Neanderthal Diet/Human Protein Max

[escott]

Interesting overall, but one little tidbit jumped out at me:

 

We modern humans can only tolerate about 35 percent of lean protein in our diets before our kidneys start to suffer.

 

https://www.sapiens.org/column/field-trips/neanderthal-diet/

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by escott

[Taomeow]

Prolefeed for science... 

 

I've been reading the zerocarb reddit subforum for about a year and a half (yes, I had somewhere to go while not on TDB  ) and there's lots of people there who have been eating nothing but meat and animal fat for years.  Many of them monitor their lab work religiously.  Most of them freak out their doctors by reverting from poor to stellar health. 

 

The real reason it's not a good idea to eat more than 35 percent lean protein in one sitting is that in the absence of adequate fat, and outside the state of ketosis (not to be confused with ketoacidosis), the body will promptly convert all that extra protein to sugar (glucose), in a metabolic process known as glucogenesis.  So eating more lean meat winds up being equivalent to eating a hi-carb diet, the body doesn't care it's a steak, if it's lean and you are not getting any quality (animal) fat with it and/or haven't set your system (with a diet that can flip the switch) to burning ketones instead of glucogen for energy, it will turn that steak into a metabolic equivalent of a cake.  And that's what the kidneys (like every other system) will object to.  Excessive sugar in the bloodstream...       

[escott]

28 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

eating more lean meat winds up being equivalent to eating a hi-carb diet

 

So are you saying it's more healthy to eat meat with a high fat content?

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, escott said:

 

So are you saying it's more healthy to eat meat with a high fat content?

 

Yes.  (In terms of cuts, boneless short ribs appear to be the champion.  I also cook with butter, ghee or lard.)  Of course the cleaner the source of meat, the better, and grass-fed is best (though there's no clarity what exactly is allowed to term "grass fed" commercially...  but I don't want to look too closely into everything food regulations related or I'll wind up anorexic.)  But overall, we're primarily designed as fat-for-energy burning machines -- slow and steady.  Getting energy from the stored glucogen is an additional,  emergency mechanism we have in our design, specifically for situations when a short-term burst of high energy that's needed immediately, not slow and steady, is the imperative of the moment (e.g. to run away from a predator or to catch up with the running-away prey).   Switching the whole species, courtesy of grain and other starches agriculture, to using this emergency back-up system as the primary system instead is the starchy root of many long term bodily ills, mental too far as I've been able to discern.  And the recent push into "low fat" diets didn't make things better.  And those fats that are still touted as permissible or even "good fats" being unsaturated (an invitation to peroxidative chaos in the body instead of the stable, oxidation-resistant fuel saturated fats are) doesn't help.

 

 

[Phoenix3]

@Taomeow

Are you saying you just eat meat and dairy, with no vegetables or carbohydrates? I’m not judging, just that seems to be what you’re saying?

 

If humans were supposed to eat just meat, wouldn’t man just have sharp, pointy teeth? Also a lot of carnivores don’t chew their food, but humans do chew their food. Carnivore’s saliva is acidic but human’s saliva is alkali. The physiology of humans doesn’t seem to align with being a carnivore.

[Taomeow]

12 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

@Taomeow

Are you saying you just eat meat and dairy, with no vegetables or carbohydrates? I’m not judging, just that seems to be what you’re saying?

 

If humans were supposed to eat just meat, wouldn’t man just have sharp, pointy teeth? Also a lot of carnivores don’t chew their food, but humans do chew their food. Carnivore’s saliva is acidic but human’s saliva is alkali. The physiology of humans doesn’t seem to align with being a carnivore.

 

 May I suggest a self-education course.    https://www.reddit.com/r/zerocarb/   

 

I don't eat like that though, and didn't say I did.  I might experiment with it someday, or not.  I'm pretty satisfied with a close-to-paleo but not always strict regimen of my own, the outcome of a lifetime of explorations and a whole bookcase dedicated to the subject of nutrition, from various epochs and continents.  My current thing is, and has been for years, high fat, moderate protein, low carbs, and mostly no grains, no legumes and no starchy vegetables.  Absolutely no junk food, unless you count an occasional Haagen-Dazs butter pecan ice cream.  I do eat fruits (avoiding the sweetest among them) and berries, non-starchy veggies (often fermented -- kimchi, raw sauerkraut, homemade pickles), and put a spoonful of sugar in my coffee.  I don't avoid alcohol either, nor tea, nor an occasional bit of chocolate.  This is sort of average for me, it can go to either extreme from there and occasionally does -- to very strict when I'm in the position and in the mood to do thorough planning (if you're going to do strict paleo, you can't just grab "whatever" at the store, you have to plan the hunt and the gathering and the storage, and then hunt and gather and store -- and cook like a machine!!) -- or to very lax (e.g. when traveling, eating out, going to a party, and then typically dealing with the aftermath of being dragged after the wagon for a while after having fallen off it. )

 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Taomeow

[Phoenix3]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

May I suggest a self-education course.

