Proposed simplification of forums

[wandelaar]

I think it a good idea to have some places for serious discussion and information on this forum and some other places for fun, jokes and shallow talk. But I don't like the idea of some supreme authority deciding who and what belongs where. The sub-forums could be chosen and named in such a way that they attract the different kinds of people to the places where they belong. For instance: the more serious places could have a more serious name, and the less serious places could have a less serious, somewhat funny name. In this way the Bums will find out for themselves where they are most happy to be. But we need to have different (serious and non-serious) sub-forums for this to be possible.

Edited August 9, 2019 by wandelaar

[manitou]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

I wonder how many members studied Daoism with a legitimate lineage holder vs how many have studied using a variety of other means? 

 

Really interesting question, Steve.

 

I don't call myself a Daoist, but I try my best to live within the dynamics of the DDJ.  I have never studied with a legitimate lineage holder.  I have studied many comparative religions and walked their paths sometimes.  When I discovered the DDJ it was as though I had always been looking for it.  The principles aligned with what my inner self knew to be true.

 

Do you think it's absolutely mandatory to have a legitimate lineage to understand  the Dao?

[Spotless]

3 hours ago, Zork said:

On the contrary, New Age, is an umbrella term that encompasses true and tried systems and crackpot theories and novelty non-effective systems created for marketing purposes. Shouldn't we differentiate? All systems out there aren't equal and the line should be drawn somewhere if this site attempts to give out information to people during their "baby steps" in esoteric systems.

No - it is not an umbrella term for any linage what so ever - but it has been bastardized by the religious right and old religion platforms and denigrated to now stand for what they have propagandize it to mean -  a term that now brings nausea to many.

 

The Sport “Yoga” calisthenics that Earl Grey referred to and the types of behaviors of those that mix and match and are in rehab - this has nothing to do with New Agers (accept as viewed from the propagandize inculcated view)

 

In the broadest sense the New Ager is the epitome of the Daoist - “trying” not to be trying to be in present, spontaneous and in harmony. And that will look necessarily silly at times, concocted and bleached - but it is not ill intended though it certainly can be a bit insufferable at times.

 

And it can be noted that instead of coming up with a good catch word for Non-Yoga Asana Calisthenics and never really making that a primary known and clear fact - we now have such things as Christian Yoga which again has absolutely nothing to do with Yoga.  

 

Nude Yoga is also catching on and in reverence to Marblehead I will not state that it is fake or demean it in any way.

[Earl Grey]

19 minutes ago, Spotless said:

No - it is not an umbrella term for any linage what so ever - but it has been bastardized by the religious right and old religion platforms and denigrated to now stand for what they have propagandize it to mean -  a term that now brings nausea to many.

 

The Sport “Yoga” calisthenics that Earl Grey referred to and the types of behaviors of those that mix and match and are in rehab - this has nothing to do with New Agers (accept as viewed from the propagandize inculcated view)

 

In the broadest sense the New Ager is the epitome of the Daoist - “trying” not to be trying to be in present, spontaneous and in harmony. And that will look necessarily silly at times, concocted and bleached - but it is not ill intended though it certainly can be a bit insufferable at times.

 

And it can be noted that instead of coming up with a good catch word for Non-Yoga Asana Calisthenics and never really making that a primary known and clear fact - we now have such things as Christian Yoga which again has absolutely nothing to do with Yoga.  

 

Nude Yoga is also catching on and in reverence to Marblehead I will not state that it is fake or demean it in any way.

 

I can't really agree with what you've said and don't know how you've arrived at this conclusion, but I've already stated my points from a spiritual and philosophical viewpoint and from a cultural appropriation stance in earlier posts here.

 

Given that, I'll just have to say that we can agree to disagree on how we view New Age and leave it at that as far as I am concerned since I've got nothing new to add on top of what's already been said (and it would also violate the three-post limit that I give myself if a discussion doesn't look like it will go any further or learn anything new). 

 

PS: the Sport Yoga I speak of is used by many New Agers--just go to Santa Monica or Orange County, and go around Metro Manila as well. You'll even see it in Bali and Singapore, as I have. So there goes your point saying it's not New Age--it is appropriated by many of them, but a lot of sporty types don't necessarily do it for things beyond fitness, if Diamond Dallas Page Yoga is an example of non-spiritual yoga, even though it is still appropriated. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Zork]

6 minutes ago, Spotless said:

No - it is not an umbrella term for any linage what so ever - but it has been bastardized by the religious right and old religion platforms and denigrated to now stand for what they have propagandize it to mean -  a term that now brings nausea to many.

You have a very non standard perspective of what New Age is.

It is an umbrella term. Mix and match spirituality etc.

 

The term itself is meaningless and absurd. What is "new" exactly in some of the oldest religions in the world?

