Nungali Posted September 28, 2019 4 hours ago, Integrated said: Ah yeah, well that is the game that is played isn't it? I'd love to just relate as @ilumairen pointed out, but we both know it won't happen. @Nungali need to save face to preserve his online persona, and I just don't give a shit. Chiefly because I've met too many like him, and don't really feel like being more respectful than I have to. Which means that I don't have to show much respect at all, since this forum is pretty lax on moderation. Dude ! What makes you think I have any 'face' left ? Obviously I dont give a shit about that either . No, its something different going on here ( see below ) Regarding moderation, here is a little story ; Many people here consider themselves 'advanced' or enlightened' ... to some degree . Have you met 'Wellsie' ... he's a good sort . One time we where 'bantering' and other posters got shocked, offended , etc . I made some juvinile silly and stupid comment about the size of his dick . Some peeps where outraged , some demanded an apology, so I wrote one out and posted it ; I a sorry , sincerely , I am really sorry ... seriously ... I am sorry ... ... I am sorry Wellsies dick is so small ... it must be terrible for him . - some where outraged .. Wellsie? He laughed . ... there ya go ! Other enlightened ones would be outraged . But people see all these things differently . We had a guy here (briefly ) that did Iado . Good, I wanted to talk to him, we did a bit, But then this other side surfaced . He seemed to think he was very advanced and wrote how he would do this thing to people where they where tricked or something and that exposed them as some inferior type, and he then laughed at that, and said how good he was at it , as he was advanced and most other people where not . Fair enough , but I decided to try it on him, to see how he took his own medicine . Well, he fitted and vomited. Could not believe someone here on a daoist forum would insult him that way ... he left in an outraged huff . Some members where outraged at me, saying I had driven off a new good member ( probably they never read all the posts ? HMMMMMM ? ) others knew exactly the dynamic played out . Same here ... some see the shadow play others dont . Whatever . Obviously I dont mind mud play at all .. we used to have this thing called 'the pit ', 'questionable discussions' would be thrown down there where people could do as they will . Ahhh ... the pit ... Bring back the pit ! 4 hours ago, Integrated said: I mean if there was a real bridge over this chasm, I'd be one of the first ones lining up to cross. But as far as I know there isn't, and most people telling otherwise have an agenda of control and domination. Of course there is . You seem knowledgeable on a range of subjects that interest me and others here . If you are reasonable, can support what you say with reference to text, experience, good observation, etc . If you can answer a question, if you dont engage in silly tactics regarding the way the discussion or debate goes (like the ones pointed out here by me and Earl ( eg) . Try it . you might be surprised . But if anyone starts acting like a real dick ... well ...... 4 hours ago, Integrated said: Would love if it where not so, but many of us have participated enough in the real world, to know how things are. If one reads say Jung, the picture doesn't become any prettier either, we are doomed to repeat this. The best we can hope for is saving ourselves as best we can, and maybe just maybe humanity will figure things out a few thousand years down the line. Thats if humanity lasts that long . 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, ilumairen said: I wonder, if at some point, we humans (as a whole and generally speaking) will move beyond attributing to others what we do not know, and start responding to each other (as in the actual person we're supposedly conversing with) instead of our assumptions and caricatures... While it's mildly interesting to watch oneself or others dance with mirrors, true connection seems lacking when these scenarios play out, and it reminds me of what once used to bring me great angst - wondering if anyone ever actually saw anyone else... To be entirely honest, while the angst has let up quite a bit over the years, I'm finding there is still irritation when this behavior becomes apparent in one claiming a high horse... pssst you're now playing in the dirt too.. I am wondering how all this would have played out from the beginning if we changed one or two slight details ; A poster appears and their avvie pic is They are asked about that and they say 'It is the fairy swirl ' and that it is special to them but has also unlocked a door of 20 years suffering . You point out what it is generally thought to be and they respond that it is a secret meaning you ask more about that but their response is .... you either known it or you dont know it . You ask more and they start going on about Daoism .. firstly quoting Lao but after a while making weird interpretations , saying all sorts of weird and strange stuff and interpreting Lao Tzu's writing in a VERY strange way and claiming Lao said this and that . You continually ask for references as to where on earth Lao said that, but they refuse to ever give a reference. Then they claim much negative stuff about Lao and his writings . You present the good and positive stuff . Then THEY start catterwaillin' that YOU are negative and controlling and this and that ..... That is the essence and the issue under the outer clothing . Earl Grey can see it very clearly ... some only see the surface . Although this dynamic has been pointed out many times , some see it, some only see the outer (again, maybe becasue they have not read all the content and have not followed the dynamic that led to the outcome . Sure YOU ight just walk away .... good, if thats your method . Me .... as I have owned many a time here .... I am a goat ( Chinese year ) .. and butty ... and a crab ( western astrology ) .... I tend to 'hang on ' ..... but some think that's 'unenlightened ' < shrug > Edited September 28, 2019 by Nungali 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Integrated Posted September 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nungali said: Of course there is . You seem knowledgeable on a range of subjects that interest me and others here . If you are reasonable, can support what you say with reference to text, experience, good observation, etc . If you can answer a question, if you dont engage in silly tactics regarding the way the discussion or debate goes (like the ones pointed out here by me and Earl ( eg) . Try it . you might be surprised . Sure, I don't doubt that there is a possibility of learning from each other here. I think you will find that we share some values when it comes to that, but I think you will also find that certain of my other values trump those values in my value hierarchy. At the end of the day though, we all are unleashing our own problematic tendencies on each other. One of the big reason I see no hope for a permanent bridge, this little break in things really don't change the meta-analysis. Which remind me of the Erymanthian Boar from Hercules fourth labor. I wonder if the Boar on the top of the forum has any connection to that, if so, that would be interesting. If not, it seems to fit what I observe in this forum anyway, an outlet for repressed tendencies. It felt kinda good to be able to be assholeish over this whole thing, without having mods stepping in. Quote But if anyone starts acting like a real dick ... well ...... I wasn't being enough of a dick? Damn... I need to go make a sacrifice to Ares, so I can really get in the zone! