An end to the intellect?

[Mskied]

I don't need to explain or justify myself, I do it because I am a nice guy and look for people of understanding that want to share their world with me.  Ive encountered people like Nungali a lot on my journey, and all they do with my kindness is abuse it because they see my willingness to converse as a weakness, and they attack me and belittle me.  Well guess what? Ive been suffering with this encounter with Deity for 20 years and there is no pain you can inflict upon me with your doubts and jealousy that is going to harm me.  I don't need your criticism about what I know to be true, and its not my problem if you cant read what I say and hear my words.  If you don't like what I write then go away, I don't need your input, Im just here to make my observations and look for friends.  Nungali I know I ruffled your feathers when I said you either know what the heptagram is good for or you don't, and while I understand you have researched it and adopted the lessons attributed to it by your masters, that doesn't mean that there isn't more to it that I know, or that I am not my own kind of master of it.  People seem to think that if its written in a book then it must be fact, and while that is not quite a mistake, it is certainly a mistake to think that people communicating online or in person do not know what they are talking about.  No, I am not trained by a Master, and yes, I have researched this to a degree to have similar encounters with the knowledge that others have presented, but I do not consider myself their disciple and I don't have to.  I am my own person with my own lens and my own method, just as they are, and they may or may not have learned from experience as I have, more than likely it is just research and imagination.  This does not make me less valid, and I tire of people like you that think it does.  When I encounter people like you I wish to God I could throw you into what Ive been thrown into, just to shut them up.  Part of me would want to laugh and poke fun at all your observations the way you and others do to me, but the real me is the one that leaves messages like this behind, so that when it does happen, you have a compassionate ear.

[Desmonddf]

On 26/08/2019 at 2:15 AM, Mskied said:

Law of Kindness,

 

This is one of the laws (one of the Essences people have), but not the Law itself. There are many Essences, and the thing is, if your Essence is Kindness, then you'll never find any obstacles for it.

 

The thing about the Law is that no two people who are following it will ever find themselves into conflict. There are Wills related to governance, to power, to misery, to fortune, to healing, to change, to ordenance... all kinds of wills. That's why "the slaves will serve" works both for those who are born with the Will to be slaves and for those who do not follow their Will.

 

People born with the Will to be slaves will always be slaves as long as they follow their Will - and they will have good lives, full of contentment and well-being. They will find the right Master at the right time (for instance, someone with the Will of Ownership) and that Master will make them have lives which will be better compared to those of any free man. If they do not follow their Will, however, their lives will be miserable and full of conflict (I've seen cases of this).

 

If you ever find yourself in situations of conflict due to your Law of Kindness, then that's not your Will and you're following a path based on your desires - the desire not to have conflict, to live in a world of Will and Wisdom, and so on.

 

This is a form of derivance from the path. Crowley identified Blavatsky as someone who had fallen on it. Unfortunatelly I cannot find the quote where he talks about it in detail, but here are some other quotes which may help:

 

Quote

Charity and love are here used in their technical sense, Agapé. “Love is the law, love under will.” Both Agapé and Thelema (“will”) add to 93, which identifies them qabalistically. This love is not a sloppy feeling of maudlin sentimental kindness. The majority of people of the Christian Science, Theosophical, New Thought type, think that a lot of flabby thoughts, sending out streams of love in the Six Quarters, and so on, will help them. It won’t. Love is a pure flame, as swift and deadly as the lightning. This is the kind of love that the Student needs.” -“The Voice of the Silence”

 

 

Quote

 

“In fact, one who is helping humanity is constantly in need of a wash and brush-up from time to time. There is nothing quite so contaminating as humanity, especially Theosophists, as Mme. Blavatsky herself discovered.” -“The Voice of the Silence

 

 

 

Quote

 

“‘Theosophist.’  A person who talks about Yoga, and does no work.” -Glossary in Liber ABA, “Part 1: Mysticism”

 

 

 

 

On 26/08/2019 at 2:15 AM, Mskied said:

Obviously children will be lawless until they find a reason to be lawful, but in the rearing of that child we can either be tolerant and Wise and kind in our instruction and illustration of why Law is Good,

 

This is in contradiction to Crowley's ideas on how to rise children. They're seen as beings who have more than enough Kingship on their own, not lawless little beings to be taught. Children must be directed to find their own Kingship, not on how to follow a set of rules of kindness.

 

 

 

[Mskied]

When I was talking about raising children and Law I was talking about other material laws and rules, I didn't make that clear.  