Buddhism has been around in Europe since the roman times. Hindu beliefs had also infiltrated through travelers returning from India.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Zork

[Sebastian]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

the only valid bases for the true capability of a tradition is the relative energy power of their current practitioners.

This is not just for Jeff (not picking on you) but about energy reading in general.... I think a more honest and balanced statement about this art could be captured by ....

 

"Energetic readings are helpful, I have some proficiency and trust in them, while at the same time I realize that there is always an element of misunderstanding in energetic reading.

Sometimes it might be the primary element,

sometimes the secondary,

or sometimes tertiary....

but in energetic reading, I realize there is always an element of mis-understanding."

 

Because .... Have you ever met anyone who understood everything about the nature of their presence on earth ?

 

Only one thing is for sure, and that is that person is living in mis-understanding. 

 

I know you work with chakra readings personally, but is morality a factor in your reading ? I met very powerful Masters with all chakras opened that abused people. In that case, I would choose a person with weak Qi and good morality over a person with strong power and poor morality.

 

And then why is a strong signal better ? Doesn't refinement lead to subtlety ? Would someone who keeps unconditional love in their heart emanate strong energy that dazes you or lights a piece of paper on fire ? From my experience, the most refined energies are the subtlest.

 

I'll close this by saying the Universe expresses itself in Union. The intellect expresses itself in division. Energetic reading is the disintegration of that Union in order to bring understanding to the Mind. How then can you or anyone claim to capture an accurate picture looking at disintegrated pieces through the lens of the intellect ?  You can use it as an indicator sure, I take no issue with that. But personally, when deciding the worth or "level" of a person, I make a decision based on my *whole being* : mental, heart, energetic, everything. Not looking through any one lens, which would make a disservice to that person. The person "who has no juice" may have done something wonderful for someone today, or even for you, without knowing it.

 

 

 

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

That is what i am talking about. Spotless's position that New Age movement is good just because the far-right is fighting it, is superficial.

There is a lot of spiritual crap within the movement and a newcomer with no previous experience has no way of figuring it out.

Good god Zork - what the fuck is this? Don’t be a dork - read what was written - I never came close to the words you put in my mouth.

 

Wow - what a shallow read.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Spotless

[dwai]

My 2 cents worth...I found the noise generated by certain people to be very distracting when it comes to having meaningful discussions. I think having separate sub-forums for specific traditions makes sense. I'm not sure how often people do visit the Hindu or Buddhist sub-forums for instance, but it makes sense to maintain that compartmentalization of the knowledge provided therein, and give people the option of staying away if all they want to do is argue about things they either don't know enough about, or don't agree with.  

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I suppose we could make a subsection of Discussions On The Way for fools but I don´t think it´d get much traffic.

Is there any other Way? The Way IS for fools like me  

[Michael Sternbach]

I am all for mutual exchange across systems and traditions - as far as it goes. However, besides the requested separate forum for Daoist discussion, I do think our section for Western occultist traditions should be retained as is as well.

 

Throwing it all in one pot would be quite confusing, IMO. The distinction worked rather well so far. Occasional cross-pollination has occurred previously and should perhaps more expressedly be welcome and acknowledged as potentially conducive to the discussion overall than hitherto may have been the case. And yet different sections can remain dedicated to specific (broad) traditions as their respective main focus.

 

One of the changes I definitely welcome is merging "off grid" and "the rabbit hole".

[Spotless]

Sometimes the specificity of groups has made it difficult to figure out where to post - I am mostly "Way" oriented and not to a specific lineage. Foolishly perhaps but at this point (in contrast to decades ago) I see little differnce in the greater traditions of the East - and I mean that in the best of ways.

 

Obviously in what I consider the small things there is a great deal of difference - but anyway - I wanted to put this in to convey what I feel when trying to figure out where to post a new topic (which I don't do all that much).

 

There is no question that regarding the specifics of lineages in the details - I know next to nothing - so I defer to those above - specifically dwai and Michael Sternbach - their guidance may be far more exercised than mine.

[centertime]

I like diversity....

oversimplification is not good.

There should be enough categories.

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

This is not just for Jeff (not picking on you) but about energy reading in general.... I think a more honest and balanced statement about this art could be captured by ....

 

You may have not noticed my constant statements at the end about "tongue and cheek" or "just stating this to show where the bums is headed".  The views presented are not my actual views, but more an example of an extrapolation of the counterpoint that was being expressed.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

"Energetic readings are helpful, I have some proficiency and trust in them, while at the same time I realize that there is always an element of misunderstanding in energetic reading.

Sometimes it might be the primary element,

sometimes the secondary,

or sometimes tertiary....

but in energetic reading, I realize there is always an element of mis-understanding."