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earl Grey Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Integrated said: Ah yeah, well that is the game that is played isn't it? I'd love to just relate as @ilumairen pointed out, but we both know it won't happen. @Nungali need to save face to preserve his online persona, and I just don't give a shit. Chiefly because I've met too many like him, and don't really feel like being more respectful than I have to. Which means that I don't have to show much respect at all, since this forum is pretty lax on moderation. I mean if there was a real bridge over this chasm, I'd be one of the first ones lining up to cross. But as far as I know there isn't, and most people telling otherwise have an agenda of control and domination. Would love if it where not so, but many of us have participated enough in the real world, to know how things are. If one reads say Jung, the picture doesn't become any prettier either, we are doomed to repeat this. The best we can hope for is saving ourselves as best we can, and maybe just maybe humanity will figure things out a few thousand years down the line. "but we both know it won't happen" - A little too certain of ourselves now, are we? You must be new either to the forum or new to the Art* *The Art is the Tao, or whatever esoteric path you follow, not necessarily for spiritual sagacity but for making sense of the cosmos. "Chiefly because I've met too many like him, and don't really feel like being more respectful than I have to. Which means that I don't have to show much respect at all, since this forum is pretty lax on moderation" - Reciprocity and the Golden Rule are not mutually exclusive, but I've found that they go hand in hand often if you work on your own ability to communicate, more on listening and understanding, as well as considering views outside of your own Belief System (your own BS for short) more than projecting. "I mean if there was a real bridge over this chasm, I'd be one of the first ones lining up to cross" - Then by all means, build that bridge, but don't accuse me or be crediting me for the wall that you yourself put up by reacting before thinking. Your posts earlier didn't seem to indicate you read the whole thread or how my shift in tone and style were to match what you said rather than what I had earlier written. By the way, you seem to indicate that playing in the mud is a bad thing. Nungali lives in the countryside in a commune and I worked in global development, so I've had a lot of hands-on work in agriculture and rural kids. Get your hands dirty for a change and you will discover that tendency to act precious quickly disappears--this is something my Southern friends love to say to city slickers and coastal urbanites. 8 hours ago, Nungali said: My music bubble includes Philip Glass, Nina Hargen, Prop ( astro jazz) , Tool, Mike Oldfield, Sade, and Evelyn Glennie ( who happens to be deaf ( she plays by feeling the vibration through her feet ), Sultana , Material .... among others ( see my posts in the music thread for more ) ; in Nungers, I think you and I would have a lovely weekend trading musical interests. I love Glass and Tool and Mike Oldfield. My other musical interests are way to many to list here, but I think I'll post another conflict-free thread in the PPJ for favorite artists and songs. No Disco Duck, I promise. 7 hours ago, Nungali said: Dude ! What makes you think I have any 'face' left ? Obviously I dont give a shit about that either . No, its something different going on here ( see below ) Regarding moderation, here is a little story ; Many people here consider themselves 'advanced' or enlightened' ... to some degree . Have you met 'Wellsie' ... he's a good sort . One time we where 'bantering' and other posters got shocked, offended , etc . I made some juvinile silly and stupid comment about the size of his dick . Some peeps where outraged , some demanded an apology, so I wrote one out and posted it ; I a sorry , sincerely , I am really sorry ... seriously ... I am sorry ... ... I am sorry Wellsies dick is so small ... it must be terrible for him . - some where outraged .. Wellsie? He laughed . ... there ya go ! Other enlightened ones would be outraged . But people see all these things differently . We had a guy here (briefly ) that did Iado . Good, I wanted to talk to him, we did a bit, But then this other side surfaced . He seemed to think he was very advanced and wrote how he would do this thing to people where they where tricked or something and that exposed them as some inferior type, and he then laughed at that, and said how good he was at it , as he was advanced and most other people where not . Fair enough , but I decided to try it on him, to see how he took his own medicine . Well, he fitted and vomited. Could not believe someone here on a daoist forum would insult him that way ... he left in an outraged huff . Some members where outraged at me, saying I had driven off a new good member ( probably they never read all the posts ? HMMMMMM ? ) others knew exactly the dynamic played out . Same here ... some see the shadow play others dont . Whatever . Obviously I dont mind mud play at all .. we used to have this thing called 'the pit ', 'questionable discussions' would be thrown down there where people could do as they will . Ahhh ... the pit ... Bring back the pit ! Of course there is . You seem knowledgeable on a range of subjects that interest me and others here . If you are reasonable, can support what you say with reference to text, experience, good observation, etc . If you can answer a question, if you dont engage in silly tactics regarding the way the discussion or debate goes (like the ones pointed out here by me and Earl ( eg) . Try it . you might be surprised . But if anyone starts acting like a real dick ... well ...... Thats if humanity lasts that long . "Of course there is . You seem knowledgeable on a range of subjects that interest me and others here . If you are reasonable, can support what you say with reference to text, experience, good observation, etc . If you can answer a question, if you dont engage in silly tactics regarding the way the discussion or debate goes (like the ones pointed out here by me and Earl ( eg) . Try it . you might be surprised . But if anyone starts acting like a real dick ... well ......" Yep, ace wisdom from our favorite trickster teacher on the forum. I don't know about others, but me personally, and from what I saw in your responses to the OP, there was no malice or pride whatsoever, just honest questions about the odd interpretations presented as facts and absolutes that didn't seem to be aware of the inherent contradictions made by him often in the same post. 7 hours ago, Nungali said: I am wondering how all this would have played out from the beginning if we changed one or two slight details ; A poster appears and their avvie pic is They are asked about that and they say 'It is the fairy swirl ' and that it is special to them but has also unlocked a door of 20 years suffering . You point out what it is generally thought to be and they respond that it is a secret meaning you ask more about that but their response is .... you either known it or you dont know it . You ask more and they start going on about Daoism .. firstly quoting Lao but after a while making weird interpretations , saying all sorts of weird and strange stuff and interpreting Lao Tzu's writing in a VERY strange way and claiming Lao said this and that . You continually ask for references as to where on earth Lao said that, but they refuse to ever give a reference. Then they claim much negative stuff about Lao and his writings . You present the good and positive stuff . Then THEY start catterwaillin' that YOU are negative and controlling and this and that ..... That is the essence and the issue under the outer clothing . Earl Grey can see it very clearly ... some only see the surface . Although this dynamic has been pointed out many times , some see it, some only see the outer (again, maybe becasue they have not read all the content and have not followed the dynamic that led to the outcome . Sure YOU ight just walk away .... good, if thats your method . Me .... as I have owned many a time here .... I am a goat ( Chinese year ) .. and butty ... and a crab ( western astrology ) .... I tend to 'hang on ' ..... but some think that's 'unenlightened ' < shrug > I'm going to repeat an old story here before about people missing the point and not understanding the sources they claim to cite: a guy argued with my friend and me about Buddha and things he said and taught and how he was a terrible individual. We're nodding our heads and he goes on and on about how Buddha was in China. Our eyebrows raise as he rants...and then we ask him why he appears to be talking about Confucius. He then states, "Well, they're the same person, d'uh!" and at that point we didn't even bother listening to what he said. He then accused us of being narrow-minded and ignorant and mean for arguing with him. Apparently, fact checking makes you an asshole. And this was before the Internet. 7 hours ago, Integrated said: Sure, I don't doubt that there is a possibility of learning from each other here. I think you will find that we share some values when it comes to that, but I think you will also find that certain of my other values trump those values in my value hierarchy. At the end of the day though, we all are unleashing our own problematic tendencies on each other. One of the big reason I see no hope for a permanent bridge, this little break in things really don't change the meta-analysis. Which remind me of the Erymanthian Boar from Hercules fourth labor. I wonder if the Boar on the top of the forum has any connection to that, if so, that would be interesting. If not, it seems to fit what I observe in this forum anyway, an outlet for repressed tendencies. It felt kinda good to be able to be assholeish over this whole thing, without having mods stepping in. I wasn't being enough of a dick? Damn... I need to go make a sacrifice to Ares, so I can really get in the zone! "At the end of the day though, we all are unleashing our own problematic tendencies on each other. One of the big reason I see no hope for a permanent bridge, this little break in things really don't change the meta-analysis" - Quite the optimist, aren't we? "Which remind me of the Erymanthian Boar from Hercules fourth labor. I wonder if the Boar on the top of the forum has any connection to that, if so, that would be interesting. If not, it seems to fit what I observe in this forum anyway, an outlet for repressed tendencies. It felt kinda good to be able to be assholeish over this whole thing, without having mods stepping in." - Assholeish? I wouldn't have characterized you as that. Overblown sense of misguided righteousness and unnecessary sanctimony, probably, but not an asshole. Hercules also ended up with 12 labors because he was a bit too clever for wording given to him for his original 10, but in doing so he screwed himself over by not actually developing the skills he needed to build his character that the tests were designed for him to learn. There's also arguably an energetic alchemical growth parallel to this, but I have it in my notes somewhere and don't feel like digging into them on a beautiful Sunday morning when I get to enjoy a smoothie and a roast beef and cheese sandwich here before I go do some training, enjoy the newspaper and a book (Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich), and marathon gaming on the Nintendo Switch. Edited September 29, 2019 by Earl Grey 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Integrated Posted September 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Earl Grey said: "but we both know it won't happen" - A little too certain of ourselves now, are we? You must be new either to the forum or new to the Art* *The Art is the Tao, or whatever esoteric path you follow, not necessarily for spiritual sagacity but for making sense of the cosmos. Am I? You are free to believe whatever you want at this point. I will however act as I see fit from the information I have available to me, if that strikes you as being "new to the arts" then so be it. Quote "Chiefly because I've met too many like him, and don't really feel like being more respectful than I have to. Which means that I don't have to show much respect at all, since this forum is pretty lax on moderation" - Reciprocity and the Golden Rule are not mutually exclusive, but I've found that they go hand in hand often if you work on your own ability to communicate, more on listening and understanding, as well as considering views outside of your own Belief System (your own BS for short) more than projecting. Yeah I should abandon all frames of reference that has worked in the past just because you make a crude conflation here. Belief system -> BS, I guess that is a fact in your eyes. As for projecting, that is the natural state of the human psychology anyway, we cannot not project. So feel free to level that critique all you want, just remember the glass house you are in. Quote "Which remind me of the Erymanthian Boar from Hercules fourth labor. I wonder if the Boar on the top of the forum has any connection to that, if so, that would be interesting. If not, it seems to fit what I observe in this forum anyway, an outlet for repressed tendencies. It felt kinda good to be able to be assholeish over this whole thing, without having mods stepping in." - Assholeish? I wouldn't have characterized you as that. Overblown sense of misguided righteousness and unnecessary sanctimony, probably, but not an asshole. I'll let you in on a little secret, there is the outer asshole and the inner asshole. When one feel assholeish, one isn't necessarily perceived as an asshole. I know this might be hard for someone like you who think the externals is more or less all there is, and hence try to make every sentence into a statement of external superiority. It could of course be a mask to goad me on, try to hit a nerve again, with supposed test upon test, to test my level of enlightenment. But to me, it seems more likely to be you just trying to fire arrows at me that you hope will kill me, because you fear me now. Quote "I mean if there was a real bridge over this chasm, I'd be one of the first ones lining up to cross" - Then by all means, build that bridge, but don't accuse me or be crediting me for the wall that you yourself put up by reacting before thinking. Your posts earlier didn't seem to indicate you read the whole thread or how my shift in tone and style were to match what you said rather than what I had earlier written. Haha build that