Spontaneous movements, are they safe for people who don't know about the internal arts?

[-_sometimes]

Hey folks, new guy here.. was browsing this site yesterday, thought it was pretty cool, and well.. I'm hoping some informed people might be able to help me out

 

Whilst on a shroom trip a year and a half ago, I noticed that my body could move on its own if I took personal will away from the equation, which resulting in some rythmic movements and huge burst of energy up the spine which dissolved around my head. Since that time, my body, the upper body in particular; arms, hands and neck, will move of their own accord if i take away personal will - if I stop trying to hold myself when standing, and simply allow the body to be, my hands will begin to float upwards, followed by the arms, moving in various directions, locking in and out of positions, neck moving this way and that.. recently expanding to quite exaggerated movements. 

 

Many mistakes were made  - mostly through not letting go of the personal will enough, and accidentally 'assisting' internal movement by somehow channelling my existential angst into them haha.. focusing on parts of the body creating imbalances, resulting recently in feeling like a pool of liquid is collecting around my forehead between the eyes, with such intensity it would feel like my face would explode. Thankfully this painful circumstance happens less now as I am better at telling when I am actually letting go of personal will. I am much better at simply being 'natural' these days, and combined with stopping meditation and taking up zen study, things are much, much better these days.

 

However. These movements are still occurring - when still almost constant internal movements like the the cervical spine is constantly adjusting, particularly when practising zhan zhuang (which I have taken up to gain better awareness of the spine and internal process). Often I am apt to forget the exercise and just move into the spontaneous movements, which last for as long as I entertain them, sometimes hours until I am too tired to focus. 

I am deeply concerned that I may be messing up my body. I know very little about qi, but I do know you can severely fuck things up if you don't know what you are doing. I am aware my spine is not correctly aligned, or that something about the shoulders, neck and arms is misaligned, as it was in pretty bad shape before I began the spontaneous movements, and whilst I don't look like a developing hunchback now, stand taller and straighter, walk with decent awareness, I still have issues - brain fog, constant tiredness, feeling energy physically moving in my face, itching around the back of the neck when left unscratched feels like tingling and cold ants crawling up the surface of the skin, lower spinal 'jerks' whilst sleeping, incessant internal movement like the bones in the neck are adjusting when my head is down, resulting in a movement from side to side of the neck, that I can't really stop, headaches, pressure in the head. A lot xD

 

What should I do? How do I go about this? I can't ignore that I feel the 'potential' in my arms and hands whenever i leave them be, it feels perfectly natural to allow the movements to occur, not something harmful or bad at all when I don't try to control or or excessively feed the movements. Should I continue with zhan zhuang to gain a better understand internal, or stop and just keep following the movements? I hear many say you need a teacher to practice spontaneous whatever, but I never learnt how to do it anyone, I  just 'activated' the ability to notice that the body can move if you just stop trying to control it. I can't afford a teacher, so should I perhaps learn more about a certain internal art? qigong? kundalini yoga? What about warm up and cool down? i hear that is essential when practising spontaneity?

 

 

Apologies for all the questions, I don't need anyone to answer them all, I just need some guidance pls help

[Zork]

You need specialist help once the spontaneous movements don't go away. It won't be easy to get rid of them.

Try contacting Eric Isen at https://ayurvedicintuitive.com/

If he can't help you, very few can.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Zork

[Earl Grey]

In my experience, yes they are not good without formal instruction. Bad for people with mental health and emotional health issues, very bad for people on shrooms and other influences, extremely bad for self-taught.

 

I studied two spontaneous practices before with John Dolic and Eric Randolph. EDIT: I am no longer associated with Eric Randolph.

 

A European shaolin tradition uses spontaneous as their foundational training but it has very polarizing opinions from former students and tends towards the negative.

 

Avoid them unless you have good instruction. One teacher who does a DVD is Michael Lomax and it’s there too but has some instructions. I don’t recommend it highly though and only know one individual who did okay on his own in Germany and even then he is cautious about it as he did a lot of study.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Earl Grey

[-_sometimes]

25 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

In my experience, yes they are not good without formal instruction. Bad for people with mental health and emotional health issues, very bad for people on shrooms and other influences, extremely bad for self-taught.

 

I studied two spontaneous practices before with John Dolic and Eric Randolph.

 

A European shaolin tradition uses spontaneous as their foundational training but it has very polarizing opinions from former students and tends towards the negative.

 

Avoid them unless you have good instruction. One teacher who does a DVD is Michael Lomax and it’s there too but has some instructions. I don’t recommend it highly though and only know one individual who did okay on his own in Germany and even then he is cautious about it as he did a lot of study.

Thanks for responding!

