Define ignorance

[ilumairen]

37 minutes ago, Mskied said:

That is my question too.   If we say that what is right is based on societies interpretation of what needs to be done, then we accept that as a community, we all have a voice in what is happening.  If there is no absolute moral truth that stems from enlightenment, then it varies depending upon other things, like amount of resources, or public opinion.  In a community all parts rely upon one another, so how much say do I have on what goes on?  With taxes, this is my money too, and with liberty, some actions have consequences that drain on our taxes.  It is not just about wronging someones personal property, its about wronging the coffers of society.  We seem to allow certain things taking place at upper levels of production and technology while the common person has less freedom.  Certainly there should be a standard for this type of thought; uniform truth for uniform law- logic based on enlightened concepts of what is right.

 

For instance, I have no right to say what you should not do, but the Law does- and the Law is based on what is right to protect the rights of others, and yet when it comes to my tax dollars- which I pay to care for public works, and now health care- it is something I co-operate with because I take advantage of it too.  Do you think the time will come in the future that certain behaviors which are unhealthy will not be paid for with tax dollars?  Right now drug addiction- and the drugs are illegal, is being paid for by tax dollars- is this right?  If they are caught doing the drug they go to jail but if they fall ill from doing it we pay?  That doesn't make sense.  

 

There is also the problem with my labor and the price of your goods.  I have little choice in how much you pay me, and I have little choice in what you charge for your goods.  In a community that decides right and wrong, a community that should recognize that we are a united people that rely upon one another to create a working whole- shouldn't all parts be covered in consideration?  They say that if we don't like the price, we don't have to buy, but the way our wage system is set up, we increase the wealth to certain positions so that they can afford the price of the object while the lower class has no access to those goods.  They obviously expect to sell X amount of the good at XXX price, a price that is affordable by the wealthy alone- so they factor in how many wealthy people need to buy it at XXX rather than pricing it at XX to sell more to the lower class too.  The lower class are being ignored, essentially- and this is the labor force on whose back all of this relies upon.  With public health care, the lower class has no way of paying for the escalating costs.  On services that we all need to survive, we should have some sort of % control over the profit from said service.  Shouldn't we all have some say in this?  

 

The alternative, of course, is that there is no moral truth, and that anything I want and can get away with- whether by law or not, is allowable- and I fear that this is the truth from top to bottom to some degree.  So where is enlightenment, and what is it good for exactly?  It seems to be loose rules for the people that are willing to follow rules obey, and the rest of them get away with what they like.  There is no justice, really, except when certain powers captivate the masses and stir their emotions to prosecute people in power.  So, is enlightenment even necessary?  Does it really "exist" or is the enlightened mind the one that knows the rules, and how to break them. getting away with whatever they can when they can?

 

I fear for our species and our people, because when the day comes that the less educated and less important lower class are no longer needed, there will be genocide.  Right now we are a pool- we are a resource, and we provide consumption and labor, but when the need for those positions are absent so too will the need for the lower class.  The lower class already is disposable, but what happens when we no longer need them to produce with their labor?  Is enlightenment really peace and security, or is it spawned by vicious predators that will one day execute the less deserving?

 

Oh my... 

 

First, let's say enlightenment is a huge grassy field surrounded by the forest of samsara. We rest, and are warmed by the Sun in this field. And sometimes we wander into the surrounding forest..

 

I don't mind wandering the forest with you, but find it would perhaps be useful to acknowledge we certainly are wandering in the forest, and not resting in the field. 

 

Have you considered how much the tax dollars you pay into the system are actually able to provide? In my own case, it honestly isn't a whole lot. And therefore, I honestly don't have much personal right imo, to claim some ownership or position of authority over anyone who may be recieving a few cents from me personally - which in itself is highly unlikely. I am a bit more inclined to "indict" the irresponsible governmental spending in other areas - of which there seem plenty we could focus upon.

 

BTW I very rarely read posts the length of yours... and now I seem to have written my own long post.. 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by ilumairen

[ilumairen]

9 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Angels have swords.  

 

To cut through... 

[Mskied]

I agree that my two cents isn't the most powerful pennies in the jar, but that isn't the point of my protest.  If we allowed the "movers and shakers" to make the rules, you can bet that those rules would include killing us when it suits them.  My point is that, as a whole- a species, a unified voice of enlightened people- enlightened as to what is Good- we all deserve to speak.  It seems like that is just a fairy tale....   that there is no "Good" and Truth no longer has a capital T, as was said.  I guess its a personal choice, and may God have mercy on whoever picks poorly.

