Does the soul know the difference?

[manitou]

 

 

I wonder if the same imprints caused by conditioning in early childhood are also caused by exposure to video games?  Does the soul know the difference, really, between actuality and a video game scenario?   Are internal reactions to stimulus of lesser impact because they're artificially created?.  I don't know, but I suspect not.

 

Or does the soul even know the difference between a nighttime dream and a daytime occurrence?  Is it possible that our currently manifested self is a mixture of not only externally caused imprints (by parents, punishment, etc) but also dream-caused imprints?  (Please just go along with the 'soul' concept, although it infers duality.  You know what I'm talking about ) 

 

I bring this up because of today's mass shooting in El Paso, TX.  Apparently the shooter posted  some right winged stuff; he posted it to a like- minded website.  On that particular site, there are not only right wing extremists, but extremists who use expressions such as those used in video gaming.  In today's particular case, he posted before he went out to shoot, and there were remarks like 'Rack up those points, bro' - things like that in response.  Perhaps the 'rack up the points' was a common phrase within the gaming circles.

 

I'm not a soccer mom.  I'm not here to put down video games.  But damn!  Is there any chance that the mass shooters of today could well have been negatively imprinted when younger by video games?

 

Probably someone's done a study on this - but I'm guessing we're more creative thinkers....

[Nintendao]

I think it's fair to say that playing Super Mario Brothers has contributed to my desire to eat mushrooms, climb into tunnels, and try to save princesses. Likewise The Legend of Zelda has beckoned me to traverse the fields and forests in search of enchanted items. Not just games but all works of fantasy e.g. by Jules Verne, J.R.R Tolkien, George Lucas, Shakespeare, Gilgamesh, for many, many generations. I love the idea that even experiences purely in a dream state can be just as formative as "real-world." I'd say even more so, in some cases.

 

I see a major disconnect from this tradition in the gamer subculture that engages in multiplayer death-match first person shooter styles. The element of story and mystery is totally sold out in exchange for pure carnage, and cold, tactical predation. It's sad and a plague on the psyche and thus society.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Nintendao

[manitou]

Those types of games must certainly accustom a kid to violence.  How could they not get desensitized?

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

I think it's fair to say that playing Super Mario Brothers has contributed to my desire to eat mushrooms, climb into tunnels, and try to save princesses. Likewise The Legend of Zelda has beckoned me to traverse the fields and forests in search of enchanted items. Not just games but all works of fantasy e.g. by Jules Verne, J.R.R Tolkien, George Lucas, Shakespeare, Gilgamesh, for many, many generations. I love the idea that even experiences purely in a dream state can be just as formative as "real-world." I'd say even more so, in some cases.

 

I see a major disconnect from this tradition in the gamer subculture that engages in multiplayer death-match first person shooter styles. The element of story and mystery is totally sold out in exchange for pure carnage, and cold, tactical predation. It's sad and a plague on the psyche and thus society.

 

Look up the Halo-verse. Or into the storyline of Borderlands...

 

 

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

Look up the Halo-verse. Or into the storyline of Borderlands...

 

 

 

Absolutely the genre is valid and proper for various types of stories. And simulated gun fighting is exciting and skill-honing just like any other setting may use medieval weapons or martial arts. My beef is with the people that turn it into some kind of competitive sport, getting all cutthroat against other people not just in-game characters. Even then, the vast majority of players are perfectly capable of keeping game and reality completely and healthily separated. Maybe overindulgence, like anything, is when the problems can begin to creep in.

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Nintendao
spelling

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

Those types of games must certainly accustom a kid to violence.  How could they not get desensitized?

 

Desensitized, and even worse, rewarded with high score and bragging rights for whomever makes the most kills. 

 

I’ve often heard that a high percentage of those mass shooting criminals are on some kind of antidepressants or similar medication. So needless to say someone already mentally unstable should be considered differently when it comes to whether they should get interested in guns or certain entertainments. But honestly, there are other stories of people like drowned their kids in the bathtub, or literally tried to eat someone. Gun culture doesn’t even factor into it. But most time, DRUGS do. We need to admit that even prescription drugs can be highly psychoactive in some cases, possibly tapping into that blurred line between reality and the soul not knowing the difference.

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Nintendao

[silent thunder]

My gut says no on games as the source.

 

Humans are violent pack mammals by nature, both within and particularly without their perceived tribes/packs.  And this within a world where life, to live must consume other life of one sort or another. 

 

Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, myriad others... all perfected their murder craft with no video games invented yet.