What would you consider to be good instruction? Why is it bad if self taught - what if you read the right books and understood how to safely stop the movements after 'letting go' for a period. Would it still be so bad? What if I do everything in my power to ensure that 'I' am not the one controlling the movements? Wouldn't that, and not knowing how to stop, be the most significant issue?

I can't afford instruction - just how it is at the moment.. are there any alternatives?

[-_sometimes]

36 minutes ago, Zork said:

You need specialist help once the spontaneous movements don't go away. It won't be easy to get rid of them.

Try contacting Eric Isen at https://ayurvedicintuitive.com/

If he can't help you, very few can.

Why do you recommend this individual? 

[Zork]

Just now, -_sometimes said:

Why do you recommend this individual? 

Because he has helped people with similar issues in the past.

Your symptoms are very common with people experimenting* with kundalini or spontaneous systems like spontaneous five animals.

 

*By experimenting i mean not having guidance or doing things on a whim by violating instructions.

[Earl Grey]

13 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

Thanks for responding!

What would you consider to be good instruction? Why is it bad if self taught - what if you read the right books and understood how to safely stop the movements after 'letting go' for a period. Would it still be so bad? What if I do everything in my power to ensure that 'I' am not the one controlling the movements? Wouldn't that, and not knowing how to stop, be the most significant issue?

I can't afford instruction - just how it is at the moment.. are there any alternatives?

 

I do not recommend getting the free instruction that is available because the price is that you do not have guidance. 

 

Good instruction comes from my two teachers I mentioned. 

 

It is bad if self-taught because you as a total beginner do not know how to recognize your own body and what is a good amount of movement. In spontaneous five animals for example, beginners are advised not to do too much movement in the beginning because their eyes are closed and can harm themselves and bump into things--the body is exercising and developing its energetic and physical bodies simultaneously. 

 

There are no "right books" because most are written as marketing for more students or by disgruntled "teachers" who are giving the finger to their lineage--otherwise, they are unqualified or come from questionable imaginary lineage.

 

Doing everything in your power to not be the one controlling the movements is actually worse because you do not know how to control the "on and off" and "reset" buttons so to speak that are either in the system or given as foundation LONG BEFORE you learn spontaneous practice from qualified teachers. 

 

You can make a deal with Dolic as he is very open to helping people out if they are sincere. There are people who offer free variations, but if you lack the guidance of someone who can answer questions and oversee your progress or deficiencies, then that's all on you.

 

I've also tried Inner Dance--a Philippine variation that has proven psychotic issues for many practitioners and serious ego problems. 

 

Take it from an experienced practitioner or dismiss it because it isn't convenient for you whether financially or because you're determined to have something very powerful so easily--I've had this argument with too many people to prolong these conversations more than three messages. 

 

Eric Isen as mentioned above can also give his insight in spontaneous practice. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Earl Grey

[-_sometimes]

8 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I do not recommend getting the free instruction that is available because the price is that you do not have guidance. 

 

Good instruction comes from my two teachers I mentioned. 

 

It is bad if self-taught because you as a total beginner do not know how to recognize your own body and what is a good amount of movement. In spontaneous five animals for example, beginners are advised not to do too much movement in the beginning because their eyes are closed and can harm themselves and bump into things--the body is exercising and developing its energetic and physical bodies simultaneously. 

 

There are no "right books" because most are written as marketing for more students or by disgruntled "teachers" who are giving the finger to their lineage--otherwise, they are unqualified or come from questionable imaginary lineage.

 

Doing everything in your power to not be the one controlling the movements is actually worse because you do not know how to control the "on and off" and "reset" buttons so to speak that are either in the system or given as foundation LONG BEFORE you learn spontaneous practice from qualified teachers. 

 

You can make a deal with Dolic as he is very open to helping people out if they are sincere. There are people who offer free variations, but if you lack the guidance of someone who can answer questions and oversee your progress or deficiencies, then that's all on you.

 

I've also tried Inner Dance--a Philippine variation that has proven psychotic issues for many practitioners and serious ego problems. 

 

Take it from an experienced practitioner or dismiss it because it isn't convenient for you whether financially or because you're determined to have something very powerful so easily--I've had this argument with too many people to prolong these conversations more than three messages. 

 

Eric Isen as mentioned above can also give his insight in spontaneous practice. 

Should I make sure my lifestyle is in perfect order before contacting anyone? I feel some symptoms may be a result of a large sleep deficit, poor diet, not enough exercise etc.. perhaps first I should ensure I am doing what I can physically? 

I mean I can live ok with these symptoms; I've had them for over a year so it's not that difficult anymore, particular when coupled with zen'ish' mindfulness. 