 

But, to you actual point. Energy and actual clarity are the same thing.  Just opposite sides of the same coin.  Anyone with true realization/clarity will radiate it.  Also, if they do not also have conscious control over it, they don't really have the realization.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

Because .... Have you ever met anyone who understood everything about the nature of their presence on earth ?

 

Yes, I have.  

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

Only one thing is for sure, and that is that person is living in mis-understanding. 

 

In the end, it does not really matter.  It is not a misunderstanding that is the problem, but more the attachment to a view.  The key is to be able to let it all go.  This last point is what is missing from the bums lately.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

I know you work with chakra readings personally, but is morality a factor in your reading ? I met very powerful Masters with all chakras opened that abused people. In that case, I would choose a person with weak Qi and good morality over a person with strong power and poor morality.

 

Depending on your definition, yes morality also flows through.  It is not possible to realize higher levels if one is still caught up in using it over others or abusing them.  But, no question someone can be a total jerk and still have some juice.  On many occasions, I have had separate people form what you could call "evil gurus".

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

And then why is a strong signal better ? Doesn't refinement lead to subtlety ? Would someone who keeps unconditional love in their heart emanate strong energy that dazes you or lights a piece of paper on fire ? From my experience, the most refined energies are the subtlest.

 

If someone has true unconditional love they radiate like the brightest sun.  They are my definition of powerful. As I said earlier clarity=power.  Also, refined energies are the subtlest, but they can also easily quench the less subtle energies.

 

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

I'll close this by saying the Universe expresses itself in Union. The intellect expresses itself in division. Energetic reading is the disintegration of that Union in order to bring understanding to the Mind. How then can you or anyone claim to capture an accurate picture looking at disintegrated pieces through the lens of the intellect ?  You can use it as an indicator sure, I take no issue with that. But personally, when deciding the worth or "level" of a person, I make a decision based on my *whole being* : mental, heart, energetic, everything. Not looking through any one lens, which would make a disservice to that person. The person "who has no juice" may have done something wonderful for someone today, or even for you, without knowing it.

 

 

First of all, thank you very much for these great questions.  I wish this was more the nature of discourse at the bums.

 

To your point, I would somewhat disagree that the universe is all union.  As the buddhist's state, it is also inherently empty, hence your "union" is a perceptional aspect and not the primordial. So one is both "in it" and also "not it", so it is totally possible to read while being in it.  Just like you can check out your own finger, while it is still a part of entire body.

 

Finally, there is no metric (or any kind) that declares the worth of a person, especially to be included or not.  That is my real point of those posts.  All judgements of others, do nothing but belittle the one attempting to do the judging.  I expressed my own personal view on this topic recently in another thread with an apt quote...

 

Our uniqueness, our individuality, and our life experience molds us into fascinating beings. I hope we can embrace that. I pray we may all challenge ourselves to delve into the deepest resources of our hearts to cultivate an atmosphere of understanding, acceptance, tolerance, and compassion. We are all in this life together.

 

Linda Thompson

[rene]

Knowing when to stop is like the river coming home to the sea.

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Sometimes the specificity of groups has made it difficult to figure out where to post - I am mostly "Way" oriented and not to a specific lineage. Foolishly perhaps but at this point (in contrast to decades ago) I see little differnce in the greater traditions of the East - and I mean that in the best of ways.

You are right of course

 

9 minutes ago, Spotless said:

 

Obviously in what I consider the small things there is a great deal of difference - but anyway - I wanted to put this in to convey what I feel when trying to figure out where to post a new topic (which I don't do all that much).

It took me a while, but I eventually figured out that when I want to avoid "noise", I post in the tradition-specific sub-forum. I don't see this forum as merely a place where people come and argue with each other (there are countless other such forums on the internet for that).  TDB has a power that is developed when many like-minded individuals join in what is called a "sat-sangha" (Satsang), aka company of the Good. 

 

Overall I think the forum has evolved for the better over the years since I've been coming here. There have been occasional disputes, and a resolution has risen out of those disputes, with greater clarity and understanding for all involved.

 

But who knows, maybe its time for another evolution?  As we say in Tai chi, we go from no form to form to no form. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, rene said:

Knowing when to stop is like the river coming home to the sea.

 

Beautifully said.  

[rene]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Beautifully said.  

Yeah, Laozi always had a nice way with words.

 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, rene said:

Yeah, Laozi always had a nice way with words.

 

 

Definitely.  Also, I like your style with your comment. People did not seem to get the attempted irony in my posts, and even seemed to miss my label at the end of them.  Oh well...

 

Seems like time for me to just float in that sea.  

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

Good god Zork - what the fuck is this? Don’t be a dork - read what was written - I never came close to the words you put in my mouth.

 

Wow - what a shallow read.

Thanks man i appreciate it!

Name calling must be an enlightened thing. Better get used to it i guess.....