 

Humans are vicious mammals by nature in a world where in spite of disease, famine, pestilence, toxicity and the myriad of natural disasters, not to mention oppressive and uninhabitable environments, we still number over 7 billion.  As a top predator that seems unprecedented to me, (though my knowledge of the fossil history is woefully light). 

 

I have come to expect that our self-predation (war, homicide, suicide) may be one of nature's inborn self balance check.  Humans outbreed all natural occuring predators and thus have no natural means of balancing their capacity to expand.  So perhaps this is why such a propensity seems to arise 'from within our very midst'. 

 

I do wonder on the occasions this news comes to me, or I seek it out, if they didn't have guns to use... how many of them would have the fortitude to try and pull this shit with a bare blade in their hand?  If the violence was not able to be spent at a distance with a moment's glance, but instead must be up close, in hand's reach, where you could smell your intended victim's breath and feel their skin...

 

Utterly Wretched.  Such Lost Ones.

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I wonder if the same imprints caused by conditioning in early childhood are also caused by exposure to video games?  Does the soul know the difference, really, between actuality and a video game scenario?   Are internal reactions to stimulus of lesser impact because they're artificially created?.  I don't know, but I suspect not.

 

Or does the soul even know the difference between a nighttime dream and a daytime occurrence?  Is it possible that our currently manifested self is a mixture of not only externally caused imprints (by parents, punishment, etc) but also dream-caused imprints?  (Please just go along with the 'soul' concept, although it infers duality.  You know what I'm talking about ) 

 

I bring this up because of today's mass shooting in El Paso, TX.  Apparently the shooter posted  some right winged stuff; he posted it to a like- minded website.  On that particular site, there are not only right wing extremists, but extremists who use expressions such as those used in video gaming.  In today's particular case, he posted before he went out to shoot, and there were remarks like 'Rack up those points, bro' - things like that in response.  Perhaps the 'rack up the points' was a common phrase within the gaming circles.

 

I'm not a soccer mom.  I'm not here to put down video games.  But damn!  Is there any chance that the mass shooters of today could well have been negatively imprinted when younger by video games?

 

Probably someone's done a study on this - but I'm guessing we're more creative thinkers....

 

I find the bits I highlighted interesting and want to comment later on them ( gotta leave soon and take friend to airport , so  little time )

 

Study ?  You dont need a study. Even years back  a friend of mine went to another friend about her son ; " he asked me if I wanted a go on his game , it was some type of 'military lack ops BS  thi'ng. They had an interrogation room and  a prisoner of Asian appearance chained by his hands to the wall. There where various devices available to convince him to talk, ie, torture.  He offered the adult a 'go'. Who refused. The kid then tried various things on the prisoner but then got bared and chose a large sword and severed his arms, leaving the hands in the chains and the body dropped to the floor.

 

he asked the mother if she knew her son played it.

 

"Oh , all the kids are doing stuff like that now .

 

 

You know ....      many years ago there was this 'coming apocalypse '  thing .   There was even an apocalypse party I went to . .

 

People seemed surprised when I started telling them its already here, and has been for a while .

 

The slow apocalypse  .   

 

 

But anyway .... chin up .... its a new day .

 

(How the  hell to we actually   survive ?

[manitou]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

 

Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, myriad others... all perfected their murder craft with no video games invented yet.

 

 

 

 

And I'm guessing that all these guys were older than the current shooters.  There isn't even as good a reason as "I've gotta conquer Asia" or something as far as these kids go.  It's murder for murder's sake.  It seems to me that something has changed.  If violent games repeatedly played over and over don't desensitize these young people, I would be very surprised.  But if that's the case, then the onus goes back on the parents.  Is it even possible to monitor your kid's entertainment these days??

[Nintendao]

It's gotta at least be a factor. Many a Tetris whiz has grown up to be some kind of engineer. I'm sure lots of kids out there signed up for Karate class due in part to an interest Street Fighter II. Back in '99 the original Columbine massacre punks were well known to be huge fans of Doom. The games out today are more intense and realistic. These are probably "chicken-or-egg" examples, though, as people already predisposed to violence would naturally like violent games way too much. It's not the games that made the person violent. It feeds off of each other though. To feel the satisfaction and sheer power of the click-click-Boom of a virtual shotgun makes even the nerdliest among us wonder what the real thing might be like. All that being said, I'd agree that it's not fair to vilify the games themselves, but are definitely yet another thing to keep an eye on.

 

2 hours ago, manitou said:

the onus goes back on the parents.  Is it even possible to monitor your kid's entertainment these days??

 

One thing I find really sad is since so many parents these days both have to work full time just to make ends meet, and the kid is too often left exposed to fend for themselves in a lot of ways.