 

Would you say I should avoid indulging in all spontaneous movement? You see I practice zhan zhuang and whilst standing my neck will move randomly, just 'click' in this direction and that, but it's not an issue that lasts beyond the exercise if I so choose. Even if I leave letting go of the body alone, it makes sense to at least gain some sort of awareness of what is going on right? 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, -_sometimes said:

Should I make sure my lifestyle is in perfect order before contacting anyone? I feel some symptoms may be a result of a large sleep deficit, poor diet, not enough exercise etc.. perhaps first I should ensure I am doing what I can physically? 

I mean I can live ok with these symptoms; I've had them for over a year so it's not that difficult anymore, particular when coupled with zen'ish' mindfulness. 

 

Would you say I should avoid indulging in all spontaneous movement? You see I practice zhan zhuang and whilst standing my neck will move randomly, just 'click' in this direction and that, but it's not an issue that lasts beyond the exercise if I so choose. Even if I leave letting go of the body alone, it makes sense to at least gain some sort of awareness of what is going on right? 

 

Contact Isen now because you may be screwing yourself over by self-diagnosing rather than going to a trained professional. Dolic is also a TCM doctor on top of his many qigong practices, so they both know what they are talking about and can save you potential trauma or permanent damage. 

 

Right now you seem to think that these are simple problems and in the absence of esoteric practice, a physician can give you some insight, but once you start messing with qigong or kundalini, you're seriously increasing the risk of harm. 

 

There will be some spontaneous movements that are okay such as when you sit or stand in Zhan Zhuang because of involuntary tension and the nerves "rewiring themselves" from ZZ. This continues based on the quality of your practice, but it goes away fast with a good teacher. It lasted a few months for me after I got to about an hour each session. Another friend got it after years of ZZ and he developed his own spontaneous practice from doing all the postures for hours daily. 

 

From a martial perspective it is not good because if you can't control it in a battle you will die. From a healing perspective, if you don't know what you're doing, it's like taking rat poison because the color looks the same as aspirin.

 

I hope this third message makes things clear and if you're still set on doing things your way, you're free to do what you will because as I've said, I don't like to go beyond three messages, especially if someone is not interested in heeding these cautions or in an argument where the same things are said and repeated too many times.

[-_sometimes]

Well I've gone ahead and contacted Isen. We shall see how it goes, since I can't exactly afford his consultation fees haha..

Thank you both for your advice; i have one final question if you don't mind - if I am unable to get help from the individuals you have mentioned, what should I do? Earl Grey you have now made me very (rightly) concerned about my condition and I can't actually do anything about it right now 

Is there really nothing I can do except seek guidance from reputable teachers?

[Earl Grey]

40 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

Well I've gone ahead and contacted Isen. We shall see how it goes, since I can't exactly afford his consultation fees haha..

Thank you both for your advice; i have one final question if you don't mind - if I am unable to get help from the individuals you have mentioned, what should I do? Earl Grey you have now made me very (rightly) concerned about my condition and I can't actually do anything about it right now 

Is there really nothing I can do except seek guidance from reputable teachers?

 

Eric Isen and his skill/gift are beyond the value he asks for people to pay frankly speaking. 

 

The good teachers I've encountered look for sincerity more than cash and people who don't want to pay usually don't value the art or the skill or the knowledge of an instructor. So if it's not worth it to you, a teacher won't do much until you change, but if it is worth it (and by default you say you are worth it), you'll work out a deal with them and they respond to dedication and sincerity. 

 

For your health conditions, see your GP; for spontaneous, my recommendations are Eric Isen and John Dolic and a couple other teachers or a different qigong system all together like Flying Phoenix. 

 

Just PM me at this point after this message if you're really serious. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Phantalor]

Well if you dont want to go to a professional for this, and like standing meditation, try reading the book by mark cohen, it may prove useful.

And regarding the spontaneous internal movements, they seem more to be in accordance with realinging your spine and misaligned body structure movements that occur when doing Standing meditation. 

Also concerning damage due to self taught internal arts, personally i think there is no such thing, only if you overdraw your own potential due to overestimating yourself (and that is the only thing you need a good teacher for ... to hold you back if you want to do something you are not able to), the only thing that can occur may be that you may stagnate at some point.

Because remember: Who taught the first masters and guided them? Personally i believe listening to their body did this, and if you can do so that may be the best way for you.

 

And well purely from a medical standpoint let somebody look after your spine, spontaneous movements may  also occur due to pinched nerves and have nothing to do with your practices

 

Edit: this is purely my thought on this, and frankly im an inexperienced. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Phantalor

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, Phantalor said:

Edit: this is purely my thought on this, and frankly im an inexperienced. 

 

Yes the above is an opinion, but not a qualified opinion as you admit you are inexperienced. 

