What We Think We Know

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, escott said:

What do we know? - Emoji's mean different things to different people.

 

Exactly.  I recently used the sad - emoji on someones telling a tragic story, and they wanted asked for clarification on what I meant, ie commiseration or meaning sad that you wrote it. 

 

This one's my all time favorite , when I use it, I'm saying 'Don't know, don't care, but its a sunny day and it's all good', which saves time over typing 'DKDCBIASDAIAG' 

Edited August 13, 2019 by thelerner

[manitou]

Just now, thelerner said:

'DKDCBIASDAIAG' 

 

 

Please enlighten us.

 

And ?   Bujinkan, definitely.  There really is one living in my mobilehome park, and I definitely recognize Kevin's eyes.

[manitou]

Okay, you want me to beg, right?    You've got it.  Please, pretty please my dear Lerner:

 

wtf does DKDCBIASDAIAG mean?

[Everything]

15 hours ago, manitou said:

Okay, you want me to beg, right?    You've got it.  Please, pretty please my dear Lerner:

 

wtf does DKDCBIASDAIAG mean?

The most difficult thing for a human is to understand how simple something really is. Because we have experienced a suffering, we feel we cannot accomplish feeling better. So, we think, the suffering is endless. And so we ask the conditions of life to change, instead of enjoying the lessons learned from the darkness of our uncertainty, as it will feed our ever expanding knowing of our ever expanding self allowed greater realisation of all that we truely are being and becoming evermore. And we learn that our uncertainty is only an illusion, we create, to experience for ourselves, through our certainty. Then you will realise, that you do not have a choice. For you are bound to your own freedom. 

 

Don't 

Know (what will happen) 

Don't

Care (about the conditions, because they don't create themselves) 

But

It's

A

Sunny

Day

And

It's 

All

Good (All Stems From the Source of All Creation) 

The first letter of each word in the sentence, capitilized. 

DKDCBIASDAIAG

 

The lerner has learned that freedom is the lowest truth, for without it, we cannot realise the evermore greater truth. It requires 3 points to make a something. When we feel something is missing, this negative energy, we feel as negative emotion. It means, we are lacking understanding. So when you say "TELL ME! I WANT TO KNOW!" You have the desire to know. You have the believe that the knowing exists. But you lack the experience. The greatest teacher of all. Not words. But experience. The experience of knowing, can only come through knowing. You exist. You know this. You know what you want to know. What you choose to want to know, because you think you want to know it. But how do you know, what you truely actually want to know? Only through knowing pure desire, can you know true desire. Pure desire, is like pure knowing. It is not purified of its values. It's radiance of full realised value, is what makes it pure. The enlightening experience of OH WOW HOW SIMPLE AND EASY! IT IS TRUTH, BECAUSE IT FEELS GOOD. AND IF A TRUTH IS MENT TO LAST FOREVER, IT CAN ONLY EVER FEEL BETTER THAN ANYTHING THAT I HAVE EVER FELT BEFORE, EVER  M O R E !!! 

 

So you RUSH towards the thing that feels better. Because you wish to remain in truth. And will your suffering take you away from truth? In your experience? Yes... In truth? No.... Truth remains forever more. So you may be missing your own life. No one's gonna say, you are missing your own life. Because you are free to miss your own life. And the truth loves you unconditionally enough, to allow you to believe that you are not loved. And thereby you experience not being loved. And in that experience, you learn the horrors of illusion. Powered by your intelligence. You can never win from the mirror. Because you are fighting yourself. So you surrender, and just accept that all is you.

 

And you got no choice. But to choose, your freedom. So you may wait forever. And sometimes the freedom comes, because you recognized it. But soon forget again. The experience remains short... So you focus, and move yourself awake. And you realise, that you chose to do that. You did that to yourself. And this is where freedom seeps into you. You are responsible for all and everything. It's a heavy burden, only if you have made the wrong choices, because you insist that those choices were wrong. And you awaken AGAIN! Because you are choosing to believe that you insist that those choices were wrong. And you can also choose to believe that they were made, from a state of true freedom. That had the true freedom of knowing everything. Then how could the choice be wrong? And if it is wrong, then doesn't that mean, that you chose it just to make ABSOLUTELY sure that they are wrong. And so...

