concept and function that has suffered  *  .

 

But  ' recently ' some western  disciplines have seen its worth ; 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-love#Mental_health

 

It also explains why many 'tribal / indigenous ' people have that classic ' happiness '   , although ' poor' and 'primitive '' .

 

 

 

*   'Soul ' / Psyekhe  and Eros (  ' Ego'  )     dynamic  ;

 

https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Psykhe.html

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Nungali

[Mskied]

Self love which seems to have been translated into Pride took a big hit with Christianity.  The Greeks found this word as a virtue, and then Rome turned it into a vice.  I see why it borders on vice, well they actually label it Sin, but its not Sin in itself, its what Pride can lead us to do that is sinful.  I think humanity has snubbed this as a vice, because we like to feel good, and it feels good to know we have done well, or look and are good.  We like that spirit, especially when it satisfies righteous actions, though I think it is more common as a self congratulatory emotion based on personal victories.  

 

Pride is not a vice unless it distracts us from doing something that benefits the whole, or ourselves.  And sure, sometimes it blinds us to our faults- something that Christianity loves to beat us down with fixing.

 

As far as my translation of self love I think it is more about self worth, and finding that you deserve your share, and to take that stand to get it.

[manitou]

On 9/13/2019 at 10:06 PM, Mskied said:

Im trying to organize my ideas into perfect Wisdom but the demons make it too difficult to do this.  Ive been forced into non-thinking because I can no longer fight them off.  Now my mind has gone silent, as the demons have departed, and I am able to clarify and gather my ideas again, but I fear that they will return once I begin again, so I find myself having to be content with sitting silently.

 

There's a lot of duality here.  In other words, you are seeing demons and looking for God, perhaps.  I think that might be part of the problem.

 

Please consider the possibility that there is no God outside of ourselves.  There are no demons either.  Any gods or demons are constructs of our mind, and our mind is missing the point.  The Intelligence is all One.  The thing that describes this best for me, is when I learned that when a fetus is forming, all cells produced are exactly the same cells.  There is no differentiation when the fetus is forming.  What determines whether a cell becomes a fingernail cell, a blood cell, a lung cell - it all depends on how they line up with each other at the time of the fetus formation!  This is the Intelligence I'm talking about.  It is within everything, both seen and unseen.

 

An enlightened one will not be making judgments of good or bad, angels or demons.  He will realize that it is All One - and that we are the sensory addition to the life it is expressing.  How many times in your life have you considered something that happened 'bad', only to have it turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you?

 

Can you take a little break from your meditations and open your mind to a different scenario where there are no angels or demons?

[Mskied]

Why would I start to force myself to think things that I know are untrue?

[Nungali]

to ... "open your mind to a different scenario " 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Mskied said:

Self love which seems to have been translated into Pride took a big hit with Christianity.  The Greeks found this word as a virtue, and then Rome turned it into a vice.  I see why it borders on vice, well they actually label it Sin, but its not Sin in itself, its what Pride can lead us to do that is sinful.  I think humanity has snubbed this as a vice, because we like to feel good, and it feels good to know we have done well, or look and are good.  We like that spirit, especially when it satisfies righteous actions, though I think it is more common as a self congratulatory emotion based on personal victories.  

 

Pride is not a vice unless it distracts us from doing something that benefits the whole, or ourselves.  And sure, sometimes it blinds us to our faults- something that Christianity loves to beat us down with fixing.

 

As far as my translation of self love I think it is more about self worth, and finding that you deserve your share, and to take that stand to get it.

 

Actually the Greeks themselves saw two types ;

 

 

1.[english] The ancient Greeks divided Philautia into two kinds: There is one that is pure selfish and seeks pleasure, fame, and wealth often leading to narcissism and there is another healthy kind of love we give ourselves. Philautia is essential for any relationship, we can only love others if we truly love ourselves and we can only care for others if we truly care for ourselves .

 

The 'healthy love we give ourselves ' comes from a deep understanding and satisfaction of a fulfilled  (or fulfilling) life where one expresses their  soul and self feely as their work, career and expression of self and spirit and is in a socio-cultural context is  their meaningful contribution and in turn appreciated and supported for it.

 

In short , they are living their ' True Will '  .      This is what brings true and deep happiness  and better relationship between people .

 

 

 

[Mskied]

Now you are setting forth an example of True Will that would be the same for all of us, but you also said that according to Crowley it would be different for all of us, so which do you actually support?

[Nungali]

Just now, Mskied said:

Now you are setting forth an example of True Will that would be the same for all of us,

  

 

Why do you say that ?   

 

I said  " comes from a deep understanding and satisfaction of a fulfilled  (or fulfilling) life where one expresses their  soul and self feely as their work, career and expression of self and spirit " 

 

Why did you assume that each ones expression of self and spirit will be the same as others  ?   You seem confused  about all this again ... although you deny this .

 

You will have to explain first why what I wrote is  seen as   a " True Will that would be the same for all of us"  before your claim of me making two opposing statements is validated .

 

 

Just now, Mskied said:

 

but you also said that according to Crowley it would be different for all of us, so which do you actually support?

 

According to the principles ( not just Crowley - remember I have studied this across the board, and the principles hold true in many cultures and societies across time and location. If you remember , I even offered to show you a point by point comparison with Zoroastrianism .... which was never taken up , )

 

What I actually support is  ( and my whole post above affirms this ) that each person is a unique individual that has a need to express that in their self and spirit and work and how they interact  in a socio cultural context .  It does not mean however that two people cannot have very similar wills (eg in the case of a soldier ) .