[ilumairen]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Definitely.  Also, I like your style with your comment. People did not seem to get the attempted irony in my posts, and even seemed to miss my label at the end of them.  Oh well...

 

Seems like time for me to just float in that sea.  

 

Perhaps because what was written tongue in cheek, and a decent example of where the issues in determining what is valid and what isn't are, came across to some in much the same way as many other posts you've written (as not tongue in cheek) in the past?

 

Just a thought... 

Edited August 9, 2019 by ilumairen

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Perhaps because what was written tongue in cheek, and a decent example of where the issues in determining what is valid and what isn't are, came across to some in much the same way as many other posts you've written (as not tongue in cheek) in the past?

 

Just a thought... 

 

Then for all, I repeat this thought as my view...

 

Our uniqueness, our individuality, and our life experience molds us into fascinating beings. I hope we can embrace that. I pray we may all challenge ourselves to delve into the deepest resources of our hearts to cultivate an atmosphere of understanding, acceptance, tolerance, and compassion. We are all in this life together.

 

Linda Thompson

[moment]

20 hours ago, sean said:

EDIT: Revised based on suggestions. You can see latest along with revision history here:

https://gist.github.com/seanomlor/d3c6caca3263bfe3706fd54456316f66

 

I'd like to simplify the forums a bit.

 

The biggest change I'm wanting is to merge Daoist Discussion and General Discussion, along with many of the subforums.

 

Given the nonsectarian roots of this space, I've never been super stoked on the compartmentalization of e.g. Buddhist vs Hindu, etc. etc. It's also a can of worms because we're certainly excluding innumerable traditions.

 

My feeling is that merging a bunch of these separate forums into one big, weird "Discussions On The Way" simpler, flatter forums will promote more cross-pollination between us.

Anyway, here's a quick rough draft of what I'm imagining the new forum/subforum structure to be.

 

THE COURTYARD

 

- Welcome! (merges Welcome and Newcomer Corner)
- Discussions On The Way (previously Daoist Discussion)
    - 道家学说
    - Textual Studies (merges Daodejing, Zhuangzi, etc.)
- Vast High Weirdness (😆 still working on this name, previously General Discussion. The word "general" just feels so boring.)
- The Rabbit Hole (merges "The Rabbit Hole", "Off Grid". Basically an off topic forum to talk about whatever, but not an "anything goes")
- Meta-Talk (merges Forum and Tech Support, Moderation Logs, Rules and Use)
 
PRIVATE GARDENS

 

- Group Studies
- Personal Practice (still has everyone's private subforums under this)
- Gender Gardens
    - Nonbinary (for nonbinary, gender questioning and intersex)
    - Women (for women and female identified)
    - Men (for men and male identified)

- Interviews
- Lending Library
- Local Meetups and Events (merges Local Meetups and Upcoming Events)

 

Please discuss, definitely want to hear your feedback, concerns, any subforums you think should still be separate for whatever reason, etc. etc.

 

Sean

 

"The biggest change I'm wanting is to merge Daoist Discussion and General Discussion, along with many of the subforums."

 

May I suggest calling it "Growing Together".

[moment]

10 hours ago, manitou said:

 

Do you think it's absolutely mandatory to have a legitimate lineage to understand  the Dao?

 

No, The way was here long before their was any lineage.  It is (the name of) a way that has been laid down by many other faiths that used other names. Laying claim to the "best way" amounts to religiosity no matter how you cloak it. Some ways work better for some people than others.  I hope that the new direction of this site starts eliminating certain types of competitive nonsense.

Edited August 10, 2019 by moment

[sean]

What if "Discussions On The Way" becomes the new "General Discussion" with a new forum to house "Focused Traditions".

 

THE COURTYARD

 

- Welcome!

  - Newcomer Corner
- Discussions On The Way (previously "General Discussion")
- Focused Traditions
  - Daoist (previously top level "Daoist Discussion")
    - 道家学说
    - Interviews
    - Textual Studies
  - Buddhist
  - Vedic
  - Occult
- The Rabbit Hole (merges "The Rabbit Hole", "Off Grid". Basically an off topic forum to talk about whatever, but not an "anything goes")
- Meta-Talk (merges Forum and Tech Support, Moderation Logs, Rules and Use)
 
PRIVATE GARDENS

- Personal Practice (still has everyone's private subforums under this)
- Gender Gardens
    - Nonbinary (for nonbinary, gender questioning and intersex)
    - Women (for women and female identified)
    - Men (for men and male identified)
- Group Studies
- Lending Library
- Local Meetups and Events (merges Local Meetups and Upcoming Events)

 

Sean

 

[Jeff]

Are interviews and textual studies both supposed to only be subsets of Daoist?  Maybe move both up a layer?  Or at least interviews.

 

Thanks,

Jeff