 

The certainty re awakens. And you realise, every movement you make, is a choice. And you can choose to move this part of your body and that. You can choose to focus on this and or that. You can choose to think about freedom. 

 

So freedom begins. Because you think about it. And you look at the sky open and wide. The air is light. This is freedom. And if this small thought of freedom is enough. You can feed the true freedom the light of your awareness. And the more consistently you do this, the more it will grow, and the less consistent, the more the weeds will grow. 

So you meditate, to deprive the weeds, and empower your light. And you move, because the breath of your life is what awakens you to your greater freedom evermore. 

 

We humans fall asleep many times. Just return back to your ability to choose what you focus on, what you give your attention on. And if there is something making you feel bad, don't try to fix it or try to change its freedom, and thereby forgetting your own. Just let it help guide you, realise you, to what you prefer to focus upon. 

 

People being mean to you? Don't ask them to be nice. Think about kindness. What does it mean to you? Focus on it. First within. Then when the thought expands into your energy field, and you feel the kindness thought realisations, move you energy motionally, emotionally, then look at your surroundings, softly, and let the feeling help you recognize the kindness that already exists.

 

For all exists here and now, evermore. You decide, what aspects you want to expand upon. And so... You create, every experience in your life. Do not limit kindness to any particular person. Do not limit abbundance to any particular thing, do not limit freedom to any particular way. Feel the energy of them, and let yourself recognize it being and becoming, evermore, here and now. 

 

I am going to end this text here. Because I believe I am falling asleep. I feel heavy. And sleeping feels so light. But when I wake up, sleeping will feel more heavy. And being awake, will feel more light... You understand, how your energy motional guidance system works? It is flawless, ascending evermore. Into greater heights, of evermore being and becoming evermore. Let it be that simple and free and light. And trust your hearts emotions as your guiding light. For again, if you know what feels worse in the moment, you know more clearly what will feel better. 

 

For me, sleeping feels better now because I let go of trying to explain these things. And I hope it will become as obvious as broad day light. Not inside, but outside. And outside being another inside. So how do you know what it all means? If it were not, that you could feel the difference, between true knowing and lesser knowing.

 

So feel your way, to what everything always truely means to you, evermore here and now. True value. True difference. True meaning, true feeling, true emotion, because the feeling is undeniable. Undeniable, that you can feel the meaninglessness, as a lack of feeling at all. Dull and blunt. Tired and heavy. As the difficulty of living in complete ignorance. So you dare to feel it, to know it. And you now got a guiding light. For how do you know, the light, without a backdrop of darkness, upon which to look at it? The darkness and the light are working hand in hand together, for your ever expanding greater realisation of freedom and joy evermore.

 

A world where everything is free and light, infinitely intelligent, source of meaning and values all around. Like golden coins spread out, all over the lands and the people living abbundantly and free. And then what will you do in a free world? If you do not know what you want to do... 

Then you do not yet understand, that you are free, so that you can choose what you want to do. And it will thus be done by you, and you will thus, enjoy it, because you chose it. And if it's something you don't like, what you do like, will become more clarified to and by you.

 

So you enter a theatre, and the people are afraid, and the plays are dull. And so you realise, you want to create a play of tremendous fearlessness. And so you do, and all the people are awed by the new hype of fearless play. They didn't even know they wanted to see it, but their hearts guiding light, showed their ways, all night... 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Everything

[ilumairen]

 

18 hours ago, thelerner said:

I recently used the sad - emoji on someones telling a tragic story, and they wanted asked for clarification on what I meant, ie commiseration or meaning sad that you wrote it. 

 

The story wasn't intended to be tragic, and back home would have been met with a "no shit," "suck it up buttercup," or some such dismissal because it's just life - which is kinda what I was intending to convey. 

[ilumairen]

 

17 hours ago, manitou said:

wtf does DKDCBIASDAIAG mean?

 

It's the acronym for "Don't know, don't care, but it's a sunny day and it's all good," or  for short. 

 

Love ya, and sorry if my attempts to use our interaction to highlight the subject matter caused you any upset. 

[dwai]

On 8/8/2019 at 3:26 PM, OldDog said:

It is not often that I initiate a thread but in light of recent discussions I thought it would be worthwhile exploring what we think we know.

 

My hope ... and my request ... is that in his thread is that we limit discussion to how we know what we know ... rather than the content of what we know. Let this be an exploration ... a personal introspection ... of sources of knowledge, validation of truth and reality and mechanisms at work in shaping what we know.