[ilumairen]

15 minutes ago, Mskied said:

I agree that my two cents isn't the most powerful pennies in the jar, but that isn't the point of my protest.  If we allowed the "movers and shakers" to make the rules, you can bet that those rules would include killing us when it suits them.  My point is that, as a whole- a species, a unified voice of enlightened people- enlightened as to what is Good- we all deserve to speak.  It seems like that is just a fairy tale....   that there is no "Good" and Truth no longer has a capital T, as was said.  I guess its a personal choice, and may God have mercy on whoever picks poorly.

 

It kinda is the stuff of fairy tales - evil overlords able to execute on whim, and a unified voice of the people. 

 

In writing the above the Peasants Revolt came to mind. The peasants (which is somewhat a misnomer) were falsely placated through skillful manipulation of their own ideal imo.

 

And my own father was very clear about how any ideals I held could be manipulated and used to advantage.. 

 

It made the holding of ideals a bit more tenuous for me - and the ideals of others something of great curiosity and interest.

 

What would Truth with a capital T look like to you?

[Mskied]

Im a middle pillar, so I have two.  

 

Do What Thou Wilt

Love is the Law

[ilumairen]

16 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Im a middle pillar, so I have two.  

 

Do What Thou Wilt

Love is the Law

 

:hoping you get the playfulness and laughter behind this post:

 

What if what one whilst is smoking a pack of camels while receiving some form of govt assistance?

 

 

[manitou]

On 8/5/2019 at 6:24 AM, Mskied said:

That's not true.  You fight something to defeat it, and when it is dead, you are free.  

 

 

 

I see this differently.  If you are in contention with something or someone and fighting with it, that's because you have a button inside you that has not been dealt with.  Every time a situation comes up which rubs up against this button, you will be fighting against it again.  Killing it doesn't make you free.  It just gives you a little breathing room until the next situation comes up.

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

Well that's just the thing, I named it what someone else named it because that is what can be found popularly.  If I named it based on what it was for me, no one would know what Im talking about.

 

That just confuses things  as  people  ARE going to assume  it is , as it is described . 

 

Eg. In ritual magick, some use reverse pentagram to effect a 'higher spiritual level' of  elemental magic .  Some others  call it 'The Satanic Star' .   Would you use the  second term of someone else to describe the first explained usage ?   If so people are bound to see it as 'satanic'   or 'Faery ' or whatever tag you put on it .

 

And it is only named that iway n one tradition 'popularly' .

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

Sure, what it means to me and the names of what it meant to the author that had experience with it will be different, I actually have had little luck finding those explanations so I really cant speak about what it is to those authors, only to me, and for me, it was a key to other worlds and spirits.

 

Maybe read something a little deeper than a Faery tradition about it .

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

Ive posted some of my experiences here elsewhere.  I really cant coincide what Ive seen with what has been written, and I get the impression that most people that have used a system based off of the actual use of it don't actually have first hand experience with what it physically and psychicly did to me.

 

Thats because you used it to (or it just happened )  to trigger an internal and subjective experience   ( thats why I dont have a desire to go through your door - its YOUR door, your psyche ).    So it is bound to have a different effect .

 

But your observation is correct in that most people that write about all  aspects of  Magick, even books ,  seem to have little real and practical   first hand experience with it .  Unless it is  VERY simple forms .    

 

But even those with that experience are not going to  have 'first hand experience '  of what it did to you .

 

This is a huge misunderstanding in magick ; like the Luellen books on pathworking  , or those that take writings like The Vision and the Voice   ( which are personal experiences inside others psyche's ) as some type of map for the experiences  everyone else should be having .   There IS an overall map, and keys and triggers, but the details of it all in experience are wholly yours .

 

 

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

I gather its like anything: a symbol that has been granted meaning based on the research by the author- and really, that doesn't have to be similar from one case to the next. 

 

Yep.

 

 

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

 

Its like any identified symbol in nature- the actual meaning will vary based on the authors experience.

 

In a certain 'field'  ... there are 'accepted correspondences' , generally , otherwise delusion sets in .  