bridge!!! You know man, that is the funniest thing I've heard in a while. I'm gonna have a big smile all day. Maybe I didn't pay as much attention to elements of the thread that you feel I should have. Quote By the way, you seem to indicate that playing in the mud is a bad thing. Nungali lives in the countryside in a commune and I worked in global development, so I've had a lot of hands-on work in agriculture and rural kids. Get your hands dirty for a change and you will discover that tendency to act precious quickly disappears--this is something my Southern friends love to say to city slickers and coastal urbanites. More taunts at weak points you think I have. You just don't stop failing to trigger me with your assumptions do you? Quote Yep, ace wisdom from our favorite trickster teacher on the forum. I don't know about others, but me personally, and from what I saw in your responses to the OP, there was no malice or pride whatsoever, just honest questions about the odd interpretations presented as facts and absolutes that didn't seem to be aware of the inherent contradictions made by him often in the same post. Well I'm done with the whole debacle of which side has the right perspective, as I said, that chasm is unbridgeable. You will forever feel you are superior and correct, as you will not admit that there are other points of view that hold merit than your own. I do see you point of view quite clearly, but I will not take your side, as your pov isn't the same as mine. Not only that, but since you fail to accepts others subjective stance, any olive branch will be perceived by you as a submission. You will slap on a chain and proclaim a wonderful period of peace, while everyone else is slaving for you in the fields. Quote I'm going to repeat an old story here before about people missing the point and not understanding the sources they claim to cite: a guy argued with my friend and me about Buddha and things he said and taught and how he was a terrible individual. We're nodding our heads and he goes on and on about how Buddha was in China. Our eyebrows raise as he rants...and then we ask him why he appears to be talking about Confucius. He then states, "Well, they're the same person, d'uh!" and at that point we didn't even bother listening to what he said. He then accused us of being narrow-minded and ignorant and mean for arguing with him. Apparently, fact checking makes you an asshole. And this was before the Internet. Sure, I don't doubt he had his facts wrong, that is not the point here, and hence you fail to see the point just as much. Not that I blame you, just as I don't blame people who contribute to systemic problems beyond their control. But when those actions stand to hurt me as an individual, I must draw a line, with your understanding or not. Quote "At the end of the day though, we all are unleashing our own problematic tendencies on each other. One of the big reason I see no hope for a permanent bridge, this little break in things really don't change the meta-analysis" - Quite the optimist, aren't we? Well if this long post you just made had not been mocking/superior/etc, I might have had to rethink my stance. But you just keep on going. You lack the subtle twists that Nungali has, I guess that is why you look up to him. Quote Hercules also ended up with 12 labors because he was a bit too clever for wording given to him for his original 10, but in doing so he screwed himself over by not actually developing the skills he needed to build his character that the tests were designed for him to learn. Yeah so? What does that have to do with the Boar association I made? Oh wait, this is just another subtle stab at me, because that is the whole gist of your narrative. This other person need to be taught their place, everything they say is an indication that they don't know enough. I toned down my stance as a little test you know. In fact I thought you had run off in pure terror hiding behind Nungali, I actually ignorelisted you as irrelevant noise, so I had to unignore you to check what this was about. Maybe you thought Nungali had tamed me or something haha. Quote There's also arguably an energetic alchemical growth parallel to this, but I have it in my notes somewhere and don't feel like digging into them on a beautiful Sunday morning when I get to enjoy a smoothie and a roast beef and cheese sandwich here before I go do some training, enjoy the newspaper and a book (Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich), and marathon gaming on the Nintendo Switch. Oh the burn of your perfect existence is too much for me! Am I to feel that if I respond on this perfect sunday, that you have snubbed me or something? Hahaha I still don't give a shit! Though it is interesting to be able to do this kind of dynamic without mods cancelling the flamewar, but I'm sure it will get old soon. As for your attempt at getting me to spill the beans by pretending you already know all the secrets to the labors. Well I could care less if you do, and if you do, then you are probably faking your superior attitude as a test, because that seem to be the goto failsafe argument at least, and even that is subtly alluded to. Whether you are actually enjoying yourself and not feeling any disturbance to match the attitude you have, or if you are sitting angry in front of your computer doesn't matter to me. I tried to relate by talking topic, and you decided to be an ass back. (as I predicted would happen) Not that I wasn't expecting it, but it seems from your words that I was too lenient in my first reply to you. Because I told you that you should look at that splinter in your eye, but it looks more and more like a beam. That is about all, enjoy your perfect life, your perfect knowledge and your perfect peace of mind. If that is really what you have, good for you! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Integrated said: I wasn't being enough of a dick? Damn... I need to go make a sacrifice to Ares, so I can really get in the zone! What though ? .... a lamb ... your first born ? I prefer to deal with Nuit ! " I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice." - I : 38 The Book of the Law. And dont start me on Hercules ! What an exercise in failure ! Let;s just settle for rams, Hercules and 'other Goddesses ' . https://hercules-xena.fandom.com/wiki/The_Eye_of_the_Ram Lookit ! ^ They got 'sidekicks' 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Earl Grey said: ... By the way, you seem to indicate that playing in the mud is a bad thing. Nungali lives in the countryside in a commune and I worked in global development, so I've had a lot of hands-on work in agriculture and rural kids. Get your hands dirty for a change and you will discover that tendency to act precious quickly disappears--this is something my Southern friends love to say to city slickers and coastal urbanites. Indeed ! When I first read the play in the mud thing, I immediately thought of myself sitting around in dust and charcoal and ash and animal grease around the fire in the dark gunya of my shamanic teachers then abode, and talking or sitting silently through the night . Ahhhhh ... those where the days ! 