 

For some time now, I have been thinking about these things, as part of my own personal introspection, believing that a better understanding of such things will better equip me to deal with the world out there.

 

One of the writings that helps set a launch point for of such introspection comes from Zhuangzi on The Futility of Argument.

 

Granting that you and I argue. If you get the better of me, and not I of you, are you necessarily right and I wrong? Or if I get the better of you and not you of me, am I necessarily right and you wrong? Or are we both partly right and partly wrong? Or are we both wholly right and wholly wrong? Since you and I cannot know, we all live in darkness.

 

Whom shall I ask to judge between us? If I ask someone who takes your view, he will side with you. How can such a one arbitrate between us? If I ask someone who takes my view, he will side with me. How can such a one arbitrate between us? If I ask someone who differs from both of us, he will be equally unable to decide between us, since he differs from both of us. And if I ask someone who agrees with both of us, he will be equally unable to decide between us, since he agrees with both of us. Since you and I and other men cannot decide, how can we depend upon another? The words of arguments are all relative; if we wish to reach the absolute, we must harmonise them by means of the unity of God, and follow their natural evolution to the end of our days.

 

    - trans. Lin Yutang

 

Zhuangzi presents a fairly straight forward simple analysis, really quite basic, that we can all find some agreement in. But the world we live in is not so simple. It is highly complex for any number of reasons. Even relying on provable facts and well reasoned knowledge does not always serve us well. Very much leaves us feeling like we live in darkness ... and for good reason.

 

So, how are we to know? How are we to find our way? I think we need to raise our level of sophistication in terms of understanding the dynamics involved in seeking and obtaining knowledge. This is where I think social philosophy or social psychology can be helpful.

 

I don't usually tend to cross post from other sources (slap me back if I am violating a rule)  but today I ran into an article that provided a framework for understanding the kind of dynamics we (TDBs) have been experiencing lately. I hope you will take time to read it. In spite of the title, it contains ideas that are universally applicable.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

 

I look forward to hearing from y'all on these kinds of ideas.

 

Kind regards.

 

What you are asking for in the OP is called "pramāńa in sanskrit (or Proof). Each tradition has its own set that it works with. For example, in Yoga, there are three --

 

1. Pratyaksha - Direct Experience
2. Anumāna - Inference
3. Agama - Testimony of a reliable witness 

 

With which, this logic follows --

 

Before you know, you rely on the testimony of a reliable witness (one who is considered to be authoritative, like an acknowledged master, or a text, etc). So you study from the Agama.

 

Then as you are studying it, you use your inference and intellectual understanding to extrapolate what is being taught/said in terms of knowledge.

 

All good agamas should provide a method by which one can directly experience what is being said. So along with the inferential part, you start working on the practical aspect, such that one day you can personally verify the truth as it is via direct experience. 

 

How that relates to the subject of my original response is as follows --

 

So supposing there are two such frameworks (as articulated above). Two sets of agama and they don't agree with each other, and there arises a need for a discourse between the two differing theories;  then it behooves us to study the "other" so we can understand what they're actually saying. And then follow a framework via which the ideas can be evaluated for their "accuracy".  Same method as above follows. 

 

I had posited a framework based on traditional Indic methods of debating several times on this forum. No one liked it, because it would be too difficult to follow -- meaning people have to actually do their homework and not simply 'shoot from the hip'.

 

Here's a link to that and the expected mayhem that followed --

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by dwai

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

What you are asking for in the OP is ...

 

Not so much .. pramāńa or Proof ... which I can't  argue with, but more of a call to the Bums to return to self as an original source ... And to put less stock in alternative sources whose authority may be questionable. One really has to test each idea against their own reality to see what fits. Won't be so naive as to assume there is only one reality ... common experience, maybe ... but not one reality.

 

Had to look up Agama, as it is a term I am not familiar with. For a moment there I thought ... He can't be talking about lizards!   Levity aside, I agree that we should be guided by the scriptures of whichever school we find meaning in.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

All good agamas should provide a method by which one can directly experience what is being said.

 

I think this is worthy to take note of. From a Daoist perspective, a meditative practice of quieting the discrimating mind might prove helpful in experiencing the truth of some things.

 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

... then it behooves us to study the "other" so we can understand what they're actually saying ...