 

You've made me consider my idea that kindness is not the natural truth.  The kindness that I am referring to is muted and not passionate like children like to be.  I also don't see children responding well to being muted, but I think that in order to get them to focus we need to practice kindness with Wisdom to instruct them.  In retrospect I do not think that my idea will fly anymore, because people don't want muted lives.  But they also don't want anger and violence.  I need to work on this theory a little better I guess, thank you for the pointers.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Mskied

[Earl Grey]

Don't mind Nungali, he's a kook, but he's a good chap and has had a go in poking fun at me too, and I like him still. 

 

What is important to understand that experience and analysis criteria are two separate things. You are coming from a an experiential approach that is popular with New Agers and self-appointed adepts (some even self-appointed masters), whereas he comes from both experience and analysis with his training in teachings that include Crowley's work. 

 

I personally believe experience is very subjective, yet there are commonalities. Analysis criteria, however, is where one uses a common frame of reference so that the consistency allows people to make sense of what they are looking at. What this means is that there's a framework that one gets usually from formal study or having an actual practice--e.g. you understand the rules of football because you played on a team with others who agree to the same rules and goals versus someone who picked up the ball and decided to make things up as they went along, e.g. Calvinball. 

 

 

So he is coming as somewhat of a playful indirect teacher because he sees you use the word adept that you've taken to characterize yourself and your experience and he gives you the lowdown from his own studies and the analytical criteria. 

 

This is common on the forum where you have people who use experience to define esoteric practices, which is great because there is overlap, but some people get so caught up in sensations and experiences that they lose themselves in it rather than understand them as signage on a highway indicating where you are going and how far you are on your journey. You will also have people with formal training and systems like him (and me as you can see in the sidebar).

 

Long story short, don't get yourself too worked up. I get worked up from time to time here and am weaning myself on to being here no more than 2-3 days out of the week. I also mean not to get worked up with your own experience because some people may see you as thinking highly of yourself and decide to play with you for laughs rather than viewing you as a humble seeker and being nurturing as their way of supporting you. Both are fine because you'll learn either way if you're open to it. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Mskied]

Thanks and like I said, I never used the word Adept, but I will never say I wasn't initiated.  Ive also said in the posts he refers to that I really don't know much about any system, or didn't, until I chose to investigate it AFTER the fact of initiation.  The thing about initiation is that there is a coven that can do it, and it can be done individually, and that really, almost anyone that has begun to study can call themselves an initiate, so I don't think he is within rights to poke at me for saying hey, I experienced these things and relate to them from a certain point of view that is described by people of a certain method.  I get that I like to line things up neatly and declare them, and why shouldn't I be able to?  All of this is subjective, really, and none of it seems to be a permanent bench to sit on, what with climbing and descending grades and ideas, so for them to say that my conjecture isn't a sign of knowledge is sort of foolish as well.  

 

I get that a system is organized and orderly and I know that, being someone of the tantric or dramatic/experiential model I lack that, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen what I have seen, and just because he hasn't seen it, doesn't mean I haven't.  I do feel like I pulled the trigger a little fast but that's because Ive been sorely accused of not knowing what I am talking about, and when it comes to referencing other systems, I suppose that is a valid argument, though I am just looking to corelate my own experiences with what is written, and have a conversation about those things.  Frankly I don't see anything wrong with it but "by the book" types do, and that is their loss, because what I bring is fire and creativity and genuine words of description rather than applying someone elses description to what I am looking to know.  Anyway it doesn't really matter, as none of this holds together under deep analysis.  By none of this, I mean that you cannot cover all bases, and really its difficult for two people to unite under a co-operative understanding, especially with the vast contributions to this field of study.

 

Consider me to be like this:  imagine if none of these books had been written, and I was the first person to experience these things and am trying to define what I know and share it.  That is me, and my words are original, and I recognize that I work at a disadvantage, but that cannot be avoided.  Take it or leave it, but please don't put words in my mouth.  My experiences are genuine, and Im sure yours are too, and you don't hear me naysaying that what you have witnessed is not true.

[Earl Grey]

Well, the ultimate test of anyone's skill and understanding is applying it. For martial skills, how can one demonstrate not just their forms, but their ability to defend themselves or how long can they stand in Zhan Zhuang with good posture? Do they have rooting or grounding, have they developed linking? For healing, are they just making someone feel warm or can you see subtle changes like lower blood pressure or are they even able to fa qi and make the patient feel electricity? For magical practice, this is where it becomes hard to measure criteria for whether something works or not, but I've heard stories of people doing rituals properly and candles becoming like blowtorches to indicate yes, someone was there with the adept and it made the candles react. 