 

Systems * using 7 nearly always refer to planetary energies and their interplay , even when masked  ( eg, the first 7  lines or Chapters in Koran , the first 7  words in the Bible ) .

 

* See my post on DBs '  Maps and Systems of Numbers ' , describing some major ones ;  monism, duality, triplicity, 4 or 5 - the elements, 7- the planets , 12 - astrological ,  22 / 32 Kabbalah , 64 I ching   etc . and as you get higher , more is incorporated  eg . astology has 12 signs 7 planets in 3 and 4 modes ,  Kabbalah has  12, 7 and 3  -  signs planets and 'elements')

.

13 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

 

 

  Since my experience with it has been very hellish, and I haven't read anyone talk about the psychic Hell that happens when something like this is used,

 

Well, think it through a bit .  I have used it extensively , as I said it is tattooed over my heart chakra (and that was  a follow on from a rather huge , life changing initiation), yet I found it neither hellish nor psychic hell .   And apparently others have not either . So I cant attribute your experience to just " When something like this is used ' .  But mixing it up with faery tradition and whatever 'fly by the seat of your pants' method and practice you came up with might 'get you into trouble' .

 

I am assuming your initiation was  a 'self initiation' ?    Thats one way , but fraught with certain difficulties.    I find it helpful to have at least some direction and   bona fide training in  these matters .

 

 " Im curious to hear your explanations, and would ask to point me to some resources about it, as I said I have little real writing on the subject.   "

 

If you are interested in exploring its usage and other traditions, and also, as  a related but different subject , my particular uses of it , within THAT framework, start a new thread on it .

 

One thing I will say is here  though is , that in such matters, it is fairly advanced symbol and one should work with the pentagrams first - whose very usage is to  sort out the 'hellish stuff' first and form a base whereby how to deal with it if it arises later .   And even before that  certain realisations  are needed

 

I'd recommend starting with Liber O  , and note this bit especially ;

 

 

1. This book is very easy to misunderstand; readers are asked to use the most minute critical care in the study of it, even as we have done in its preparation.

 

2. In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

 

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

 

3. The advantages to be gained from them are chiefly these:
(a) A widening of the horizon of the mind.
(b) An improvement of the control of the mind.

 

4. The student, if he attains any success in the following practices, will find himself confronted by things (ideas or beings) too glorious or too dreadful to be described. It is essential that he remain the master of all that he beholds, hears or conceives; otherwise he will be the slave of illusion, and the prey of madness.

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib6

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

Angels have swords.  

 

Only becasue men imagine them with them 

[doc benway]

On 8/5/2019 at 7:33 AM, Mskied said:

I have a friend.  He emulates the trickster Gods and clown figures.  I recognize that he does this out of bitterness.  He thinks people are ignorant.  Im in the process of trying to enlighten him that giving in to wicked action, contradicting the very virtue that you admire to prove a point i.e. cynical action, is just as evil as the evil you are trying to expose.  I recently asked him how he sees people as ignorant, and Ill ask you the same question here.  There is much speculation on what enlightenment is, so I will ask too, what is enlightenment, as well as what is ignorance?

 

In the tradition I follow,  ignorance is considered to be not knowing who and what I am, and misidentifying with what I am not.

Enlightenment is realizing my true Nature and living from that perspective on a continuous basis.

[Mskied]

Nungali I apologize for naming the star when I have little knowledge of what they consider it.  I should have just said acute heptagram.  Otherwise it sounds like we are on the same page.  It was indeed a personal initiation, not exactly begun by me, but pursued by me after it was revealed.  I didn't have the time to study, it was seat of the pants, and it has taken 20 years to put these pants back on.  I agree that there is a general process to it, and it has taken a long time to reach that point, as the particular, based on my naivete and ignorance, had to be examined first.  Now that I am at the plateau, it doesn't hold much mystery, but that is because I still have yet to bend to a particular method.  I have really only learned a small amount in 20 years, but about myself?  I have examined it all, and I found some interesting general tidbits, as well as particular choices I made, and am well aware of our ignorant condition (mine probably a little more so than the average).

 

In the end Id say that I actually fall into the Jewish mystical tradition.  The visions and idea I began with were heavily Jewish.  Im no biblical scholar, but what I did carry, and what is laid out in genesis, follows along with the process I underwent.  As I said earlier, it seems that righteousness is something of a fallacy, though it is one that we will champion because the alternative is horrific to the weak and the kind.