3 hours ago, Earl Grey said: . There's also arguably an energetic alchemical growth parallel to this, but I have it in my notes somewhere and don't feel like digging into them on a beautiful Sunday morning when I get to enjoy a smoothie and a roast beef and cheese sandwich here before I go do some training, enjoy the newspaper and a book (Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich), and marathon gaming on the Nintendo Switch. Roast beef and cheese sandwich ! ? What sort of a forum is this ? Where rich fat people sit around on their bloated white western arses, flaunting the exotic food they are about to eat! I came here for Daoism ! Not this rubbish ! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 22 minutes ago, Integrated said: ... etc ... I liked the jab about me taming you . That would be the 13th labour wouldnt it . The Gods ; "Okay, you did 1 - 12 , smart arse , now let's see you go and tame the ....... 'Integrated One ! ' 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Integrated Posted September 29, 2019 17 minutes ago, Nungali said: What though ? .... a lamb ... your first born ? At this point I think Earl Gray would be a fitting thing to throw on that altar. Quote I prefer to deal with Nuit ! " I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice." - I : 38 The Book of the Law. Nuit? That is Nuts! Quote And dont start me on Hercules ! What an exercise in failure ! Well how could he be anything else? After all, he is sort of representing our own failed nature, and some of the more common traps we can fall into. As for Hercules the series, I remember it vaguely being aired in my childhood. Maybe I'll rewatch it in full for fun, that and Xena! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zork Posted September 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, Nungali said: Roast beef and cheese sandwich ! ? Quite the audacious lad isn't he? 11 minutes ago, Nungali said: What sort of a forum is this ? Where rich fat people sit around on their bloated white western arses, flaunting the exotic food they are about to eat! You are in luck! He is neither white nor rich! 12 minutes ago, Nungali said: I came here for Daoism ! Not this rubbish ! It is called the Daobums for a reason mate! We wear rugs for clothes and sing to the stars at night. For mainstream western daoism please refer elsewhere.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earl Grey Posted September 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Integrated said: Am I? You are free to believe whatever you want at this point. I will however act as I see fit from the information I have available to me, if that strikes you as being "new to the arts" then so be it. Must be means it's an educated guess. And by your own responses, it doesn't seem like you have a lot of depth (keyword seems, big boy). 1 minute ago, Integrated said: Yeah I should abandon all frames of reference that has worked in the past just because you make a crude conflation here. Belief system -> BS, I guess that is a fact in your eyes. As for projecting, that is the natural state of the human psychology anyway, we cannot not project. So feel free to level that critique all you want, just remember the glass house you are in. It's wordplay and in my signature, a reference to the great Robert Anton Wilson--a little humorous rib at you, not a personal attack. As for projecting being the natural state of human psychology--not a view that I subscribe to, because I'm just saying what I know and seeing that you're looking for hostility that isn't here. If you even think that this is critique, well, you run in some funny circles, my boy. You remind me of the people who thought Hunter S. Thompson before the 1980s was a mean and terrible human being. An asshole, yes, but a Southern Gentleman and a lot of heart, wisdom, and insight. Those people who aren't fond of him tend to be Millennials and Edgers. 4 minutes ago, Integrated said: I'll let you in on a little secret, there is the outer asshole and the inner asshole. When one feel assholeish, one isn't necessarily perceived as an asshole. I know this might be hard for someone like you who think the externals is more or less all there is, and hence try to make every sentence into a statement of external superiority. It could of course be a mask to goad me on, try to hit a nerve again, with supposed test upon test, to test my level of enlightenment. But to me, it seems more likely to be you just trying to fire arrows at me that you hope will kill me, because you fear me now. "I know this might be hard for someone like you who think the externals is more or less all there is" - Here you go again making assumptions and not actually trying to comprehend or consider that I'm saying something completely different from what you're interpreting. You're also presuming to understand what I think or believe, which is nothing like this at all. "It could of course be a mask to goad me on, try to hit a nerve again, with supposed test upon test, to test my level of enlightenment." - Why would I waste time testing someone who thinks he's keeping it classy but has demonstrated through his own fatuous comments that he has no class? "But to me, it seems more likely to be you just trying to fire arrows at me that you hope will kill me, because you fear me now." - You must be very good at reading people's actual feelings and emotions huh? Okay, Bro. Keep telling yourself that. 10 minutes ago, Integrated said: Haha build that bridge!!! You know man, that is the funniest thing I've heard in a while. I'm gonna have a big smile all day. Maybe I didn't pay as much attention to elements of the thread that you feel I should have. Make sure that you build a bridge out of wood rather than plastic. As for not paying attention, it was fairly obvious you didn't. 11 minutes ago, Integrated said: More taunts at weak points you think I have. You just don't stop failing to trigger me with your assumptions do you? Seems like a Millennial or Edger kind of thing for someone like you to think I'm taunting or trying to "trigger" you. In my upbringing, challenging someone didn't mean that you were trying to piss them off, it meant you were getting them to think. So far, you haven't been thinking. And if you are "triggered", to me, being "triggered" is your own issue, not mine, because that isn't even my intent, but I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears because once again, what you perceive is far different from what is actually being said, whether by me or Nungali. 13 minutes ago, Integrated said: Well I'm done with the whole debacle of which side has the right perspective, as I said, that chasm is unbridgeable. You will forever feel you are superior and correct, as you will not admit that there are other points of view that hold merit than your own. I do see you point of view quite clearly, but I will not take your side, as your pov isn't the same as mine. Not only that, but since you fail to accepts others subjective stance, any olive branch will be perceived by you as a submission. You will slap on a chain and proclaim a wonderful period of peace, while everyone else is slaving for you in the fields. "You will forever feel you are superior and correct" - I haven't said anywhere that I am superior or correct as I already stated that this subject is not my passion (Crowley). I only stated that the OP sounds silly, which was what developed later on in this discussion. "as you will not admit that there are other points of view that hold merit than your own." - I've actually been quite amicable, but your non-arguments from strawman tactics and ad hominem attacks while supporting someone because he's "interesting" rather than the merit of his fallacies and interpretations is the same as people I knew who voted for George W. Bush, Barack Obama, or Donald Trump because they liked their character and personality, but couldn't identify their policies at all. "I do see you point of view quite clearly, but I will not take your side, as your pov isn't the same as mine." - This hasn't been demonstrated because everything you are responding to doesn't sound like anything I've written. "Not only that, but since you fail to accepts others subjective stance, any olive branch will be perceived by you as a submission" - Again: being unable to disagree is a norm of the 21st century that people feel it is better to seem agreeable than to have actual dialogue. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis: people think an antithesis is a bad thing, but without it, there is no synthesis. So many theses posited by others wanting to sound relevant but nobody is actually checking out the other views. "You will slap on a chain and proclaim a wonderful period of peace, while everyone else is slaving for you in the fields." - Pretty amusing since I work in global development and eradication of poverty, as well as identifying as a Leftist, but unless you've been participating in other threads, or you actually know who I am, your attempts at character assassination are bemusing. 23 minutes ago, Integrated said: Sure, I don't doubt he had his facts wrong, that is not the point here, and hence you fail to see the point just as much. Not that I blame you, just as I don't blame people who contribute to systemic problems beyond their control. But when those actions stand to hurt me as an individual, I must draw a line, with your understanding or not. He did have his facts wrong. But the "people who contribute to systemic problems beyond their control" parallel is a false comparison. As for the line you're drawing, you sound like one of those proud university kid vegans who used to shout at me while I enjoyed a cheeseburger, thinking they were changing the world. I wasn't arguing with them as I bit into it and they assumed I was arguing with every non-response I gave, I wasn't even thinking about them, I was just enjoying my burger. And you, lad, are not stopping me from enjoying a burger, just as your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. 26 minutes ago, Integrated said: Well if this long post you just made had not been mocking/superior/etc, I might have had to rethink my stance. But you just keep on going. You lack the subtle twists that Nungali has, I guess that is why you look up to him "Well if this long post you just made had not been mocking/superior/etc, I might have had to rethink my stance." - Rethinking your stance should be something you do regardless of what I say or think, and anyone and everyone should be doing this, lest they become static and stubborn with absolute certainty about things that just aren't true, especially as new facts arise. "But you just keep on going." - Y'all asked me to dance, so I'm dancing with y'all, pardner. Yee-haw! Grab yer partner, dosey-do! "You lack the subtle twists that Nungali has, I guess that is why you look up to him" Nungali has seen one thread where I was indeed pissed off and he put me in my place unsubtly, by the way. It isn't a matter of "looking up" so much as it is that I respect him and others on this forum for their own merits, including you. Be glad this isn't a discussion on Zhan Zhuang or IMA because then you're in my world and you have no chance of making any substantive statements worth considering, and no, I won't toot my own horn as that's not the topic here, but you're welcome to see in other posts in other threads. 30 minutes ago, Integrated said: Yeah so? What does that have to do with the Boar association I made? Oh wait, this is just another subtle stab at me, because that is the whole gist of your narrative. This other person need to be taught their place, everything they say is an indication that they don't know enough. I toned down my stance as a little test you know. In fact I thought you had run off in pure terror hiding behind Nungali, I actually ignorelisted you as irrelevant noise, so I had to unignore you to check what this was about. Maybe you thought Nungali had tamed me or something haha. "What does that have to do with the Boar association I made?" - comprehension and correlation skills: -2. It was one of Hercules labors, nothing more. "Oh wait, this is just another subtle stab at me, because that is the whole gist of your narrative" - I wonder how people in the 21st century live thinking that everything is a personal attack, directly or indirectly, even if the person saying those things isn't doing that at all (in this case me not attacking at all). "This other person need to be taught their place, everything they say is an indication that they don't know enough." - Is this what you wrote for your dating profile self-description? "I toned down my stance as a little test you know." - Self-testing? I hope you passed your own test. "In fact I thought you had run off in pure terror hiding behind Nungali," - Terror? I'm the scariest thing in the dark. A tiny terror, but still a terror, as people in the west and the east have both made similar comments about my silence until actually talking with me and my stoic face. "I actually ignorelisted you as irrelevant noise, so I had to unignore you to check what this was about." - How flattering. Tell someone who cares what you think about me, because I don't think about what you think about me, I think about what I think. "Maybe you thought Nungali had tamed me or something haha." - You do have a habit of assuming what others think and mean without actually asking them. 38 minutes ago, Integrated said: Oh the burn of your perfect existence is too much for me! Am I to feel that if I respond on this perfect sunday, that you have snubbed me or something? Hahaha I still don't give a shit! Though it is interesting to be able to do this kind of dynamic without mods cancelling the flamewar, but I'm sure it will get old soon. As for your attempt at getting me to spill the beans by pretending you already know all the secrets to the labors. Well I could care less if you do, and if you do, then you are probably faking your superior attitude as a test, because that seem to be the goto failsafe argument at least, and even that is subtly alluded to. Whether you are actually enjoying yourself and not feeling any disturbance to match the attitude you have, or if you are sitting angry in front of your computer doesn't matter to me. I tried to relate by talking topic, and you decided to be an ass back. (as I predicted would happen) Not that I wasn't expecting it, but it seems from your words that I was too lenient in my first reply to you. Because I told you that you should look at that splinter in your eye, but it looks more and more like a beam. That is about all, enjoy your perfect life, your perfect knowledge and your perfect peace of mind. If that is really what you have, good for you! "Am I to feel that if I respond on this perfect sunday, that you have snubbed me or something?" - Actually, I was responding as a courtesy, not to demonstrate anything at all. If you see this as a flamewar, you really need to get your head out of your asshole. "Hahaha I still don't give a shit" - You sure seem to spend a lot of time trying to show that you don't give a shit. "As for your attempt at getting me to spill the beans by pretending you already