 

Glad you said that.  This is actually one of the points I wanted to see emerge from this discussion. If we do not see what are the truths that others adhere to, then not progress can be made.

 

But truth is a hard notion to deal with. Everyone believes they have the truth ... And it is exclusive. If you don't accept my truth ... you are clearly wrong. This is polarizing and only ensures continued discord.

 

Suppose, though, that instead of talking about whose truth is right, we side step that and talk about what is valued. It seems easier to acknowledge that the other may value certain things than to wrestle with whether their truth is valid or not. There's a lot less risk of provoking an existential crisis when dealing with what we value than with what is true. Much easier for me to acknowledge your values than your truths. 

 

I really think this is key in keeping the heat content of discourse down.

 

 

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Not so much .. pramāńa or Proof ... which I can't  argue with, but more of a call to the Bums to return to self as an original source ... And to put less stock in alternative sources whose authority may be questionable. One really has to test each idea against their own reality to see what fits. Won't be so naive as to assume there is only one reality ... common experience, maybe ... but not one reality.

 

Had to look up Agama, as it is a term I am not familiar with. For a moment there I thought ... He can't be talking about lizards!   Levity aside, I agree that we should be guided by the scriptures of whichever school we find meaning in.

 

Quote

 

I think this is worthy to take note of. From a Daoist perspective, a meditative practice of quieting the discrimating mind might prove helpful in experiencing the truth of some things.

 

I personally have followed three traditions quite deeply over the past 20+ years.  I find from direct experience that they lead to the same source. 

Quote

 

Glad you said that.  This is actually one of the points I wanted to see emerge from this discussion. If we do not see what are the truths that others adhere to, then not progress can be made.

 

But truth is a hard notion to deal with. Everyone believes they have the truth ... And it is exclusive. If you don't accept my truth ... you are clearly wrong. This is polarizing and only ensures continued discord.

A philosopher-physicist-sage friend of mine put it this way. There really are "truth-claims" and not "truths" per se. In order for a truth-claim to be, a categorical framework needs to be employed. What is a categorical framework? It facilitates a method by which objects of knowledge can be categorized and labeled. They might have roots in different (or different seeming) theories, which set forth the rules via which to do said categorizing and labeling. 

 

However, when one directly gets to the heart of any truth-claim, they will find the same underlying experience (can't find a more appropriate word to describe IT).  

 

Quote

 

Suppose, though, that instead of talking about whose truth is right, we side step that and talk about what is valued. It seems easier to acknowledge that the other may value certain things than to wrestle with whether their truth is valid or not. There's a lot less risk of provoking an existential crisis when dealing with what we value than with what is true. Much easier for me to acknowledge your values than your truths. 

I think it's okay to consider even different truths, so long as we understand that different categorical frameworks are in play.  The problem becomes when we try to evaluate on the basis of one categorical framework, the truth claims that arise from different categorical frameworks.

 

A good example I find is in the field of medicine. Western medicine depends on a particular categorical framework. TCM depends on another, and Ayurveda depends on another. From the perspective of the Western medical doctor, TCM and Ayurveda are essentially bullshit, if he/she uses the Western Medicine's categorical framework to evaluate the validity of TCM and Ayurveda. Yet, empirically both TCM and Ayurveda are effective modes of medical practice and in fact are far more prophylactic in nature than Western medicine currently is. 

 

Quote

 

I really think this is key in keeping the heat content of discourse down.

 

 

 

The key is in finding a common purpose for the discourse. If you look at the four categories of discourse that I outlined in the thread OP I shared earlier, you'll find there are really two worthy of having. Samvāda and Vāda -- i.e., discussion between an expert and a novice, or between two equals (preferably experts).  All other forms will lead to "heat generation".  

Edited August 14, 2019 by dwai

[OldDog]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

The problem becomes when we try to evaluate on the basis of one categorical framework ...

 

Which always must be because in one sense we all operate within our own frameworks. It is important to develop the skill of being able to at least temporarily suspend our own belief system ... categorical framework ... paradigm ... in order to be able to see another. I think psychologists call this skill empathy.

 

So, having exercised this skill, a common ground for discourse may be found ... And, more importantly, an agreed upon direction might be set that satisfies most of the values that are inherent in our individual frameworks.

 

I think we are saying very similar things.