 

Due to the nature of this forum, there are people who find their experience and understanding reinforced online through discussions here and might make them able to see who has and doesn't have skill or understanding satisfactory to their standards, but again, this means nothing. I have people here tell me all sorts of things about my martial skill but they don't know about my fight history or my forms, and I'm happy with letting people think that because my teachers and my opponents tell very different stories to characterize that skill, which likewise, if you are confident in what you have, you won't mind too much what others say. 

 

Good luck here!

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

This is one of the laws (one of the Essences people have), but not the Law itself. There are many Essences, and the thing is, if your Essence is Kindness, then you'll never find any obstacles for it.

 

The thing about the Law is that no two people who are following it will ever find themselves into conflict. There are Wills related to governance, to power, to misery, to fortune, to healing, to change, to ordenance... all kinds of wills. That's why "the slaves will serve" works both for those who are born with the Will to be slaves and for those who do not follow their Will.

 

People born with the Will to be slaves will always be slaves as long as they follow their Will - and they will have good lives, full of contentment and well-being. They will find the right Master at the right time (for instance, someone with the Will of Ownership) and that Master will make them have lives which will be better compared to those of any free man. If they do not follow their Will, however, their lives will be miserable and full of conflict (I've seen cases of this).

 

I am reminded of the 'infamous Marcello Motta , a strong self (a)vowed Thelemite.  Some people went to visit him in his swish house in .... ( somewhere in Sth America )  and where shocked to see a Thelemite had 2 servants . They thought this went against the concept of Thelema  and they asked him how he could have them . Motta explained  that yes he had two servants,, he needed help and they needed work, so he took them on , housed them and prayed them  a small wage . He also offered them a chance to 'better themselves socially', one accepted and was then currently enrolled in  a collage to study and get qualifications for a job he really wanted to do, with much better pay  and a prosperous future. Motta helped by paying for the tuition  and arranging his 'shifts' so he could attend the courses. He said he  made the same offer to the other servant , but he politely refused and said he was much happier without responsibilities , doing simple work and having his   accommodation and food supplied. He was very happy with that  so that was the arrangement they kept .

 

of course, substituting 'servant'  with 'slave' and vica versa might trigger some people, its a very loaded term .

 

16 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

If you ever find yourself in situations of conflict due to your Law of Kindness, then that's not your Will and you're following a path based on your desires - the desire not to have conflict, to live in a world of Will and Wisdom, and so on.

 

This is a form of derivance from the path. Crowley identified Blavatsky as someone who had fallen on it. Unfortunatelly I cannot find the quote where he talks about it in detail, but here are some other quotes which may help:

 

 

 

We had a rare document written by him on the subject, hard to find .  I liked the way he went for parents in it .  I  am often abhorred  due to my observations on how  man yparents treat children , they dont even seem to understand them.  I see it casually in public and have witnessed it in relationship with  single mothers or friends that are parents.

 

He advocated the parent be constantly  vigilant in detecting interests the child had and allowed to explore and develop them . He also  noted how people and children are of different types , regarding children ; " Build not a pen for a shark or a pool for a goat .

 

( Hmmm , I am year of the goat ... and pretty goaty  

 

 

- just ask  Mskied      

 

... and every time I got enthused about something , parents .... " No no no, that won;t work / you cant do that / thats silly / life isnt like that .  Pfft !   Well,  I showed 'em     ) 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Mskied said:

I don't need to explain or justify myself, I do it because I am a nice guy and look for people of understanding that want to share their world with me.  Ive encountered people like Nungali a lot on my journey, and all they do with my kindness is abuse it because they see my willingness to converse as a weakness, and they attack me and belittle me.  Well guess what? Ive been suffering with this encounter with Deity for 20 years and there is no pain you can inflict upon me with your doubts and jealousy that is going to harm me.  I don't need your criticism about what I know to be true, and its not my problem if you cant read what I say and hear my words.  If you don't like what I write then go away, I don't need your input, Im just here to make my observations and look for friends.  Nungali I know I ruffled your feathers when I said you either know what the heptagram is good for or you don't, and while I understand you have researched it and adopted the lessons attributed to it by your masters, that doesn't mean that there isn't more to it that I know, or that I am not my own kind of master of it.  People seem to think that if its written in a book then it must be fact, and while that is not quite a mistake, it is certainly a mistake to think that people communicating online or in person do not know what they are talking about.  No, I am not trained by a Master, and yes, I have researched this to a degree to have similar encounters with the knowledge that others have presented, but I do not consider myself their disciple and I don't have to.  I am my own person with my own lens and my own method, just as they are, and they may or may not have learned from experience as I have, more than likely it is just research and imagination.  This does not make me less valid, and I tire of people like you that think it does.  When I encounter people like you I wish to God I could throw you into what Ive been thrown into, just to shut them up.  Part of me would want to laugh and poke fun at all your observations the way you and others do to me, but the real me is the one that leaves messages like this behind, so that when it does happen, you have a compassionate ear.