 

Thanks, that is very interesting!

 

Would it be ok to mainly eat cheese, yogurt and eggs? I’m too poor to buy red meat every day.

 

I agree with your approach too. Eating some plants should be ok, like kimchi or chocolate.

[Ancestor Paul]

In my humble opinion I believe eating meat regularly is an obstacle to cultivation. Thou shall not kill also applies to the animals and it’s irresponsible for a cultivator to eat the flesh of a fellow life form all for the sake of pleasure. Does a little lamb need to die for us to enjoy a meal, isn’t this the kind of desire we need to dissolve in other to fully grasp the dao.

Most cultivators I know do not eat meat and are vegan, as a matter of fact a cultivator aspire to be  either frutarian ot breatharian to absorb more chi from these foods and the air. Meat on the other hand only provides pleasure of the mouth and calories in form of energy, but is that meat doing more good that bad in your body, all for taste of flesh we get high cholesterol, high blood pressure, quick aging and clogging of arteries and veins, even science proves that meat is a Neanderthal behavior and not a sustainable diet for long life.

 

At the end of the day we are blessed with free will, the dao is all about balance so you can decide the eat what ever we desire as far as we are ready to accept the results of our nature. The body is thy temple, what ever goes into it we become.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Killing plants is totally cool, we get to kill things and have a mental separation of higher and lower life forms. 

 

Who does god love most a plant, an animal, a baby or a baptized baby? This was an illustration from bible school when I was a kid.

 

The correct answer IMO is that the question is wrong in sooo many of ways.

[Taomeow]

7 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

Thanks, that is very interesting!

 

Would it be ok to mainly eat cheese, yogurt and eggs? I’m too poor to buy red meat every day.

 

I agree with your approach too. Eating some plants should be ok, like kimchi or chocolate.

 

I think you could try to plan your food budget around what you can afford toward some more options, and I would favor (if you have access to it) some inexpensive fish over cheese as a staple.  Of course "inexpensive fish" is another item to hunt down.  Where do you shop?  Trader Joe's has inexpensive frozen fish, and for fresh, I'd try to discover an Asian supermarket if they exist in your area, they typically have a large choice.  Cheese I don't find particularly economical if it's good -- in fact, really good is quite unreasonably expensive, and really cheap may have stuff on the label you don't want in your body.  Also, you don't need huge portions of meat if you keep your saturated fat intake high (a prerequisite for success with low carb diets, otherwise you will be hungry and craving carbs).    And don't overlook organ meats if you can find them.  Chicken livers are very cheap, e.g., and could be a nice addition to your food plan.  Bones for broth -- a bone broth goes a long way.  And I make real Native American pemmican out of the marrow.  And then add it to my eggs.  It is a pain to prepare but then it lasts forever.   

 

[Taomeow]

44 minutes ago, Ancestor Paul said:

In my humble opinion I believe eating meat regularly is an obstacle to cultivation. Thou shall not kill also applies to the animals and it’s irresponsible for a cultivator to eat the flesh of a fellow life form all for the sake of pleasure. Does a little lamb need to die for us to enjoy a meal, isn’t this the kind of desire we need to dissolve in other to fully grasp the dao.

Most cultivators I know do not eat meat and are vegan, as a matter of fact a cultivator aspire to be  either frutarian ot breatharian to absorb more chi from these foods and the air. Meat on the other hand only provides pleasure of the mouth and calories in form of energy, but is that meat doing more good that bad in your body, all for taste of flesh we get high cholesterol, high blood pressure, quick aging and clogging of arteries and veins, even science proves that meat is a Neanderthal behavior and not a sustainable diet for long life.

 

At the end of the day we are blessed with free will, the dao is all about balance so you can decide the eat what ever we desire as far as we are ready to accept the results of our nature. The body is thy temple, what ever goes into it we become.

 

May I suggest an eye-opening book.

 

[Ancestor Paul]

7 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

May I suggest an eye-opening book.