 

 

[dwai]

 

1 minute ago, OldDog said:

I think we are saying very similar things.

 

 

I agree  

[C T]

On 8/13/2019 at 2:45 AM, Jadespear said:

 

...obviously a tree is just a word.  Care to elaborate on what makes it so much more? 

 

 

Elaborating on the point made: 

 

“Do you know that even when you look at a tree and say, `That is an oak tree', or `that is a banyan tree', the naming of the tree, which is botanical knowledge, has so conditioned your mind that the word comes between you and actually seeing the tree? To come in contact with the tree you have to put your hand on it and the word will not help you to touch it.” ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti

[Jadespear]

22 hours ago, C T said:

Elaborating on the point made: 

 

“Do you know that even when you look at a tree and say, `That is an oak tree', or `that is a banyan tree', the naming of the tree, which is botanical knowledge, has so conditioned your mind that the word comes between you and actually seeing the tree? To come in contact with the tree you have to put your hand on it and the word will not help you to touch it.” ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

...Yes, obviously.  But, you haven't really elaborated on what it actually is... all you have done is shown that the word is separate from the actual thing and recognized that a tree is an actual thing that has a presence that you can feel...  so would you care to try and attempt to make your previous statement mean anything?  "It's so much more.."  --- you haven't proven that yet.  To some people the word "tree" could mean more to them than you realize, then the power of the word can be even more powerful than the actual thing itself...   

[manitou]

It is so much more, as I see it.  Truly, we are one with the tree.  We are the same energy.  If one puts their hand on a tree and possesses no thoughts at all going on in the brain, oneness with the tree is felt and understood at a level that words can't reach.

[ilumairen]

On 8/16/2019 at 5:25 PM, Jadespear said:

 

...Yes, obviously.  But, you haven't really elaborated on what it actually is... all you have done is shown that the word is separate from the actual thing and recognized that a tree is an actual thing that has a presence that you can feel...  so would you care to try and attempt to make your previous statement mean anything?  "It's so much more.."  --- you haven't proven that yet.  To some people the word "tree" could mean more to them than you realize, then the power of the word can be even more powerful than the actual thing itself...   

 

Do you have a seperate tree floating in empty space somewhere?

[C T]

On 8/16/2019 at 10:25 PM, Jadespear said:

 

...Yes, obviously.  But, you haven't really elaborated on what it actually is... all you have done is shown that the word is separate from the actual thing and recognized that a tree is an actual thing that has a presence that you can feel...  so would you care to try and attempt to make your previous statement mean anything?  "It's so much more.."  --- you haven't proven that yet.  To some people the word "tree" could mean more to them than you realize, then the power of the word can be even more powerful than the actual thing itself...   

 

Whats essential is knowing that elaborations are mere mental constructs of habit peculiar to the individual. 

Mental constructs are those things we think we know, like how we think we know a tree, and therefore, also how knowing ends. 

 

To know that the word is separate from the actual thing, as you mentioned, is already considered 'higher knowledge'. Most people dont care to exercise such discernments. They prefer the easy route. The familiar one. 

They tend to be fixated by thoughts of permanence and unchanging reality. Hence, a tree's a tree's a tree.... 

We all know how spiritually defeating that can be, 

But we also know not a whole lot of people have affinity with spirit, 

And so they continue to call a tree they see in the winter... a tree...

in spring, a tree....

in summer, a tree....

in autumn, tree. 

Till they die, a tree will never be anything but. 

And this is how potential dies. 

How freedom dies. 

How, eventually, 

the world 

dies. 

 

But everyone, when asked, wants to be happy. To have no suffering. 

To be without strife. 

 

How strange and wonderful, the mind. 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by C T

[manitou]

On 8/14/2019 at 5:31 AM, Everything said:

 

 

 

 

People being mean to you? Don't ask them to be nice. Think about kindness. What does it mean to you? Focus on it. First within. Then when the thought expands into your energy field, and you feel the kindness thought realisations, move you energy motionally, emotionally, then look at your surroundings, softly, and let the feeling help you recognize the kindness that already exists.

 

 

 

 

I think this is crucial.  It's about love and kindness.  Nothing feels better than being kind to someone who is being unkind to you.  It just feels....right.  That's the essence of unconditional love - loving someone for what they are, not what we think they should be.  This is a wonderful daily discipline to keep in mind.  So much out there to transcend.