 

Oh  ...   poor bubba .  !     Nungali this ... Nungali that .  

 

You might be right , maybe I should have expressed it different ?

 

Like this ;

 

" You have failed to cross the Abyss and is now dealing with a fractured ego. ....You haven't found your own Will, and have been letting the Will of others possess you. That's being a slave under the kingship of others. ....That's why it is said that, once you fall into the Abyss and becomes an Abyss Baby you've lost your chance in this life. ....... and would, indeed, turn you insane.... you'll become passive and inactive. A pawn made of flesh, bones and empty space on your head. Devoid of Soul, Will, Spirit. " 

 

Thats a lot nicer eh ?

 

[Nungali]

v

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Don't mind Nungali, he's a kook, but he's a good chap and has had a go in poking fun at me too, and I like him still. 

 

Well, you see, I just listed my other qualifications  and when I posted them .....  blink !    a  'v '

 

Not  to be revealed I guess .    Here and there I have written about it . The observant could put it together .

 

In brief ;  over 40 years studying cultural anthropology ( starting at Sydney Uni )  in chair and field ( that is text book and real experience  , specialising in initiation traditions and teachings across all cultures and times .  Not only have I achieved levels of western initiation, in several systems, I also  developed a local body,  was a chartered initiator ( and that took years of study and examinations, some requiring a perfect score) , secretary for Australia, worked for the inspector (to make sure all rights and equipment where being used and done properly ) and was assistant to International HG Initiation Secretary   for OTO .

 

Was a Spiritual Assembly  Chairperson for the Bahai's of Australia .    Have Shamanic teachers in the oldest extant culture in the world  .

 

Blah blah blah ... and I will leave out the rest ... other wise ... < blink >   .... ' v '     ( damn cursor jump ! )

 

... but thanks for your support  

 

Oh!   and of course I studied Exo-psychology and am a RAW buff 

 

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

What is important to understand that experience and analysis criteria are two separate things. You are coming from a an experiential approach that is popular with New Agers and self-appointed adepts (some even self-appointed masters), whereas he comes from both experience and analysis with his training in teachings that include Crowley's work. 

 

You would not believe how many self- navigators I have seen on the rocks !  Its a new age thing .

 

" No one is gonna tell me what to do !  I am gonna do it myself .

 

Okay then ... < rips up the map >  off you go out to the burning sands .

 

NOT that people WITH the map dont get lost .... all srts of things can happen .

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I personally believe experience is very subjective, yet there are commonalities. Analysis criteria, however, is where one uses a common frame of reference so that the consistency allows people to make sense of what they are looking at. What this means is that there's a framework that one gets usually from formal study or having an actual practice--e.g. you understand the rules of football because you played on a team with others who agree to the same rules and goals versus someone who picked up the ball and decided to make things up as they went along,

 

Very Good !  

 

Here is where a LOT fail ....  ; 'the first paradox of philosophy '   ;    in order to gain the freedom to do your will you must submit voluntarily to discipline and organisation.    I taught this to year 10 at the Steiner School .... they rebelled    Then I explained it ; well you want to be a great soccer player or  gymnast, what do you do ?   Then they instantly got it .

 

Organisation ? Discipline  ?    Thats heavy man

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

 

 

 

e.g. Calvinball. 

 

 

Excellent  .   You kew I was a C & H fan didnt you !     Now lets translate that to  magical groups     and secret societies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

So he is coming as somewhat of a playful indirect teacher because he sees you use the word adept that you've taken to characterize yourself and your experience and he gives you the lowdown from his own studies and the analytical criteria.

 

It was more his bastardisation of  the Law of Thelema , his misrepresentation and confusion  and throw ng the Satan tag around ;

' Love is the Law of Satan '    

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

This is common on the forum where you have people who use experience to define esoteric practices, which is great because there is overlap, but some people get so caught up in sensations and experiences that they lose themselves in it rather than understand them as signage on a highway indicating where you are going and how far you are on your journey. You will also have people with formal training and systems like him (and me as you can see in the sidebar).

 

Long story short, don't get yourself too worked up. I get worked up from time to time here and am weaning myself on to being here no more than 2-3 days out of the week. I also mean not to get worked up with your own experience because some people may see you as thinking highly of yourself and decide to play with you for laughs rather than viewing you as a humble seeker and being nurturing as their way of supporting you. Both are fine because you'll learn either way if you're open to it. 