 

I am an instructor and that is where my own opinion is derived from. 

 

Also, the masters received transmission--the OP is NOT receiving transmission. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

Let's also recall the OP said it came from shrooms. The masters were in a totally different state--they were in deep meditative flow--this is NOT what comes from taking shrooms or ANY substance.

 

And yes, ABSOLUTELY you can be damaged from self-taught internal arts. You don't realize how often my teachers and I deal with idiots who have qi deviation from this and you probably haven't seen how many people tried to teach themselves from random information on the net and this forum. One person injured himself from pressing his thumb into his perineum after masturbating but not ejaculating, and it led to permanent constant pain while having no access to masters or TCM doctors, and western physicians can't do anything for him. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Phantalor]

8 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

You don't realize how often my teachers and I deal with idiots who have qi deviation from this and you probably haven't seen how many people tried to teach themselves from random information on the net and this forum. One person injured himself from pressing his thumb into his perineum after masturbating but not ejaculating, and it led to permanent constant pain while having no access to masters or TCM doctors, and western physicians can't do anything for him. 

Well, no i don´t and sadly there are not many teachers in some areas of this world, so some people have for whatever reason ( ... and frankly most teachers here in germany i tried up to now are money grabbing fraud ) to resort to be self taught(lets call them loose cultivators ... ) but then again you have to differenciate these people

... as you said, there are idiots, that are disillusioned by novels or whatever they read and they take information they see as true to the point of reverence, which is in my opinion stupid and also overestimationg oneself ... and for these people there is the so called darwin award... you have to take everything with a pinch of salt

But then again OP at least asks for opinions, while his meditation horrendously failed, and he seems to have overheated at least some of his upper meridians,

he asks for help, and in my opinion, according to his questions, "right done" zhan zhuang may help him in resolving and alleviating some of his pains, thats why i would recommend cohens book, as it at least gives him a decent start in understanding what is an indication if he does something wrong. And i know some people do not like his book, since the stances he explains do not exactly match the ones of their school.

 

8 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Let's also recall the OP said it came from shrooms. The masters were in a totally different state--they were in deep meditative flow--this is NOT what comes from taking shrooms or ANY substance.

Shrooms are also a way to let go of useless toughts and get into a state of selflessness, just that it tends more into the shamanistic systems, lets not forget that point. 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

6 hours ago, Phantalor said:

Well, no i don´t and sadly there are not many teachers in some areas of this world, so some people have for whatever reason ( ... and frankly most teachers here in germany i tried up to now are money grabbing fraud ) to resort to be self taught(lets call them loose cultivators ... ) but then again you have to differenciate these people

 

Totally true. Some of them were on this forum and have been banned for scamming members.

 

6 hours ago, Phantalor said:

... as you said, there are idiots, that are disillusioned by novels or whatever they read and they take information they see as true to the point of reverence, which is in my opinion stupid and also overestimationg oneself ... and for these people there is the so called darwin award... you have to take everything with a pinch of salt

 

Blame it on one brilliant author who claimed he hid techniques in his book and now has disavowed himself of the system he supposedly represented before.

 

6 hours ago, Phantalor said:

But then again OP at least asks for opinions, while his meditation horrendously failed, and he seems to have overheated at least some of his upper meridians,

 

I wouldn't say overheating of upper meridians--I'll leave that to either of the doctors above mentioned to assess that even if I can comment but I don't want others to read that and assume the same for themselves!

 

6 hours ago, Phantalor said:

he asks for help, and in my opinion, according to his questions, "right done" zhan zhuang may help him in resolving and alleviating some of his pains, thats why i would recommend cohens book, as it at least gives him a decent start in understanding what is an indication if he does something wrong. And i know some people do not like his book, since the stances he explains do not exactly match the ones of their school.

 

I have zero opinion of Cohen, but I also teach Zhan Zhuang from a Yi Quan perspective and plenty of members here could use adjustments, even those who read Lam Kam Chuen's book. Even one picture or video tells me a dozen things that will lead to problems down the line and what actually won't help in their practice. I do not recommend learning from books and YouTube, and even then I'm cautious when someone has learned Zhan Zhuang from Healing Tao's DVDs.

 

6 hours ago, Phantalor said:

Shrooms are also a way to let go of useless toughts and get into a state of selflessness, just that it tends more into the shamanistic systems, lets not forget that point. 

 

This might be true, but when done while someone practices Zhan Zhuang, it can be fatal. The influence of even marijuana while affecting the flow of qi (and if you manage to activate a small body orbit especially) will eventually block oxygen flow to the brain. We do not recommend any of the substances for people who stand and especially for those who do spontaneous movements.