Mass shootings

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

This was released in regard to the Dayton shooting. 

 

Yes... why I quoted Ralis's guess  

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, dawei said:

 

Yes... why I quoted Ralis's guess  

 

But ralis was talking about the El Paso shooting...

[Zork]

26 minutes ago, C T said:

 

When there's a majority of society being exposed to the same, and a high percentage not swayed by some of the inherent fantastical contents by having enough common sense and moral aptitude to be able to exercise discernment, then the perversions of, and subsequent acting upon such by a minority necessitates further scrutiny. Personal responsibility is paramount because thats where the source of seeking understanding of motives lies, more so where significant discrepancies are noted. Looking into these discrepancies may clarify why some are unable to keep certain destructive attributes from taking over their personalities. Their rage can be suddenly triggered by something totally random and trivial. Usually preceded by some fundamental neurosis that keeps the potential for destruction very much in play in the background, just waiting for that one moment where all the triggers seem to go off at the same time. 

There are places that i have in mind (don't ask) that have a huge concentration of either legal or illegal firearms and no mass shootings have ever happened.

 

Easy access to weapons is only the tip of the iceberg. You need to undo 50+ years of TV brainwashing.

 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

The El Paso terrorist was using an AR 15 assault rifle and my guess is the Dayton Ohio terrorist used the same weapon. 

 

31 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

But ralis was talking about the El Paso shooting...

 

Was not the same weapon

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by dawei

[ralis]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

But ralis was talking about the El Paso shooting...

 

Thanks! I was assuming it was an AR-15 used in Dayton which is the weapon of choice for alt-right domestic terrorists.

[ralis]

1 minute ago, dawei said:

 

 

Was not the same weapon

 

 

Will you stop nitpicking! Same weapon means AR-15, in which I meant same kind of weapon.

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Thanks! I was assuming it was an AR-15 used in Dayton which is the weapon of choice for alt-right domestic terrorists.

 

Np.  I'm all for banning some weapons but think they'll just find them illegally or use another. 

 

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

Will you stop nitpicking! Same weapon means AR-15, in which I meant same kind of weapon.

 

I was really trying to get Ilum to understand what I was referring to.  She didn't seem to grasp that while you mentioned EL Paso my post was really about the second part of your sentence.

[wandelaar]

31 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/video-games-violence-guns-explainer/

 

The article is clearly biased. But yes - the relation is subtle and complicated. For if there were large direct effects, than mass shootings would happen on a massive scale. The latter isn't the case so the general effect of playing shooter games has to be small. But this might be different for already disturbed individuals. Has any relevant research been done on the latter? 

[C T]

14 minutes ago, Zork said:

There are places that i have in mind (don't ask) that have a huge concentration of either legal or illegal firearms and no mass shootings have ever happened.

 

Easy access to weapons is only the tip of the iceberg. You need to undo 50+ years of TV brainwashing.

 

Same point I was making, basically, although not in full agreement with attribution of primary cause to brainwashing, via TV and what not. 

[ilumairen]

 

6 minutes ago, dawei said:

I was really trying to get Ilum to understand what I was referring to.  She didn't seem to grasp that while you mentioned EL Paso my post was really about the second part of your sentence.

 

People got shot. A woman died using her body as a shield for her baby.. 

 

This is what I "grasp" - a phrase which btw irritates the hell out of me when spoken to or about me by a man. Yeah, I've still got some issues.. 

[C T]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

The article is clearly biased. But yes - the relation is subtle and complicated. For if there were large direct effects, than mass shootings would happen on a massive scale. The latter isn't the case so the general effect of playing shooter games has to be small. But this might be different for already disturbed individuals. Has any relevant research been done on the latter? 

 

Yes, its too flimsy to assign primary causation to violent content from video games. 

Those who are prone to destructive actions have complex, volatile psychological factors all waiting for that rare moment where suddenly all the dots (the intents) connect at once - this causes the exaggerated outward expression of what is essentially an internal conflict thats been brewing since who knows when. 

[Earl Grey]

23 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

The article is clearly biased. But yes - the relation is subtle and complicated. For if there were large direct effects, than mass shootings would happen on a massive scale. The latter isn't the case so the general effect of playing shooter games has to be small. But this might be different for already disturbed individuals. Has any relevant research been done on the latter? 

 

Yes, and the results are not enough to satisfy those like Jack Thompson who insist that video games are murder simulators as they assume.

 

I don't believe they would satisfy you though as I found out from the video game sites reporting on those studies from Mayo Clinic (will check if it was them or another group) and others. 