 

 

I learnt a LOT from gettin my own arse kicked !     and I'm not JUST talking martial arts here .

 

Thing is , most are floundering when it comes to Crowley ... unless you know the real instructional material     and have experienced it .  But like martial arts technique the best way to learn is 3 fold ; ' having it done to you ' , 'doing it to someone else' and watching someone do it to someone else   ( but ... not all can be  a  'Sensai' or initiator . )

 

 

..... oh yeah , and .....

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

Thanks and like I said, I never used the word Adept,

 

Bullshit !

 

Count 'em  how many times you used it  ; 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

butt I will never say I wasn't initiated.  Ive also said in the posts he refers to that I really don't know much about any system, or didn't, until I chose to investigate it AFTER the fact of initiation.  The thing about initiation is that there is a coven that can do it, and it can be done individually, and that really, almost anyone that has begun to study can call themselves an initiate, so I don't think he is within rights to poke at me for saying hey, I experienced these things and relate to them from a certain point of view that is described by people of a certain method.  I get that I like to line things up neatly and declare them, and why shouldn't I be able to?  All of this is subjective, really, and none of it seems to be a permanent bench to sit on, what with climbing and descending grades and ideas, so for them to say that my conjecture isn't a sign of knowledge is sort of foolish as well.  

 

That wasnt it at all - strawman !   I specifically said what it was .  

 

We ALL go thru our initiations one way or another and real initiation is not achieved by title certificate or ceremony, its experimental, either after the ceremony or before it - the ceremony and instruction gives context to life experiences either before or after them .

 

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

I get that a system is organized and orderly and I know that, being someone of the tantric or dramatic/experiential model I lack that, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen what I have seen, and just because he hasn't seen it, doesn't mean I haven't.  I do feel like I pulled the trigger a little fast but that's because Ive been sorely accused of not knowing what I am talking about, and when it comes to referencing other systems, I suppose that is a valid argument, though I am just looking to corelate my own experiences with what is written, and have a conversation about those things.  Frankly I don't see anything wrong with it but "by the book" types do, and that is their loss, because what I bring is fire and creativity and genuine words of description rather than applying someone elses description to what I am looking to know.  Anyway it doesn't really matter, as none of this holds together under deep analysis.  By none of this, I mean that you cannot cover all bases, and really its difficult for two people to unite under a co-operative understanding, especially with the vast contributions to this field of study.

 

Consider me to be like this:  imagine if none of these books had been written, and I was the first person to experience these things and am trying to define what I know and share it.  That is me, and my words are original, and I recognize that I work at a disadvantage, but that cannot be avoided.  Take it or leave it, but please don't put words in my mouth.  My experiences are genuine, and Im sure yours are too, and you don't hear me naysaying that what you have witnessed is not true.

 

 

It is not your experience we are saying is not true, it is your interpretation of systems that is at fault ,

 

By making this claim,  that you are being picked on because of that is a strawman , its also its typical and telling  in the 'field' .

[Mskied]

What you are doing is taking my reference to a system and my explanation and accusing me of saying something I didn't say.  If you read my ENTIRE post you will see that I freely admit not to have been a disciple of any system, and experienced something on my own and navigated it, on my own, and share what I say about it, and reference it to what is written.  Again, I never used the word Adept, and initiation doesn't have to mean I AM INITIATED INTO ___________ system and am Master of said system!  Since you claim to be so versed in these things, you should know that they all have a common thread that motivated their conception, and that not all systems agree on what to find.  

 

It may be that I am an Abyss baby, I don't know.  I think its the most laughable part of the whole thing to declare that someone doesn't know their True Will.  How the Hell do you know?  How the Hell does anyone know other than the person that stops and says "This is my Will".  Until you've been devoured by the Godhead and fought the Demon Serpent for 20 years, don't tell me what my Will is, because having undergone this, my Will should probably be to find the red button that sets off the nukes and damn this whole place!  This is NOT a pretty journey, its bloody, and as any beaten prisoner, you either LOSE your Will, or you FIGHT your oppressors.  I don't think there is any way to cross the Abyss into some golden era of life- its submit and die and lick your wounds, whimpering about how unjust this all was and why people need to be nicer.  That, or run around like an angry madman.

[Mskied]

I guess this brings me back to our first encounter:  you either know or you don't.

[Earl Grey]

34 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Well, you see, I just listed my other qualifications  and when I posted them .....  blink !    a  'v '

 

Not  to be revealed I guess .    Here and there I have written about it . The observant could put it together .