 

What IS the same , or similar , for all of us is the result , both in the 'feeling' of the individual and the socio-cultural context ,. Thats the whole reason for  supporting and implementing the system in the first place  - both human individual and collective happiness and fulfilment  - to  actually enjoy life  -  'The Royal Road' . 

 

Which goes back to the observation that so many people who live simply with not much seem a LOT happier  than many westerners who have so much , yet suffer boredom, depression, mental health problems drug abuse and suicide .

 

If you take away these good principles from indigenous / tribal cultures they too start to suffer the same way .

 

But it certainly does NOT mean everyone has the same true will  and 'for the life of me' I cant see how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote  ...         ...    I have been advocating the  opposite all along  .

[Mskied]

Well this is sort of the debatable aspect of Crowley.  The definition of Will, confused with the idea of Spirit.  Will is related to want, and want can mean a lot of things, and when do what thou wilt is the whole of the law, it is easy to interpret that I will do whatever I want, which is what I believe Crowley actually intends but people dispute.  If it isn't to do what I like, then it is to do something that conforms to a standard, and this is where I think your Greek definition comes into play:  that the hope is that when all people find the SPIRIT in common, that all people will fall in line with action that we can all agree is Good.  This is not Crowley.  "There is no grace there is no guilt, this is the law; do what thou wilt"  "Deliver us from the Evil and the Good".  These two phrases would buck the conventional "right" action of things, which is what he wants.  Does he want this because he thinks the standard for right action is too restrictive and needs adjustment?  YES!  Does he hope that a new standard for right action will emerge?  I think so- as his wisdom is all observations about what makes sense in light of Truth.  So his neophyte introduction is to encourage people to break social norms and find what is right action, and as you climb into the cockpit and try, you find your own Wisdom.  You may or may not come to agree with his personal flavor of it, and as that is one aspect of Crowley that I am not familiar enough to comment on, I cannot say if I agree or not- but what holds true is that he advocates YOU to find it for yourself, which can lead us.... anywhere.

 

The Spirit in which we interact, in combination with Good Law and standards, is not Will- it is Law, and it is Spirit, but it is the Spirit that can motivate the Will, and so the Spirit of Crowley is liberty, and not the Spirit of the Greeks as you explained, which, if we all adopted that Spirit, would lead us to acting the same, but with different obligations and duties in society.  He probably feels, as it seems to be how he lived, that if humanity knows they are free, then their Spirit will be of the nature of loving the self and one another.  I don't know what kind of Wisdom he entertained, but I got the impression from the first half of his system that he didn't have a focus for this, but he speculated that it would all come together in the end.  Those that want to be masters will find their slaves, those that want to be slaves will find their masters.  

[Nungali]

And yet again, you did not address what I bought up .You went off on another Crowley rave ,  instead of answering what I asked   (- regarding YOUR misinterpretation of MY post ).

 

 How did I set

5 hours ago, Mskied said:

forth an example of True Will that would be the same for all of us,

  

?

 

 

[Nungali]

Aside from the fact that Crowley himself went to  great lengths to  try and clear up this VERY common confusion between 'True Will' and 'want' . The same as a few posters here also pointed out the difference .  And numerous  informed and practised commentary all over the internet  ( I mean things like thelemic sites  ... not lame arse Christian 'everything not us is Satan sites ')  .

 

I also note ( which adds to your confusion about this ) you are using definitons of 'Will'   ,  not  'True Will' .   For a better understanding see :   (personal )  ' Khvarenah ' .

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#khvarenah

[Apech]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

Aside from the fact that Crowley himself went to  great lengths to  try and clear up this VERY common confusion between 'True Will' and 'want' . The same as a few posters here also pointed out the difference .  And numerous  informed and practised commentary all over the internet  ( I mean things like thelemic sites  ... not lame arse Christian 'everything not us is Satan sites ')  .

 

I also note ( which adds to your confusion about this ) you are using definitons of 'Will'   ,  not  'True Will' .   For a better understanding see :   (personal )  ' Khvarenah ' .

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#khvarenah

 

Purity of heart is to will one thing.

                                                      Soren Keirkegaard.

[Mskied]

Lets take a second look at Thelema.  

 

According to Crowley, Aiwass is either a being from another dimension, an alien, his higher self, his guardian Angel, or, as it says in the book of the Law the minister of a God.  He claimed to have heard it, claimed to have channeled it, and if I know Magick, probably wonders if he didn't just conjure it all up based on his own knowledge.  The fact is he calls this book sacred scripture- so in his mind he is either the God that declares this, or it was given to him by a being from a higher plane, that is a God.  As far as "creator" goes, I don't think Crowley or Aiwass claim to know one, but they do claim that the Universe is the playground of Hadit, and the rest of us, and that this Law means to fight for what you want, and its really that simple.  You can look at things he wrote after he "received" this text, thoughts on what it might mean and how it might work, but the actual BOOK of scripture, unless you consider his writings as well to be holy, says that this is the Law:  Do What Thou Wilt, stamp out those that get in your way, and get your way.

 

Is this a book of lawlessness?  Yes and no.  It is a book where the strong declare the Law, and so the only Law is that the strong get their Will done, and that is as far as any of this needs to be considered.  What Crowley suggests in his after works is how this might work if the strong used his reasoning to get their Will done.  This is just HIS thoughts on what makes sense, and frankly I don't know enough about his Will or logic because I didn't complete my study of Liber Aleph and by the time I got to his Class A documents I lost interest in listening.  I got the message- Do What Thou Wilt, and fight for what you want.  

 

If you don't take these things as scripture, then its just fiction and the musings of a man that wanted to do what he liked because he was proud, confident, and wealthy.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Mskied