know all the secrets to the labors. Well I could care less if you do, and if you do, then you are probably faking your superior attitude as a test, because that seem to be the goto failsafe argument at least, and even that is subtly alluded to" - I didn't pretend to know, I said I had them in my notes somewhere but wasn't interested in looking for them to share right now and deviate from this engagement. "Whether you are actually enjoying yourself and not feeling any disturbance to match the attitude you have, or if you are sitting angry in front of your computer doesn't matter to me" - And it shouldn't matter to you, but again, you're spending a lot of time trying to prove that you don't care about what I think. "I tried to relate by talking topic, and you decided to be an ass back. (as I predicted would happen) Not that I wasn't expecting it, but it seems from your words that I was too lenient in my first reply to you. Because I told you that you should look at that splinter in your eye, but it looks more and more like a beam" - I only responded to what you threw at me, as you've been talking at me and over me, not with me. If you thought you were too lenient, it appears you admit you're creating conflict--you remind me of the little kids who think they can fight and walk up to my friends and me while training, and we humor them by mock fainting when they air jab at us. And if you keep worrying about the splinter in my eye, again: why are you concerned with what's in my eye and what you don't think that I see that you do? "That is about all, enjoy your perfect life, your perfect knowledge and your perfect peace of mind. If that is really what you have, good for you! " - Never said what I had was perfect or that I am, I just shared sincerely because that's what I do. I also don't need to explain myself for your own edification. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earl Grey Posted September 29, 2019 29 minutes ago, Nungali said: Indeed ! When I first read the play in the mud thing, I immediately thought of myself sitting around in dust and charcoal and ash and animal grease around the fire in the dark gunya of my shamanic teachers then abode, and talking or sitting silently through the night . Ahhhhh ... those where the days ! Sounds perfect. Come out to this region whether in Philippines, Indonesia, Timor, or Cambodia and I'll show you some fine people you'd enjoy. This is a serious invite, by the way. 30 minutes ago, Nungali said: Roast beef and cheese sandwich ! ? What sort of a forum is this ? Where rich fat people sit around on their bloated white western arses, flaunting the exotic food they are about to eat! I came here for Daoism ! Not this rubbish ! Got it from the Sunday farmer's market. All of $3.30 USD. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earl Grey Posted September 29, 2019 19 minutes ago, Integrated said: At this point I think Earl Gray would be a fitting thing to throw on that altar. Earl Gray seems like a nice fellow, but I'm Earl Grey. I shall quote the Roman Lays about Horatius: "To every man who lives upon this earth, death cometh sooner or later, and how can a man die better than to face fearful odds for the ashes of his fathers and the altars of his gods?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Integrated Posted September 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said: ---etc--- As funny as this is to watch unfold. I'm going to draw a line here. I know I've been plenty unreasonable with you, (from a civilized point of view) many of your accusations are probably valid to some extent. But that is just the thing, people like us two, can't get along in a vacuum like this forum. We need an external force threatening with sanctions if we don't behave up to societal standards. I just don't like what you represent in your posts, and I'm not shy of telling you, since there are no real consequences. I think you represent bullshit. Though I see that the world need people like you in the final analysis, that doesn't mean that I must suffer you. And since it is clear that if we keep this up our replies will just span never ending walls of texts of accusations, I don't really see the point to continue time-wise, I have other plans today. I didn't know it would turn out exactly like this, so thanks for the educational experience of knowing how such a tangle will probably turn out. Every other time I've been in this position online, a mod has come in to ruin the experience. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earl Grey Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Integrated said: As funny as this is to watch unfold. I'm going to draw a line here. I know I've been plenty unreasonable with you, (from a civilized point of view) many of your accusations are probably valid to some extent. But that is just the thing, people like us two, can't get along in a vacuum like this forum. We need an external force threatening with sanctions if we don't behave up to societal standards. I just don't like what you represent in your posts, and I'm not shy of telling you, since there are no real consequences. I think you represent bullshit. Though I see that the world need people like you in the final analysis, that doesn't mean that I must suffer you. And since it is clear that if we keep this up our replies will just span never ending walls of texts of accusations, I don't really see the point to continue time-wise, I have other plans today. I didn't know it would turn out exactly like this, so thanks for the educational experience of knowing how such a tangle will probably turn out. Every other time I've been in this position online, a mod has come in to ruin the experience. I shall quote the wisdom of the Greeks then in response to what you believe I represent: μην κρίνεις εξ ιδίων τα αλλότρια, or, translated in English: "don't judge what others do (or believe) based on your own convictions (or opinions/experiences)." Edited September 29, 2019 by Earl Grey 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mskied Posted September 29, 2019 Its all Wisdom. There is no end to the Abyss Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted September 29, 2019 39 minutes ago, Mskied said: Its all Wisdom. There is no end to the Abyss Does the Abyss have it's own Wisdom? And in your (or anyone else who wishes to chime in/share's) opinion what is "the Abyss" intended to signify? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted September 29, 2019 6 hours ago, Integrated said: But that is just the thing, people like us two, can't get along in a vacuum like this forum. We need an external force threatening with sanctions if we don't behave up to societal standards. This intrigues me, the idea of needing an external threatening force... Have you explored this thought/ belief? And if you have, to what extent? And how would you apply this to your understanding of the dynamics of love and will as presented by Crowley (to keep this somewhat on topic)? 