[doc benway]

On 8/16/2019 at 5:25 PM, Jadespear said:

 

...Yes, obviously.  But, you haven't really elaborated on what it actually is... all you have done is shown that the word is separate from the actual thing and recognized that a tree is an actual thing that has a presence that you can feel...  so would you care to try and attempt to make your previous statement mean anything?  "It's so much more.."  --- you haven't proven that yet.  To some people the word "tree" could mean more to them than you realize, then the power of the word can be even more powerful than the actual thing itself...   

 

The approach Krishnamurti advocated was not to elaborate but rather rest the inner voice and open to the possibility that there may be something about “tree” that transcends discursive thought, memory, the whole of the movement of mind. 

 

Can the word be even more powerful than what it represents? An intriguing question that I suggest we intend to entertain for a while before reaching any conclusions.

Edited August 18, 2019 by steve

[Jadespear]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

The approach Krishnamurti advocated was not to elaborate but rather rest the inner voice and open to the possibility that there may be something about “tree” that transcends discursive thought, memory, the whole of the movement of mind. 

 

Can the word be even more powerful than what it represents? An intriguing question that I suggest we intend to entertain for a while before reaching any conclusions.

 

 

...no one really knew what Krishnamurti “advocated” for.  He was the most against advocating anything during his time.  And the relationship of words meaning more to people than what they represent was one of his lifelong criticisms of modern society.  

 

 

[Everything]

7 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I think this is crucial.  It's about love and kindness.  Nothing feels better than being kind to someone who is being unkind to you.  It just feels....right.  That's the essence of unconditional love - loving someone for what they are, not what we think they should be.  This is a wonderful daily discipline to keep in mind.  So much out there to transcend.

At first it seems like we are transcending it. Because that is the true experience of it, for sure. But once you are done transcending, you come to realise, that you are simply allowing it to come back to full realisation for yourself, and in doing so, for everyone around you aswell. 

 

You can suffer, and thereby, add power to the transcending. Because your soul joins the already transcended. As your soul is transcending evermore in greater joy. We humans feel bad when we create a gap between our physical consciousness and that of our greater non-physical consciousness. So the only thing required, is to focus, on anything, that feels less bad, and feels better, including a focus on anything meaningless, like meditation. So thereby, our energy naturally and effortlessly comes back into further alignment with the furthest most expanded part of all that we truely are being and becoming evermore. And thus you allow everything to come back to full realisation, because your soul has already become the full realisation of it all for yourself. And that is why people always find value in you when you do so, because their soul has joined your soul in full realisation aswell. And remembering that, through your leading example, brings them instantly back into alignment with their own soul aswell. Because joy is simply joy. The details of it may be unique for everyone, but the essence of it, can be recognized by all, as alignment with their own soul, that is what they truely desire in life.

 

So often, the greatest enemy, is simply that which is just showing the way. Informing your evermore greater allowed realisation of your evermore being and becoming evermore, the moreness of your evermore being and becoming of your joy and freedom evermore. And so this expansion and evolution happens forever. If it didn't, we woulden't ever feel bad if we held on to a mode of perceiving that is contrary to our own soul's furthest most being and becoming. Because it is true joy that the moreness of joy truely is being and becoming evermore. And being there, in full alignment with your soul, that's truely where the benefit is for one and all. Of true knowing and true realisation, evermore. Effortless, doing nothing, leaving nothing undone.

 

But when someone feels bad, it will seem impossible. And therefor they will learn from that observation, that no matter how hard they try, they can never even come close to that kind of an allowed realisation, unless they simply give up all perspectives and return back into their true fully allowed realised perspective, that is already of their own soul evermore. And then their life will simply be the evermore impossible creation of evermore allowed being and becoming evermore.  Not even trying, doing nothing and leaving nothing undone. It is simply the natural path of least resistance indicated by the energy motional alignment, indicated by the emotion of joy. Of all of creation being and becoming ever more and more and more. And then you become a deliberate co-creator of all creation. Back into full conscious realisation of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore. That feels like what true joy feels like. And true feeling of freedom from the only bondage that is of resistance. And without that, you're simply free to allow everything to come to full realisation evermore. Because that is simply the natural path of least resistance of who it is you truely are being and becoming evermore, in full alignment with your soul, as a whole total being, co-blended of physical and non-physical, together, hand in hand. In full joy and love and appreciation. And you simply express that as best you can in life. You be and become that evermore. And therefor, the benefit is realised evermore.