 

In brief ;  over 40 years studying cultural anthropology ( starting at Sydney Uni )  in chair and field ( that is text book and real experience  , specialising in initiation traditions and teachings across all cultures and times .  Not only have I achieved levels of western initiation, in several systems, I also  developed a local body,  was a chartered initiator ( and that took years of study and examinations, some requiring a perfect score) , secretary for Australia, worked for the inspector (to make sure all rights and equipment where being used and done properly ) and was assistant to International HG Initiation Secretary   for OTO .

 

Was a Spiritual Assembly  Chairperson for the Bahai's of Australia .    Have Shamanic teachers in the oldest extant culture in the world  .

 

Blah blah blah ... and I will leave out the rest ... other wise ... < blink >   .... ' v '     ( damn cursor jump ! )

 

... but thanks for your support  

 

Oh!   and of course I studied Exo-psychology and am a RAW buff 

 

There's no doubt you are well-learned, especially in OTO, old chap. Those who know are the ones best able to laugh at themselves as much as they laugh at others, and you have that jovial bellows laugh that can bring even the most stoic-faced a smirk. 

 

36 minutes ago, Nungali said:

You would not believe how many self- navigators I have seen on the rocks !  Its a new age thing .

 

" No one is gonna tell me what to do !  I am gonna do it myself .

 

Okay then ... < rips up the map >  off you go out to the burning sands .

 

NOT that people WITH the map dont get lost .... all srts of things can happen .

 

This is something I've been vocal about on this forum a lot more recently. The self-initiated who think they know Zhan Zhuang from LKC's book or a YouTube video, think they know neidan from a few posts here, or those who believe they are the next messiah after a Reiki attunement on Skype that made them a master in a weekend. Even a simple question such as testing one's skill is met with either ridicule or name-calling, and if there is no skill to demonstrate, they call us who are observing negative, narrow-minded, or unable to see the subtleties that they can because they are awakened and we are caught up in old paradigms. Those old paradigms exist because they worked, mind you...Agrippa, anyone? Sheesh.

 

40 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Very Good !  

 

Here is where a LOT fail ....  ; 'the first paradox of philosophy '   ;    in order to gain the freedom to do your will you must submit voluntarily to discipline and organisation.    I taught this to year 10 at the Steiner School .... they rebelled    Then I explained it ; well you want to be a great soccer player or  gymnast, what do you do ?   Then they instantly got it .

 

Organisation ? Discipline  ?    Thats heavy man

 

Yes, how does one have self-discipline without having the criteria to measure their discipline against? It's like a slob being told to be clean and he insists he's clean because that's his standard of cleanliness: not looking or smelling ungodly even if he's wearing the same shirt for two weeks now and argues that it still smells okay and doesn't look dirty because it's a dark color. 

 

42 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Excellent  .   You kew I was a C & H fan didnt you !     Now lets translate that to  magical groups     and secret societies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I read once that Crowley and his order were pretty tongue-in-cheek, and for all that "Beast" talk, he was an outright dandy who loved to press people's buttons. Used to love his stuff, but like most western occultism and hermetic studies, it's easier when a teacher is around because I alone never would have understood a god damned thing even when reading again and again. 

 

Sometimes I find a lot of these societies are a lot like these guys too: 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Nungali said:

It was more his bastardisation of  the Law of Thelema , his misrepresentation and confusion  and throw ng the Satan tag around ;

' Love is the Law of Satan '    

 

Point taken and clarified. I haven't read most of his posts, honestly. He's a new member and quite gregarious, I only saw his introductory post and figured he has his own growing pains to go through still. 

 

48 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I learnt a LOT from gettin my own arse kicked !     and I'm not JUST talking martial arts here .

 

Thing is , most are floundering when it comes to Crowley ... unless you know the real instructional material     and have experienced it .  But like martial arts technique the best way to learn is 3 fold ; ' having it done to you ' , 'doing it to someone else' and watching someone do it to someone else   ( but ... not all can be  a  'Sensai' or initiator . )

 

I learned humility from verbal and physical ass kickings. When I was on my way to university and I thought I was tough shit, I was dressed down and lectured by a 15 year-old in front of my friends, who at the time was far more mature and well-reasoned rhetoric on the plane from Beijing to Manila. 

 

Yes, Crowley and his teachings is a huge field of study in of itself. There are criticisms from old school students of Agrippa and John Dee's writings, but I can't deny the massive influence Crowley had on the occult world and popular culture. 