6 hours ago, Integrated said: I just don't like what you represent in your posts, and I'm not shy of telling you, since there are no real consequences. Is there any sense of personal "freedom" in writing this? And have you internally explored what it is you're responding to and why? :curiosity: 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Integrated Posted September 29, 2019 31 minutes ago, ilumairen said: Have you explored this thought/ belief? And if you have, to what extent? And how would you apply this to your understanding of the dynamics of love and will as presented by Crowley (to keep this somewhat on topic)? Crowley isn't really the topic here, but OPs wish to end thought, which have been quite well addressed I think. As for Crowley I only know him superficially, and any mention I did of him, was in response to someone else linking his ideas to Kabbalah I think. Meaning Tifereth as will etc... Pretty fascinating stuff, I might need to check out Crowley now. But yeah I've explored it plenty, but from a Jungian frame among others, not in light of Crowley. Quote Is there any sense of personal "freedom" in writing this? And have you internally explored what it is you're responding to and why? It is like going on a vacation to a more liberal country. Suddenly there is a lot of stuff that is normal and allowed, that previously was forbidden. That can be both liberating and scary, and part of the reason why it took me a year to return after I joined this forum the first time. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted September 29, 2019 On 27/09/2019 at 12:22 AM, Integrated said: Makes sense, the ego is too limited to be able to deal fully with any of the sefirots. Isn't that what the number of the beast is about anyway? The ego can just accept three of the sixes (as in four elements), hence why mans number is 666. So the ego can only handle 3/4 of Tipheret, yet that is still pretty beautiful and powerful. As for the higher self, it will carry on its mysterious stuff regardless of what the ego can handle. I do think however, that the more the ego can handle, the more gracefully it can follow along with the higher self. Turning this into this sort of Something of the like, yes. That's mostly a view on the LHP side of the tree, but you can also access other things if you go through other paths. Remember, there are at least three paths the ego can use to access Tipheret (not mentioning the hidden paths) - through reason (Hod - Tipheret), through self-knowledge and initiation (Netzach-Tipheret) and through spiritual contact and spiritual ecstasy (Yesod-Tipheret). The first has to do, in the way of the initiates who practice yoga, with Jana Yoga. The second as well Jana, but less sitting and reading the Vedas and more detaching yourself from the world, finding a guru and being initiated into forms of self-improvement and knowledge. The third has to do with Bakti Yoga. The first step on Bakti has to do with getting to Yesod (obedience and purity of thought/emotion) and the second step with direct connection to the divine (ecstasy). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Integrated said: At this point I think Earl Gray would be a fitting thing to throw on that altar. Nooo ... then we would have lost a valuable enlightened Daobum ! You do realise he is the only Daobum that will post a picture of a guy with a dick drawn on his face and say "This is you ' - that's gotta be invaluable ! 14 hours ago, Integrated said: Nuit? That is Nuts! Well how could he be anything else? After all, he is sort of representing our own failed nature, and some of the more common traps we can fall into. Yes, I suppose we do need the opposite of the Shamanic path demonstrated . Spoiler In shamanism the 'initiate' allows the initiation process, if it be elders scaring your chest, or more 'unmaterial' forces , dismembering and reconstructing you , turning your bones to iron, inserting crystals (or the modern day 'probes' ) into your body, or meet a giant snake that wants to devour you, or ..... you passively allow it . You dont smash it with your club or kill it . Ever read a shamanic experience where they did ? Even in the modern world, where all this process has been disrupted and we still psychologically enact it , in THAT scenario, we hear of the person being in a trance like state, 'unable to act' they are complacent and physically complying , even though not understanding . have you ever heard an 'abductee' saying " So the alien approached me with the probe, I jumped off the table and punched him out .... " . I havent . Only this guy does it (the Ego ) ; and other 'heros' ... like Herc ... ... thats we luv em ! Thing was , Hercs father was the boss, so they had to make an exception for the fuck up. No way he was gonna pass his initiation, they couldnt fail him 'cause ...... 'Bosses Son' so they invented the monstrosity of (and just for him) 'The Lesser Mysteries ' .... or what we might call nowadays ; 14 hours ago, Integrated said: As for Hercules the series, I remember it vaguely being aired in my childhood. Maybe I'll rewatch it in full for fun, that and Xena! Oooo, I bet EVERYONE is wondering this ; Even though Xena and her little mate where obviously playing on the 'lesbian interest' and Hercules and his little friend, where obviously trying to cash in on the same ...... ya just know those two on the outside are gonna get it together anyway . I mean , it HAS to happen .... yeah ? Spoiler 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Zork said: You are in luck! He is neither white nor rich! Yes .... its a comment about projection and people's assumptions - HE knows why I wrote it . < thinks > Hmmmm .... I have never before considered how lucky I am , that some people are not white . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Earl Grey said: Sounds perfect. Come out to this region whether in Philippines, Indonesia, Timor, or Cambodia and I'll show you some fine people you'd enjoy. This is a serious invite, by the way. I promised my self I will not do a commercial flight again . But thanks 14 hours ago, Earl Grey said: Got it from the Sunday farmer's market. All of $3.30 USD. A cheese and roast beef sandwich from a farmers market ? Hey! Thats NOT Kosher ! ( I'll tell your mother ! ) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, Integrated said: As funny as this is to watch unfold. I'm going to draw a line here. I know I've been plenty unreasonable with you, (from a civilized point of view) many of your accusations are probably valid to some extent. But that is just the thing, people like us two, can't get along in a vacuum like this forum. Damn ! I am waiting for you to say "You are not MY cup of tea' .... but , no 14 hours ago, Integrated said: We need an external force threatening with sanctions if we don't behave up to societal standards. Alright you guys ... break it up ! Quote I just don't like what you represent in your posts, and I'm not shy of telling you, since there are no real consequences. I think you represent bullshit. Though I see that the world need people like you in the final analysis, that doesn't mean that I must suffer you. And since it is clear that if we keep this up our replies will just span never ending walls of texts of accusations, I don't really see the point to continue time-wise, I have other plans today. I didn't know it would turn out exactly like this, so thanks for the educational experience of knowing how such a tangle will probably turn out. Every other time I've been in this position online, a mod has come in to ruin the experience. Lack of moderator leads to self moderation . Hmmmmm ..... Very 'anarchic' and 'Thelemic ' Edited September 29, 2019 by Nungali 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Mskied said: Its all Wisdom. There is no end to the Abyss < throws a roast beef and cheese sandwich at him > 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