 

But if there is resistance in your life, that full realisation is still there, flowing, but it is being flowed in self contradiction with its own greater allowed being and becoming evermore.

 

So to come back into allowed alignment, one needs to find a focus that feels better/good. One can even imagine a greater realisation of true pure desire. To understand the why and how of life. As you are always co-creating it with your soul. But to realise it consciously, that's where the joy is of evermore being and becoming. And the better you feel, the more you allow that realisation for yourself evermore. Under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, unconditionally.

 

You simply focus on the true desire. Relentlessly. As your soul is doing so evermore aswell. And so there no longer needs to be a seperation between you and your soul. And so you become a whole fully realised being of evermore being and becoming evermore. In full joy and love and freedom evermore. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Everything

[Everything]

42 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

 

 

...no one really knew what Krishnamurti “advocated” for.  He was the most against advocating anything during his time.  And the relationship of words meaning more to people than what they represent was one of his lifelong criticisms of modern society.  

 

 

True knowing can either be allowed in the moment, or not. The more fully you allow it, to flow through and as you, the better you feel, energy motionally, emotionally. Through that knowing, everything is understood, in relationship to everything. But unless there is full energy motional alignment with the furthest most expanded state of knowing that your own soul has also already become, and is being the evermore being and becoming of the evermoreness of it, full knowing cannot be fully allowed to be known by you. Because it is flowing through you, in a self contradictory way, there by, you would be feeling negative emotion. So you say, I want to feel better more of the time. And that is a great realisation. For then you realise, the true knowing already is always with you, as the flawless emotional guidance system that you contain within you always. Then you realise, it doesn't matter how you feel better or good. It only matters that you do. For that is the only way to allow fully realised knowing being and becoming evermore.

 

So to try and change your knowing, while feeling bad, can be a way to feel better. But if you feel better first, then you will walk the true path of least resistance, towards all that you want to be do or have evermore, including the knowledge that you truely seek evermore. Anything and everything that you can ever want to be do or have, is being flowed to you evermore, by your soul. When you feel that positive emotion, it means this knowing is allowed to flow more fully through you, in a more fully allowed realised fashion.

 

It is a mode of perceiving, that is of joy, that you truely are capable of realising true knowing. Of evermore being and becoming. Even knowing why you are not capable of knowing something, as a joyful realisation, will expand that knowledge so far and wide, that through all those reasons of knowing, you come to realise the unknowable. Because you are eternally and infinite and unconditionally worthy evermore to be do or have whatever it is you so desire. And this joy is the only purpose of existance. The lowest form of it, capable of being realised by human, as they allow themselves to become wholely fully realised hueman being.

 

You can spend time trying to achieve full realisation. And never succeeding. Or you can spend time, learning to allow your natural full realisation, and succeeding evermore. Everyone naturally wants to feel better. To learn to allow yourself to feel better, unconditionally, regardless of any and all conditions. Then you got acces to all the knowing you seek.

 

So this Source of Well Being flows evermore. The temporary life of suffering of some humans is not that big in the big scheme of things. That is also why it feels bad to suffer. Because it is truely unnecessary and wasteful. That is why body always cancels itself out, when negative emotion is enduringly present. Because you are ment to be an unconditional being of joy. That exists here in the exploration of these conditions, for the purpose of the evermore furthermore becoming of that joy. There is nothing about these conditions, that is not conducive of joy. But one does have to let go of insisting that only the conditions can bring joy. Because these conditions don't create themselves. So you would then only be focusing on how someone else has been focusing. Not realising that it has got nothing to do with all that you truely are being and becoming evermore. 

 

But the conditions still are capable of being fully realised, regardless of this negative tendency of self contradicting mode of perceiving. Simply through your emotional guidance system, which always shows the way, to your evermore being and becoming evermore. But trying to change the conditions to feel better, never works. Because your guidance is an unconditional one. So you cannot insist on any particular mode of perceiving. You gotta flow your full joy through you at all times, as it points and guides, unerringly towards your evermore path of least resistance towards all that you truely want to be do or have evermore. And that is simply your natural state of being. So if you restore that, through meditation, clearing the resistant energetic thought patterns of self contradiction + restoring the natural ability to focus unconditionally, regardless of any and all conditions, then full joy is allowed to flow naturall again, through allowed alignment, with and of full realisation, of evermore being and becoming the evermoreness of freedom and joy.