 

In my personal experience with a lot of anger and playing violent games, it's a totally different thing when I've held actual guns and been in real fights. A gun from Doom or CounterStrike does not prepare anyone for holding an actual gun, even in a shooting range, and in my case, in self-defense during a very unfortunate encounter in a lawless country. The violence in Mortal Kombat or other fighting games bemuses me these days because when I played them as a youth, the decapitations and disembowelments were funny to a teenager, but to an adult who is already in his 30s with close to two decades now having dealt with muggings and assaults, none of them were anything I thought about nor did they influence me in the moment, for my focus was on the sudden unexpected altercations erupting. 

[ralis]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Shortly after it was invented, I imagine..

 

:recalling a scene from an historically inaccurate depiction of Cesare Borgia receiving a gun from da Vinci:

 

 

Exactly! The human species has devised the most insidious means of mass killing, which may be our downfall. 

[wandelaar]

@ Earl Grey

 

Thank you for the information. There is probably at the moment too little information/research to decide the issue, so I will leave it at that.

[Zork]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Same point I was making, basically, although not in full agreement with attribution of primary cause to brainwashing, via TV and what not. 

Where do you attribute the mass shootings at?

If not the media then what?

[thelerner]

Gun control isn't in the cards these days.  Even intelligent mild recommendations.  I'd like to have bullets numbered and registered but thats probably pie in the sky.  Maybe shooting ranges could have cheaper unmarked projectiles, but for hunting and self defense, you shoot it, we know quickly who and when purchased.

 

I wonder if the best we can do is better fund Mental health care and social work.  For society and social media to be better looking for signs potential perpetrators.  Here's low lying fruit, politicians not make inflammatory statements that may fuel the deranged.  That sending threatening emails and online comments have negative repercussions.   

Edited August 4, 2019 by thelerner

[ralis]

Does he speak out against this? No! He pushes the narrative of hate and violence!

 

 

 

[C T]

2 hours ago, Zork said:

Where do you attribute the mass shootings at?

If not the media then what?

 

Dont you think attributing it squarely on the media sounds too convenient? Without absolving the media of all responsibility, I feel its vital to consider other variables too. 

 

Haven't had any opportunity to profile a live mass shooter, but have done some study & practical work on criminal profiling in the past, enough to know that the circle of analysis extends fairly wide, and gradually gets narrowed as things begin to piece together. Each individual is different, just as two siblings with identical exposure to a singular environment while young could, later in life, develop distinctly individualistic traits while also sharing some commonalities, of course. 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by C T

[sean]

 

Just a hunch. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sean

 

[Spotless]

In the USA in the 1990's the vast majority of sniper type killings and pre-meditated killing took place by the religious right. Killing at abortion clinics and the like - they turned the corner and decided quite clearly that this was a life saving activity and not "Killing" in the normal sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States

It was the resurgence of Killing for God.  (Trump is in this sense someone who could be considered distasteful but he is "killing for God" everything the "liberal zombies" have taken away (according to them and the Ralf Reed's that deliver their vote).

 

Timothy McVeigh and his two co-conspirators fanned some open flames and also had a bible in the mix:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

 

The pro-gun stuff really started taking off after the Waco disaster.

 

The Apocalypse stuff started going crazy near the "end of the world" in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003 and the latest for certain date 2012.   Look up "Prepers" - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=crazy+doomsday+preppers+

 

This was when TONS of American's started to stockpile guns and ammo and this is when tons of Americans started to think in terms of collateral damage and "the evil ones" on the wrong side of god - on the wrong side of America - On the wrong side of everything that did not have a flag on it.

 

Then with the unsung gun seizures during the Katrina disaster under Republican President Bush Jr. - (guns were taken by local, state and Federal Troops from law abiding citizens) the pro-gun people began in earnest opening up gun carry laws like crazy during the Obama years. We now have looser gun laws that at any time in our "united" history.

 

The religious right now does not mind killing in the name of the lord, considers carrying guns a part of the near future apocalypse and as insulation from the "LGBT" zombie masses. They clearly would support Trump if he killed somebody in cold blood during the day and under the cover of everything they are constantly working to undermine anything that is free from their religiosity - including our textbooks and how science is taught (against).

 

Killing, lying, cheating - grabbing pussy - God works in strange ways - sometimes shitting on everything Jesus is purported to have taught is apparently just what the preacher asked for.

Many christian preachers in the USA openly speak of Democrats as the devils work or as pure evil - this is relatively common.

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

On a further note for those of you in other countries - we here in the USA don't allow pictures of our dead soldiers coffins during "war" or oil wars or what ever. We don't allow for graphic pictures of our soldiers on the field - we have made war very clean and even purchased a great deal of fire power from independent soldiering groups during those wars. We even lowered the IQ standards to below what a bus driver is required to have in order to have more and easier recruits for those "wars". 

 

In other words - we spend more on war than all other countries pretty much combined and see nothing and know nothing - but we do have the very best most violent games - some of which were created with the support and funding of the US military to help them recruit during the oil wars - as John McCain and Alan Greenspan called them.

[Spotless]

It is no wonder we have an opioid epidemic - how else do you put up with a country like this?