 

I just downloaded the book and will give this a read, seems interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Phoenix3]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I think you could try to plan your food budget around what you can afford toward some more options, and I would favor (if you have access to it) some inexpensive fish over cheese as a staple.  Of course "inexpensive fish" is another item to hunt down.  Where do you shop?  Trader Joe's has inexpensive frozen fish, and for fresh, I'd try to discover an Asian supermarket if they exist in your area, they typically have a large choice.  Cheese I don't find particularly economical if it's good -- in fact, really good is quite unreasonably expensive, and really cheap may have stuff on the label you don't want in your body.  Also, you don't need huge portions of meat if you keep your saturated fat intake high (a prerequisite for success with low carb diets, otherwise you will be hungry and craving carbs).    And don't overlook organ meats if you can find them.  Chicken livers are very cheap, e.g., and could be a nice addition to your food plan.  Bones for broth -- a bone broth goes a long way.  And I make real Native American pemmican out of the marrow.  And then add it to my eggs.  It is a pain to prepare but then it lasts forever.   

 

 

I don’t live in North America. I just visit my local butcher or local grocery shop for food. Where I am, tinned tuna, kefir, free-range chicken and organic eggs are very reasonably priced, and cheese is very cheap, good quality and delicious (I live in Europe), with lots of protein and fat content. Also plain, unsweetened yogurt is cheap too. But chicken hasn’t got enough fat.

 

On the website you linked, many people said that cheese is not a good idea, but I think in north America the cheese most people buy is that strange orange cheese which has a bad reputation. So I don’t know if they are complaining about that particular cheese and think all cheese is like that.

 

I could eat fish, but the fish from the oceans has a lot of bad stuff in it, and farmed fish is expensive. And eating fish can get really boring. It’s the most bland and tasteless type of meat in my opinion (i’m sure others will disagree, but I just don’t like eating fish). It only tastes delicious when it’s like sushi, but I don’t intend to eat raw fish at all.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Phoenix3

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I don’t live in North America. I just visit my local butcher or local grocery shop for food. Where I am, tinned tuna, kefir, free-range chicken and organic eggs are very reasonably priced, and cheese is very cheap, good quality and delicious (I live in Europe), with lots of protein and fat content. Also plain, unsweetened yogurt is cheap too. But chicken hasn’t got enough fat.

 

On the website you linked, many people said that cheese is not a good idea, but I think in north America the cheese most people buy is that strange orange cheese which has a bad reputation. So I don’t know if they are complaining about that particular cheese and think all cheese is like that.

 

I could eat fish, but the fish from the oceans has a lot of bad stuff in it, and farmed fish is expensive. And eating fish can get really boring. It’s the most bland and tasteless type of meat in my opinion (i’m sure others will disagree, but I just don’t like eating fish). It only tastes delicious when it’s like sushi, but I don’t intend to eat raw fish at all.

 

Ah, yes, I do think nearly everywhere in Europe "average" people eat better than in the US.  Well, it's good that you have access to good dairy (and not too many issues with it -- there's quite a few people who don't seem to handle it well, I do thrive on it when it's all-natural, but "ultra-pasteurized" gives me the creeps -- to think that I used to have an issue with just "pasteurized," now I always try to look for it and usually with little success, they "ultra-pasteurize" even most organic dairy now, what a travesty...  and "raw" does cost an arm and a leg at a local HFS.  Still, I buy raw kefir and raw butter on occasion, and raw cheeses from Europe when I can't help myself -- they do cost a fortune here.)  Still, "protein" is only partially the name of the game.  There's more to the game...  speaking of game, I'd love to lay my hands on that, but...  Sigh.   

 

I also eat raw fish only as sashimi, but find it very satisfying.  And I know many ways to cook fish so it's nothing if not delicious -- but my fish choices are limited here to ocean varieties, whereas the best tasting fish is river and lake fish...  Sigh.   

Edited September 22, 2019 by Taomeow

[Phoenix3]

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I also eat raw fish only as sashimi, but find it very satisfying.

 

Aren’t you concerned of parasites? Lemon juice doesn’t get everything.

 

I think all places have their advantages and disadvantages. European food is good quality, but everything apart from the basics are so expensive, especially red meat.

 

One last concern on my mind is that it’s often said that when the body gets too acidic, the body gets sick easily. Well, doesn’t eating meat make the body more acidic, and eating vegetables make the body more alkaline?

[Taomeow]

14 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

Aren’t you concerned of parasites? Lemon juice doesn’t get everything.

 

What lemon juice?  I put wasabi on my sashimi.  Always ask for some extra too.  Wasabi kills parasites and bacteria.  

