What We Think We Know

[ilumairen]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

 Which school subscribes to that crazy content, I wonder.... 

 

The ghost of buddhism reflected in a hall of mirrors?

[C T]

Scary alright. 

[wandelaar]

@OldDog

 

Well - how could it even be otherwise? In the case described we will hear the arguments from the other camp, but we will not recognize them as arguments.

 

As for myself I am willing to expand my concept of what constitutes a legitimate argument, but only when it is demonstrated that the kind of argument in question indeed (in all probability) leads to new knowledge. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by wandelaar

[OldDog]

29 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

... but only when it is demonstrated that the kind of argument in question ...

 

So, whose criteria will we use ... ? 

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

So, whose criteria will we use ... ? 

 

Our own naturally!

[wandelaar]

Just now, wandelaar said:

Our own naturally!

 

I completely agree with this guy! Why use somebody else's criteria when there is no reason to do so?

[ilumairen]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

I completely agree with this guy! Why use somebody else's criteria when there is no reason to do so?

 

Once upon a time I would have also readily agreed with him. 

 

Then came this odd and unintended realization the criteria I believed to be "mine" was inherited from a number of sources. 

[OldDog]

Ok, here's a thought ...

 

Perhaps what we need to do is to seek the truth, wherever it may be .... rather than wait for the truth to be presented to us on our own terms.

 

Just sayin.

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, OldDog said:

Ok, here's a thought ...

 

Perhaps what we need to do is to seek the truth, wherever it may be .... rather than wait for the truth to be presented to us on our own terms.

 

Just sayin.

 

I'll be happy to do that, but how could one possibly tell what is truth and what falsehood without somehow using once's own understanding of the difference.

[manitou]

Just now, OldDog said:

Ok, here's a thought ...

 

Perhaps what we need to do is to seek the truth, wherever it may be .... rather than wait for the truth to be presented to us on our own terms.

 

Just sayin.

 

 

To 'Realize' the truth brings it within even further.  Like a big gulp of the realization of a truth - about ourselves.  The true wisdom will be  'self realized'.

[wandelaar]

37 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Once upon a time I would have also readily agreed with him. 

 

Then came this odd and unintended realization the criteria I believed to be "mine" was inherited from a number of sources. 

 

Is it a problem to have inhered ideas from others? I think we would be hardly human if as children we had no education, learned no language, etc. But as we grow up we can gradually make our own choices, and if need be throw away what we dont't like or need.

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Is it a problem to have inhered ideas from others?

 

It's not .... as long as you are not accepting those ideas blindly ... without some degree of critical analysis ... which can/should include using non-reasoned intuitve response ... gut feeling, if you will ... and most especially suspension of current beliefs.

 

One of the points of the linked article is that the world abounds with false information thst sounds perfectly legit on the surface ... But we have either lost ... or never had developed ... our ability to be critical at any level .... rational, intuitive or emotional. At any rate ... what we think we know ... regardless of source needs to be examined critically.

 

I reached exactly the point you did. What about what my parents taught me ... my formal education ... my cultural beliefs ... my religious training. That's when I realized that we are ... from birth, without choice ... absorbed into what the linked article calls echo chambers ... and that their are multiple overlapping echo chambers at work in our lives all the time. At what point do we begin to question what we think we know and subject it to critical scrutiny.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by OldDog

[wandelaar]

Yes - but we cannot throw away everything all at once, even if we wanted to. Critical evaluation is always a piecewise process. I don't believe there is a "pure me" somewhere inside that will appear as soon as I succeed in doing away with everything I ever learned. If such were possible than I would simply fall back to the state of a grown up baby unable to speak, reason or behave myself in public. We should - in my opinion - follow a middle way between pure traditionalism and pure criticism. Not because it's a middle way, but because both alternatives to it are absurd.

Edited August 11, 2019 by wandelaar

[C T]

I think the way to gain true insight is to gradually establish the discovery of self-imposed perimeters around a subject and the thoughts that follow, acknowledge the limitations and biases within that, and then begin to loosen the reference points until one finds a comfort level that enables one to be objective with secondary inputs (as in information gathering and exchanges). Only then can critical thinking serve its purpose. Where these reference points are found to be overly rigid, I cannot imagine any real understanding to occur. 

 

my2grains of salt. 

[C T]

Im only being nosey because i did not see any mention of how one's relationship with numerous reference points can have an impact on the subject.  

[wandelaar]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

Im only being nosey because i did not see any mention of how one's relationship with numerous reference points can have an impact on the subject.  

 

Could you please tell us what "one's relationship with numerous reference points" means?

[C T]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Could you please tell us what "one's relationship with numerous reference points" means?

 

It means exactly that - what we think we know is determined by how each individual relates to his or her acquired reference points. 

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, C T said:

It means exactly that - what we think we know is determined by how each individual relates to his or her acquired reference points. 

 

Nice - sounds impressive.

[C T]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Nice - sounds impressive.

 

Glad you think so. 

You would not be as impressed had your reference points been less rigid. 

[manitou]

40 minutes ago, C T said:

I think the way to gain true insight is to gradually establish the discovery of self-imposed perimeters around a subject and the thoughts that follow, acknowledge the limitations and biases within that, and then begin to loosen the reference points until one finds a comfort level that enables one to be objective with secondary inputs (as in information gathering and exchanges). Only then can critical thinking serve its purpose. Where these reference points are found to be overly rigid, I cannot imagine any real understanding to occur. 

 

my2grains of salt. 

 

Another way is to assume you have every character defect there is, and then go in search of it within your personal history, finding the source of the tendency.  Once we can 'see' it, it means we are separating from it.  Prior to knowing it was there, we were it.  To do this is to see ourselves as we truly are, not as we think we are in an idealized mind.

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Another way is to assume you have every character defect there is, and then go in search of it within your personal history, finding the source of the tendency.  Once we can 'see' it, it means we are separating from it.  Prior to knowing it was there, we were it.  To do this is to see ourselves as we truly are, not as we think we are in an idealized mind.

 

And this, as a practice, is entirely humbling...

[C T]

4 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Another way is to assume you have every character defect there is, and then go in search of it within your personal history, finding the source of the tendency.  Once we can 'see' it, it means we are separating from it.  Prior to knowing it was there, we were it.  To do this is to see ourselves as we truly are, not as we think we are in an idealized mind.

 

Yes, this work, the search, is the relationship I mentioned earlier, which wandelaar found impressive. 

Had there been more flexibility, he wouldn't have been so easily impressed. 

Being impressed is usually a sign of the end of openness, of inquiry, of discovery.

 

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Is it a problem to have inhered ideas from others?

 

Sometimes inherited ideas can be distorting and hard to recognize. 

 

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think we would be hardly human if as children we had no education, learned no language, etc.

 

Yes, I've come to the conclusion the "onion" cannot be entirely peeled. 

 

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But as we grow up we can gradually make our own choices, and if need be throw away what we dont't like or need.

 

And I agree with this, although I generally use the phrases "let go" or "set back down."  But tendencies aren't always recognized - without some form of catalyst anyway, such as what was described in the article. 

[ilumairen]

27 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Nice - sounds impressive.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this indicate the answer received actually clarified very little for you?

 

[escott]

Imagine being confronted with the revelation that you are a psychopath. If you have 13 minutes I highly recommend you listen to Dr. James Fallon's story about his discovery of learning that he is a psychopath. Talk about gaining some perspective into one's own nature...