 

Here's a story Alan Moore wrote which was told by Crowley in the comic Promethea: 

 

A man is on a train and sees another man with a box inside. He asks the man with the box what's inside, and he responds that it's a mongoose, because his brother is afraid of snakes in his house. The man asks if the box man is afraid of the snakes in his brother's house, and he says no, because the brother is delusional and the snakes are imaginary. The first man then asks why the box man has a mongoose for imaginary snakes. The box man says he isn't worried, because inside the box is an imaginary mongoose. 

[Nungali]

• He was against 'spiritual pride' and the  'sanctimonious smirk' and said the best weapon we have against these is a sense of humour, especially about the self .

Ah, the old Mongoose story  ( and the magic tiger repelling rock  .... they work GREAT in Australia .     )

 

My fav story is about the guy that stole his stuff. He trusted him but in the morning -  ripped off !  He said he could understand  someone stealing the  valuables,   the rituals and the operational charter being stolen , but , by God man ! What sort of chap steals your best silk underpants !   

 

Just for fun I typed in  '   Aleister Crowley and the case of the stolen underpants '     in the google search box  and got ;

 

'

 

Ahhh ... the internet , where anything you can think of   already exists    

 

- By the way,  I dont usually rave about AC nowadays .... it was just all that  Love is the  Law  .... of Satan . .. and the rest , that set me off.

 

And now ...  some ducks

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Nungali

[Earl Grey]

58 minutes ago, Nungali said:

• He was against 'spiritual pride' and the  'sanctimonious smirk' and said the best weapon we have against these is a sense of humour, especially about the self .

Ah, the old Mongoose story  ( and the magic tiger repelling rock  .... they work GREAT in Australia .     )

 

My fav story is about the guy that stole his stuff. He trusted him but in the morning -  ripped off !  He said he could understand  someone stealing the  valuables,   the rituals and the operational charter being stolen , but , by God man ! What sort of chap steals your best silk underpants !   

 

Just for fun I typed in  '   Aleister Crowley and the case of the stolen underpants '     in the google search box  and got ;

 

'

 

Ahhh ... the internet , where anything you can think of   already exists    

 

- By the way,  I dont usually rave about AC nowadays .... it was just all that  Love is the  Law  .... of Satan . .. and the rest , that set me off.

 

And now ...  some ducks

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

Who gives a duck? 

 

 

[Desmonddf]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

of course, substituting 'servant'  with 'slave' and vica versa might trigger some people, its a very loaded term .

 

Tricky stuff indeed, but what part of Crowley isn't, haha?

 

20 hours ago, Mskied said:

In retrospect I do not think that my idea will fly anymore, because people don't want muted lives.  But they also don't want anger and violence.  I need to work on this theory a little better I guess, thank you for the pointers.

 

It has been my pleasure. Thank you for listening and accepting my point of view

 

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

He advocated the parent be constantly  vigilant in detecting interests the child had and allowed to explore and develop them

 

Perfection, I'd say. Even if Crowley himself didn't manage to put that into practice, haha. Well, he was a good instrument for receiving stuff, not necessarialy experiencing them. As long as I remember he never even managed to achieve conversation with his SGA. So that's that.

[Desmonddf]

3 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

or those who believe they are the next messiah after a Reiki attunement on Skype that made them a master in a weekend.

 

Oh god, that's so true. I've encountered a lot of those recently. As a Reiki master who is every day discovering how far I am from Reiki, that's just... *burries his head into the sand*

 

 

[Earl Grey]

46 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Oh god, that's so true. I've encountered a lot of those recently. As a Reiki master who is every day discovering how far I am from Reiki, that's just... *burries his head into the sand*

 

 

 

Pleased to meet you fellow practitioner. I got to level 3 two years after my level 2 and think somewhere along the lines of 10-20 or even 40 years is how long I need before I can call myself that, but even then I'm healing without even calling it Reiki anymore at times. Loved your post on the Reiki thread, by the way. 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Mskied said:

What you are doing is taking my reference to a system and my explanation and accusing me of saying something I didn't say.  If you read my ENTIRE post you will see that I freely admit not to have been a disciple of any system, and experienced something on my own and navigated it, on my own, and share what I say about it, and reference it to what is written.  Again, I never used the word Adept, and initiation doesn't have to mean I AM INITIATED INTO ___________ system and am Master of said system!  Since you claim to be so versed in these things, you should know that they all have a common thread that motivated their conception, and that not all systems agree on what to find.  

 

See below regarding the bolded bit .

 

And again , I never said you never had an initiation experience , your problem is actually how you borrow into systems you know little about ( even though you think you do ) to try and navigate though your  experience .  It has not worked and thats obvious by what YOU wrote about  it .