 

15 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

One last concern on my mind is that it’s often said that when the body gets too acidic, the body gets sick easily. Well, doesn’t eating meat make the body more acidic, and eating vegetables make the body more alkaline?

   

Please don't shoot the messenger...  This whole line of thinking is junk science at its worst, a virulent meme with a life of its own that has no basis in reality. 

 

There's no such thing as "acidic" or "alkaline" body.  There's very strict parameters of the acid-alkaline balance of different fluids maintained in the human body.  What one of them is like at any given time tells you absolutely nothing about the rest.  The hydrochloric acid that is produced by the human stomach to digest proteins is as acidic as it gets (or we wouldn't be able to even digest mother's milk at the breast, let alone whole bones some taoists swallow to train themselves from the inside), and the production, sadly, declines with age (most probably not so much from aging itself as from inadequate lifelong diets), which can cause many problems.  (The body also downregulates hydrochloric acid production if its owner is not eating enough protein -- that's the case with all digestive enzymes too, what you're not exposed to gets downregulated, the body doesn't want to work for nothing.)  In some cases people suffer from low or even zero adicity of their stomach juices, the condition is a spectrum from unpleasant to debilitating.  In other cases there's stomach hyperacidity, but it is usually the outcome of a complex metabolic problem, in many cases related to stress.  

 

Now then, the blood is the one fluid that can't go "acidic" or "alkaline" outside a very narrow range.  The normal blood PH is very tightly regulated between 7.35 and 7.45.  It can't, and does not, respond to your diet with any wide fluctuations.  Any deviation from these parameters is dangerous and can be life-threatening.  Acidosis -- when blood gets more acidic -- is usually the outcome of kidney or lungs disorder and often demands urgent medical attention.  Its opposite, alkalosis -- when blood gets more alkaline -- is usually the outcome of metabolic, hormonal, or respiratory illnesses and often demands urgent medical attention.

 

Then there's a wide range of acidity-alkalinity of the urine.  With a ketogenic diet, you don't just change the acidity  of your urine (although measuring it can help determine if you're really in ketosis you' re shooting for -- not to be confused with ketoacidosis, a dangerous complication of some illnesses, e.g. diabetes).  You actually switch the pathways whereby your body gets energy, from burning glycogen (sugar and starches derived) to burning ketones (fat derived). 

 

Before this post grows into a dissertation (which I could write on the subject anytime if someone paid me), let's just leave it at, "for every complex process, there's a simple explanation -- the wrong one."  What those hippies measure in their mouth, i.e. the acidity or alkalinity of their saliva, has everything to do with the indigenous bacteria (a very individual population) in one's mouth, which can change it in response to the foods it likes or dislikes, but it's useful to remember that the food preferences of your mouth bacteria may have nothing to do with what's good for you.  They are the ones responsible for you dental bills after all, so you can safely assume that they maintain their own acidity or alkalinity with nothing like your best interest at heart.  Oh, and it gives you zero information about anything I've talked about above -- any of the body fluids and their PH and whether it's good, bad or a non-issue.  

[Ancestor Paul]

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

One last concern on my mind is that it’s often said that when the body gets too acidic, the body gets sick easily. Well, doesn’t eating meat make the body more acidic, and eating vegetables make the body more alkaline?

This is 100% correct. Research Dr Sebi, you will be more enlightened, by the way this man was able to heal every disease he was met with. All alkaline herbal and holistic doctors will agree to this.

 

14 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Please don't shoot the messenger...  This whole line of thinking is junk science at its worst, a virulent meme with a life of its own that has no basis in reality. 

For you to call this junk science means you haven’t done enough research on this subject, and by that I mean from both the perspective  modern and herbal medicine, what happens when meat is left without refrigeration, it begins to rot. Same thing happens when it’s in your body, it begins to ferment and produce uric acid which is acidic. Your body is not a fridge so it will rot in the body and meats takes more than 48 hours to leave the body, that’s why a meat eaters poo smells like dead animals. This is not the case for a vegan or fruitarian. 

 

As  a doa practitioner it is wise to put yourself if the shoes of others, how would you feel if a race of giants breeded your kind like animals to eat just because you tasted good, that’s exactly what we’re doing to the animals. physically mentally and spiritually, eating the flesh of any animal Can never be justified in the way of the dao.

 

speakin of science, the WHO specified that eating Red meat, processed meats and gmo meat  was classified as carcinogenic to humans and eating plant based diet has been know to reverse any disease even cancer, ill advice you to do more reasearch To ensure you’re not information is accurate.