 

On this point I quickly descend right back into the ongoing struggles with economics, politics, media, gun control, mental health, you name it

 

I think @silent thunder has again hit on something deeper than any of this, how humanity has simply grown too huge to be able to exist without some small percentage of it destroying itself through various evil..

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Nintendao

[OldDog]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, myriad others... all perfected their murder craft with no video games invented yet.

 

While I agree somewhat with your reasoning, these historical monsters had imprints of their own. We will never know the nature of those imprints but we can be sure they existed. Something caused them to develop as they did.

 

I have no doubt that our "entertainment", whether it be video games, movies, fantasy stories, whatever, is making an imprint. The thing with it is that with advances in technology these media, as source material for imprints, are much more readily and broadly available. Much greater numbers of people are being exposed. Can you imagine what we might have ended up with had the imprints that produced Hitler and Pol Pot had had the ability to imprint on thousands.

 

Also, it is more than just desensitization, I think. In these fantasy worlds unreal ethics and behaviors are acceptable, even necessary to participate successfully. So, how does someone exposed to these fantasy worlds make the distinction,  the switch back to our other reality. I can't help but believe that the ethics and behaviors will carry over. Maybe not in the numbers generated but the likes of Hitler or Pol Pot but with the potential for there to be more instances on a smaller scale. Hence 249 ... as reported elsewhere ... such instances.

 

The even more disturbing notion is whether this could be humanity self-correcting. Now that's really frightening. If true, it might mean it is beyond our control! That is really sobering.

[manitou]

35 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

 

The even more disturbing notion is whether this could be humanity self-correcting. Now that's really frightening. If true, it might mean it is beyond our control! That is really sobering.

 

Self-correcting from what specifically?  You don't mean self-destructing?

 

I've thought about the out of control thing, if only because worldwide communications is now instantaneous.  It's like time is on steroids, it is certainly traveling at warp speed.  But what I do believe to be true, if self-correcting, is that there is an equal amount of really good things happening that we don't hear about.  That, to me, would be self-correcting.  And I actually do believe that to be true, if for no reason other than the fact that the action of the Dao is reversion.  I assume that means reversion back to the One.  'It' must know what 'it' is doing.  

[Nungali]

regarding if 'the soul' knows the difference .  let's just call the faculty the self, for simplicity.  There must be some function in the self that allows it to distinguish memories of real events from dreams, games and fantasies .   This faculty, at times, and in some doesnt work as well as it could .   Usually, when we make a mistake , we can soon rectify it ;  "   Didn't I see Bill yesterday ?  .....  < thinks > , oh no, that was a dream . "

 

A friend of mine has it bad,  and different , they have constructed their own  version of some events that are just not true .  I even explained it to them and they agreed, and came to agreement with me about what really happened .  A year later they have slipped back into their old 'memory' . 

 

Programming .   Thats what happens   to us .  We dont really learn deeply, unless its through programming or multiple sense recognition.  People have been programming each other ever since modern HSS. We get evidence of it from the caves at Lascaux  and onwards up to the preset day ; generally in what we call an 'initiation ceremony' - dramatic ritual, 'theatre' ,  noise, colour and image, repetition, physical actions and sensations, etc . all come together to make changes in the psyche . people have known this for a long time , basically, it is trying to emulate a 'life experience' ,  emulate something that happened in 'real life' , but in a way so that it sinks in,  becomes part of the programme .

 

Nowadays they use the same principles in  VR / AR  learning  , they have discovered this is a super quick and efficient way of 'teaching '  and programming  people .

 

Playing  a computer game for hours on end  is very similar and the more bells and   ribbons on it ;  colours, flashing lights,  sounds , 3D  etc .   the more effect it is .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality

 

 

and when you get really good 'on screen '   ;        https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/jobs/army/drone-operator

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

YES ! 

 

 

 

[OldDog]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Programming

 

Yes, interesting line of thought.

 

The way we learn and become efficient at something is by repeatedly working the pathways required to perform the something. When we have "learned" something, we no longer have to think hard about how to do it. We can then simply give the action over to a well worked pathway.

 

Perhaps the reason why VR/AR works so effectively is that it takes place in a controlled environment where real consequences of actions don't have to be taken into consideration in the learning. Indeed, one can substitute unreal consequences that support the goal of the learning. VR and AR are not RR.

Edited August 5, 2019 by OldDog

[OldDog]

8 hours ago, manitou said:

Self-correcting from what specifically?

 

Indeed! Having written that just before bedtime that thought kept me awake for a while. I have not exhausted that line of thinking yet. It may be one of those things that has to steep a while.