 

22 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

It may be that I am an Abyss baby, I don't know.  I think its the most laughable part of the whole thing to declare that someone doesn't know their True Will.  How the Hell do you know? 

 

 

You are such a fuckin tripper dude !  Where did I  say  you do not know your True Will ?  More stawman  'defence'  .

 

22 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

How the Hell does anyone know other than the person that stops and says "This is my Will". 

 

They dont .... that is also a 'great miss'  .   One can help another find it , if they know how, but that is only suggestion and assistance .

 

" We neither know nor care what your Will is . "      The correrct process is to show the  techniques and things which might help reveal it to you  . No one can tell you what it is, as they have no right to, that is an infraction of the Law .... and I point out that I never suggested to you at all  what your true Will, is, should be or might be .

 

More strawman defence !

 

22 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

 

Until you've been devoured by the Godhead and fought the Demon Serpent for 20 years, don't tell me what my Will is, because having undergone this, my Will should probably be to find the red button that sets off the nukes and damn this whole place!  This is NOT a pretty journey, its bloody, and as any beaten prisoner, you either LOSE your Will, or you FIGHT your oppressors.

 

OI !   Now YOU are telling me  ! 

 

Can you see what you are doing here?     It need not be as you are describing .

 

Its like you tried to swim in the ocean and never learnt  ... you fell in and nearly drowned ... are still drowning  .. and battling and feeling devoured and tortured and need to fight your way to sure .

 

You are saying swimming is terrible , it drags you down, water gets up your nose, you splutter you cant breath ....

 

But whats the point , at least 2 other posters here have tried other analogies ... and you are still  insisting ....

 

 

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Mskied said:

  I don't think there is any way to cross the Abyss into some golden era of life- its submit and die and lick your wounds, whimpering about how unjust this all was and why people need to be nicer.  That, or run around like an angry madman.

 

Well, you can think whatever you like .

 

But really , I hope your suffering does end  and you eventually do find that  'solace' 

 

 ...By the Sign of Light ☩ appear Thou glorious upon the throne of the Sun. Make open the path of creation and of intelligence between us and our minds. Enlighten our understanding. Encourage our hearts. Let thy light crystallize itself in our blood, fulfilling us of Resurrection.

 

.
☩ The LORD enlighten your minds and comfort your hearts and sustain your bodies.
☩ The LORD bring you to the accomplishment of your true Wills, the Great Work, the Summum Bonum, True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness.

[Mskied]

This post keeps getting funnier.  

Edited August 29, 2019 by Mskied

[Nungali]

What you just wrote ;     a post    is what you just did in that box up there  ^ . You made a post.

 

We cant tell if it is getting funnier as we  cannot see the changes you made to it in editing that made it funnier . .... to you .

 

But good for you , amusing yourself like that .

 

But who knows , maybe you meant  something entirely different  and you are yet again confused about 'what is what ' ?

 

 

A post is , as described above .

 

A thread is a series of posts , supposedly staying on the one subject ...(this one ' an end to the intellect '  ... yes you certainly HAVE continually stayed on that subject and continued to the point where it looks like you have  got no intellect left  whatsoever  ) . A collection of threads on a similar subjects and by category is called a forum and a collection of forums is called an internet discussion     site  .  

 

 

 

 

 

[Mskied]

Nungali… I know you wont understand this, but you are a pseudo spiritual bully and Im not going to be baited into fighting with you over this type of thing, I don't need to prove to myself that I am strong or clever.  Its ok, I predicted that this type of thing would follow earlier in this thread.  

 

People like you aren't meant to understand people like me

Edited August 29, 2019 by Mskied

[ilumairen]

46 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Nungali… I know you wont understand this, but you are a pseudo spiritual bully and Im not going to be baited into fighting with you over this type of thing, I don't need to prove to myself that I am strong or clever.  Its ok, I predicted that this type of thing would follow earlier in this thread.  

 

People like you aren't meant to understand people like me

 

Hi Maskied, our friend Ningali has his ways, and is also both well informed and experienced in what he shares. He has actually helped me out in a situation much like what he likened to drowning in the ocean - where one stops fighting and struggling and suddenly finds themselves floating.

 

May I ask where, and how, this fight or flight arises? What is being protected, and why?

[Earl Grey]

Nungali is a good chap as I said and very knowledgable. He is pressing your buttons but means no ill will. If you consider the intention and what he's trying to impart you can learn a lot if you remain open. He is by no means a bully but a friendly man who is akin to a trickster teacher.