 

Life's simply easy and fun. You will do things, impossible things, but you will enjoy it so much, that it will simply feel natural. As you simply always flow with that joy, naturally, for it is attractive, in a very powerful way, to keep doing so. And that is the path of least resistance, of your evermore being and becoming evermore. And whenever you feel bad, nothing changes. Your expansion still happens, you're just temporarily not flowing with it as fully as you could. It's kind of like trying to become less than all that you've truely become. Impossible. So suffering happens, because you are not ment to suffer. The pain happens, because the pain cannot ever be achieved. It cannot join your evermore being and becoming the evermoreness of all of it. And the more you suffer, the more likely you will enjoy the release of resistance that is the only reason or cause of the suffering. Because your true realisation is infinite and eternal. There is no end to how good it can feel.  So people fail to suffer, for the tiniest reasons. Like, oh I looked at this ant. And it was and felt so free. And I realised my true freedom through this small tiny ant walking in total freedom. And so now, I cannot ever go back anymore to suffering. This being and becoming evermore, just feels too good and life's too good, and my eternal being and becoming feels too good.

 

So simply small essential things become more fully realised. Your soul becomes wiser. All of creation becomes wiser. Through you. As you are inseperable from all of it evermore. As your true being truely is infinite and eternal in depth. And the value that can realised, also thus. There is no condition in all of existance, that is not conducive of alignment with the whole. And conducive of full allowed realisation. It just requires one to learn how to allow. How to let go of that resistance that they hold on to that causes the suffering. And then everything simply makes sense again. And so you can understand everything you want. If you allow yourself to know how that feels. Because it is your own soul that is the reason why you want that. Because you already are it. You already are the evermore being and becoming of all that you want to be do or have evermore.

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 

 

...no one really knew what Krishnamurti “advocated” for.

In a thread about how we know what we think we know, I wonder how you know that "no one" understood what he advocated?

 

10 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 He was the most against advocating anything during his time.

I disagree. What he was against was advocating a specific path or method.

Nevertheless, it is clear to many what he was advocating for - freedom from the known, personal investment and engagement in going beyond the limitations of discursive thought. I found his message to be very consistent and precise over the course of decades of various talks.

 

10 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 And the relationship of words meaning more to people than what they represent was one of his lifelong criticisms of modern society.  

I think there is truth to this but even more important was his advocacy for each of us investigating things like this for ourselves, not taking his word or anyone else's word for these things. 

 

At least these are a few of the things I got from studying him.

And I freely admit I could be wrong about all of it!

[rideforever]

Life has endowed us with many faculties.

Thinking, sexuality, physical power, emotions.

If you do not grow, and use these and develop yourself to grow, then they will turn bad.

This is just laziness and apathy. 

Afterwards you can debate "what could be wrong" from the sofa.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by rideforever

[Jadespear]

4 hours ago, steve said:

In a thread about how we know what we think we know, I wonder how you know that "no one" understood what he advocated?

 

I disagree. What he was against was advocating a specific path or method.

Nevertheless, it is clear to many what he was advocating for - freedom from the known, personal investment and engagement in going beyond the limitations of discursive thought. I found his message to be very consistent and precise over the course of decades of various talks.

 

I think there is truth to this but even more important was his advocacy for each of us investigating things like this for ourselves, not taking his word or anyone else's word for these things. 

 

At least these are a few of the things I got from studying him.

And I freely admit I could be wrong about all of it!

 

 

...I think that everything Krishnamurti ever spoke on or cared to exude can be summed up in his most famous quote, that he used to begin his speech when he disbanded the order of the star in front of thousands of people, due to his brother dying and he having lost faith in theosophists... " truth is a pathless land "

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 

 

...I think that everything Krishnamurti ever spoke on or cared to exude can be summed up in his most famous quote, that he used to begin his speech when he disbanded the order of the star in front of thousands of people, due to his brother dying and he having lost faith in theosophists... " truth is a pathless land "

 

 

Another wonderful thing he said when someone asked him how he stayed in consciousness - he replied that 'he didn't mind anything that happened.'

 

That's serious acceptance of what is.