 

I certainly don't ... want ... to say self-distructing ... I dont think. Although I have to admit the image of lemmings did cross my mind.

 

The thought that keeps coming to the foreground is that the introduction of artificial, fantasy based experiences means that we are developing reactions to conditions that do not necessarily occur in reality. How will they express themselves.

[manitou]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

YES ! 

 

 

 

 

Not sure I'd call dad a 'psycho dad' as in the title.

 

That kid was either severely addicted to the games, or the whole thing was a set-up.  Incredible.

 

Maybe it does have something to do with getting a job.  Maybe some kids have too much time on their hands and not enough responsibility.  I would think it's largely a problem of both folks working, or a single parent working a couple jobs.  So many ways for kids to get themselves into trouble now.  I'm glad I'm not having to grow up today.  I would have followed the path of darkness for sure, at that age of defiance and rebellion.

[forestofclarity]

I'm at a certain age now to have lived through several moral panics. The following have all been blamed for violence in my lifetime:

 

- Dungeons & Dragons

- Heavy Metal

- Rap music

- television

- movies

- video games

 

Usually, the culprit is often linked to thing young people like to do. 

 

Quite frankly, by now the world should have been destroyed by millions of psychopaths who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s. But instead, violent crimes are down in the U.S.:

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/03/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

 

Maybe video games lead to decreased violence? 

 

It appears the whole thing is a myth. It is an easy talking point to deflect from the real issue, in my opinion, which is gun control: 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/analysis-why-its-time-to-stop-blaming-video-games-for-real-world-violence

 

[liminal_luke]

I think video games are a little bit like chocolate: a huge problem for some, an innocent indulgence for others.  It´s easy to imagine that all that fantasy killing is harmful.  How could it not be?  Still, many people enjoy them and I hate to come down hard against something many kids (of all ages) find fun.  Personally, I´ve never understood the appeal.  Not even as a youngster.  But most of us have our vices and one of mine is reality TV; I must have watched every episode of Project Runway, many multiple times. I´d wager that Project Runway has led to at least as many violent deaths as Street Fighter 4.   

[manitou]

8 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

- Dungeons & Dragons

- Heavy Metal

- Rap music

- television

- movies

- video games

 

 

 

 

Rock and roll

Elvis' hips

The Blues

Marijuana

[silent thunder]

My suspicion is that though the methods and tools used to instill violence have become more accessible and unfortunately, exponentially more effective... the motives of, and folks inclined in using them are all too ancient and fully human.

 

 

my stance on violence and weapons is essentially expressed in my take on verse 31

 

Weapons; tools of pain,
used for violence and fear,
wise men abhor them.

 

Yet in direst need
and if compelled will use them,
with utmost restraint.

 

Peace, highest value.
When the peace has been shattered
who can be content?

 

Glory in fighting?
Those who delight in killing
do not know true self.

 

Your foes not demons.
Simple beings like yourself.
Sage desires no harm.

 

No victory dance.
Victory by force, no joy.
How rejoice in this?

 

Sage battles gravely,
completely, yet with sorrow.
Like tending a grave.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by silent thunder
add the verse and murder a grammar goblin (without mercy

[johndoe2012]

Video games (and movies) make an energetic imprint in your mental energy body which makes an impact but does not turn us into monsters. It can be easily cleared with the right healing tools.

 

If it was video games that was the root cause then both Europe and Asia would have shootings like in the US. 

 

Gun ownership has gone down from 1973 to 2014 - 47% to 31% but mass shootings are up

 

http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS Reports/GSS_Trends in Gun Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/05/more-deadlier-mass-shooting-trends-america/

 

I think there multiple reasons for the shootings, some are copy-cats, some are fed up of feeling rejected/useless resulting in rage attacks. I think the militarization of society plays a role together with drug use, bad education, societal breakdown 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-developing-nation-regressing-economy-poverty-donald-trump-mit-economist-peter-temin-a7694726.html

 

etc etc. 

 

 

 

[thelerner]

It'd be interesting to study the 'fringe'. Groups most liable to turn fantasy play into dark reality.   The forums(8chan), chat sites and comment sections that glorify violence and racism.  How many of the participants are role playing, how many are inspired. 

 

Perhaps the Red Flag bill, if it comes to fruition could help.  It'll certainly keep authorities busy for awhile. 

https://www.apnews.com/bdb661de1fe14e58951102349d5d44be

 

"..HOW DOES A RED FLAG LAW WORK?

In general, red flag or “extreme risk protection order” laws allow courts to issue temporary orders barring someone from possessing guns based on some showing of imminent danger or a risk of misuse.