[Zork]

3 hours ago, sean said:

 

Just a hunch. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sean

 

Yes but white supremacy is just a meme. How do memes spread and proliferate?

 

8 hours ago, C T said:

Dont you think attributing it squarely on the media sounds too convenient? Without absolving the media of all responsibility, I feel its vital to consider other variables too. 

 

Haven't had any opportunity to profile a live mass shooter, but have done some study & practical work on criminal profiling in the past, enough to know that the circle of analysis extends fairly wide, and gradually gets narrowed as things begin to piece together. Each individual is different, just as two siblings with identical exposure to a singular environment while young could, later in life, develop distinctly individualistic traits while also sharing some commonalities, of course. 

Of course there are variables but when media project the image of "thousands of mexicans waiting in the borders to grab american jobs and inflict violence on good patriot americans", what do you think the reaction will be?

 

When one sees the obscene amount of wealth and luxury that some people shamelessly display on instagram, what do you think it triggers to the less fortunate that never really had a chance?

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, sean said:

 

Just a hunch. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sean

 

 

This is quite true, though with some caveats.

 

Video Games, Television, Comic Books

No simple response. Really, it depends. In Nigeria, the violence against "witches" comes from even pastors saying that movies about demons prove that evil exists. Yes, fiction. This isn't so much as the media itself but the level of education and individual development. There are also a lot of gamers, nerds, and couch potatoes who use these mediums as escapism because the actual thing itself is either too much work or too scary for them. 

 

Guns

Yes, guns aren't necessarily the problem in of themselves, the common argument is the ease of access they have, but what most people don't understand is a lot of gun nuts treat them like toys and like to shoot cans, skeet, or go to the driving range, if not hunting. Some of the most responsible and pacifist people I met were those who loved guns believe it or not because they were taught well and were fairly nice individuals. 

 

A story: at the shooting range, there were three individuals who didn't know basic safety and kept their fingers on the trigger, were pointing at each other and themselves, taking pictures, and were more obsessed with taking photos of themselves posing. Everyone cleared out in five minutes and the rangemaster had to give them a ten-minute orientation to safety, then told them to not come back until they were a little more disciplined because even if guns are like toys to kids, they are not to be treated as toys irresponsibly. 

 

Does this mean I think gun control is not necessary? Hell no. It means that I think it should have more regulation and more responsible training for people to own and use guns, if that's even on the table because if someone leaves their gun in an unlocked drawer, their kids could find them! Let's not mention the black market for guns! You can have the most well-educated population and responsible, but the access and the black market are the problem!

 

Muslims

There is absolutely no correlations between more gun violence and more Muslims, unless you're talking about them being targets for hate crimes. 

 

So no, Muslims do not cause violence, considering it's a pacifist faith. 

 

Immigrants

See response above about being targets for hate crimes. "Don't shit where you eat" if you want to stay. 

 

Mental Illness

The issue of people having mental illness risks causing stigma and alienating people from their community more. This is essentially one step from criminalizing mental illness. What we need is reform and more care, education, and compassion for people with mental illness rather than just writing them off, because when they seek support, who is to say that support won't come from 4chan and 8chan or crazy YouTube extremists?

 

Far Right Populist Ideology

This is the big reason that all of the above factors are considered reasons for gun violence. It ultimately boils down to pointing fingers and blaming everyone else for the problems in their life, and yes, while they feel abandoned and forgotten and the walls of their reality are tumbling down, they refuse to look inwards. 

 

Video games, comics, and television are evil because they push people away from God. Qigong and yoga are Satanic because you draw power from the devil and other deities who don't exist when there is one God. Guns will protect you from bad people with guns. Immigrants and Muslims are evil because they bring ideas and values different from ours and want to steal the land we stole from the Native Americans. Mentally sick people should just be given more meds or locked up and forgotten. 

 

The Far Right does not want to take responsibility, the Far Right wants someone to take care of everything for them. 

 

This attitude has historically proven to be the end of any functioning republic or democracy by looking at Caligula and Nero. The strongman ideology does not work because he is not out to represent the populists who want him to fix their problems for them, he's only out for himself (or herself if one looks at Southeast Asian and Chinese histories). 

 

Case example: the Duterte supporters in Manila want him to fix pollution, crime, poverty, and corruption, but what I saw instead one morning was a guy with a DU30 bumper sticker and all sorts of signs showing his love for Duterte, stops in the middle of a pedestrian lane, throws out his garbage, bribes a traffic officer to leave him alone, and shouts at the homeless children begging him when they knock on his car window for some change. No desire to recognize that they contribute to the problem more than the people they are blaming, or that they are making no effort to contribute to positive change themselves. 

[gendao]

14 hours ago, ilumairen said:

But ralis was talking about the El Paso shooting...

Hmm, I thought this thread was about the US military abroad???