 

 

[Nungali]

^ Interesting info ^

 

 

 

Natural milk eggs and meat are good for you .

 

Oh wait ..... 'new research' has shown they are not  .... cholesterol  - nasty .

 

Oh wait .... 'newer research' has shown they are good for you  .

 

 

 

( When I was living up on the plateau, the soil is very good there ; grows excellent potatoes and other veg, good for grazing, also there is a trout farm nearby in a pristine river .  The local butcher only sold meat from the surrounding farms , no imports .

 

I used to like making meals from all local ingredients ;  Smoked trout, potato salad, and garden veg salad.  Steak and potatoes and veg.

 

I think the local soil and environment are important

 

( Archaeologists can tell where some people lived and roamed  because their food had a specific mineral signature relating to the land it grew on  and that is lodged in their bones )

 

Another recent innovation is the  ' mobile  abattoir ' .... Instead of  stressful and expensive  trucking to huge regional abattoirs ( since a heap of smaller regional ones have shut and that has driven a lot of small farms out of business , or given over to 'big biz' ) and then being distributed all over the place ,  a  couple of modified  trucks come on to your farm - cows in one end , meat out the other and to the local butcher .

 

I lived on a farm , I dont want to do the big biz,   I have slaughtered and butchered a cow manually - I dont want to do that either , this new method seems the better option - you can control food quality and content  from the ' soil up' .

 

 Dorrigo Plateau soil ;

 

 

 

[Nungali]

... some  people can live happy and fulfilling lives  living  on sea and  ice and off blubber, seals and fish .

[Phoenix3]

Daoists are very much in favour of eating meat. Chinese culture and chinese medicine sees plenty of benefit of eating meat, and only due to famines did Chinese people stop eating meat temporarily. 

 

I originally wondered about the uric acid problem. I knew that blood is kept at a constant pH, but the thought of all these new acids circulating around the body may cause some problems. But Taomeow said not to worry about it, and since I don’t have any real evidence more than a concern, I will agree with her. I agree with her because on the subject of food, she knows what she is talking about (in my opinion).

[Taomeow]

1 minute ago, Phoenix3 said:

Daoists are very much in favour of eating meat. Chinese culture and chinese medicine sees plenty of benefit of eating meat, and only due to famines did Chinese people stop eating meat temporarily. 

 

I originally wondered about the uric acid problem. I knew that blood is kept at a constant pH, but the thought of all these new acids circulating around the body may cause some problems. But Taomeow said not to worry about it, and since I don’t have any real evidence more than a concern, I will agree with her. I agree with her because on the subject of food, she knows what she is talking about (in my opinion).

 

Thank you, Phoenix3.  Oh, the stories I could tell about how and why I got to learn everything under the sun about nutrition and then everything hidden from the light of the sun too...  The stories I could tell about my real-life schooling and real-life teachers, gurus, ex-gurus, faux gurus, true masters I apprenticed under...  The stories I could tell about people I met, problems they had, solutions we found...  

 

Not today though.  Today it would tantamount to Giordano Bruno's lawyer asking the Holy Inquisition to abandon its teachings.  He would promptly join his client at the stake if he did. 

[liminal_luke]

30 minutes ago, Ancestor Paul said:

 

For you to call this junk science means you haven’t done enough research on this subject, 

 

 

You might be the first Bum in history to state that Taomeow hasn´t "done enough research" on any subject. Just sayin´.

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

You might be the first Bum in history to state that Taomeow hasn´t "done enough research" on any subject. Just sayin´.

 

 

 

 Thanks for noticing  

[Nungali]

.... '  join you at the steak  '    ....      

 

 

 

[Ancestor Paul]

12 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

Daoists are very much in favour of eating meat. Chinese culture and chinese medicine sees plenty of benefit of eating meat, and only due to famines did Chinese people stop eating meat temporarily. 

Chinese daoist Way is not the same and should not define the dao for the rest of us, and not all daoist approve of meat.

14 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

I originally wondered about the uric acid problem. I knew that blood is kept at a constant pH, but the thought of all these new acids circulating around the body may cause some problems.

Have you wondered why birds and chickens do not pee, they sweat it out through their skin and that Uric acid.

15 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

Taomeow said not to worry about it, and since I don’t have any real evidence more than a concern, I will agree with her. I agree with her because on the subject of food, she knows what she is talking about (in my opinion).

Again your opinion is highly respected, but in an information era where information is free and accessible, I see no reason why you would agree to the way of another simply because you have no evidence even when I’m aware a lot of it exists.