 

Steve, I am in agreement with you.  A spiritual path should enlighten you about who you are and why you are, and what you will be and do.

[Nungali]

I also see another difficulty ;  what are we actually talking about here ?

 

'Enlightenment' .  - its an English word .  Lets go ety on it  ;

 

enlightened

Have you ever thought long and hard about a problem and then, suddenly, experienced an "ah-ha!" moment? If your answer is yes, then congratulations! You were enlightened or in possession of a clear understanding of what was otherwise mysterious.

The word enlightened comes from the Latin prefix en meaning "in, into" and the word lux meaning "light." Combine these meanings — "into the light" — and you're describing what it is that characterizes an enlightened person: a sense of clarity and understanding. People often seek to be enlightened spiritually, by taking pilgrimages, meditating, or looking to spiritual gurus like the Dalai Lama.

( The Blue highlighted bit seems close to what is often implied by the word in a  'spiritual ' sense .  But the definition here is lacking - it seems vague . )
 

adj having knowledge and spiritual insight

Synonyms:

educated

possessing an education (especially having more than average knowledge)

edified

instructed and encouraged in moral, intellectual, and spiritual improvement

informed

having much knowledge or education

Antonyms:

unenlightened

not enlightened; ignorant

 

Wiki has ; 

 

enlightenment (usually uncountable, plural enlightenments)

1. An act of enlightening, or the state of being enlightened or instructed.
2. A concept in spirituality, philosophy and psychology related to achieving clarity of perception, reason and knowledge.

 

and here in 2.  directly above  it defines  even spiritual enlightenment  as a clarity of perceptions and mentations . 

 

So to find a more specific term to what people really mean  we need to go into those  traditions where we get the idea about enlightenment from - often they are describing very specific states     and using specific  terminology in their language .

 

So if we are referring to that, we should use  those terms and language - even if one doesnt know the language one can look up a word  that is more specific than 'enlightenment   -  states  of  nirvana, satori, sammadhi  etc .

 

A closer word to some of these states, in the hermetic tradition seems to be ' illumined'  or  ' illuminated ' .  Buddhism and Vedanta have many terms for different states of mind or being  .  In hermetics, there are many too - 'Illumined' is also general , its just in hermetics and the western tradition 'specific types of illumination '  where expressed in visual symbols

 

 

 

 

So, in the English sense  enlightenment is basically being informed / instructed  in knowledge understanding and reason .   Where illumination is more a state .   But if we are referring to eastern traditions its best to use specific terms .

 

 

But then again, being very Mercurial , I might be b a bit too   specific about communications    

 

 

Spoiler

 

I also have a beef about the word meditation .

 

 

That can mean just about anything .

 

 - I saw a lama pull a beuty on people about that .  HA!

 

Hmmmmm .... come to think of it HE was trickster too and teaching by exposing people to their own assumptions and silyness , and boy did he rub it in !  and shick and actually physically scare people  - that was part of his plan - for effect !   I thought it was great .

 

But then again, he was a Lama  ... not some arsehole mate that  does it 'cause he thinks everyone   else is stupid     

 

Spoiler

 ... maybe prank him so gets to see how stupid he can be , in the 'right circumsstances'  .... I know I can be  .... in the 'right ' circumstances ...  I often astound myself    

 

 

[Nungali]

Spoiler

 

...  Hmmmmm     < thinks >   ....

 

     prank the Lama  ?

 

    

 

[Apech]

On 8/5/2019 at 12:33 PM, Mskied said:

I have a friend.  He emulates the trickster Gods and clown figures.  I recognize that he does this out of bitterness.  He thinks people are ignorant.  Im in the process of trying to enlighten him that giving in to wicked action, contradicting the very virtue that you admire to prove a point i.e. cynical action, is just as evil as the evil you are trying to expose.  I recently asked him how he sees people as ignorant, and Ill ask you the same question here.  There is much speculation on what enlightenment is, so I will ask too, what is enlightenment, as well as what is ignorance?

 

If enlightenment means seeing reality as it is ... then we are all ignorant ... so your friend is right (except this includes him as well).  To our ego-identified fallen selves Spirit will appear as a trickster - like the Roman Mercury but then he also guides the dead.