State laws vary, but most stipulate that only specific people — usually family or household members — may petition a court for an extreme risk protection order. In some cases, a preliminary order may be granted without prior notice to the person who is the subject of the order.

 

Such an order typically is brief, ranging from a few days to about three weeks. Once the person who is alleged to pose a risk of gun violence has been given an opportunity to respond, a more permanent order may be granted, typically for up to a year.

Importantly to Graham and other supporters, before an order can be entered, some factual showing must be made that the subject of the order poses a risk of using a firearm to harm themselves or others.."

 

 

 

kids and gaming

Personally there were video games we considered too violent for our kids and didn't allow them in the house.  When they older we allowed more.. by 15 or 16 we'd allow Assassins Creed but still not Grand Theft Auto.  Cartoonish violence seemed better then more realistic showing.  My two boys were into Team Fortress II, cartoon violence.. and group play.   Heroic action seemed better then playing a thug, though w/ game like Assassins Creed blurs the line.

 

I thought the kids learned things from the game  Advanced strategy, indepth planning, working with others.. fun interactive game play.  In todays world, with smart phones and portable computers, keeping a kid from playing a violent game (or seeing porn) is a tough job, maybe impossible if they want it.

Edited August 8, 2019 by thelerner

[Everything]

You yourself already know the difference as you pointed it out, so asking if the soul knows the difference? It's more like the soul makes the difference, then you allow yourself to catch up with the greater knowing of your soul to realise the variety of which you are free to choose from evermore, as you cocreated all of it.

 

You see, playing a game is simply for innocent harmless fun, it's about as intense as playing a game of chess. Shooting people, is not so fun. Infact, if your soul thought of shooting people as fun, you would feel absolutely wonderful when you shot people. Infact, you would go to the gun store on a daily basis, and do a daily shooting and murder of people. And infact, further more so, every single human on the planet would do this on a daily basis aswell. And furthermore so, infact, doctors would announce the health benefits of shooting and murdering people on a daily basis. Why? Cause it would be fun. But it's not fun. You can feel the difference, because you cocreate the evermore greater realisation together with your soul. You can feel the difference, because you can choose to denie your greater being and becoming only for yourself, but your soul, will never join you in on that, they just continue to add more clarity to all the greater knowing you come to request the evermorness of through all of that. And so you would be feeling bad temporarily, while thinking you have to go to the gun store AGAIN today, and shoot people AGAIN today.... ugh... What a tiresome life! I really don't like this! Because my soul doesn't really wanna be doing this right now. And I am an extension of my soul, so why not trust my heart? And simply go buy some flowers instead and lay them next to the beings who went into non-physical, out of love, compassion, respect, and honor. Period.

 

Cause they went there ahead of us, wether we like it or not, however they did, is none of our business, just another excuse to go, and that they went, is especially none of our business, it is between them and their Source alone. And the children, they come after us. And we are all still here and now, evermore, being and becoming. In full harmony with the source of all creation.

 

Especially when someone dies love is required. Not because it will benefit the beings who died, they have come to realise that love FULLY. But because it will BENEFIT US, to learn how to love unconditionally. Don't you feel free, to live your life to the fullest as who it is you truely are as all that you truely are being and becoming evermore, in full harmony with the whole of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore? When you love and respect and honor and cherrish the being's who've come to full realisation? What brings you closer to the SOURCE OF ALL CREATION, then loving those who come from there more fully HERE AND NOW flowing through and to us more fully aswell! How loving is that?! Calling us forth to all being and becoming evermore. As one with the eternal calling of Source. You gotta love them for who they are NOW! and NOW! And all that they are being and becoming evermore! You truely will always be here and now... Cause there is no difference, unless we make one. And then we think death is a punishment... That's the most stupid thing I've ever heard. If that was truely true, there would be no death. But there is death, because death is not a bad a thing. AT ALL. If you know what death truely is, you would not give the death penalty to people you hate. You would infact beg them to live just one more day, please... 

[C T]

On 8/8/2019 at 4:48 PM, thelerner said:

 

 

 

 

kids and gaming

Personally there were video games we considered too violent for our kids and didn't allow them in the house.  When they older we allowed more.. by 15 or 16 we'd allow Assassins Creed but still not Grand Theft Auto.  Cartoonish violence seemed better then more realistic showing.  My two boys were into Team Fortress II, cartoon violence.. and group play.   Heroic action seemed better then playing a thug, though w/ game like Assassins Creed blurs the line.

 

 

Might be worth bearing in mind that loonie in El Paso quoted trump, not Grand Theft Auto.... not Street Fighter... not Mortal Kombat... not Assassins Creed.