 

 

[Mskied]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

If enlightenment means seeing reality as it is ... then we are all ignorant ... so your friend is right (except this includes him as well).  To our ego-identified fallen selves Spirit will appear as a trickster - like the Roman Mercury but then he also guides the dead.

 

 

Well this is an interesting idea.  I used to be a trickster type as well- often pulling people out of their "illusions"- I mastered the art of turning the mind to see something new, and as you said, there is always something new to see, as we are all somewhat ignorant.  I did this because I had an objective that I didn't think was ignorant, and it seems to be the same one he has- we both wanted loving kindness to prevail.  I realized eventually that I was ignorant and stopped tricking people into seeing my way, and started to work with their way and showed my version of life in unison with theirs.  This worked well for me- for I wanted love, as does he- but for him, he is not finding it, where once I started to be transparent, I found plenty.  I was still ignorant though, because what I thought was love was also a weakness on my end- I was too kind; I should have been more firm in certain things.  That is why, I believe, I was initiated by the God into the Jewish mystical path- because they have a firmness, whereas mine was more Christian based.  Christianity is a wise tradition, for they know the ignorance and error we are prone to, but it too has a flaw- we have to hold people accountable at certain times, and that is when I realized that forgiveness should be granted when it is earned.  Now, you can say that there is no error, that all things are allowed and that the only one that sees the mistake is me- and that may be true, but I still see it, and if it isn't reconciled with my Will, then I will harbor resentment.  Life should be lived on my terms as well as theirs, and so if I need an apology, I should wait for it.  It is this way because I have my own measure of kindness, and I want to love kind people, and if I am not around kind people in my life, I will withhold my love.  I may still be ignorant, but it is my Will and my life, and I should choose.  I am more than willing to compromise as well, and admit folly and fault easily.  In relationships, this is a blessed state- where both parties see that there is error- and it matters less that we are all ignorant, and more that we both see it.  There may never be honest enlightenment, but life is better when both can agree, or agree that we do not know.  Playing the trickster gives the upper hand, and some people don't mind, but it is not self effacing always.  I found it is better to be frank when discussing feelings, for deception and game play only confuse the mind, and often, it is my mind that gets confused.  Kind of like cynicism leading to sincerity and gentleness- it is a cold and skeptical method to be gentle and warm, so why not just be gentle and warm?

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Well this is an interesting idea.  I used to be a trickster type as well- often pulling people out of their "illusions"- I mastered the art of turning the mind to see something new, and as you said, there is always something new to see, as we are all somewhat ignorant.  I did this because I had an objective that I didn't think was ignorant, and it seems to be the same one he has- we both wanted loving kindness to prevail.  I realized eventually that I was ignorant and stopped tricking people into seeing my way, and started to work with their way and showed my version of life in unison with theirs.  This worked well for me- for I wanted love, as does he- but for him, he is not finding it, where once I started to be transparent, I found plenty.  I was still ignorant though, because what I thought was love was also a weakness on my end- I was too kind; I should have been more firm in certain things.  That is why, I believe, I was initiated by the God into the Jewish mystical path- because they have a firmness, whereas mine was more Christian based.  Christianity is a wise tradition, for they know the ignorance and error we are prone to, but it too has a flaw- we have to hold people accountable at certain times, and that is when I realized that forgiveness should be granted when it is earned.  Now, you can say that there is no error, that all things are allowed and that the only one that sees the mistake is me- and that may be true, but I still see it, and if it isn't reconciled with my Will, then I will harbor resentment.  Life should be lived on my terms as well as theirs, and so if I need an apology, I should wait for it.  It is this way because I have my own measure of kindness, and I want to love kind people, and if I am not around kind people in my life, I will withhold my love.  I may still be ignorant, but it is my Will and my life, and I should choose.  I am more than willing to compromise as well, and admit folly and fault easily.  In relationships, this is a blessed state- where both parties see that there is error- and it matters less that we are all ignorant, and more that we both see it.  There may never be honest enlightenment, but life is better when both can agree, or agree that we do not know.  Playing the trickster gives the upper hand, and some people don't mind, but it is not self effacing always.  I found it is better to be frank when discussing feelings, for deception and game play only confuse the mind, and often, it is my mind that gets confused.  Kind of like cynicism leading to sincerity and gentleness- it is a cold and skeptical method to be gentle and warm, so why not just be gentle and warm?

 

Motivation is the thing.